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Thread: Ginjo VS Zaraki Kenpachi

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    Re: Ginjo VS Zaraki Kenpachi

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    I don't think imagination was yukio's limitation in his fight against the captains. Trapping them in those dimensions by no means made him win either. As far as we saw nothing about rukio was actually exceptional in the end. He threw everything he had against hitsugaya which included missiles, traps and an army of monsters and even then nothing was actually strong enough to even scratch hitsugaya. Yukio had a cool ability but he plainly didn't have the power to deal with a proper captain level enemy. He even attempted to destroy the dimension renji was in and even then he escaped relatively unscathed and I really cannot imagine yukio doing something more dangerous than having a dimension implode on someone. More so, even the supposedly indestructible dimension ichigo was on was easily destroyed by ichigo from within. If the other dimensions were like that then I don't quite see any particular reason for the captains to be unable to break them if they feel like it. Yukio didn't lack creativity, he lacked power.

    I don't think kirge was all that strong to be honest. He was outclassed by shikai ichigo in his base form and his volstandig was utterly outclassed by ichigo's bankai. I don't think kirge would have won against any of the captains. While ichigo won with speed against him, the captains would have simply overwhelmed him with other traits their bankais have.

    While I do agree in that ichigo is certainly stronger than before, I don't think he would be as strong as you say. What evidence is there that he really did get such a boost? His shikai for some reason (perhaps the restricting reiatsu medal) was substandard after the SS arc (shikai ichigo as a whole could not keep up with grimmjow, ulquiorra or even dodorni). The way I see it ichigo now simply lives up to what should be expected of a captain level shinigami with shikai and bankai (he lacks a mask boost nowadays too). Even what he did against juhabach does not suggest such an insane power level considering juhabach did subdue him quite easily and ichigo only got a hit on him because juhabach was surprised by ichigo's new found blutz.

    As for the royal guard punching him, there is the consideration that we have no idea whatsoever of how strong the punch was meant to be to begin with. Do we know for a fact that the punch had the full might of his reiatsu behind it? Is that guys' specialty hand to hand combat for that matter? All we know about the punch is that it would have killed ichigo had he still been hurt but that does not say much. Even renji was able to take the punch which suggests the punches were being held back a decent bit or that they were not that dangerous to begin with (although I lean towards the coherent holding back as renji is not even a captain level shinigami)

    Now, on the matter of ginjo, I don't see how he was equal to ichigo at all. Shikai is one thing but when the fight got to the bankai level ginjo was definitely and utterly outclassed. Even if grimmjow was even with shikai ichigo his bankai boost by no means lives up to an actual bankai. Zaraki was able to fight with 2 consecutive captains with the eyepatch on and he was able to fight evenly with sealed nnoitora with his eyepatch on too. I don't see how ginjo with a pseudo bankai would win against kenpachi without his eyepatch on and even less if kenpachi bothers with using kendo (which one shotted a espada even though kenpachi was weak to begin with).
    Actually Yukio was a moron. He could have made it so that he trapped Toshiro in another space altogether but he took him to the same space he was in.

    The captain lvl fighters constantly wondered how there are gonna get out (specifically Toshiro). Toshiro was looking for a way to get out (meaning that Yukio lacking power arguement is not at all true). He lacked imagination is more true than lacking power.

    Kirge was that strong. He doesn't have to display huge lvl attacks for you to realise that (afterall the quincies never displayed huge lvl attacks in the first place).
    He can absorb not just spirit particles but actual beings themselves. Allon was a victim of this & Orhihime plus Chad were close to being a victim of this too (until Ichigo saved them). Have Byakuya attack with his bankai & it would be absorbed by Kirge.
    Just because Ichigo stopped him doesn't mean other captains can.

    Ichigo is older & much much stronger. What he lacked a massive experience. In SS arc he was more than capable of one shotting Byakuya with ease (that ain't no small feat). I can't believe you mentioned his performance after the SS arc (I honesly can't believe it). Not only did he have the problems he carried from the SS arc, he also had more control problems, despair, anxiety & resently we found out that his reiatsu was also restricted by Ukitake. If he was at all power, we wouldn't see Grimmjow's butt in 3 fights.

    He was equal to Shikai Ichigo (who is above most people). That's mre than enough to hype his power. Stop using Grimmjow's example because he fought a much much weaker Ichigo.

    Zaraki would have lost against both captains if the intended it. Tousen casually walked to Zaraki in bankai (he wanted to teach him fear). He could have simply thrusted his sword at his throat.

    komamura never even fought Zaraki probably. A bankai fight & Zaraki would get his butt kicked.

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    Re: Ginjo VS Zaraki Kenpachi

    1. I'm writing this from my Boone which why I can elaborate the way I want to dissect you weak arguments.
    2. I don't even want to as your a hard going Bleach follower a manga that has turned crappy and mis conceptualize what really goes down.
    3. Faulty contradictory arguments on your behalf...I read both manga and watched Anime. Even while Arcs because they make so much more sense with the full picture.
    4. Ginjo can't beat any captain.......They all improved since getting owned by Aizen or owning Arrancar
    5. I will never admit Kenpachi loss to Ichigo, the battle was a draw. And in Ichigo's favor Kenoachi received quite a few attacks before taking his GT...Which Ichigo was pushed to use his vast amount of reiatsu(Blue eye Ichigo) Always means surpassing his limits..Oo also masked saved him then too.
    6. Byakuya actually lost cause Ichigo hesitated to attack twice in Bankia....After Byakuya refrained from attacking with all his swords...So actually Byuakya would have to use Kidou and Shunpo techniques to fight Ichigo
    7. I'm referring to pre-time skip Ichigo now he is stronger than them. But not by that much it's interesting to see if Kenpachi all out can beat him before..Of course he could of.
    8.Ginjo was nothing special again Ichigo one handed his Cero...Due to his FB powers , Sure Kenpachi would do the same.

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    Re: Ginjo VS Zaraki Kenpachi

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    I don't think imagination was yukio's limitation in his fight against the captains. Trapping them in those dimensions by no means made him win either. As far as we saw nothing about rukio was actually exceptional in the end. He threw everything he had against hitsugaya which included missiles, traps and an army of monsters and even then nothing was actually strong enough to even scratch hitsugaya. Yukio had a cool ability but he plainly didn't have the power to deal with a proper captain level enemy.
    That's because he lacked imagination. If he wanted he could have made it so that chatroom Hitsugaya was in became 1000 degrees, or appear monsters that drained his stamina, or a timer, or something. He was literally a god inside that space, but didn't use his power to its full potential, instead just spawning missiles or monsters, which was mocked by Hitsugaya. How much imagination can a kid who plays video games all day have? And trapping the captains did mean he won. He was given Ichigo's power, remember? He can control the weather conditions or pretty much everything inside he wants. Make a clone of themselves or whatever, he just didn't get creative enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    He even attempted to destroy the dimension renji was in and even then he escaped relatively unscathed and I really cannot imagine yukio doing something more dangerous than having a dimension implode on someone.
    Yukio was monitoring every chatroom and when he saw that Jackie had blown herself up he thought she was dead so he stopped caring and focused on Hitsugaya now that he had just arrived. Renji was a bit burnt from Jackie exploding and not the dimension.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    More so, even the supposedly indestructible dimension ichigo was on was easily destroyed by ichigo from within.
    Ichigo had become a being that transcended Shinigami and Fullbring with immense power. A dimension created by a mere Fullbring wouldn't be able to touch him. Don't use this as an example. Ichigo is currently the strongest character in the manga.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    If the other dimensions were like that then I don't quite see any particular reason for the captains to be unable to break them if they feel like it.
    The dimensions were indestructible. Impossible to break. Inescapable. They are pocket dimensions, not an actual physical space. Yamamoto even said once that it was impossible to catch Aizen, even if he was there right in front of them. Why? Because the space inside that pocket dimension is removed from the actual physical plane they are. It also applies to Hachigen's Negacion barriers or Inoue's healing barrier. What's inside is literally not there. You can't reach it with a sword, it's somewhere else. A captain is not going to destroy a dimension because it's a thing made of time and relativity and whatever, everything but physical. It's like saying Yamamoto could open the Garganta by using Zanka no Tachi, it's impossible because it's not a door that can be opened by force.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    I don't think kirge was all that strong to be honest.
    He was a Stern Ritter with immense power and skill, and the captain of an entire special division. Up until that point his arrows were the most powerful shown in Bleach, and far more impressive that any other.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    He was outclassed by shikai ichigo in his base form and his volstandig was utterly outclassed by ichigo's bankai.
    Ichigo has become easily 5x stronger in just Shikai than he was with Bankai + mask. He could have outclassed any Stern Ritter with ease. This entire arc has been constantly building him up as the strongest. Look, if a ROYAL GUARD broke his hand on Ichigo's face, how is a mere captain level Stern Ritter going to compete? And it was Ichigo naked, with no contact with his sword or Shikahashou and distracted with Kirinji's servants, just to give you an idea of how strong he is.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    I don't think kirge would have won against any of the captains.
    Quilgue could have matched any captain easily and annihilated them with Vollstandig. You are forgetting how strong the Letzt Stil was when used by an unskilled Ishida. Vollstandig is much more powerful and refined. Quilgue was scared shitless of Ichigo's strength. He had gone Vollstandig and absorbed a powerful Hollow and still couldn't even touch Ichigo. Vollstandig alone places a spirit at its very maximum. Ichigo outclassing him with ease IS NOT SOMETHING THAT SHOULD BE POSSIBLE.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    While ichigo won with speed against him, the captains would have simply overwhelmed him with other traits their bankais have.
    They wouldn't be able to even scratch him. SR have Blutz, which is so strong Yamamoto has to go Bankai to cut through it. Even with 15 million degrees he had to use his most powerful technique to beat Blut Vene. What can other captains hope to do?

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    While I do agree in that ichigo is certainly stronger than before, I don't think he would be as strong as you say.
    He is that strong. He has full resolve, was given power by over 10 captain level characters including Yamamoto and Isshin, and his Fullbring has merged with his Shinigami powers, which gives him a power that transcends Shinigami. Just compare his feats after he regained his powers and get an idea of how strong he became. It's not just 2x or 3x, or even 5x, he's impossibly strong by spirit standards, because he has already surpassed that limiting barrier.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    What evidence is there that he really did get such a boost? His shikai for some reason (perhaps the restricting reiatsu medal) was substandard after the SS arc (shikai ichigo as a whole could not keep up with grimmjow, ulquiorra or even dodorni). The way I see it ichigo now simply lives up to what should be expected of a captain level shinigami with shikai and bankai (he lacks a mask boost nowadays too).
    You gotta be kidding me. I guess I just have to make a list because you've missed the most obvious details of how strong he got.

    First with reiatsu. It's going to be an easy one. It has increased by a lot, and by a lot I mean big enough because it is the combined reiatsu of every captain, vice captain and his father and Urahara's group flowing through his veins, and that it can solidify.

    A simple swing of his sword has a bigger power than a Getsuga Tenshou before he recovered his powers. A Getsuga Tenshou before the time skip was powerful enough to defeat Byakuya's Shikai.

    And how about size? Monstrous.
    Here's how a Getsuga Tenshou looked with his old powers [Example 1][Example 2]
    And here's how it looks like after he regained his powers. [Example 1][Example 2][Example 3][Example 4][Example 5][Example 6][Example 7]

    And how about strength? Ginjo said that by merging Shinigami and Fullbring he would acquire a power that transcends them both, and it certainly does. Even a Royal Guard known for his speed and probably the fastest character besides Ichigo broke his hand against his face because he wasn't fast or strong enough.

    So no, he's not just at a level on par with captains. By the time of the Soul Society arc he was above Byakuya, a very talented, gifted and skilled captain. Now he's ten times that. The VandenReich is afraid of him and actively avoid a confrontation. Wake up.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Even what he did against juhabach does not suggest such an insane power level considering juhabach did subdue him quite easily and ichigo only got a hit on him because juhabach was surprised by ichigo's new found blutz.
    Ichigo, who by the way, was out of reiatsu, exhausted and very injured, had no trouble reacting to Bach's speed.. Actually, the only reason Bach was pushing him was because of his physical strength but mostly because Ichigo was torn to shreds. It was the first thing Bach said to him. And it wasn't only him, but also Hanatarou, Shinji and himself.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    As for the royal guard punching him, there is the consideration that we have no idea whatsoever of how strong the punch was meant to be to begin with. Do we know for a fact that the punch had the full might of his reiatsu behind it? Is that guys' specialty hand to hand combat for that matter? All we know about the punch is that it would have killed ichigo had he still been hurt but that does not say much.
    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    As for the royal guard punching him, there is the consideration that we have no idea whatsoever of how strong the punch was meant to be to begin with. Do we know for a fact that the punch had the full might of his reiatsu behind it? Is that guys' specialty hand to hand combat for that matter? All we know about the punch is that it would have killed ichigo had he still been hurt but that does not say much.
    Kirinji smacked the shit out of Ichigo with full intentions of sending Ichigo into the other world. He knew he was healed and was also getting increasingly pissed at his constant whining. Do you know how hard you have to hit something to break your hand? You would have to punch a wall a few times with all your strength. This is a Royal Guard. His strength must be very high, at the very least at the average captain level, but probably much higher than that.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Even renji was able to take the punch which suggests the punches were being held back a decent bit or that they were not that dangerous to begin with (although I lean towards the coherent holding back as renji is not even a captain level shinigami)
    Unlike Ichigo who was in a relatively better state when he entered the bath, Renji was nearly dead, and Kirinji held back. Look at his position. When he punched Ichigo he did put balls behind his fist, and the body motion suggests that he did hit him hard. Meanwhile with Renji he just barely raised his fist, which means it was just a light tap. It still created a big splash because being a Royal Guard even a weak punch must have the power of a small meteorite, but it was still very weak.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Now, on the matter of ginjo, I don't see how he was equal to ichigo at all. Shikai is one thing but when the fight got to the bankai level ginjo was definitely and utterly outclassed.
    Even if he wasn't as strong as Ichigo he was still very powerful and strong enough to make him fight back.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Even if grimmjow was even with shikai ichigo his bankai boost by no means lives up to an actual bankai.
    Ichigo was weaker during the Arrancar arc than he was during the Soul Society arc. Ichigo could have beaten a released Grimmjow without having to use his mask if it wasn't for his crumbling resolve.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Zaraki was able to fight with 2 consecutive captains with the eyepatch on and he was able to fight evenly with sealed nnoitora with his eyepatch on too.
    If by "fight two captains" you mean blocking their sword once and using the moment's surprise to kick them both then yes. If you mean actually fighting then no. Nnoitra wasn't anything special. Just slow and physically strong like Kenpachi. I don't even know why he was 5th Espada. Once his Hierro got cut he was defenseless and Hierro is not something a competent fighter has trouble piercing.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    I don't see how ginjo with a pseudo bankai would win against kenpachi without his eyepatch on and even less if kenpachi bothers with using kendo (which one shotted a espada even though kenpachi was weak to begin with).
    Kenpachi is not nearly at Ginjo's level anywhere. He can't even fatally cut a captain with a clean hit. Nnoitra relied too much in his Hierro but was fragile behind it. Kenpachi with two hands is nothing special. He used two hands against Ichigo too and lost; it just makes him cut a little bit better. There's nothing special about his removing eyepatch either. He uses it to lower his power to enjoy battle better, just like how he uses his bells on his hair to make the battle more interesting, even though I don't see anybody talking about those bells anywhere. Kenpachi's reiatsu appears to be the strongest in the manga because it was the first time captain level reiatsu was shown and because Kubo went for the spectacle route and made skulls appear flying everywhere and a skeleton and a power spiraling into the sky and Yachiru's reiatsu taking the form of a tiger and whatever.

    ---------- Post added at 04:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:42 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by XXGenesis View Post
    1. I'm writing this from my Boone which why I can elaborate the way I want to dissect you weak arguments.
    AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH OH GOD, THE IRONY, IT'S BURNING! OH GOD, I'M MELTING, HELP!

    Quote Originally Posted by XXGenesis View Post
    2. I don't even want to as your a hard going Bleach follower a manga that has turned crappy and mis conceptualize what really goes down.
    Can't contain the laughter. You clearly lack even basic reading comprehension but think you are in a position to qualify anything?

    Quote Originally Posted by XXGenesis View Post
    3. Faulty contradictory arguments on your behalf...I read both manga and watched Anime. Even while Arcs because they make so much more sense with the full picture.
    The only contradiction is from the Anime buttfucking everything the manga stands for with no lube or even a kiss.

    Quote Originally Posted by XXGenesis View Post
    4. Ginjo can't beat any captain.......They all improved since getting owned by Aizen or owning Arrancar
    They all improved a little. Ginjo improved a lot.

    Quote Originally Posted by XXGenesis View Post
    5. I will never admit Kenpachi loss to Ichigo, the battle was a draw. And in Ichigo's favor Kenoachi received quite a few attacks before taking his GT...Which Ichigo was pushed to use his vast amount of reiatsu(Blue eye Ichigo) Always means surpassing his limits..Oo also masked saved him then too.
    Ichigo was pushing Kenpachi back. Not even using two hands or taking off his eyepatch saved him.

    Quote Originally Posted by XXGenesis View Post
    6. Byakuya actually lost cause Ichigo hesitated to attack twice in Bankia....After Byakuya refrained from attacking with all his swords...So actually Byuakya would have to use Kidou and Shunpo techniques to fight Ichigo
    The only reason Byakuya is still alive is because Ichigo let him live. Later Ichigo started killing himself due to his own inexperience with Bankai, essentially weakening to a point where Byakuya could overpower him.

    Quote Originally Posted by XXGenesis View Post
    7. I'm referring to pre-time skip Ichigo now he is stronger than them. But not by that much it's interesting to see if Kenpachi all out can beat him before..Of course he could of.
    Ichigo with no Bankai, no Shunpo, no skill or proper experience with a sword beat Kenpachi fair and square, in a battle of reiatsu. Kenpachi lost and is only alive because Inoue revived him.

    Quote Originally Posted by XXGenesis View Post
    8.Ginjo was nothing special again Ichigo one handed his Cero...Due to his FB powers , Sure Kenpachi would do the same.
    That was a transcendental class cero you are talking about. Kenpachi's hand would be ground to dust, then his arm, then his body.
    This might come in handy. Maybe one in more analysis to come:

    The Thousand Year Blood War buildup and recap:
    http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showth...=1#post3091160

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  5. #19
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Ginjo VS Zaraki Kenpachi

    Quote Originally Posted by Torran View Post
    That's because he lacked imagination. If he wanted he could have made it so that chatroom Hitsugaya was in became 1000 degrees, or appear monsters that drained his stamina, or a timer, or something. He was literally a god inside that space, but didn't use his power to its full potential, instead just spawning missiles or monsters, which was mocked by Hitsugaya. How much imagination can a kid who plays video games all day have? And trapping the captains did mean he won. He was given Ichigo's power, remember? He can control the weather conditions or pretty much everything inside he wants. Make a clone of themselves or whatever, he just didn't get creative enough.



    Yukio was monitoring every chatroom and when he saw that Jackie had blown herself up he thought she was dead so he stopped caring and focused on Hitsugaya now that he had just arrived. Renji was a bit burnt from Jackie exploding and not the dimension.



    Ichigo had become a being that transcended Shinigami and Fullbring with immense power. A dimension created by a mere Fullbring wouldn't be able to touch him. Don't use this as an example. Ichigo is currently the strongest character in the manga.



    The dimensions were indestructible. Impossible to break. Inescapable. They are pocket dimensions, not an actual physical space. Yamamoto even said once that it was impossible to catch Aizen, even if he was there right in front of them. Why? Because the space inside that pocket dimension is removed from the actual physical plane they are. It also applies to Hachigen's Negacion barriers or Inoue's healing barrier. What's inside is literally not there. You can't reach it with a sword, it's somewhere else. A captain is not going to destroy a dimension because it's a thing made of time and relativity and whatever, everything but physical. It's like saying Yamamoto could open the Garganta by using Zanka no Tachi, it's impossible because it's not a door that can be opened by force.



    He was a Stern Ritter with immense power and skill, and the captain of an entire special division. Up until that point his arrows were the most powerful shown in Bleach, and far more impressive that any other.



    Ichigo has become easily 5x stronger in just Shikai than he was with Bankai + mask. He could have outclassed any Stern Ritter with ease. This entire arc has been constantly building him up as the strongest. Look, if a ROYAL GUARD broke his hand on Ichigo's face, how is a mere captain level Stern Ritter going to compete? And it was Ichigo naked, with no contact with his sword or Shikahashou and distracted with Kirinji's servants, just to give you an idea of how strong he is.



    Quilgue could have matched any captain easily and annihilated them with Vollstandig. You are forgetting how strong the Letzt Stil was when used by an unskilled Ishida. Vollstandig is much more powerful and refined. Quilgue was scared shitless of Ichigo's strength. He had gone Vollstandig and absorbed a powerful Hollow and still couldn't even touch Ichigo. Vollstandig alone places a spirit at its very maximum. Ichigo outclassing him with ease IS NOT SOMETHING THAT SHOULD BE POSSIBLE.



    They wouldn't be able to even scratch him. SR have Blutz, which is so strong Yamamoto has to go Bankai to cut through it. Even with 15 million degrees he had to use his most powerful technique to beat Blut Vene. What can other captains hope to do?



    He is that strong. He has full resolve, was given power by over 10 captain level characters including Yamamoto and Isshin, and his Fullbring has merged with his Shinigami powers, which gives him a power that transcends Shinigami. Just compare his feats after he regained his powers and get an idea of how strong he became. It's not just 2x or 3x, or even 5x, he's impossibly strong by spirit standards, because he has already surpassed that limiting barrier.



    You gotta be kidding me. I guess I just have to make a list because you've missed the most obvious details of how strong he got.

    First with reiatsu. It's going to be an easy one. It has increased by a lot, and by a lot I mean big enough because it is the combined reiatsu of every captain, vice captain and his father and Urahara's group flowing through his veins, and that it can solidify.

    A simple swing of his sword has a bigger power than a Getsuga Tenshou before he recovered his powers. A Getsuga Tenshou before the time skip was powerful enough to defeat Byakuya's Shikai.

    And how about size? Monstrous.
    Here's how a Getsuga Tenshou looked with his old powers [Example 1][Example 2]
    And here's how it looks like after he regained his powers. [Example 1][Example 2][Example 3][Example 4][Example 5][Example 6][Example 7]

    And how about strength? Ginjo said that by merging Shinigami and Fullbring he would acquire a power that transcends them both, and it certainly does. Even a Royal Guard known for his speed and probably the fastest character besides Ichigo broke his hand against his face because he wasn't fast or strong enough.

    So no, he's not just at a level on par with captains. By the time of the Soul Society arc he was above Byakuya, a very talented, gifted and skilled captain. Now he's ten times that. The VandenReich is afraid of him and actively avoid a confrontation. Wake up.



    Ichigo, who by the way, was out of reiatsu, exhausted and very injured, had no trouble reacting to Bach's speed.. Actually, the only reason Bach was pushing him was because of his physical strength but mostly because Ichigo was torn to shreds. It was the first thing Bach said to him. And it wasn't only him, but also Hanatarou, Shinji and himself.





    Kirinji smacked the shit out of Ichigo with full intentions of sending Ichigo into the other world. He knew he was healed and was also getting increasingly pissed at his constant whining. Do you know how hard you have to hit something to break your hand? You would have to punch a wall a few times with all your strength. This is a Royal Guard. His strength must be very high, at the very least at the average captain level, but probably much higher than that.



    Unlike Ichigo who was in a relatively better state when he entered the bath, Renji was nearly dead, and Kirinji held back. Look at his position. When he punched Ichigo he did put balls behind his fist, and the body motion suggests that he did hit him hard. Meanwhile with Renji he just barely raised his fist, which means it was just a light tap. It still created a big splash because being a Royal Guard even a weak punch must have the power of a small meteorite, but it was still very weak.



    Even if he wasn't as strong as Ichigo he was still very powerful and strong enough to make him fight back.



    Ichigo was weaker during the Arrancar arc than he was during the Soul Society arc. Ichigo could have beaten a released Grimmjow without having to use his mask if it wasn't for his crumbling resolve.



    If by "fight two captains" you mean blocking their sword once and using the moment's surprise to kick them both then yes. If you mean actually fighting then no. Nnoitra wasn't anything special. Just slow and physically strong like Kenpachi. I don't even know why he was 5th Espada. Once his Hierro got cut he was defenseless and Hierro is not something a competent fighter has trouble piercing.



    Kenpachi is not nearly at Ginjo's level anywhere. He can't even fatally cut a captain with a clean hit. Nnoitra relied too much in his Hierro but was fragile behind it. Kenpachi with two hands is nothing special. He used two hands against Ichigo too and lost; it just makes him cut a little bit better. There's nothing special about his removing eyepatch either. He uses it to lower his power to enjoy battle better, just like how he uses his bells on his hair to make the battle more interesting, even though I don't see anybody talking about those bells anywhere. Kenpachi's reiatsu appears to be the strongest in the manga because it was the first time captain level reiatsu was shown and because Kubo went for the spectacle route and made skulls appear flying everywhere and a skeleton and a power spiraling into the sky and Yachiru's reiatsu taking the form of a tiger and whatever.
    So what if he could make the room that hot? Fullbring is as far as we know powered by reiatsu so whatever godlike thing yukio could throw could be resisted by reiatsu. It does not matter how thorough and absolute yukio's power is inside those rooms if he cannot hope to match the reiatsu of a captain. He was indeed given ichigo's power but even that still only took him that far. We have no reason whatsoever to think the missiles could have been more powerful or the monsters stronger than what they were. Gravity, weather, lava... each and everything rukio could conceivably throw could be resisted with reiatsu. Even if yukio had created a space with no air hitsugaya could have simply destroyed it. Yukio's ability was godlike, yukia was just a measly human.

    What does ichigo merging his shinigami powers with his fullbring have to do with anything? That was never stated to be implicitly stated to be the reason for which ichigo broke the dimension that easily. Ichigo is indeed extremely powerful but so are the captains at large. You are comparing negacion to what yukio did. While both create separate spaces they are by no means necessarily the same thing. If things were like you say then ichigo having newfound fullbring powers added to his shinigami powers wouldn't have made a difference.

    You are grossly overestimating kirge. Why would we assume he can take captains so easily? He can indeed absorb people but so what? He only did so against people who would be fodder to captains to begin with and allon who to be fair we have no idea of how he would actually fare against a captain (although I am inclined to thinking a captain bankai would take him out rather easily). What we actually saw was that while kirge's holy arrow were said to be stronger than ishida's arrows they were not powerful enough that they presented a threat to ichigo at all while in shikai. Kirge used volstandig because ichigo was just about to make short work of him since his arrows could be stopped so easily. The only moment in the fight in which kirge appeared awesome and stuff was when he used volstandig and ichigo was still in shikai. Once ichigo actually used his bankai what we saw was that kirge was helpless. Kirge made it clear, ichigo was easily surpassing him even after getting a power boost for allon (meaning that he was even stronger than what he would ordinarily be). In the final moments of the fight kirge was getting so throughly pounded he could not afford a second to change to his blutz arterie, he was stuck with blutz vene or else he risked getting killed.

    Blutz vene is a defensive power which makes the user unable to gather offensive power. As far as the quincy are concerned you either defend or attack, there are no middle grounds. Sure, a quincy could resist basically anything with blutz vene but their apparent invulnerability also makes the harmless for the time of its duration. Quincy can be killed by the most standard of means once they use blutz arterie, that is why ichigo easily blew off juhabach's hand when he caught him offguard after using blutz vene.


    Ichigo did get his power thanks to the captains but that does not mean his current reiatsu level is actually the result of adding the reiatsu of all of them. As far as we have been led to believe ichigo is currently using his own shinigami powers. The sword gathered an immense amount of power to restore ichigo's shinigami powers, not to have him function with the combined power of all of his friends.

    Of course ichigo's getsuga tensho would be more powerful after he got his powers back. I mean, the comparison ginjo was making was against ichigo's literally powerless state.

    We have literally no reason to think nnoitora or kenpachi are slow in the least. If nnoitora was as slow as you say there would be no reason for him to be quinta or an espada at all, he would just be blitz in combat by literally anyone. Yet we have yet to see nnoitora or kenpachi get blitz.

    As far as I recall kenpachi never used kendo against ichigo. The fight tied before getting there.

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    Re: Ginjo VS Zaraki Kenpachi

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    So what if he could make the room that hot? Fullbring is as far as we know powered by reiatsu so whatever godlike thing yukio could throw could be resisted by reiatsu. It does not matter how thorough and absolute yukio's power is inside those rooms if he cannot hope to match the reiatsu of a captain. He was indeed given ichigo's power but even that still only took him that far. We have no reason whatsoever to think the missiles could have been more powerful or the monsters stronger than what they were. Gravity, weather, lava... each and everything rukio could conceivably throw could be resisted with reiatsu. Even if yukio had created a space with no air hitsugaya could have simply destroyed it. Yukio's ability was godlike, yukia was just a measly human.
    A space devoid of air is not going to be beaten by reiatsu. Or a space full of poison, carbon monoxide. Nobody can beat those with brute force. Yukio simply lacked imagination, and Hitsugaya made fun of that.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    What does ichigo merging his shinigami powers with his fullbring have to do with anything? That was never stated to be implicitly stated to be the reason for which ichigo broke the dimension that easily. Ichigo is indeed extremely powerful but so are the captains at large. You are comparing negacion to what yukio did. While both create separate spaces they are by no means necessarily the same thing. If things were like you say then ichigo having newfound fullbring powers added to his shinigami powers wouldn't have made a difference.
    Yes they would. It's also the same reason he broke out of that Bankai stealing medallion, and why he broke out the Bakudo #1 as a human, or a Bakudo #99, or how he stopped the Soukyoku or the stand when it's impossible, or how he destroyed a Bakudo #59, or Aizen's Hado #96. He's not normal. Read those feats in context. Ichigo is being built nonstop as overpowered and him breaking out of Yukio's dimension is part of it. He didn't attack the dimension or try to break out of it, it simply couldn't contain him. The captains are not going to break out of a dimension with power because you can't attack non-physical spatial anomalies with your fists, it's simply impossible. If Ichigo broke out of it literally effortlessly is because a Fullbring is not going to compare to a being that transcends Fullbring. "It's impossible, that dimension can't be erased" *BAM!* It's destroyed without even being attacked.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    You are grossly overestimating kirge. Why would we assume he can take captains so easily? He can indeed absorb people but so what? He only did so against people who would be fodder to captains to begin with and allon who to be fair we have no idea of how he would actually fare against a captain (although I am inclined to thinking a captain bankai would take him out rather easily).
    It's actually the other way around. A captain of a special division with a letter belonging to the Stern Ritter? He must be at the very least captain level. And I don't know you got to the conclusion that a captain with Bankai could beat him rather easily when it's canonically proven that the Final Quincy Form is pushing the limits of a spiritual body. Ishida, a mere vice captain level or lower couldn't handle himself against Mayuri, and after using the Letzt Stil with no Blutz, skill or a fully developed body as a Quincy SPLIT MAYURI'S BANKAI IN HALF with a tiny arrow of which he could create as many as he liked. And that is just the old version the Quincy ditched years ago. Vollstandig is on a whole other level and Quilgue was also in a whole other level than Ishida back then. What makes you think something that is guaranteed to be much more powerful is going to lose easily against a puny captain Bankai? You can't be any more wrongest. You are in fact so wrong that it has spread to me and made me commit a very basic grammar mistake.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    What we actually saw was that while kirge's holy arrow were said to be stronger than ishida's arrows they were not powerful enough that they presented a threat to ichigo at all while in shikai. Kirge used volstandig because ichigo was just about to make short work of him since his arrows could be stopped so easily.
    It's the other way around again. Quilgue wasn't weak, Ichigo was simply too strong. And not powerful enough? Not for Ichigo maybe, but for the rest they would. This explosion was caused by a single one of his arrows.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Once ichigo actually used his bankai what we saw was that kirge was helpless. Kirge made it clear, ichigo was easily surpassing him even after getting a power boost for allon (meaning that he was even stronger than what he would ordinarily be). In the final moments of the fight kirge was getting so throughly pounded he could not afford a second to change to his blutz arterie, he was stuck with blutz vene or else he risked getting killed.
    You are reading the facts but not reading in context. Ichigo was simply too strong for him or anyone for that matter. Quilgue or any other Stern Ritter would have been beaten effortlessly by Ichigo.
    .
    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Blutz vene is a defensive power which makes the user unable to gather offensive power. As far as the quincy are concerned you either defend or attack, there are no middle grounds. Sure, a quincy could resist basically anything with blutz vene but their apparent invulnerability also makes the harmless for the time of its duration. Quincy can be killed by the most standard of means once they use blutz arterie, that is why ichigo easily blew off juhabach's hand when he caught him offguard after using blutz vene.
    Actually, the way Quilgue says it makes it sound like he can use both and balance them out, but because Ichigo was so damn strong he was forced to place his full power into Blut Vene. And what makes you so sure Bach wasn't using Blut Vene to defend? That blast was massive and he survived it with only a few bruises.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Ichigo did get his power thanks to the captains but that does not mean his current reiatsu level is actually the result of adding the reiatsu of all of them. As far as we have been led to believe ichigo is currently using his own shinigami powers. The sword gathered an immense amount of power to restore ichigo's shinigami powers, not to have him function with the combined power of all of his friends.
    Then it would beat the purpose of the entire story and Kubo might as well end Bleach right now.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Of course ichigo's getsuga tensho would be more powerful after he got his powers back. I mean, the comparison ginjo was making was against ichigo's literally powerless state.
    Powerless state? Don't you mean Ichigo in his Fullbring armor? In which case that Getsuga was pretty powerful and created a decent sized explosion, and it terms of size it wasn't small or anything. But you are missing the point. The air pressure behind the sword was powerful enough to be mistaken by a Getsuga Tenshou. And where have I seen that before? Right, Aizen. Oh, and in his fight once Ginjo went Bankai too the entire sky was lighting up from the reiatsu, causing huge explosions just from having those two move around. They both are that far beyond normal captain level.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    We have literally no reason to think nnoitora or kenpachi are slow in the least.
    Are you sure? Nnoitra didn't use any Shunpo or even high speed and always relied on his huge scythe or Hierro, and Kenpachi doesn't even know proper Shunpo. Kenpachi couldn't keep with Ichigo, and Nnoitra couldn't keep up with a half dead Ichigo.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    If nnoitora was as slow as you say there would be no reason for him to be quinta or an espada at all, he would just be blitz in combat by literally anyone.
    Because his physical strength was very high, his Hierro was very strong and his reiatsu must have also been higher than Grimmjow's.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Yet we have yet to see nnoitora or kenpachi get blitz.
    Except they totally have. Nnoitra couldn't keep up with Ichigo and then got blitzed like 4 times by Nel, and Kenpachi was blitzed by Tousen. But Kenpachi keeps getting lucky with his match ups as Ichigo didn't know Shunpo and Nnoitra and Yammi were slow.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    As far as I recall kenpachi never used kendo against ichigo. The fight tied before getting there.
    Kenpachi doesn't even know Kendo. He said that Yamamoto tried to teach him but he didn't like the idea, but he did get one thing out of it and that was that two hands were stronger than one. During his fight with Ichigo he was forced to use two hands to defend and when both clashed he was also using two hands. Kenpachi is just not as strong as everybody believes he is.
    This might come in handy. Maybe one in more analysis to come:

    The Thousand Year Blood War buildup and recap:
    http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showth...=1#post3091160

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  8. #21
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Ginjo VS Zaraki Kenpachi

    Even if yukio had done any of that it wouldn't have made a difference. All the captains had to do was simply break the room they were at or in a worst case scenario break the dimension itself. Even hitsugaya only barely bothered with yukio because he wanted him to dispel the other dimensions. Besides, being inside the dimension is in itself not as bad a plan as you make it out to be. If he had remained outside the dimension then he would have been vulnerable to whoever did beat the other fullbringers. If he stayed in a dimension on alone then that dimension would have been a target to the other captains (who rukia made very clear could indeed break the dimensions). If yukio had been up against a VC the situation would have been different but in the end he was up against a proper captain with actual captain level. Heck, even grimmjow could bend space with his gran rey cero, there is no reason for the dimensions to be all that to begin with.

    All yukio said was that he could not dispel the dimension ginjo was in. Other than that there was really no difference between that one and the others. Ichigo pulled of the things you mentioned including breaking out of a bakudo as a human simply because he has a a lot of reiatsu. Even as a human he poured out enough reiatsu to interfere with rukia's sensing. But so what? The captains also have insane amounts of reiatsu and as I pointed out before even sexta espada has enough power to bend space. Why would the guy who beat septima easily, the guy who overpowered tercera or the guy who one shoted quinta because he used "two hands" have trouble with this?

    The quincy volstandig is extremely different from the lets stilt though. More so, the form will in the end simply not be all that because otherwise what we should expect is that a single captain level quincy using the form should be more powerful than all of SS and nothing we have seen suggests that is the case. Whether volstandig is a more stable but less powerful variation of the lets stilt or mayuri simply was too weak to handle ishida's full potential as a quincy does not change that in the end the captains will be more than able to match the quincy volstandig with their own bankai. Nothing suggests kirge was among the high level stern rittern in the least. Not even the fact that he was given command over a bunch of even weaker vandenreich to recruit an already defeated army whose leader was defeated by juhabach.

    Nothing suggests that blutz vene and blutz arterie can be combined or balanced. More so, urahara makes a point of saying that they can't, he mentions it as a crucial strategy to fight the quincy.

    Why would that beat the purpose of the story? If anything the story would be overall pointless if ichigo's power level was currently the sum of yamamoto's, ishin's, the captains, the VCs, the vizards and whoever else has reiatsu in bleach. If ichigo's power was like that it would currently dwarf yamamoto to the extreme of yamamoto being worthless fodder to him. Aside of yamamoto and ishin there would be 20 other captain level people giving him A LOT of power. The sword was used specifically so that ichigo would get his own power back, not to make him into this huge container of reiatsu not his own. There is literally no reason for us to think that ichigo is currently using anything but his own power.

    except that basically any captain is able to use sword pressure like that and straight up cut buildings. Even kenpachi was able to do something similar to that during his fight with ichigo and in all likelihood he does not even know how to properly use kenatsu.


    It does not change that that was basically a powerless state of ichigo. He didn't even have reiatsu at that point and could barely, if at all, feel it. At that point he was basically being powered up by the reiatsu which the medal had to the point where ichigo's first use of fullbring was basically throwing reiatsu flowing out of the badge at people.

    Not knowing or using shunpo or sonido is not the same as being slow. Its not like in fights people only move by using either. Nnoitora did rely on his hierro and perhaps speed is not either of their fortes however that far from implies either of them is slow.

    Nnoitora was basically playing with nel and ichigo. After a while nnoitora made it EXTREMELY clear that nel was not a threat to him at which point nel used her release.

    Ok, kenpachi does not know kendo but that does not mean he is not every bit as insanely strong as everyone makes him out to be. Kenpachi had a lone day of kendo lessons on him and even that was enough to make the difference between a espada handing him his ass on a silver blood stained platter and ripping that espada apart without said espada even being able to defend. Most captains need a bankai level power boost to make such differences in battle, kenpachi just needed to remember that sad day where he was forced to learn how to fight.

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    Re: Ginjo VS Zaraki Kenpachi

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Even if yukio had done any of that it wouldn't have made a difference. All the captains had to do was simply break the room they were at or in a worst case scenario break the dimension itself. Even hitsugaya only barely bothered with yukio because he wanted him to dispel the other dimensions. Besides, being inside the dimension is in itself not as bad a plan as you make it out to be.
    How are they going to break out of a poison room with force? How are they going to break from a removed span with force? They can't. Dimensions aren't a physical room that can be touched or cut, a small area the size of a PSP can contain an entire planet if desired. Yukio can also create a space that immobilizes somebody and is completely invulnerable or imprison them in a room made out of that spirit negating rock that makes the walls of Seireitei. The captains are not simply going to walk for hours until they find the outer wall of the chatroom, it's simply impossible. YOU CAN'T DESTROY SOMETHING NON-PHYSICAL WITH PHYSICAL STRENGTH. It's just like Hachigen's barriers or like Negacion. Just because you can see it there doesn't mean it's actually there, it's completely removed from the plane they are in.

    But even if you don't understand this concept I can still apply it to something you can understand. Byakuya went Bankai inside the chatroom, and used it for a while, with no effect. Let's say that he got rid of Tsukishima and walked for minutes, hours, months or decades until he found the end of the chatroom, what would he do then? Strike at it with his blade? What did Ichigo do? He simply used Bankai and the chatroom blew up completely. No need to attack it or move from his position, the chatroom simply could not contain him.

    Now you can accept what I say which is consistent to what Ginjo said and the logic that was established by Aizen or bend the rules of physics and reality to your advantage because you can't quite accept the manga fact that Ichigo is not normal and has become ridiculously overpowered.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Heck, even grimmjow could bend space with his gran rey cero, there is no reason for the dimensions to be all that to begin with.
    Espada were forbidden from using high power inside Las Noches because they could damage it. You don't think it's just a simple dome made out of rock, do you? It's permanent day inside, that ceiling is not merely painted. Not an actual removed space from the rest.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    (who rukia made very clear could indeed break the dimensions)
    You are only reading [half] the text bubbles but not grasping the context.

    "Hey, let's destroy that thing".
    "Nope, you can't, it's unbreakable".
    "OMG I can't believe something like this can exist"
    *Ichigo breaks out of it* .

    Ever since the Fullbring arc Ichigo has been built up as very strong and a staple in Soul Society. You trying to discredit my claim by any means necessary also means you are trying to dismantle 50 chapters worth of story progression. Ichigo breaking out of that dimension was a storytelling tool and the captains waited outside to hear an answer and to know if they could have his trust or not. Those chatrooms can't be destroyed if you hit them enough. The End.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    All yukio said was that he could not dispel the dimension ginjo was in. Other than that there was really no difference between that one and the others.
    Exactly, no difference so the others were also indestructible.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Ichigo pulled of the things you mentioned including breaking out of a bakudo as a human simply because he has a a lot of reiatsu. Even as a human he poured out enough reiatsu to interfere with rukia's sensing. But so what? The captains also have insane amounts of reiatsu
    And he broke out of a Bakudo #99 too. That's not something that can be done with strength alone. Not even Hollowfied Kensei could. But back to simplifying spatial anomalies into mere physical locations like you love so much, what hope does a captain stand when those chatrooms can imprison several captains at once and were created with Ichigo's power? None.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    and as I pointed out before even sexta espada has enough power to bend space.
    Distorting whatever magic technique that kept Las Noches in permanent daylight. The Espada are forbidden from released too much power inside the dome.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Why would the guy who beat septima easily
    He beat him by using a hundred million microscopic blades.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    the guy who overpowered tercera
    Harribel was much stronger than Hitsugaya but went easy on him because she has a thing for children and if the ever had trouble was because Hitsugaya kept freezing all that water she was throwing at him.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    the guy who one shoted quinta because he used "two hands"
    Nnoitra was nothing without his precious Hierro.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    have trouble with this?
    I don't know. Go ask the scientific community how you can go back in time and manipulate space at will by punching it hard enough and see how they laugh at you. Not even Yamamoto can destroy something that is not actually there because even coming to the conclusion that you can destroy physics with strength is fucking retarded, let alone trying.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    The quincy volstandig is extremely different from the lets stilt though. More so, the form will in the end simply not be all that because otherwise what we should expect is that a single captain level quincy using the form should be more powerful than all of SS and nothing we have seen suggests that is the case. Whether volstandig is a more stable but less powerful variation of the lets stilt or mayuri simply was too weak to handle ishida's full potential as a quincy does not change that in the end the captains will be more than able to match the quincy volstandig with their own bankai.
    Because they ditched Letzt Stil centuries and Vollstandig is much more refined and packs a bigger punch to even be able to push Ichigo back a little. And there are four big flaws in your argument:
    1- That Mayuri was too weak for Ishida's potential when he in fact was superior and even more so with his Bankai, which was split in two by an arrow made of super concentrated pure reishi.
    2- That the Vollstandig can easily absorb captain level beings in seconds and add them to their strength.
    3- Every single bit of reiatsu released by a captain or their Bankai will only strengthen Vollstandig.
    4- The brutally powerful Blutz at the Quincy's disposal.

    Just Blutz alone is enough to withstand Zanka no Tachi from a close range or to increase attack power by the same amount IN A QUINCY'S BASE FORM, and a SR is capable of matching a captain by themselves. A mere Bankai is not going to compare to the Final Getsuga Tenshou version of a Quincy because it's many steps above a sword release.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Nothing suggests kirge was among the high level stern rittern in the least. Not even the fact that he was given command over a bunch of even weaker vandenreich to recruit an already defeated army whose leader was defeated by juhabach.
    Nothing suggest the SR had any high level combatants actually, they all are ranked by ability. Quilgue had a letter that meant he belonged to the SR and was a captain of a special division with a uniform similar to Bambietta, who was shown to be right behind Haschwald on top of it. Quilgue was obviously very skilled and very powerful and commanded some troops that we have no reason to believe are any different than the "small fry" Soldat summoned to level Seireitei, and of course he's not going to command other Stern Ritter.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Nothing suggests that blutz vene and blutz arterie can be combined or balanced. More so, urahara makes a point of saying that they can't, he mentions it as a crucial strategy to fight the quincy.
    First of all, how is Urahara going to know fully after watching Ichigo fight for a few minutes? Second, Quilgue made it sound as if he couldn't switch to Blut Arteria with his Blut Vene at full power, which implies he can kind of balance them both. Third, Urahara doesn't discredit what I said, as noticing say, the difference between 70% BV, 30% BA and 20% BV and 80% BA distinguishes the time to attack or defend.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Why would that beat the purpose of the story? If anything the story would be overall pointless if ichigo's power level was currently the sum of yamamoto's, ishin's, the captains, the VCs, the vizards and whoever else has reiatsu in bleach. If ichigo's power was like that it would currently dwarf yamamoto to the extreme of yamamoto being worthless fodder to him. Aside of yamamoto and ishin there would be 20 other captain level people giving him A LOT of power. The sword was used specifically so that ichigo would get his own power back, not to make him into this huge container of reiatsu not his own. There is literally no reason for us to think that ichigo is currently using anything but his own power.
    I guess you haven't read my post linked on my signature. The old Soul Society is over and Ichigo is now in charge. The entire captains and vice captains and Vaizados and Urahara's group giving him power symbolizes that and it would be pointless if Ichigo just had only his own power with little to no change. The end of last arc and this arc has been building him as strong. And please don't tell me you have missed that, although I know you've missed them even though I gave you around half of them already.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    except that basically any captain is able to use sword pressure like that and straight up cut buildings. Even kenpachi was able to do something similar to that during his fight with ichigo and in all likelihood he does not even know how to properly use kenatsu.
    They can't, at least not in the scale Ichigo and Ginjo were doing. A single clash of their sword was like an explosion and the sky was lighting up from the residual energy. What other captains can do at best is create an air wave. What Ichigo did with a simple wave was strong enough to be mistaken with one of his own Getsuga Tenshous, and that is very powerful.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    It does not change that that was basically a powerless state of ichigo. He didn't even have reiatsu at that point and could barely, if at all, feel it. At that point he was basically being powered up by the reiatsu which the medal had to the point where ichigo's first use of fullbring was basically throwing reiatsu flowing out of the badge at people.
    Powerless? His Shinigami powers never really left him. He had recovered his ability to sense reiatsu and his Fullbring had reawakened and fuses with his Shinigami powers. And again. Powerless?

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Not knowing or using shunpo or sonido is not the same as being slow. Its not like in fights people only move by using either. Nnoitora did rely on his hierro and perhaps speed is not either of their fortes however that far from implies either of them is slow.
    I was talking about slow in comparison with skilled fighters. They both could move fast in the sense they could jump fast or cut fast, but nothing impressive overall. A half dead Ichigo was superior to both Kenpachi and Nnoitra, but in Nnoitra's case the Hierro was too strong.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Nnoitora was basically playing with nel and ichigo. After a while nnoitora made it EXTREMELY clear that nel was not a threat to him at which point nel used her release.
    Nnoitra was talking big. He was nearly blown to bits and stabbed in the neck even after saying Nel wasn't as strong. And even after he stopped "playing with Ichigo" he couldn't get to kill him or reach his speed, so he upped up the amount of times he cheated just to bring Ichigo down. Stop taking trash talking so literally and read what is actually going on.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Ok, kenpachi does not know kendo but that does not mean he is not every bit as insanely strong as everyone makes him out to be. Kenpachi had a lone day of kendo lessons on him and even that was enough to make the difference between a espada handing him his ass on a silver blood stained platter and ripping that espada apart without said espada even being able to defend.
    Kenpachi could cut Nnoitra no problem with just one hand. Using two hands didn't make a big difference. And "Nnoitra couldn't even defend?" He charged straight at Kenpachi twice and didn't even attempt to defend but instead tried to kill.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Most captains need a bankai level power boost to make such differences in battle, kenpachi just needed to remember that sad day where he was forced to learn how to fight.
    Any other captain could have killed Nnoitra much easily. They are actually skilled and fast and have a Zanpakutou. Nnoitra didn't actually change much after releasing, the biggest difference was multiple arms.
    This might come in handy. Maybe one in more analysis to come:

    The Thousand Year Blood War buildup and recap:
    http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showth...=1#post3091160

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  11. #23
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Ginjo VS Zaraki Kenpachi

    And yet, what we saw was ichigo physically destroying the dimension he was in. That is a fact, why would any other character with enough power be unable to do that? If its a matter of power the captains got plenty.

    And there is still no point in comparing negacion or hachi/orihime's barriers to yukio's ability. Just the fact that we saw ichigo physically breaking out of yukio's dimension is more than enough proof that the dimensions he was creating were not all that to begin with.

    Not sure of what you mean about the espada there, what does it have to do with my point? My point was that even sexta espada was able to use his power to bend space itself which ordinarily cannot be physically interacted with in a way in which you can bend it. Dimensions are basically made of space and we have factual proof that captain level individuals can do quite a bit to it if they want to so why would a human made dimension be all that in comparison? Yukio is weak and his dimensions and the things inside them are made of reiatsu too therefore bound to the rule that higher reiatsu triumphs weaker reiatsu. The manga never said that grimmjow's cero just distorted light or whatever created the blue sky, his cero did not even reach the ceiling. His cero distorted "space", not whatever random magic which was never mentioned in the manga.

    We don't need to ask the scientific community about how space/dimension bending and creating works in a manga. We have seen ichigo physically break a dimension even though at this point he is still pretty tri-dimensional and we have seen grimmjow bend space, the stuff dimensions are at large made off. The manga has already crapped on every notion of what space is and how it works in the real world, the comparison is at large pointless.

    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...3-page-13.html
    As far as the manga has said blutz vene and arterie cannot be balanced at all. Until this manga hints otherwise this is a fact.


    When ichigo fought nnoitora not even once nnoitora even bothered to try against him. The manga made a point of showing nnoitora was simply toying around with nel and ichigo and that neither ever had so much of a shred of a chance of winning. Nel just got an actual upperhand from releasing however if she had faced nnoitora's resurreccion she would have had her ass royally handed to her. If nnoitora had actually tried against them both of them would have died. Its not that nnoitora couldn't keep with ichigo, he was perfectly able to but rather chose to play around. Nnoitora is plainly not as incompetent as you make him out to be and while kenpachi does not actually know how to fight he more than makes up for it with the absurd amount of reiatsu he has. The rule of thumb in bleach is that when two reiatsu's clash the weaker one gets hurt. Kenpachi is nothing but a huge mass of reiatsu and that is in fact enough in this case.

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    Re: Ginjo VS Zaraki Kenpachi

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    And yet, what we saw was ichigo physically destroying the dimension he was in. That is a fact, why would any other character with enough power be unable to do that? If its a matter of power the captains got plenty.

    And there is still no point in comparing negacion or hachi/orihime's barriers to yukio's ability. Just the fact that we saw ichigo physically breaking out of yukio's dimension is more than enough proof that the dimensions he was creating were not all that to begin with.
    When did Ichigo break it with physical power exactly? The mere act of going Bankai made it blow up. Byakuya also used Bankai and nothing happened. Why? Because unlike Ichigo, Byakuya is a mere 2D being. Those dimensions are not going to go away by attacking them enough times. Get over it.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Not sure of what you mean about the espada there, what does it have to do with my point? My point was that even sexta espada was able to use his power to bend space itself which ordinarily cannot be physically interacted with in a way in which you can bend it. Dimensions are basically made of space and we have factual proof that captain level individuals can do quite a bit to it if they want to so why would a human made dimension be all that in comparison?
    Since when was Las Noches a dimension? It was a dome with some Kido or whatever giving permanent daylight and surveillance and the Espada were forbidden from using any powerful technique or release INSIDE Las Noches.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Yukio is weak and his dimensions and the things inside them are made of reiatsu too therefore bound to the rule that higher reiatsu triumphs weaker reiatsu.
    Yukio is an omnipotent and omniscient god of his video game, and is not bound by rules. Weaker reiatsu < stronger reiatsu doesn't apply to him, even less with Ichigo's power fused to his own. You could put a thousand million Yamamotos in Ultra Saiyan Kaio-Bankai and they wouldn't be able to alter another reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    he manga never said that grimmjow's cero just distorted light or whatever created the blue sky, his cero did not even reach the ceiling. His cero distorted "space", not whatever random magic which was never mentioned in the manga.
    Espada were forbidden from using Gran Rey Cero INSIDE Las Noches. The dome itself was filled with either magic or science of both which allowed to control the insides at will from a central room, just like Gin and Tousen were able to manipulate what paths lead to who and be able to watch the intruder's actions or communicate with each other instantly.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    We don't need to ask the scientific community about how space/dimension bending and creating works in a manga. We have seen ichigo physically break a dimension even though at this point he is still pretty tri-dimensional and we have seen grimmjow bend space, the stuff dimensions are at large made off. The manga has already crapped on every notion of what space is and how it works in the real world, the comparison is at large pointless.
    No, pointless is trying to make you understand such a simple concept. You can keep trying to think with your biceps though.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...3-page-13.html
    As far as the manga has said blutz vene and arterie cannot be balanced at all. Until this manga hints otherwise this is a fact.
    You are picking what Urahara concluded as a fact but ignoring what an actual Quincy said:

    "With my Blut Vene at full power I can't switch to Blut Arteria"
    And from other translations:
    But with my Blut Vene at full power, I can't switch over to my Blut Arterie!!
    But while I'm focusing all my energy on Blut Vene, I'm unable to use Blue Arterie!
    (But I can’t switch into Blut Arterie* with Blut Vene in its fully engaged state!!)

    "While it's at full power I can't switch" heavily implies that it was because he was so busy being defensive that he couldn't switch, and that it's otherwise possible to use them both.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    When ichigo fought nnoitora not even once nnoitora even bothered to try against him. The manga made a point of showing nnoitora was simply toying around with nel and ichigo and that neither ever had so much of a shred of a chance of winning. Nel just got an actual upperhand from releasing however if she had faced nnoitora's resurreccion she would have had her ass royally handed to her.
    Did he now? He used underhanded methods and waited until Ichigo was half dead to fight him. Even then Ichigo didn't really have any trouble keeping up even though he was hardly breathing. Nnoitra also cheated to get easy hits on him. And against Nel he said he was playing even though he did get cut real good and couldn't really push her back even when he was actually attacking seriously.

    Nnoitra wasn't superior to Nel, simply because it helped his character. He loved to talk big and you should stop taking everything they say to make themselves feel better so literally.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    If nnoitora had actually tried against them both of them would have died.
    Ichigo would be dead because he already was half dead and much slower and weaker. Neliel would have ended in a draw. Nnoitra actually surpassing her would be detrimental to his development.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Nnoitora is plainly not as incompetent as you make him out to be and while kenpachi does not actually know how to fight he more than makes up for it with the absurd amount of reiatsu he has. The rule of thumb in bleach is that when two reiatsu's clash the weaker one gets hurt. Kenpachi is nothing but a huge mass of reiatsu and that is in fact enough in this case.
    That rule is not an absolute. Kenpachi vs Nnoitra was a close fight because both were incompetent in everything but brute force. And bringing that rule of reiatsu just killed your argument because in a straight fight Ginjo with all that reiatsu he got from Ichigo's power would grind Kenpachi into small meat cubes no matter how they fought.
    This might come in handy. Maybe one in more analysis to come:

    The Thousand Year Blood War buildup and recap:
    http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showth...=1#post3091160

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    Re: Ginjo VS Zaraki Kenpachi

    Torran, gonna love the persistancy.

    A billion Yamamoto's in bankai all using north at the sametime ain't gonna break the Kototsu (dangai train) or make a Garganta or break a negacion (even though it's used by freakin menos) with brute force. It's simple not possible YET one Aizen (just one) is able to do it (BECAUSE HE BECAME A BEING ABOVE IT'S LOGIC).

    Like Torran said, yall need to stop thinking with your biceps.


    Also about the blut.

    "unless my blut vene is at full power, I won't be able to stop his (Ichigo's) slash speed but with my blut vene at full power, I can't switch over to my blut arterie & attacking without blut arterie is useless against someone is bankai mode!!"

    It sounds like you give & take away when it comes to Blut.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member exacta's Avatar
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    Re: Ginjo VS Zaraki Kenpachi

    Quote Originally Posted by Torran View Post
    Not even close. He has strong reiatsu and knows how to hold a sword, but that's it. His level is abysmal in everything else.
    Ichigo was simply stronger, but even then Ginjo was far beyond the level Ichigo was during the Soul Society arc
    Ginjo wins, no other way to it.
    I don't find a single thing you just said convincing lol. Kenpach is THE Kenpachi, that title is supposed to mean he's the best fighter in SS, obviously when you don't include Yama. Of course, he's not the strongest captain, but he's definitely one of the most dangerous. The story itself acknowledges his strength, it isn't just simply fanservice, it was like that way from the beginning. He doesn't need a Bankai, his reaitsu is nuts. Those 3 SR got owned because Kenpachi outclassed them. They didn't let him kill him, they just stood no chance except for Loyd, and even then Kenpachi won without a scratch. The only one who doesn't find that impressive is you, and apparently your opinion matters more than Haschwalds. You sound so butthurt when it comes to Kenpachi....

    Kenpachi would kill Ginjo, Ginjo is without a doubt the weakest main antagonist of an arc in the whole series, though still strong. Why are you so impressed with Ginjo? He never did anything impressive. He stole Ichigo's GT, that was the only dangeorus technique he had, and it wasn't even his. All he did in his Bankai was fire a cero, and Ichigo blocked it with his barehand. Ginjo only landed a hit on him when he caught him off guard with his GT, Ichigo was mostly unscathed, and did not have a look of desperation on his face once in that fight like he usually does when he's having a semi-hard time. That was one of the easiest fights Ichigo's ever had. Ichigo is very strong, but I can tell he's still not making captain level opponents look like total noobs when he can't one shot Kirge Opie who had to use Sklaverei on Allon. And you seem to completely forget about Ichigo's fight with Kenpachi, that fight was a draw, and Ichigo got a temporary power up from Zangetsu. Ichigo by himself did not have the power to fight a captain at that point, thats why he needed to train with Yoruichi.

    How the hell do you get Ginjo being worlds apart Ichigo in SS? Ginjo has no feats, no hax powers, all he has is a stolen GT and that energy blade move which he doesn't seem to use very much. I really like Ginjo, I think he could fight with a captain, but only the weaker captains would lose to him. What makes Ginjo so strong in your book? Just his status as the main villain of that arc? Kenpachi would win in my opinion, Ginjo has nothing he can do really. Tsukishima would do better even because of his hax. If Ginjo fights Kenpachi sword to sword he'll eventually lose, and I don't see his GT being effective. Kenpachi would just block it with his reiatsu or dodge it.

    And no, that Ichigo Ginjo fight was not long. It was extremely short. It was mostly talking, a good deal of it was other people talking that weren't even in the fight, and Ginjo lost the chapter after he used Bankai, and half of that chapter was the shinigami talking. And you really think Byakuya outclasses Kenpachi? It's pretty obvious that they can fight on par with each other.....
    Last edited by exacta; December 24, 2012 at 08:53 PM.

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    Re: Ginjo VS Zaraki Kenpachi

    Quote Originally Posted by exacta View Post
    I don't find a single thing you just said convincing lol.
    It's like you didn't read my posts and resorted to pure fanboyism as a basis for your arguments. Just when I though the victor of this match had been clearly written in stone.

    Quote Originally Posted by exacta View Post
    Kenpach is THE Kenpachi, that title is supposed to mean he's the best fighter in SS
    That title was once a name given to the best killer and strongest fighter and later became just a name to be passed on. At one point the Kenpachi was whoever won the title or replaced the captain of the squad.

    Quote Originally Posted by exacta View Post
    Of course, he's not the strongest captain, but he's definitely one of the most dangerous.
    He's neither. Not with the strongest reiatsu, not with the most dangerous or destructive abilities, no sword skill or good defense, no training or self control, Kido, Shunpo, applicable intelligence or intuition, nothing. All he has is unrealized potential and years of experience from fighting random hobos in Rukongai.

    Quote Originally Posted by exacta View Post
    The story itself acknowledges his strength, it isn't just simply fanservice, it was like that way from the beginning.
    Kenpachi was the first captain to give a proper fight and his presence has remained with an inflated feeling of excessive strength. As for his actual strength it's just captain level and his reiatsu is above average but still lower than many important characters.

    Aizen even commented about it, how he pitted Ichigo with Kenpachi when he was at that level, and by level I mean just 10 days of basic training and no skill. That inexperienced Ichigo beat Kenpachi badly, and not even 2 hands or taking his eye patch off saved his ass.

    Quote Originally Posted by exacta View Post
    He doesn't need a Bankai, his reaitsu is nuts.
    He hasn't need Bankai so far because he's got lucky in most of his fights.

    Quote Originally Posted by exacta View Post
    Those 3 SR got owned because Kenpachi outclassed them. They didn't let him kill him, they just stood no chance except for Loyd, and even then Kenpachi won without a scratch. The only one who doesn't find that impressive is you,
    Those three Stern Ritter got killed because they were stupid. The first one jumped towards Kenpachi and got sliced in half, the second stood there just talking and got her neck sliced and the third sacrificed every Quincy skill to copy Kenpachi. None of them used Blut Vene or Vollstandig or arrows or even fought except for Loyd, they literally got themselves killed. They were fodder, completely disposable and a mean to inflate Kenpachi's image for the sake of the story, and he was about to lose humiliatingly too. That's some skill, killing three people that might as well just have been standing with their hands tied to their backs.

    Quote Originally Posted by exacta View Post
    and apparently your opinion matters more than Haschwalds.
    First of all, it's a fact, not an opinion, learn the difference. Second, don't ignore the drawings, they are there for a reason, namely to show Haschwalds sarcasm when complimenting Kenpachi.

    Quote Quote:
    Stern Ritter Member:・・・そうか
    …Is that so?
    Stern Ritter Member:化物だと聞いてはいたが
    I’d heard you were a monster
    Stern Ritter Member:・・・成程な
    …But now I see
    Quote Quote:
    ...I see. // I had heard that your strength was monstrous... / ...but still.
    Quote Originally Posted by exacta View Post
    You sound so butthurt when it comes to Kenpachi....
    I love that word, it exemplifies ad hominem so well.

    Quote Originally Posted by exacta View Post
    Kenpachi would kill Ginjo
    He wouldn't. Kenpachi couldn't kill Ichigo, an unskilled, untrained low level fighter standing in firm ground, who didn't even know how to use his Shikai. What makes you think Kenpachi would even touch Ginjo, who stole Ichigo's power, is skilled and has Getsuga Tenshou and transcendental Bankai? Kenpachi objectively stands no chance whatsoever. He's the lowest of the low except when it comes to raw power, and even then it's still just average.

    Quote Originally Posted by exacta View Post
    Why are you so impressed with Ginjo? He never did anything impressive. He stole Ichigo's GT, that was the only dangeorus technique he had, and it wasn't even his.

    How the hell do you get Ginjo being worlds apart Ichigo in SS? Ginjo has no feats, no hax powers, all he has is a stolen GT and that energy blade move which he doesn't seem to use very much.
    Oh, he never did anything impressive? Let me see...

    He stole Ichigo's power, which gave him the strength to fight head on with him. And Ichigo wasn't just a captain level after regaining his power, no, he's a complete monster and easily 5 to 10 times stronger in just Shikai than he ever was in Bankai + Mask. Kenpachi couldn't stand against an Ichigo fighting with just reiatsu, he won't stand up against 10 times that in just Shikai or 100 times that in Bankai. And guess what? That reiatsu has also increased by a lot.

    And what's more? A mere Getsuga Tenshou he stole? Ichigo didn't even use Getsuga Tenshou to beat Kenpachi, and now that same Getsuga Tenshou is 10 times bigger than it was back in the Soul Society arc. And Ginjo can easily counter those.

    And what else? Oh yes, that whole transcendentality deal. It was confirmed to merge and improve powers and later Ginjo didn't look very different from other fellow Transcendentals like Aizen or the Soul King.

    Oh and that same thing that Ichigo and Aizen were doing with the mere sword pressure annihilating mountains and creating earthquakes applies to Ichigo's fight against Ginjo. That doesn't mean Ichigo is on the same level as Mugetsu, but still.

    So I'm going to turn your logic back at you and ask what has Kenpachi done that shows he can compete against any of them?

    Quote Originally Posted by exacta View Post
    All he did in his Bankai was fire a cero, and Ichigo blocked it with his barehand.
    Because Ichigo has proven to be the strongest. Even among transcendentals he's even higher, even as a human or normal Shinigami he can sense them.

    Quote Originally Posted by exacta View Post
    Ginjo only landed a hit on him when he caught him off guard with his GT, Ichigo was mostly unscathed, and did not have a look of desperation on his face once in that fight like he usually does when he's having a semi-hard time.
    Because he was hit by his own power, which means of equal strength. Of course it's not going to seriously hurt him but it was still a burn.

    Quote Originally Posted by exacta View Post
    That was one of the easiest fights Ichigo's ever had.
    And he had an even easier fight against Aizen.

    Quote Originally Posted by exacta View Post
    Ichigo is very strong, but I can tell he's still not making captain level opponents look like total noobs when he can't one shot Kirge Opie who had to use Sklaverei on Allon.
    He could have killed Quilgue at any moment but he wanted to get information out of him. It was made very clear.

    And Quilgue was very strong, but was caught off guard by Allon, whom he didn't have in the Daten. And just after mentioning Blutz he fixed himself right away.

    Quote Originally Posted by exacta View Post
    And you seem to completely forget about Ichigo's fight with Kenpachi, that fight was a draw
    Ichigo fell from his injuries but remained conscious, Kenpachi lost consciousness, got his sword cut in half and died, later revived by Inoue. Ichigo won.

    Quote Originally Posted by exacta View Post
    and Ichigo got a temporary power up from Zangetsu.
    Temporary? That was energy Ichigo always had but didn't know how to use.

    Quote Originally Posted by exacta View Post
    Ichigo by himself did not have the power to fight a captain at that point, thats why he needed to train with Yoruichi.
    Ichigo was fighting by himself while Zangetsu was healing the gaping hole in his chest, he was pushing Kenpachi back and cutting him all over.

    Quote Originally Posted by exacta View Post
    I really like Ginjo, I think he could fight with a captain, but only the weaker captains would lose to him.
    Ginjo could fight and mow down the captains that went to Ichigo's aid by himself. And weaker captains? There's no weaker captains.

    Quote Originally Posted by exacta View Post
    What makes Ginjo so strong in your book? Just his status as the main villain of that arc?
    I have already answered that question multiple times in this thread and twice to you.

    Quote Originally Posted by exacta View Post
    Kenpachi would win in my opinion
    Well, if that's your opinion. Ginjo would turn Kenpachi into pieces so small that an entire new definition would be necessary for that size, and that's a fact.

    Quote Originally Posted by exacta View Post
    Ginjo has nothing he can do really.
    Even if Ginjo was just captain level or lower he could just float and use his Cross of Scaffold ability and win. What is Kenpachi, an unskilled short range fighter going to do? Kill him with his eyesight? Throw his sword at him? You know what? Throwing his sword might work, if Ginjo stayed there.

    Quote Originally Posted by exacta View Post
    Tsukishima would do better even because of his hax
    He would do worse with his hax. All he can do is rise to the exact level of his opponent by introducing himself in their past. And I doubt Kenpachi would ever come to respect or fear Tsukishima, or something that would affect his mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by exacta View Post
    If Ginjo fights Kenpachi sword to sword he'll eventually lose, and I don't see his GT being effective. Kenpachi would just block it with his reiatsu or dodge it.
    Replace Yamamoto with Ginjo and Allon with Kenpachi trying to block his Getsuga Tenshou. That's the result of the fight.

    Quote Originally Posted by exacta View Post
    And no, that Ichigo Ginjo fight was not long. It was extremely short. It was mostly talking, a good deal of it was other people talking that weren't even in the fight, and Ginjo lost the chapter after he used Bankai, and half of that chapter was the shinigami talking.
    The fight was made out of parts of 6 chapters, which is pretty long for a 50 chapter arc, and as long or longer than some other fights.

    Quote Originally Posted by exacta View Post
    And you really think Byakuya outclasses Kenpachi? It's pretty obvious that they can fight on par with each other.....
    It's pretty obvious they can't. What is Kenpachi going to do against millions of invisible blades attacking from every direction? Or in a sword fight against a very skilled and more powerful swordsman? Or against his superior speed? Or against Kido? Nothing. He loses straight away. Fillers are just fan-pandering bullcrap and should never have been made.
    This might come in handy. Maybe one in more analysis to come:

    The Thousand Year Blood War buildup and recap:
    http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showth...=1#post3091160

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    Re: Ginjo VS Zaraki Kenpachi

    Ginjou is featless stop typing nonsense..
    Kenpachi beats him low difficulty ...Same way Ichigo did.

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    Re: Ginjo VS Zaraki Kenpachi

    Quote Originally Posted by XXGenesis View Post
    Ginjou is featless stop typing nonsense..
    Kenpachi beats him low difficulty ...Same way Ichigo did.
    Such a well written and though out rebuttal to my argument. You win. Kenpachi would kill Ginjo with ease! After all, how would somebody who lost so easily to Ichigo stand a chance against Kenpachi?

    YOU ARE WRONG. GINJO WOULD ANNIHILATE KENPACHI WITH EASE AND THAT'S THE END OF THE DISCUSSION. IT'S LITERALLY IMPOSSIBLE TO COME UP WITH A REASON WHY KENPACHI WOULD STAND A CHANCE.
    This might come in handy. Maybe one in more analysis to come:

    The Thousand Year Blood War buildup and recap:
    http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showth...=1#post3091160

  20. #30
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    Re: Ginjo VS Zaraki Kenpachi

    Quote Originally Posted by Torran View Post
    Such a well written and though out rebuttal to my argument. You win. Kenpachi would kill Ginjo with ease! After all, how would somebody who lost so easily to Ichigo stand a chance against Kenpachi?

    YOU ARE WRONG. GINJO WOULD ANNIHILATE KENPACHI WITH EASE AND THAT'S THE END OF THE DISCUSSION. IT'S LITERALLY IMPOSSIBLE TO COME UP WITH A REASON WHY KENPACHI WOULD STAND A CHANCE.
    Why would I waste my time writing in detail why Ginjou was the weakest villain to a noob that is bringing up false info from hundreds of chapters ago......-_-.

    Hating on Kenpachi it's ok he has many haters....Ginjou fanboy don't understand it since he's featless!!...He burns Ichigo a lil bit with a GT, and gives him minor wounds with his Bankia....Lmao easiest win for Ichigo no black GT even needed.

    I'm not even responding to you after this cause you obviously have a comprehension disorder. Kenpachi owns low Diff....as with any other captain would destroy him.

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