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View Poll Results: Were Senju necessary?

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  • Yes

    9 45.00%
  • No

    7 35.00%
  • Uchihas are superior either way, why bother?

    4 20.00%
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Thread: Were Senju necessary?

  1. #16
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member darkprince0521's Avatar
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    Re: Were Senju necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by chilibun View Post
    Mito, Kushina, Nagato, Naruto are anomalies too. Mito and Kushina were born with special chakra and thus were selected to be the Kyuubi host. Nagato is blessed with the Rinnegan given to him by Madara. Naruto is just Jesus and can do no wrong. Karin is Uzumaki as well and she is crap.
    the Uzumaki shown in the manga; Mito, Kushina, Naruto, Nagato, Karin; all have special chakra. three of them were automatic choice as host. they aren't exception, they are example of general trend in Uzumaki clan. Nagato was given set of eyes, but there is a reason he was chosen. you cannot show anyone not having special chakra in Uzumaki clan among all who appeared in manga. as for Senju clan, Hashirama certainly was an exception. you can say how bad it is as a plot, but that's a different issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by chilibun View Post
    The Senjus and Uzumaki's are almost exactly the same thing as they share the same lineage. "Senju" and "Uzumaki" is just a name, like one taking the father's surname instead of the mothers. The genetic traits are still traced to the same Senju before the split. If anything Senjus are even more generally gifted as their clan dominated their era, while the Uzumaki's got wiped out. The only thing Uzumaki's had over Senjus are maybe the longetivity thing. There have only been 3 known Senjus and they are all Hokages, with Hashirama being the most powerful character not including the sage. Its hard to argue that they are not as blessed as Uzumakis as you seem to suggest.
    that's what this thread is all about. "The Senjus and Uzumaki's are almost exactly the same thing".

    as for Senju becoming Hokage; they were strongest among Senju. no one with special ability except Hashirama. being Hokage doesn't meet the answer this thread is seeking. we have seen just as strong or stronger no-clan people. Minato, Jiraiya, Orochimaru etc.
    Last edited by darkprince0521; October 18, 2012 at 09:01 PM.

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  3. #17
    MangaHelper 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member zimbardo's Avatar
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    Re: Were Senju necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by chilibun View Post
    Karin is Uzumaki as well and she is crap.
    Except for her awesome S&M healing chakra, or her awesome sensing ability...

    Why is there no award for most enraged?!?

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  5. #18
    MH's Best Reviewer MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Jammin's Avatar
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    Re: Were Senju necessary?

    Spoiler: I feel that poll question can only be answered in one way. show


    ---------------------------------------------------------

    But to give a(slightly) more sane answer...

    I don't think there is much doubt at this point that the Senju got genetically screwed over but really I don't view that as an inherent thing so much as I do a result of powers just unendingly being heaped onto the Uchiha clan and the price tags attached to those powers completely removed.

    Originally, the Senju had lower benefits at no cost while the Uchiha had high benefits and a high cost. "The greater the Jutsu the greater the risk" remember that? Because I'm pretty sure Kishimoto doesn't, and that's really the problem with the two groups relative to one another.

    As for whether or not they were necessary in a narrative sense. I would say "no"; because they are a part of the Rikudou Sennin plot thread and I've come to view that whole thread as not only unnecessary but a detrimental misstep in the overall story. A terrible side effect of elevating the importance of those two clans was minimizing the importance of other clans, the Hyuuga Clan for example, and I'm not a fan of that.
    Last edited by Jammin; October 24, 2012 at 03:52 PM.
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  7. #19
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
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    Re: Were Senju necessary?

    Well, the Senju are needed, but only because last 1/3 of Naruto revolves around Hashirama's spooge.

    But regardless, it really shits all over what Naruto was about in part 1, where he was fighting against Neji's idea of destiny and a chosen clan, or family bloodline. All that's thrown out the window now...

    I can still read and like Naruto, but I try not to take the plot too seriously. That way, I can enjoy it
    Last edited by Cyrs; October 19, 2012 at 01:34 AM.

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  9. #20
    MH Senpai 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Uchiha_Blood's Avatar
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    Re: Were Senju necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by chilibun View Post
    Mito, Kushina, Nagato, Naruto are anomalies too. Mito and Kushina were born with special chakra and thus were selected to be the Kyuubi host. Nagato is blessed with the Rinnegan given to him by Madara. Naruto is just Jesus and can do no wrong. Karin is Uzumaki as well and she is crap.

    The Senjus and Uzumaki's are almost exactly the same thing as they share the same lineage. "Senju" and "Uzumaki" is just a name, like one taking the father's surname instead of the mothers. The genetic traits are still traced to the same Senju before the split. If anything Senjus are even more generally gifted as their clan dominated their era, while the Uzumaki's got wiped out. The only thing Uzumaki's had over Senjus are maybe the longetivity thing. There have only been 3 known Senjus and they are all Hokages, with Hashirama being the most powerful character not including the sage. Its hard to argue that they are not as blessed as Uzumakis as you seem to suggest.
    Darkprince0521 mostly said what I wanted to say, you see every single Uzumaki introduced having a special chakra/body/genetic trait etc.
    It isn't a matter of strenght, its a matter of passed down abilities:

    the only "body-like" ability Senju got from the sage is ( from what we saw about Senjus ) a larger chakra pool.
    Uzumakis are given special chakra, way larger chakra pools, longevity, great stamina and vitality.

    And its not even a family thing, since Nagato, Mito, Karin and Naruto/Kushina aren't even related, as far as we know.
    Also, as the premise says, Hashirama is not counted as a normal Senju, because he wasnt:
    he was an anomaly, with abilities no Senju displayed after if not through imitation

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrs View Post
    Well, the Senju are needed, but only because last 1/3 of Naruto revolves around Hashirama's spooge.

    But regardless, it really shits all over what Naruto was about in part 1, where he was fighting against Neji's idea of destiny and a chosen clan, or family bloodline. All that's thrown out the window now...

    I can still read and like Naruto, but I try not to take the plot too seriously. That way, I can enjoy it
    I guess 13 years old Neji was right

  10. #21
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member chilibun's Avatar
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    Re: Were Senju necessary?

    Except again, Mito, Kushina, Nagato, Naruto, and even Karin are anomalies. Mito and Kushina possessed "special" chakra for containing the Kyuubi. It is not the norm. Nothing says Nagato is all that special, especially without his Madara given Rinnegan powers. You give those eyes to almost anybody, and they would be nearly just powerful. Heck, I would take Tsunada with Rinnegan over Nagato anyday. Karin possessed some healing chakra, but again that is not the Uzumaki norm. Naruto possessed no special traits, other than having unlimited amounts of it. He does not possess "special" chakra that made him a great host for the Kyuubi. And even then, he is an anomaly because he is Jesus reborn.

    Fact is, for all those special abilities seen on Uzumakis, we don't know if Senju's randomly acquired the similar bodily gifts. We literally only know about 3 of them. 2 actually, since we don't even know much about Tobirama. Hashirama is the epitome of bodily powers and Tsunada is a physical and chakra beast. Hell, Tsunada is even part Uzumaki so you can't even use her to represent just the Senjus. All things considered, I fail to see how there is any evidence that suggest Senjus are not just as gifted as Uzumakis, if not more. We only know 2 or 3 identifiable Senjus and they are just as good, with Hashirama being a God.

    Whether Senjus or Uzumakis better inherited sages body doesn't even matter as they both follow the same bloodline. "Senju" and "Uzumaki" is just a name. They both share the same genetic lineage to the sages younger son. Its like Naruto reproducing and forming the Namikaze clan. It doesn't make them any less Uzumaki or Senju, in terms of genetic lineage. Even the Kin and Gin bros are said (at least rumored) to be descendants of Rikudou because they possessed special chakra compatible with the Kyuubi and they are neither Senju or Uzumaki, in name anyways.
    Last edited by chilibun; October 19, 2012 at 06:50 AM.

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  12. #22
    Banned 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
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    Re: Were Senju necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by chilibun View Post
    Except again, Mito, Kushina, Nagato, Naruto, and even Karin are anomalies. Mito and Kushina possessed "special" chakra for containing the Kyuubi. It is not the norm. Nothing says Nagato is all that special, especially without his Madara given Rinnegan powers. You give those eyes to almost anybody, and they would be nearly just powerful. Heck, I would take Tsunada with Rinnegan over Nagato anyday. Karin possessed some healing chakra, but again that is not the Uzumaki norm. Naruto possessed no special traits, other than having unlimited amounts of it. He does not possess "special" chakra that made him a great host for the Kyuubi. And even then, he is an anomaly because he is Jesus reborn.
    The question is if Tsunade would handle Rinnegan. Rinnegan can be used by people from Senju bloodline. Eyes without Senju bloodline= Sharingan, eyes with Senju bloodline=Rinnegan, Senju bloodline alone is just lots of chakra and Hashirama had Mokuton, which is hax.

  13. #23
    MH Senpai 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Uchiha_Blood's Avatar
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    Re: Were Senju necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by chilibun View Post
    Except again, Mito, Kushina, Nagato, Naruto, and even Karin are anomalies. Mito and Kushina possessed "special" chakra for containing the Kyuubi. It is not the norm. Nothing says Nagato is all that special, especially without his Madara given Rinnegan powers. You give those eyes to almost anybody, and they would be nearly just powerful. Heck, I would take Tsunada with Rinnegan over Nagato anyday. Karin possessed some healing chakra, but again that is not the Uzumaki norm. Naruto possessed no special traits, other than having unlimited amounts of it. He does not possess "special" chakra that made him a great host for the Kyuubi. And even then, he is an anomaly because he is Jesus reborn.

    Fact is, for all those special abilities seen on Uzumakis, we don't know if Senju's randomly acquired the similar bodily gifts. We literally only know about 3 of them. 2 actually, since we don't even know much about Tobirama. Hashirama is the epitome of bodily powers and Tsunada is a physical and chakra beast. Hell, Tsunada is even part Uzumaki so you can't even use her to represent just the Senjus. All things considered, I fail to see how there is any evidence that suggest Senjus are not just as gifted as Uzumakis, if not more. We only know 2 or 3 identifiable Senjus and they are just as good, with Hashirama being a God.

    Whether Senjus or Uzumakis better inherited sages body doesn't even matter as they both follow the same bloodline. "Senju" and "Uzumaki" is just a name. They both share the same genetic lineage to the sages younger son. Its like Naruto reproducing and forming the Namikaze clan. It doesn't make them any less Uzumaki or Senju, in terms of genetic lineage. Even the Kin and Gin bros are said (at least rumored) to be descendants of Rikudou because they possessed special chakra compatible with the Kyuubi and they are neither Senju or Uzumaki, in name anyways.
    Go back at what Kabuto said, Karin's trait was an Uzumaki trait.
    Examples? Kushina surviving the Kyuubi extraction or Naruto being able to regenerate his wounds despite having Kyuubi's chakra blocked by Orochimaru.

    Nagato was chosen by Madara Uchiha to host his Rin'negan, and even then he showed an immense chakra pool which isn't the result of the Rin'negan.
    Naruto as well was said to have a special chakra capable of suppressing Kyuubi ( the whole Yamato talk ), there is a reason as to why only Uzumakis are chosen to host it:
    in Naruto's case it was a necessity, but Mito first and Kushina later were chosen.

    Tsunade's perks are the result of jutsus, not her own genetical traits:
    her super strenght is a jutsu, her regeneration power is a jutsu, and even then it isn't even something exclusive to her, since Sakura and Kabuto showed the first and the latter trait as well.

    Again I'm not talking about strenght, I'm talking about gifts.
    I'll copy/paste that part for you:

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    Senju
    -Bigger than average chakra reserves
    -Talent

    This basically makes them equals to non-Sharingan Uchihas ( remember Sasuke? Above average chakra reserves and outstanding talent ), which makes them good, great ninjas, but nothing more.
    Hardly someone discending from Rikudou Sennin.

    Now let's take a look at Uzumakis:
    -Bigger than average chakra reserves ( Naruto, Nagato, Kushina, Mito )
    -Incredible longevity/vitality
    -Incredible stamina
    -Special kind of chakra ( Karin, Naruto, Kushina, Mito )
    -Body capable of withstanding and housing tailed beasts ( Naruto, Kushina, Mito )
    It matters, because Senju were introduced as the direct descendants of Rikudou, and then cast away with the only exception of Hashirama, which, again, was an anomaly, since he showed traits no other Senju showed, while we can trace Uzumaki's traits in more than one character.
    Would you consider Hyuugas ( should they be related to Rikudou as well ) as equals to Uchihas?
    No, you wouldn't. No one would.

    Simply, Senju are treated like they were Hyuugas, the non-important cousins, while Uzumakis are trated like Uchihas, the true descendants of the Sage.
    One can agree or disagree, but the manga focuses way more on Uzumakis than on Senjus ( again, outside Hashirama ).

  14. #24
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member marshall313's Avatar
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    Re: Were Senju necessary?

    I agree.

    The direct descendant of the sage are the uchiha and uzumaki.

    Eye power vs the amazing life force.

    Maybe hashirama is half senju and half uzumaki? And he's the true pinnacle or the most gifted ninja of the uzumaki clan?

    If tobi isnt lying, that the youngest son is the true successor of the sage, then it means that the youngest son must have the clan symbol just like the sage. So it must be the uzumaki. Because the uzumaki clans symbol is almost the same as the sage.

  15. #25
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted xXan's Avatar
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    Re: Were Senju necessary?

    Senju and Uzumaki should be the same in chakra/body and so on. Its just that aparently Kishi focused on the Uzumaki as well... The main caracter is Uzumaki. Perhaps when he is done with Naruto we get a Gaiden with the war Senju/Uchiha.

  16. #26
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member EMS's Avatar
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    Re: Were Senju necessary?

    uchiha_blood, i agree with you, senju wasn't not necessary, kishi got senju all high up because of one clan member(hashirama) but he was the only one to had a Kekkei Genkai(Mokuton Creation ) and beside him there isn't nobody really special, 2nd hokage could be included in an exception, he was the creator of Edo Tensei but after that we found nothing of senju members while uchiha's could use their Mangekyo Sharingan and spam izanagi and defeat their enemy so i don't see how senju could handled uchiha in the first place and i mean if madara and hashirama were fighting, they will neutralize themselves and the rest of uchiha could own the senju, kishi build up senju so high.
    At this moment hashirama's cell(senju), are the dream drug but guess what isn't senju bloodline but hashirama's blood so senju are nothing special..

  17. #27
    Registered User 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member
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    Re: Were Senju necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    Tsunade's perks are the result of jutsus, not her own genetical traits:
    her super strenght is a jutsu, her regeneration power is a jutsu, and even then it isn't even something exclusive to her, since Sakura and Kabuto showed the first and the latter trait as well.
    Given that Tsunade is the first's granddaughter, wouldn't that make her Mito's granddaughter as well, and thus at least a quarter Uzumaki? (And that's even before the current chapter which suggests that Uzumaki and Senju are at best recent forks of the same bloodline.)

  18. #28
    MH Senpai 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Uchiha_Blood's Avatar
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    Re: Were Senju necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by marshall313 View Post
    I agree.

    The direct descendant of the sage are the uchiha and uzumaki.

    Eye power vs the amazing life force.

    Maybe hashirama is half senju and half uzumaki? And he's the true pinnacle or the most gifted ninja of the uzumaki clan?

    If tobi isnt lying, that the youngest son is the true successor of the sage, then it means that the youngest son must have the clan symbol just like the sage. So it must be the uzumaki. Because the uzumaki clans symbol is almost the same as the sage.
    Let's not go too far, Hashirama was a senju, and Uzumakis are related to them.
    Problem being, why the cousins are better than the "pure" lineage.

    It would be like Neji's Byakugan rapestorming Sasuke's Sharingan

    Quote Originally Posted by EMS View Post
    uchiha_blood, i agree with you, senju wasn't not necessary, kishi got senju all high up because of one clan member(hashirama) but he was the only one to had a Kekkei Genkai(Mokuton Creation ) and beside him there isn't nobody really special, 2nd hokage could be included in an exception, he was the creator of Edo Tensei but after that we found nothing of senju members while uchiha's could use their Mangekyo Sharingan and spam izanagi and defeat their enemy so i don't see how senju could handled uchiha in the first place and i mean if madara and hashirama were fighting, they will neutralize themselves and the rest of uchiha could own the senju, kishi build up senju so high.
    At this moment hashirama's cell(senju), are the dream drug but guess what isn't senju bloodline but hashirama's blood so senju are nothing special..
    Kishi gave them talent ( all Senjus displayed in the manga or in the databooks are awesome at inventing jutsu ) and nothing more other than higher chakra reserves, while Uzumaki got all kind of gifts plus a body being able to withstand Bijuus.
    Basically the body of Rikudou.
    Which should be bull, since the direct descendants, as far as the manga goes, are the Senjus

    Quote Originally Posted by Garvan View Post
    Given that Tsunade is the first's granddaughter, wouldn't that make her Mito's granddaughter as well, and thus at least a quarter Uzumaki? (And that's even before the current chapter which suggests that Uzumaki and Senju are at best recent forks of the same bloodline.)
    Yep

  19. #29
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member shahdan's Avatar
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    Re: Were Senju necessary?

    I am going to go out on a limb here and call this poor writing on Kishimoto's part. At first we were introduced with two brothers and their descendents that directly connect with Madara Uchiha and Hashirama Senju. Uchihas' being the offspring of the older brother, were gifted with the eyes and high Chakra (Spiritual energy) levels. Senju line connected with the younger, who received the sage's Stamina (Spiritual and bodily energy) and his will. Now when Kishimoto introduced the goofy and unimpressive hero Naruto, he forgot to make a mental note that 'this is a shonen manga, and Naruto will have to be Sage and the ultimate fairytale saviour in the future'. Now he is just confused as to what he would do with Uzumaki blood-line.

    It was never suggested in the beginning that this clan was even a part of the bigger picture; the whole Senju and Uchiha rivalry. All of a sudden, they became distant cousins and now they're the same thing? It's just kishimoto grasping desperately at straws to try and make Naruto fit into the Sage's bloodline. If Uzumaki were meant to be the true descenders then the original cousin statement is blatantly false. If the cousin statement is upheld, then the current 'they are one and the same' logic makes as little sense as things behind my finger nails. What is this guy thinking? Supremely poor writing.

  20. #30
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member synapse's Avatar
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    Re: Were Senju necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by shahdan View Post
    I am going to go out on a limb here and call this poor writing on Kishimoto's part. At first we were introduced with two brothers and their descendents that directly connect with Madara Uchiha and Hashirama Senju. Uchihas' being the offspring of the older brother, were gifted with the eyes and high Chakra (Spiritual energy) levels. Senju line connected with the younger, who received the sage's Stamina (Spiritual and bodily energy) and his will. Now when Kishimoto introduced the goofy and unimpressive hero Naruto, he forgot to make a mental note that 'this is a shonen manga, and Naruto will have to be Sage and the ultimate fairytale saviour in the future'. Now he is just confused as to what he would do with Uzumaki blood-line.

    It was never suggested in the beginning that this clan was even a part of the bigger picture; the whole Senju and Uchiha rivalry. All of a sudden, they became distant cousins and now they're the same thing? It's just kishimoto grasping desperately at straws to try and make Naruto fit into the Sage's bloodline. If Uzumaki were meant to be the true descenders then the original cousin statement is blatantly false. If the cousin statement is upheld, then the current 'they are one and the same' logic makes as little sense as things behind my finger nails. What is this guy thinking? Supremely poor writing.
    Not completely sure what you're saying about Uzumakis' status, but if you're implying like others before that Senju are closer in lineage to the RS than Uzumaki then its a baseless claim.

    Theres no evidence to say Senju are "directly" descended from the RS and the Uzumaki are a tangential lineage etc etc. Senju and Uzumaki are descended from the younger son of the RS, this is all we can say for sure.

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