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Thread: [Finals - Team 3 vs Team 12 Singles 1] Sanada vs Fuji

  1. #16
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member LetalHawk's Avatar
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    Re: [Finals - Team 3 vs Team 12 Singles 1] Sanada vs Fuji

    Quote Originally Posted by Fuji Shusuke View Post
    If Fuji receives my evolved 4th, 5th and 6th counter ideas, then Sanada would be crushed XD
    I don't think so, Sanada's Ka will blow Fuji, Kirin Otoshi won't work. Maybe he could return Fuu and Rin but Ka, Zan and Rai are just too much for him.

    Fuji serves with invisible serve, Sanada returns it, Fuji uses Houou Gaeshi, Sanada hits Rai and gets the point. Same thing again, Fuji can't return it. Fuji volleys the ball but Sanada hits a lob, Fuji barely returns it, he hits Ka and bam point.

    1-0 for Sanada. Then he serves, gets an ace, activates BA because he doesn't want to waste any time. Fuji gets 6-0´d and is unable to breathe.

    Fuji won't get any games from Sanada. Houhou gaeshi is useless, Sanada can return it with Fuu, Hakuryuu can be returned with Rai, Ka will break Fuji's racket when trying to do Kirin Otoshi, Rin can counter 5th counter, BA just owns Fuji. Sanada, like Tezuka, has practically a counter for everything Fuji has.
    Last edited by LetalHawk; October 16, 2012 at 08:10 AM.

  2. #17
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Fuji Shusuke's Avatar
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    Re: [Finals - Team 3 vs Team 12 Singles 1] Sanada vs Fuji

    The thing about my 5th counter idea is that you can't return it with anything.

    Instead of adding super backspin onto the ball, my idea adds a super topspin onto the ball. Then Fuji deliberately hits the net with it, and due to the topspin it rolls up the net, over to the other side then rolls down the net and onto the opponent's side without a bounce. How the fk can Sanada beat that? The instant you try to hit it, you've already fouled. This is the ultimate hax drop shot, and is also an absolute technique. It beats Zero Shiki Drop XD
    "Sorry, but I never lose to the same opponent twice." - Fuji

  3. #18
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member ashore's Avatar
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    Re: [Finals - Team 3 vs Team 12 Singles 1] Sanada vs Fuji

    good luck communicating that to the real fuji

  4. #19
    Intl Translator 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Airgrimes's Avatar
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    Re: [Finals - Team 3 vs Team 12 Singles 1] Sanada vs Fuji

    Quote Originally Posted by Fayte View Post
    Here is my argument as to why Fuji would still be unable to use Kirin Otoshi against Ka:

    Premise #1 - Ka is a ground smash that makes it a prerequisite for Fuji's Otoshi counters. This is shown when Fuji uses Higuma Otoshi against SoSA Kirihara's Ka.
    Premise #2 - Kirihara is much weaker than Sanada, thus he can not "handle that shot" with a proper execution.
    Premise #3 - Fuji has never returned a smash as powerful as a Ka (from Sanada).
    Premise #4 - Both Tachibana and Shiraishi were strong enough to smash Fuji's racquet away when Fuji tried to Higuma Otoshi.
    Premise #5 - Sanada is physically stronger than Kirihara, Tachibana, and Shiraishi.
    Premise #6 - Sanada improved.
    Premise #7 - Sanada is still too strong for Fuji to return his ground smash, even with Kirin Otoshi.
    Why should Sanada's one arm overpower Fuji's two armed Kirin Otoshi??
    Fuji isn't even hitting. He is just placing the racket above his head.
    Kirin isn't Higuma remember.
    Kirin Otoshi > Ka.

    It's not like it's been said since Nationals ''Sanada got physically stronger'' anyway.

    ---------- Post added at 09:22 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:20 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Phantron View Post
    Sanada catches up easily with Fu, hits a cord ball back on purpose

    Fuji use 6th counter
    Inui: "Nobody can possibly return that shot unless they can somehow get outside of the court instantly!"
    Sanada: "Did someone say teleport?" (Returns with Rai, blows up Fuji's racket).
    You're a Sanada-ist. To assume 6th Counter which ended PoT as perhaps the most powerful shot in the series, can be effortlessly returned with Rai.
    When the ball cannot be seen, it doesn't necessarily HAVE to land on the baseline,
    After the bounce it goes straight into the stands,
    It's invisible until it crash lands,

    Come on. Sanada is not going to shit on 6th Counter. If he returns it, it will take a while.

    ---------- Post added at 09:25 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:22 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Phantron View Post
    Sanada is in danger of blowing out his knee and desperation looms.
    Sanada remembers Rin counters all tech moves.
    Sanada wins 7-5.
    It's not like Sanada is stupid. He doesn't forget. You have misunderstood.
    Yuki didn't remind him.

    Sanada even shouts FuuRinKaZan. He doesn't like hitting Rin since it means he cannot ''Crush'' his opponent.
    Yukimura said use your other abilities so we can win this comfortably.
    Sanada wanted it to be that he destroyed Tezuka and left him in despair by head-on breaking his moves apart.

    ---------- Post added at 09:30 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:25 AM ----------

    So what...

    Does plot MAGICALLY come back into this dead argument then?
    Like how improvement suddenly vanished specifically for certain matches it's gonna come back here.
    BS.

    Either way this is as good as over. Fuji is hopeless right now.
    There are like 6-7 MSers... who will defeat Fuji right now.

    This is pointless. Sanada has won.
    Any problems people have past had in arguments should go to the Tier Discussion. Since I've seen some far-fetched stuff in this tournament.

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  6. #20
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    Re: [Finals - Team 3 vs Team 12 Singles 1] Sanada vs Fuji

    Most of Fuji's counters are hard to deal with because they got crazy trajectory except crazy trajectory is useless against someone who can teleport. When Fuji played against Hirakoba it's pointed out that using the 2nd counter to return a smash is useless if your opponent can simply teleport back to the baseline, and indeed they say the return leaves Fuji vulnerable because he can't immediately switch to a normal stance after using a counter.

    Using Shiraishi versus Fuji game you can also infer the stronger the opponent is the less they're affected at all by the 2nd counter line. When Shiraishi did a normal smash it knocked away Fuji's racket, and Fuji's return was feeble, giving Shiraishi plenty of time to do another move. While Fuji has improved, Shiraishi is certainly much weaker than Sanada in terms of physical strength. It's not even clear if Fuji can overcome Ka (can play out exactly like the game against Shiraishi) but even if he can return it cleanly, Sanada can simply use Rai and Fuji cannot return that because it's said he can't go from a counter to a normal move instantly, while Rai is of course instant.

    The only move Fuji has that'd be at all a threat to Sanada would be the 5th counter and that's only if:

    1. Sanada can't magically hit through it, even though characters on his calibur can (Tezuka).
    2. Sanada does not use Rin.

    Fuji gets at least one game by invoking the power of the genius. That's what he does. He can get a few more games off Sanada if Sanada mysteriously chooses to try to overpower the 5th counter instead of just tech his way out of it (he can lob a ball and have it land precisely on the baseline 100% of the time, so it's not like he can't do tech shots if he wanted to).

  7. #21
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member ashore's Avatar
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    Re: [Finals - Team 3 vs Team 12 Singles 1] Sanada vs Fuji

    its all subjective about if fuji get 1 point or not. but at least most are in agreement he loses.
    people could argue and reason for points over and over. these 2 players we haven't seen much action from them in the manga.

    its true as a genius he has potential to score a point or 2.
    but as good as sanada is, and not to mention he's seen fuji's counters before and he has black aura and lightning speed near teleportation, theoretically
    and subjective he can seal all of fuji's current counters with his special moves.

    only way i can see fuji scoring a point(my opinion of course) is if his well rounded tennis skills/play are better than sandada... is that he case? probably not.
    OR fuji would have to evolve during the match and make 1,2, or 3, new counters.

    sanada seems like he'd be merciless and play serious and would force fuji into a wall in a one sided match, in which case it would force fuji to evolve.

  8. #22
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Fayte's Avatar
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    Re: [Finals - Team 3 vs Team 12 Singles 1] Sanada vs Fuji

    *waves the white flag for Fuji's corner*

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  10. #23
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    Re: [Finals - Team 3 vs Team 12 Singles 1] Sanada vs Fuji

    If you remove all the special effects, it's pretty clear Tezuka, Yukimura, and Sanada are all on the same 'god' tier of rallying for MSers. That is, if any of these two started rallying with no special moves whatsoever it is possible the rally might never end. There's no indication any of those 3 can beat any other in rallying without using some kind of special move.

    Well we know Yukimura can return all special moves effortlessly in a rally. You can say maybe returning special shots is his speciality, but it's not like Tezuka or Sanada is particular weak against lesser moves. Niou, when copying Tezuka, can unconditionally return the 5th counter. No explanation is even needed. Sanada certainly can return random moves Ryoma was copying as if they're normal shots.

    So your first hurdle is from counter 1-5, it is entirely possible Sanada simply returns them unconditionally without even a need for explanation due to his god tier status in rallying.

    While the 6th counter is probably high tier of a move that it cannot be returned without explanation, there are two problems:

    1. Sanada has no tendency of hitting cord balls, which is required to set up the shot.
    2. The 6th counter seems to be hard to return due to the fact the ball actually bounces into the audience stand in some crazy trajectory. Problem is Sanada can teleport, so he can simply run up to the audience stand and return it.

    Note that Shiraishi was unconditionally returning Fuji's counters until Fuji powered up, and Shiraishi's rally skills cannot be the same tier as Sanada/Yukimura/Tezuka.

    Even if Fuji has improved his base stats such that his counters can no longer be unconditionally returned, assuming they still do similar to what they started out as, then counter 1-3 can be returned by Rai because again teleport can catch up to any kind of crazy trajectory. Counter 4 is useless because Sanada does not rely on putting spins on balls. The only possible way Fuji can win is if he powered up his 5th counter to the point it's on the same level as Tezuka Phantom, and then you get a repeat of Rai vs Tezuka Phantom. It seems pretty unlikely for 5th counter to be as hard to return as Tezuka Phantom given Tezuka, as powerful as he is, has to risk significant injury to do Phantom, while 5th counter is not known for any side effects.

    It's pretty clear the more dangerous the tech is the bigger payoff is, though of course even if Fuji can get to Phantom level of tech without inflicting significant damage, of course Sanada still has Rin, which unconditionally beats Phantom type moves and have no side effects.

    I didn't include Black Aura because Fuji has no screen time on NPOT so I'll just assume his off the screen improvement cancels out Black Aura and then some (i.e. assuming 5th counter can evolve to a point of being as strong as Phantom is a lot of improvement) since Fuji is known to make ridiculous improvements.

  11. #24
    Intl Translator 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Airgrimes's Avatar
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    Re: [Finals - Team 3 vs Team 12 Singles 1] Sanada vs Fuji

    Actually Phantron,
    After Sanada broke out of Yips at 4-1, Yukimura proceeded to take the next points to 7-1 whilst Sanada was out of Yips.
    So actually Yuki is shown to be better at rallying.
    But yeah they always have been in the same tier.

    Hold on a second, you're going to tell me that Sanada can not only use Rai to teleport around the court, but he can teleport into the audience seats?
    Are you serious? That's Sanada-ism.
    It would be okay if you were just supporting Sanada, but you've been going way out of proportion to assume he can easily return 6th Counter and teleport what would be more like 100m distance.

    6th Counter is near impossible to return. It flies up into the air in Fuji's court, so you can't catch it in the air before it rises like Hakuryuu.
    It is so high in the sky it cannot be seen at all. It vanishes from sight.
    It then causes a firework display. Making it even harder to notice the ball.
    It then crash lands randomly. Remember it cannot be predicted where it lands. Baseline or in the middle of the court or wherever.
    Once it lands, it flies straight into the audience at a ridiculous speed.

    You want to tell me Sanada will teleport into the audience, return it, then teleport back into the court to continue the rally?
    That's just pushing things way too far. It's a ridiculous assumption.

    ---------- Post added at 05:24 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:21 AM ----------

    About Fuji's ridiculous improvements, wouldn't that be linked to the plot?
    Or is it because it's about Fuji who a lot of people don't like on here is the topic that we will suddenly remove this.

  12. #25
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member ashore's Avatar
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    Re: [Finals - Team 3 vs Team 12 Singles 1] Sanada vs Fuji

    i asked this before.. how does hoshi hanabi work? fuji his a cord ball on the net the ball rolls over the net into opponent's side of the court ( on the ground) then flys up in to nowhere?

    after the ball touches the ground on the opponent's side and rises up , at that point, sanada could rush to return it. if the ball just rises on fuji's side of the court, then is projected out to the audience, that dont make sense, that would be out of bounds.

  13. #26
    Registered User 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member TheShiraishi's Avatar
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    Re: [Finals - Team 3 vs Team 12 Singles 1] Sanada vs Fuji

    Quote Originally Posted by ashore View Post
    i asked this before.. how does hoshi hanabi work? fuji his a cord ball on the net the ball rolls over the net into opponent's side of the court ( on the ground) then flys up in to nowhere?

    after the ball touches the ground on the opponent's side and rises up , at that point, sanada could rush to return it. if the ball just rises on fuji's side of the court, then is projected out to the audience, that dont make sense, that would be out of bounds.
    http://read.mangashare.com/Prince-of...4/page013.html
    http://read.mangashare.com/Prince-of...4/page014.html

    These are the the explanations we have for Hoshi Hanabi. Hoshi Hanabi is (so far, the ultimate Counter) and you guys are brushing it off like it's an easily returnable technique.

    Before you Sanadaists read this post yes I know the prerequisites for Hoshi Hanabi would make the chances of Fuji hitting a Hoshi Hanabi against Sanada very unlikely. Even so:

    http://read.mangashare.com/Prince-of...4/page012.html

    The way I see it, it crash lands at a very, very high speed. Not too good with space stuff, but the drawing of the ball is like a meteor. This leads me to believe that it's an instant technique, just like Sanada's Rai teleportation. We haven't seen him teleport into the air which means to return this he'd need to teleport out of the court and then into the stands to return it. Assuming his legs don't give out and he makes it, it would require much more power and technique than usual for Sanada to Rai it back onto the court... I mean of course it is Sanada. Not saying he can't do it.

    What I am saying is Hoshi Hanabi isn't returned just like *that*. Once the cord ball is hit, it's almost a guaranteed point. Fuji hax FTW

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  15. #27
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    Re: [Finals - Team 3 vs Team 12 Singles 1] Sanada vs Fuji

    I'm not sure why being able to teleport to where the audience is too much of a stretch given Rai is described as 'speed of light'. If you got that kind of speed it should be pretty easy to run to just about anywhere to return any shot. I mean Ryoma can run up where the ref is sitting at to do Cool Drives, and he actually has no inherent speed techs (though he is surely very fast). We know Ryoma's speed is slower than the teleport speed of the Higa guys (otherwise he'd have no reason to copy that tech against Atobe). Rai seems to be obviously another tier above Higa teleport speed, so why shouldn't you be able to run to where the audience is with that kind of speed?

    So far as ridiculous improvements go, I do not subscribe to the stuff like "Ryoma/Fuji can never lose by necessity of plot', but it's clear these two gets unusually high improvements when facing superior opponents. This is probably because they start out with lowish stats as the underdog. Compared to that, if you take say Tezuka or Sanada, they rarely start out as the underdog (Tezuka is sometimes underdog as a function of his previous injury, but never as a function of his stat against someone not in his tier) and their stats are generally far superior than anyone they face, so they rarely get any meaningful improvements. Note that prior to NPOT the improvement to Sanada/Tezuka are just 'I decided to unseal a previously forbidden tech', i.e. they didn't actually improve any. Fuji obviously improved a ton from pre semifinals, to semifinals, and finals.

    ---------- Post added at 08:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:32 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by TheShiraishi View Post
    http://read.mangashare.com/Prince-of...4/page013.html
    http://read.mangashare.com/Prince-of...4/page014.html

    These are the the explanations we have for Hoshi Hanabi. Hoshi Hanabi is (so far, the ultimate Counter) and you guys are brushing it off like it's an easily returnable technique.

    Before you Sanadaists read this post yes I know the prerequisites for Hoshi Hanabi would make the chances of Fuji hitting a Hoshi Hanabi against Sanada very unlikely. Even so:

    http://read.mangashare.com/Prince-of...4/page012.html

    The way I see it, it crash lands at a very, very high speed. Not too good with space stuff, but the drawing of the ball is like a meteor. This leads me to believe that it's an instant technique, just like Sanada's Rai teleportation. We haven't seen him teleport into the air which means to return this he'd need to teleport out of the court and then into the stands to return it. Assuming his legs don't give out and he makes it, it would require much more power and technique than usual for Sanada to Rai it back onto the court... I mean of course it is Sanada. Not saying he can't do it.

    What I am saying is Hoshi Hanabi isn't returned just like *that*. Once the cord ball is hit, it's almost a guaranteed point. Fuji hax FTW
    The problem is that Tezuka, Sanada, and Yukimura all have this inherent property of 'returning crazy shots like it's nothing'. Niou, when copying Tezuka, returned 5th counter as if it's nothing and 5th counter sure sounds like a pretty crazy shot too. You can't base on how hard a shot is return by its description because otherwise half of the shots in POT shouldn't even be returnable. How many times have you seen soandso use a technique that's said to be unreturnable and then his opponent does a power up and hit it back like it's nothing?

    While Fuji is certainly destined to be in the "Tezuka-tier", he has yet to be recognized as one of these members by someone of the Tezuka-tier and that's pretty much the only way you can get into this club. The closest recognition came from Shiraishi but again he's not a Tezuka-tier character (though he's also very close). Yes random guys are always saying how awesome he is but random guys also say one of the Fudomine fodder guy is as much a genius as Fuji, so if we buy the opinion of random guys that means Fuji must absolutely suck at tennis. I swear some random spectator must have said Kaidoh is stronger than Tezuka at some point (yeah right). The point is, you can't take the opinion of anyone outside of Tezuka-tier characters when it comes to evaluating potenital.

    While his moves certainly look Tezuka-tier worthy, someone in that tier (Yukimura, Sanada, Tezuka, and Atobe) has to formally invite him into the club or he'll always be susceptible to the 'Tezuka-tier guy return the shot like it's nothing", like the Niou vs Fuji game (and Niou's clone isn't even close to Tezuka tier honestly). Atobe got in when Yukimura interrupted the game where he just learned World of Ice, and no one else at this point has been invited to the club yet.

    And of course in the end you can just say Sanada doesn't hit cord balls on purpose so even if this shot is 100% unreturnable it'd only have a minimal impact on the game. 6th counter seems to only be developed to deal with Shiraishi who purposely hits cord balls to counter 5th counter. But if you can hit 5th counter cleanly over the net (no reason to assume Sanada can't do this), you wouldn't exactly get very many opportunities to do the 6th counter.
    Last edited by Phantron; October 17, 2012 at 08:47 PM.

  16. #28
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member ashore's Avatar
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    Re: [Finals - Team 3 vs Team 12 Singles 1] Sanada vs Fuji

    Quote Originally Posted by TheShiraishi View Post
    http://read.mangashare.com/Prince-of...4/page013.html
    http://read.mangashare.com/Prince-of...4/page014.html

    These are the the explanations we have for Hoshi Hanabi. Hoshi Hanabi is (so far, the ultimate Counter) and you guys are brushing it off like it's an easily returnable technique.

    Before you Sanadaists read this post yes I know the prerequisites for Hoshi Hanabi would make the chances of Fuji hitting a Hoshi Hanabi against Sanada very unlikely. Even so:

    http://read.mangashare.com/Prince-of...4/page012.html

    The way I see it, it crash lands at a very, very high speed. Not too good with space stuff, but the drawing of the ball is like a meteor. This leads me to believe that it's an instant technique, just like Sanada's Rai teleportation. We haven't seen him teleport into the air which means to return this he'd need to teleport out of the court and then into the stands to return it. Assuming his legs don't give out and he makes it, it would require much more power and technique than usual for Sanada to Rai it back onto the court... I mean of course it is Sanada. Not saying he can't do it.

    What I am saying is Hoshi Hanabi isn't returned just like *that*. Once the cord ball is hit, it's almost a guaranteed point. Fuji hax FTW
    the descrtiption of fuji's counter dont make sense....

    1) hits a cord ball
    2) the ball fllys instantly in the air

    WAIT: doesn't the ball have to hit on the opponents side of the court? if not its like hitting a home run out of the stadium.

    3) lands in audience...

    I missed the part where it hits on the opponent's side of the court?

  17. #29
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    Re: [Finals - Team 3 vs Team 12 Singles 1] Sanada vs Fuji

    Quote Originally Posted by ashore View Post
    the descrtiption of fuji's counter dont make sense....

    1) hits a cord ball
    2) the ball fllys instantly in the air

    WAIT: doesn't the ball have to hit on the opponents side of the court? if not its like hitting a home run out of the stadium.

    3) lands in audience...

    I missed the part where it hits on the opponent's side of the court?
    I think it's basically just a lob shot, but it picks up insane speed due to going so high in the air and gets crazy trajectory that has something to do with the wind and the fact that the shot started on a cord ball. Sounds like just an enhanced version of his third counter really, i.e. more speed + even crazier trajectory.

  18. #30
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Hardy's Avatar
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    Re: [Finals - Team 3 vs Team 12 Singles 1] Sanada vs Fuji

    Quote Originally Posted by ashore View Post
    the descrtiption of fuji's counter dont make sense....

    1) hits a cord ball
    2) the ball fllys instantly in the air

    WAIT: doesn't the ball have to hit on the opponents side of the court? if not its like hitting a home run out of the stadium.

    3) lands in audience...

    I missed the part where it hits on the opponent's side of the court?
    Fuji throws the ball high, the opponent can't see it, then the ball lands on the opponent's side and finally flys away. It's kinda like Taki's Acceleration Lob in FtST lol

    I have a question now: fuji NEEDS a cord ball in order to hit it? Is it too crazy to think that now he improved enough to hit 6th counter without a cord ball?
    Quote Originally Posted by gnut View Post
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