Not a member? Register now!
Announcements
Manga returns! Catch up with the details. Enjoy downloading, translating, and scanlating manga HERE legally!
Like us on Facebook, follow us on Twitter! Celebrate another year with MH and read our yearbook.
Manga News: Check out this week's new manga (6/30/14 - 7/6/14).
Forum News: Visit new sections for Nisekoi and Kingdom!
Translations: One Piece 752 by cnet128 , Bleach 587 (2) , Gintama 501 by Bomber D Rufi

View Poll Results: Who is the strongest?

Voters
17. You may not vote on this poll
    The results in this poll are hidden.
  • Tezuka Kunimitsu

    The results are hidden 0%
  • Yukimura Seiichi

    The results are hidden 0%
  • Sanada Gen'ichirou

    The results are hidden 0%
  • Echizen Ryoma

    The results are hidden 0%
  • Irie Kanata

    The results are hidden 0%
  • Oni Juujirou

    The results are hidden 0%
  • Ochi Tsukimitsu

    The results are hidden 0%
  • Niou Masaharu

    The results are hidden 0%
  • Tooyama Kintarou

    The results are hidden 0%
  • Atobe Keigo

    The results are hidden 0%
  • Mouri Jusaburou

    The results are hidden 0%
  • Fuji Shuusuke

    The results are hidden 0%
Thread Closed
Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 53

Thread: [Bonus Round] Singles 1

  1. #16
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Country
    United States
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    2,151
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: [Bonus Round] Singles 1

    Quote Originally Posted by Fayte View Post
    Sanada. I mean, Black Aura is fair game whereas PoP isn't, so.... obviously.
    If Black Aura is just a stat upgrade it can't even overcome World of Ice let alone Atobe Kingdom, though I'm inclined to agree with the fanfiction explanation of "Black Aura prevents vision tech". I mean, it actuall makes a lot of sense that if you're surrounded by this tangible aura of blackness you shouldn't be able to x-ray vision your way through the aura.

  2. #17
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Fayte's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Country
    United States
    Age
    25
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    1,758
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: [Bonus Round] Singles 1

    Quote Originally Posted by Phantron View Post
    If Black Aura is just a stat upgrade it can't even overcome World of Ice let alone Atobe Kingdom, though I'm inclined to agree with the fanfiction explanation of "Black Aura prevents vision tech". I mean, it actuall makes a lot of sense that if you're surrounded by this tangible aura of blackness you shouldn't be able to x-ray vision your way through the aura.
    Your logic is so foreign to me. All auras are stat upgrades. PoP included. All an aura does is raise your tier/overall ability level. That's it. It doesn't matter what aura it is. I find it absolutely absurd to say that Black Aura merely "makes people not see good." Not only does that not make sense in light of the fact Yukimura was able to SEE Sanada within the aura, but it also does not explain why Sanada's shot was so fast that it was able to rip Yukimura's headband in half, and proceed to put a hole in the fence. Sorry, I ain't buying that one.

    Also, I guess I still have not said this enough:

    World of Ice DOES NOT effect Sanada due to SHADOW. WoI is "insight based." Insight does not work on Sanada anymore, hence why Saiki (which is way better than Atobe's insight) did not work.
    Last edited by Fayte; October 19, 2012 at 10:04 PM.

  3. #18
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Fuji Shusuke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    In the Clouds
    Country
    Australia
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    455
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: [Bonus Round] Singles 1

    @Fayte

    I agree with you about auras boosting stats.

    However, Shadow > World of Ice? I don't think so from your argument.
    I think that you take the word "insight" way too literally. So far in the series there have been 3 "insights". Momo's Calm Insight, SKnK's Brilliant Insight and Atobe's Insight (sight as in eyesight). Shadow > any form of Brilliant Insight (data tennis). Not Shadow > WoI because it is "insight based".

    What do SKnK and World of Ice have in common? SKnK is super data tennis and World of Ice is extreme vision. However, I will agree Shadow > any data tennis.
    "Sorry, but I never lose to the same opponent twice." - Fuji

  4. #19
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Fayte's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Country
    United States
    Age
    25
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    1,758
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: [Bonus Round] Singles 1

    Quote Originally Posted by Fuji Shusuke View Post
    @Fayte

    I agree with you about auras boosting stats.

    However, Shadow > World of Ice? I don't think so from your argument.
    I think that you take the word "insight" way too literally. So far in the series there have been 3 "insights". Momo's Calm Insight, SKnK's Brilliant Insight and Atobe's Insight (sight as in eyesight). Shadow > any form of Brilliant Insight (data tennis). Not Shadow > WoI because it is "insight based".

    What do SKnK and World of Ice have in common? SKnK is super data tennis and World of Ice is extreme vision. However, I will agree Shadow > any data tennis.
    I disagree. Nowhere in the text does it make a distinction (outside of where the focus of that insight is) between any of these. You people are the ones making them all different. Insight is insight. The only difference here is Momo's, which is the observation of the environment around him, which is the same as Fuji. However, both Chitose and Atobe use the observation of the "opponent." Chitose does not get some magical powers to just "know" stuff. His mental game increases dramatically as he observes his opponent in order to "predict" what they will naturally do. He is also able to understand the "strategy" of the opponent (Chitose knew Tachibana purposely hit the ball to his good side). Atobe's insight is no different, because he observes his opponent and looks for patterns in movement. Atobe knew Tezuka's arm was hurting because it was off-pattern. Atobe uses WoI based on "patterns" of movement, and hits to the angles they have never reached for. All insight needs a scientific control pattern to notice a change. All insight requires a pattern, which is why Sanada is invulnerable to it. There is no pattern, therefore making prediction impossible.

  5. #20
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Country
    United States
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    2,151
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: [Bonus Round] Singles 1

    There's a very classic cliche in sports manga about how since the eye cannot see a complete arc in front of you there's some spot that'd appear invisible to your eyes. If you play with an eyepatch you'd have even more blind spots, and it wouldn't even be very hard to figure out where the other guy can't see at all with some experience

    World of Ice is an extreme form of such things. It's the result of putting bogus science together to deduce a blind spot as a intrinsic property of the physical world. Hiding your emotion would do nothing against it. Put it this way, if Sanada starts playing with an eyepatch like he currently does, then there's a rather wide arc he cannot because he has only one eye. World of Ice will reveal wherever he can't see as icicles since you obviously can't return shots you cannot even see at all. You can hide your emotions and whatever but it doesn't change the fact that your blind spot is still exactly the same as what it was before.

    Atobe Kingdom is even more extreme since now he can see your joints and from there he can deduce there's certain angle you cannot possibly swing your racket to and thus hitting to that spot guaranteeds point. Again hiding your thoughts does nothing against it. Atobe can still see your joints through his vision and even if he has no idea what you're thinking, it doesn't change the fact that since your joint can only bend a certain way, you still wouldn't be able to reach the same blind spots.

    As of right now Atobe Kingdom is quite possibly the strongest overall offensive move, with no apparent energy costs to activate and cannot be stopped except for dislocating your joints, which obviously only works once. That said it's a move that relies on supernatural vision (Atobe can literally see the world in x-ray) and it'd be reasonable to say a supernatural black aura prevents the x-rays from working.

  6. #21
    Intl Translator 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Airgrimes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Beika City
    Country
    Marine Headquarters
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    3,263
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: [Bonus Round] Singles 1

    @Fayte
    Momoshiro and Fuji do not have the same insight. Fuji just reads wind.
    Momoshiro read the sun's movement and other things.

    Atobe's Insight has to be different.
    Chitose wasn't shown to be able to return shots that blasted past him.

    Atobe used his Insight to return Mach Serve. Unless you want to tell me Chitose and Momoshiro can handle Mach Serve like Atobe did. Whichi would be nonsense.

  7. #22
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Country
    United States
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    2,151
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: [Bonus Round] Singles 1

    Atobe's prediction mechanism is based on physically observeable things. It's because he can literally see someone's muscles/joint moving he can be 100% sure where the swing is going to end up as. You can't fake muscle/joint movements (at least not yet) and hiding your thoughts/emotions wouldn't do any good against Atobe.

  8. Like 1 Member(s) likes this post
  9. #23
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member ashore's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Country
    United States
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    281
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: [Bonus Round] Singles 1

    would kintaro be able to return mach serve? he's shorter and he has the ability to go wild random mode as long as he can see the ball.

  10. #24
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Fayte's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Country
    United States
    Age
    25
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    1,758
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: [Bonus Round] Singles 1

    Quote Originally Posted by Phantron View Post

    World of Ice is an extreme form of such things. Hiding your emotion would do nothing against it. You can hide your emotions and whatever but it doesn't change the fact that your blind spot is still exactly the same as what it was before.
    *cough Irie cough cough*

    Quote Originally Posted by Phantron
    Atobe Kingdom is even more extreme since now he can see your joints and from there he can deduce there's certain angle you cannot possibly swing your racket to and thus hitting to that spot guaranteeds point. Again hiding your thoughts does nothing against it. Atobe can still see your joints through his vision and even if he has no idea what you're thinking, it doesn't change the fact that since your joint can only bend a certain way, you still wouldn't be able to reach the same blind spots.

    As of right now Atobe Kingdom is quite possibly the strongest overall offensive move, with no apparent energy costs to activate and cannot be stopped except for dislocating your joints, which obviously only works once. That said it's a move that relies on supernatural vision (Atobe can literally see the world in x-ray) and it'd be reasonable to say a supernatural black aura prevents the x-rays from working.
    This is a manga. Do you understand what this means? Atobe is not Echizen, so he will never be the best. That means Atobe can be defeated. That means WoI and AK can be returned, and wow, they both have been returned.

    Quote Originally Posted by Airgrimes
    @Fayte
    Momoshiro and Fuji do not have the same insight. Fuji just reads wind.
    Momoshiro read the sun's movement and other things.
    ...and how are they different again? I said they are the same because BOTH of them read the "environment" as opposed to the "opponent." Momo has read the wind as well (Ch 274 p.03/p.09/p.15). I'm sure you have a greater education than an 8 year old, so you probably know both the sun and the wind have a part in our environment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Airgimes
    Chitose wasn't shown to be able to return shots that blasted past him.
    And Atobe has? lol Let's be real here, the only people who have EVER returned shots that went beyond them are Sanada using Rai, and Echizen using Rai. That's it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Airgrimes
    Atobe used his Insight to return Mach Serve. Unless you want to tell me Chitose and Momoshiro can handle Mach Serve like Atobe did. Whichi would be nonsense.
    Atobe using his insight to return Mach is EXACTLY my point. Everyone's definition of Atobe's insight is merely offensive attacks to peoples blind spots. My point is that Atobe's insight is the ability to read his opponent, which also means he can use it DEFENSIVELY, which changes everyone's definitions of insight (except mine). I do not think Chitose can return Mach serve but only because of his tier level. If Chitose had the ability level of Atobe, then yes I believe he can handle it. Also, I don't know why you brought Momoshiro into this when I specifically said he doesn't read his opponent, but the environment.

  11. #25
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member -Ken-'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Country
    Thailand
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    2,153
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: [Bonus Round] Singles 1

    Quote Originally Posted by Fayte View Post
    And Atobe has? lol Let's be real here, the only people who have EVER returned shots that went beyond them are Sanada using Rai, and Echizen using Rai. That's it.
    On top of my head, Kintarou have, for sure.
    Most of the thing I post is probably assumption if it's not a fact that I support using some evidence from the manga.

    If you knows you're on my ignore list and you quote my post, there's high chance I would ignore you. Or answer you and not look at your response.

  12. Like 1 Member(s) likes this post
  13. #26
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted FrostyMouse's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Country
    Holy Britannian Empire
    Age
    23
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    5,440
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: [Bonus Round] Singles 1

    Fayte, there's nothing to say that In stops KnS. Rai stops KnS. Stop reaching here. I know you love Sanada, but your fanboyism is getting a bit over the top.

  14. Thanks 1 Member(s) thanked this post
  15. #27
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Fayte's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Country
    United States
    Age
    25
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    1,758
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: [Bonus Round] Singles 1

    Quote Originally Posted by FrostyMouse View Post
    Fayte, there's nothing to say that In stops KnS. Rai stops KnS. Stop reaching here. I know you love Sanada, but your fanboyism is getting a bit over the top.
    No. Everyone else is guilty of trying to make "In" and "WoI" into something it isn't. It isn't fanboyism, and the fact you have resorted to using that as your argument only shows you have no argument. Yukimura specifically says "BY MASKING THE USER'S WEAKNESSES." Everyone completely ignores that whole first part of the technique, just so they can read the behavior patterns thing and proceed to kiss Atobe's ass. Not me. I stick with the facts.

  16. #28
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Country
    United States
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    2,151
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: [Bonus Round] Singles 1

    The only case of AK being returned involved someone dislocating his joints. That is only going to work once.

    When Atobe used AK he says that Irie uses speed, flexibility, angle of view, and reflex to hide his blind spots. Not that none of thse has anything to do with what Irie is thinking. Atobe has never been someone who tried to figure out what the other guy is thinking anyway. Once Atobe use AK, he says he'll just have to attack blind spots as a function of bone structure or joint location. That is, you can't use reflex or speed on your bones because they're rigid, so if he sees that your joint is pointed this way and can't hit spot X, it has to work because to hit the ball would literally involve dislocating your bones.

    If you take WoI versus Zan, we see that Sanada has only one blind spot. Let's say you start with Sanada's base stats so you only have one icicle to deal with, let's look at how these described tactics can deal with it.

    Speed - If you look at someone like Ryoma who starts with a ton of icicles, obviously some of those spots are where he can't reach on time. But if you're faster, there's going to be less blind spots as a function of your speed.

    Flexibilty - People who do yoga can bend further than people who do not. Maybe the icicle points toward a spot that'd be difficult for a normal person to reach but not someone who is extremely flexible.

    Angle of view - Perhaps it's a blind spot simply because you were looking at the wrong way.

    Reflex - Take a page out of Fuji's book and hit the ball without seeing it.

    Note that all these ways to deal with WoI has nothing to do with mind games. They're physical action your oppoent can do that basically breaks the icicles. We know Irie is capable of all these since he has no icicles.

    But AK attacks stuff that can't just become more flexible (joints & bones). He's clearly hitting the ball to a spot where the only way to hit it requires dislocating your joints, so reflex won't do you any good here.

  17. #29
    MangaHelper 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Kaoz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Country
    Germany
    Age
    23
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    3,046
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: [Bonus Round] Singles 1

    Regarding the whole KnS vs In business, apparently the line Fayte quoted is a mistranslation.

    Quote Quote:
    Sai: KnS freezes an instance in time to see where your blind spots are
    Sai: In makes it so Sanada sends out several attack patterns at once so you can't read what he will do next
    Sai: KnS doesn't rely on predicting Sanada's next movements
    Sai: it makes it so Sanada can't even react to the ball
    Sai: he can't perceive it
    Kaoz: Fayte cited the first statement Yukimura made when describing In "It masks his weaknesses"
    Sai: no, I don't believe that's what the words say
    Kaoz: I checked the translated page, it does say that there
    Kaoz: "By masking the user's weakness and displaying several behaviour patterns, [...]"
    Sai: I have the book in front of me
    Sai: "This is another one of his sealed ultimate techniques...[IN]......
    Sai: Without a moment's hesitation, various movement patterns are sent out. It's similar to why [Saiki] can't read the opponent when used in Doubles.
    Kaoz: that's what Yukimura says or..?
    Sai: That's what Yuki says
    I hope this clears things up a bit.

  18. Like 1 Member(s) likes this post
  19. #30
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Fuji Shusuke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    In the Clouds
    Country
    Australia
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    455
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: [Bonus Round] Singles 1

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaoz View Post
    Sai: Without a moment's hesitation, various movement patterns are sent out. It's similar to why [Saiki] can't read the opponent when used in Doubles.
    So it's confirmed that Saiki cannot be used in doubles due to extra movement patterns?
    "Sorry, but I never lose to the same opponent twice." - Fuji

Thread Closed
Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts