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View Poll Results: Who will win?

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  • Sanada Gen'ichirou

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Thread: [Finals - Team 3 vs Team 12 Singles 1] Sanada vs Fuji

  1. #46
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Fuji Shusuke's Avatar
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    Re: [Finals - Team 3 vs Team 12 Singles 1] Sanada vs Fuji

    Well Yukimura doesn't have any at-will offensive moves but I see your point.

    However about the cord ball thing, if it's an accidental cord ball, they won't be phased. However if you can repeatedly hit accurate cord balls with your eyes closed, they would be amazed.

    The thing is, is that although a cord ball is simple, it can stand up to the offensive moves the upper tier characters have. For example, Cord Ball > TZ and TP. The net cancels out the spin. Don't underestimate the power of a cord ball.
    "Sorry, but I never lose to the same opponent twice." - Fuji

  2. #47
    Intl Translator 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Airgrimes's Avatar
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    Post Re: [Finals - Team 3 vs Team 12 Singles 1] Sanada vs Fuji

    Quote Originally Posted by Phantron View Post
    If Ryoma can climb the chair the ref is sitting in to do Cool Drive, and his regular speed is at least a tier if not more below Rai, I don't see why people can't run to the audience to hit things back. It could just be something people don't do in POT on principle, but I see no inherent reason why in a series that features unfathomable feats of physical ability why getting to the audience stand is supposed to be hard for someone who can teleport.

    The 'unreturnable' property of the 6th counter is meaningless because all kinds of unreturnable shots have been returned by the Sanada tier characters without explanation. You're talking about a tier of character who can simply say they can return this shot and do it without any explanation. Fuji's tech is probably more 'unreturnable' than the usual 'unreturnable' stuff but he hasn't got into this elusive tier yet. Fuji might be the closest member to joining that elusive tier but he's still a normal guy compared to these guys right now. We see people praise Fuji for hitting cord balls. Would anyone praise Sanada or Tezuka for hitting cord balls? No they're supposed to be way beyond such trivial things.

    At any rate even if Sanada purposely hits the cord balls to setup the counter, and then turns out he actually can't return it (unlikely but still possible), it's really no different than say the paralyzation tech almost certainly would still work on Yukimura if Yukimura allows someone the setup time to do it, but it's meaningless because obviously Yukimura can prevent the tech from ever being used if he wanted to. Likewise Sanada can simply not hit cord balls.
    Ryoma climbing up a chair when he is already close to the net.

    Is THE SAME AS RUNNING THE LONG DISTANCE OF HIGH UP THE STAIRS AND HITTING A BALL BACK??
    How can you relate the two?
    One requires Ryoma no more than 5 steps.

    http://www.mangareader.net/422-27261...apter-364.html

    Look at the page. You're going to tell me Sanada will get there in time and back to the court in time?
    Why should we assume Sanada can teleport up stairs??

    By your logic, Sanada could have teleported up the mountain during Mountain Climbing then.
    I can't believe this statement.

    Sanada can teleport up stairs now. Sanada should just use Rai to from his seat to the court. Since Rai isn't fast movement over a short distance(Court) by your logic.
    It is just Standard Teleportation. If he can go far upstairs as far as Kawamura was blasted by your logic I worry what else you think of Sanada.

    ---------- Post added at 11:46 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:44 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Fuji Shusuke View Post
    Well Yukimura doesn't have any at-will offensive moves but I see your point.
    Doesn't need them.
    He can attack well enough to tear apart Ryoma prior to TnK.
    The same Ryoma that Kintaro was at stalemate against, and the one that out-lasted Atobe.

    Takes confident points from Sanada. Off the top of my head, Sanada kicks everybody's ass. No BA. We're looking at Ryoma, Atobe and Niou only touching him.
    Yuki can attack. It's not all about special shots.
    People have become confused.

    Have we seen Kimijima hit a special shot? Still No.7. Tokugawa might not even have one.

    ---------- Post added at 11:48 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:46 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Fuji Shusuke View Post
    However about the cord ball thing, if it's an accidental cord ball, they won't be phased. However if you can repeatedly hit accurate cord balls with your eyes closed, they would be amazed.

    The thing is, is that although a cord ball is simple, it can stand up to the offensive moves the upper tier characters have. For example, Cord Ball > TZ and TP. The net cancels out the spin. Don't underestimate the power of a cord ball.
    Cord Ball + Closed Eyes is beast.

    It means the opponent cannot be predicted at all. It means HJnK cannot work.
    Since you can't double return a Cord Ball you didn't expect at all.

    Closed Eyes breaks SKnK too.
    So its the combination of Cord Ball and Closed Eyes that takes out TP and TZ.

    Cord Ball + Closed Eyes > TZ & TP.

  3. #48
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
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    Re: [Finals - Team 3 vs Team 12 Singles 1] Sanada vs Fuji

    Quote Originally Posted by Fuji Shusuke View Post
    Well Yukimura doesn't have any at-will offensive moves but I see your point.

    However about the cord ball thing, if it's an accidental cord ball, they won't be phased. However if you can repeatedly hit accurate cord balls with your eyes closed, they would be amazed.

    The thing is, is that although a cord ball is simple, it can stand up to the offensive moves the upper tier characters have. For example, Cord Ball > TZ and TP. The net cancels out the spin. Don't underestimate the power of a cord ball.
    Yukimura's normal rallies are comparable to most special moves when he's serious.

    I'm sure there are things the top tier characters can't do, but it's just not relevent. As described, Byodouin almost certainly can't do Magic Volley either, but it's not like he'd care. It might be amazing feat but it's not particularly useful in terms of scoring points off these super powerful characters.

    TP has some weird interaction with drop shot types, but it's not like Tezuka can't just run up to the net to return it. He does that all the time doing ZSS, and he can return ZSS which is strictly a harder shot to return than a cord ball. A cord ball is at best an annoying shot to return for the Sanada tier characters. Maybe you can use it at a critical time and take them by surprise to get a point or two, but there's no way a cord ball is going to be an effective move to be used repeatedly against these guys.

    ---------- Post added at 01:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:58 PM ----------

    I'm really not seeing why given all the absurd things people can do in POT why running to the stairs to hit something when you're said to be moving at the speed of light is even that impressive. I don't expect such a scene to actually play out that way but there's nothing stopping Sanada from doing that.

    Kamikakushi is said to be impossible to see too and then Yukimura can see it just fine by saying 'the ball doesn't disappear'. It's not even a 'I predicted the path' thing, the way he returns it implies he can clearly see what ought to be an invisible tech. So I'm not sure why people are obsessed with the alleged unreturnable properties of the 6th counter. It sounds more impressive than your average unreturnable shot but even the Zero Serve has been returned before and Zero Serve sure sounds way harder to return than 6th counter. No it's not clear to me why Rai + Rin + Ka can return a serve that doesn't bounce, but if you can return a serve that outright violates the laws of physics, why is the 6th counter hard to return?

  4. #49
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    Re: [Finals - Team 3 vs Team 12 Singles 1] Sanada vs Fuji

    @Phantron,
    Actually Tezuka isn't fast. And Tezuka!Niou was raped by Closed Eyes + Cord Ball.

    Sanada has Rai. So whilst he cannot see the Cord Ball coming due to Closed Eyes, he can teleport their and destroy it.

    I think its implied Yukimura is quick. Not a problem.

    Atobe and Tezuka won't see it coming. Physically, I don't see them being quick nor strong at all.
    Tezuka!Niou was destroyed by Closed Eyes + Cord Ball. Serious damage lol. He had to become Shiraishi!Niou.

  5. #50
    MangaHelper 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Kaoz's Avatar
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    Re: [Finals - Team 3 vs Team 12 Singles 1] Sanada vs Fuji

    ZSD is probably easier to return than Fuji's aimed cord balls. The latter drop right behind the net, whereas the former is much closer to the service line. Can't be bothered to search for pages atm.

  6. #51
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
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    Re: [Finals - Team 3 vs Team 12 Singles 1] Sanada vs Fuji

    But even Fuji said the real Tezuka is much stronger than Niou's cloned version so I don't see why Niou getting destroyed implies Tezuka wouldn't be able to handle it.

    I know neither Tezuka nor Atobe is actually all that fast, but both appears to be able to show up anywhere on the court to save any shot. Neither character has ever shown problem handling cord balls.

    I should clarify a bit by consistent with physics. Almost all shots in POT are consistent with POT universe physics. Inui can tell you why every one of Fuji's counters is physically possible. However Inui cannot provide a POT physics explanation for:

    1. TnK.
    2. Why playing tennis against Yukimura causes yips.
    3. Why Sanada can move at the speed of light.
    4. Why the ZSD/Zero Serve doesn't bounce
    5. Why Atobe can see icicles forming in thin air to pinpoint your blind spot

    I guess you can say Closed Eyes cannot be explained by POT physics (though Fuwa played blindfolded just fine, and he wasn't anyone special) but Fuji ultimately fell back to the 6th counter, which is a physically possible shot in POT, so for whatever reason, Closed Eyes can't be considered his trump card and yet all physically possible shots just don't work well against guys who have physically impossible techniques.

    ---------- Post added at 01:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:23 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaoz View Post
    ZSD is probably easier to return than Fuji's aimed cord balls. The latter drop right behind the net, whereas the former is much closer to the service line. Can't be bothered to search for pages atm.
    This is one area you've to go by the story as opposed to anything real life might tell you. Throughout the story we're told ZSD is very hard to return, even by some extremely powerful players (Atobe and Sanada). There are plenty of no-name guys who can hit cord balls that are returned by similarly no name guys. Unless there's a higher tier of cord ball (possible, but no such indication exists) the cord ball just isn't that strong. Ryoma was playing some cannon fodder from Midoriyama who accidentally hit a cord ball, and then Ryoma hit a cord ball exactly the same way on purpose, and that was before he even learned Muga.

    While it's pretty futile to try to come up with an explanation to this, I'd assume the reason why ZSD is hard to return is not the distance it travels but the fact that it doesn't bounce. We've seen plenty of example of people basically scooping up a shot if it had even a minimal amount of bounce. A cord ball obviously will bounce so plenty of people can save it, but ZSD does not bounce. In terms of difficulty to return in POT, it's almost certainly no bounce (ZSD) > irregular bounce (cool drive) > minimal bounce (cord ball).

  7. #52
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Fuji Shusuke's Avatar
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    Re: [Finals - Team 3 vs Team 12 Singles 1] Sanada vs Fuji

    Quote Originally Posted by Phantron View Post
    I should clarify a bit by consistent with physics. Almost all shots in POT are consistent with POT universe physics. Inui can tell you why every one of Fuji's counters is physically possible. However Inui cannot provide a POT physics explanation for:

    1. TnK.
    2. Why playing tennis against Yukimura causes yips.
    3. Why Sanada can move at the speed of light.
    4. Why the ZSD/Zero Serve doesn't bounce
    5. Why Atobe can see icicles forming in thin air to pinpoint your blind spot
    Inui can't explain everything. Other players have explained stuff when Inui didn't.
    TnK is a rare aura, Inui's never experienced it before. Nanjirou provided the explanation. You also said "almost all shots", TnK is not a shot, it's an aura.
    Tooyama and Shiraishi clarified the Yips. The image of the ball being returned no matter what constantly appears in your head and eventually you develop a fear of hitting the ball. The fear slowly strips away the senses.
    Yukimura explained that Rai is a godlike technique which allows the player to move at superhuman speeds.
    ZSD doesn't bounce due to low power and high backspin.
    Atobe has supreme eyesight which allows him to spot blind spots. Atobe visualises the ice crystals in his mind. Again, not a shot.

    ---------- Post added at 03:08 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:02 AM ----------

    About Cord Ball vs ZSD, with ZSD you know it's a drop shot the instant it leaves Tezuka's racquet. You don't know if a shot is going to be a cord ball until it hits the net. Cord Ball gives less reaction time than ZSD.

    I'm starting to think that Fuji will win a couple of games off Sanada.
    "Sorry, but I never lose to the same opponent twice." - Fuji

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  9. #53
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
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    Re: [Finals - Team 3 vs Team 12 Singles 1] Sanada vs Fuji

    Quote Originally Posted by Fuji Shusuke View Post
    Inui can't explain everything. Other players have explained stuff when Inui didn't.
    TnK is a rare aura, Inui's never experienced it before. Nanjirou provided the explanation. You also said "almost all shots", TnK is not a shot, it's an aura.
    Tooyama and Shiraishi clarified the Yips. The image of the ball being returned no matter what constantly appears in your head and eventually you develop a fear of hitting the ball. The fear slowly strips away the senses.
    Yukimura explained that Rai is a godlike technique which allows the player to move at superhuman speeds.
    ZSD doesn't bounce due to low power and high backspin.
    Atobe has supreme eyesight which allows him to spot blind spots. Atobe visualises the ice crystals in his mind. Again, not a shot.

    ---------- Post added at 03:08 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:02 AM ----------

    About Cord Ball vs ZSD, with ZSD you know it's a drop shot the instant it leaves Tezuka's racquet. You don't know if a shot is going to be a cord ball until it hits the net. Cord Ball gives less reaction time than ZSD.

    I'm starting to think that Fuji will win a couple of games off Sanada.
    All techniques obviously have to have some kind of explanation but in the case of Fuji (and just about everyone else), you usually have a 'here's how you can do it' explanation. No matter how unplausible, it's implied if you start reading wind charts you too can hit the same shots as Fuji. If your arm is intrinisically as flexible as Jirou you can do the Magic Volley. If you hit the ball hard enough you too can do Hado 108.

    In the case of Rai the explanation is that it's a godlike technique that involves moving at the speed of light. How does one move at the speed of light? No one knows. Yips is created by prolonged rally, so why does Yukimura's rally creates this and no one else? No one knows. Atobe's techs are a result of his immense perception, so how does one get such perception? No one knows. Why does the ZSD/ZSS not bounce? Presumably because Tezuka puts crazy spin on it. What's different about the crazy spin Tezuka uses compared to the normal crazy spins that abound in POT? No one knows.

    I'd say Fuji is still within the realm of data tennis, in the sense that if you have some absolutely insane amount of information and just start writing down everything that makes Fuji, you can eventually do everything Fuji can do minus Closed Eyes. I really don't see how you can possibly do this for Rai or yips or Atobe Kingdom.

  10. #54
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Hardy's Avatar
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    Re: [Finals - Team 3 vs Team 12 Singles 1] Sanada vs Fuji

    Quote Originally Posted by Fuji Shusuke View Post
    I'm starting to think that Fuji will win a couple of games off Sanada.
    Come on man believe in your character, lol. I made Sengoku look almost good against Hirakoba. I could even make Kikumaru win some games here

    Fuji could even WIN against Sanada, they are both top tier players, it's not too crazy to think that he may win. Sanada has the upper hand, yes, but no one answered my 2 questions yet...

    Again, Fuji really needs a cord ball to do 6th counter? If yes: is it too improbable that he has improved enough to be able to do 6th counter without the cord ball?

  11. #55
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Fuji Shusuke's Avatar
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    Re: [Finals - Team 3 vs Team 12 Singles 1] Sanada vs Fuji

    Quote Originally Posted by Eiji Kikumaru View Post
    Come on man believe in your character, lol. I made Sengoku look almost good against Hirakoba. I could even make Kikumaru win some games here

    Fuji could even WIN against Sanada, they are both top tier players, it's not too crazy to think that he may win. Sanada has the upper hand, yes, but no one answered my 2 questions yet...

    Again, Fuji really needs a cord ball to do 6th counter? If yes: is it too improbable that he has improved enough to be able to do 6th counter without the cord ball?
    Cord ball is a requirement. He might have learnt how to do it. In the second movie (I know it's non-canon), he did it without a cord ball.

    ---------- Post added at 03:36 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:35 AM ----------

    Awaiting results in 24 minutes XD
    "Sorry, but I never lose to the same opponent twice." - Fuji

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  13. #56
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    Re: [Finals - Team 3 vs Team 12 Singles 1] Sanada vs Fuji

    Ok let's spam Fuji Pages then, before Kaoz closes this:





    Spoiler show


    Go Fuji, the genius without limits!

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  15. #57
    MangaHelper 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Kaoz's Avatar
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    Re: [Finals - Team 3 vs Team 12 Singles 1] Sanada vs Fuji

    Sanada Gen'ichirou: 7 votes
    Fuji Shuusuke: 5 votes

    Winner: Sanada Gen'ichirou

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