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  • Kabuto

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  • Minato/Jman

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Thread: Kabuto vs Jiraiya and Minato

  1. #181
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    Re: Kabuto vs Jiraiya and Minato

    Quote Originally Posted by KiSwordsman View Post
    We gather that from the situation. Kabuto spent all that time in sage mode with no apparent worry of a limit to it. I would think that given the circumstances and his opponents, if He had a time limit, he would have not wasted time trying to talk to the Uchiha brothers. Not to mention the Time he spent after the battle was over still in sage mode. You're right the manga says nothing. It just explains Jugo's clan ability and then later gives us a page with all the ingredients to Kabuto's DNA soup. Jugo of course being on that page with everyone else.

    Side note: This feels like the "Danzo doesn't have Kotoamatsukami" situation all over again. lol

    We saw Kabuto like once after the initial augmentation and he seemed pretty out of it then. The rest of his ordeal was off screen so we have no idea what happened or how he delt with and overcame all that he had done to himself. We do know that he mastered the sage powers and we know that with mastery comes proper balance. If he can properly balance the power why would he go berserk?

    the source of Jugo's clan ability originated from the dragon cave which is where Kabuto trained to master sage mode. So why are you treating it like it's two separate things?
    The thing is, naruto's sage mode can't last for 5 minutes. But it doesn't mean that he'll lose his sage chakra if he use it or not for 5 minutes. His sage mode would last for 1 hour/day if he wouldn't use his senjutsu chakra.

    So it goes the same for kabuto, talking to the uchiha's brother wouldn't cost him a senjutsu chakra. His sage mode isn't some sort of a timing bomb that would stop/explode/gone after his limit time. His sage chakra would remain inside of his body until he use it.

    Gathering/absorbing natural energy takes time. Mixing of spiritual energy, physical energy and natural energy can't happen in an instant. That's why it needs a proper balance and concentration. That's the reason why jugo's clans go berserk. They can't control/balance their natural energy. Now, kabuto already perfected that ability, so he can't absorb the natural energy like jugo's because he needs to concentrate and to balance the physical, mental/physical and the natural energy. ( I don't know if it's physical and mental or physical and spiritual).

    And if he can gather a natural energy like jugo, why the heck he goes inside of his snake to gather a senjutsu chakra? And when he came out from snake's mouth, he already become a sage mode to fight the uchiha's bro's.

  2. #182
    MH Senpai 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Uchiha_Blood's Avatar
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    Re: Kabuto vs Jiraiya and Minato

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    @Uchiha_Blood

    So belly snake can draw in and balance Sage chakra when Naruto needed a ton of training to do so? Oh no...
    Just like Ma and Pa can
    Also we know all about the belly snake. I remember him being a big part of Kabuto's flashback, where he explained all about it

  3. #183
    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity KiSwordsman's Avatar
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    Re: Kabuto vs Jiraiya and Minato

    Quote Originally Posted by marshall313 View Post
    The thing is, naruto's sage mode can't last for 5 minutes. But it doesn't mean that he'll lose his sage chakra if he use it or not for 5 minutes. His sage mode would last for 1 hour/day if he wouldn't use his senjutsu chakra.

    So it goes the same for kabuto, talking to the uchiha's brother wouldn't cost him a senjutsu chakra. His sage mode isn't some sort of a timing bomb that would stop/explode/gone after his limit time. His sage chakra would remain inside of his body until he use it.

    Gathering/absorbing natural energy takes time. Mixing of spiritual energy, physical energy and natural energy can't happen in an instant. That's why it needs a proper balance and concentration. That's the reason why jugo's clans go berserk. They can't control/balance their natural energy. Now, kabuto already perfected that ability, so he can't absorb the natural energy like jugo's because he needs to concentrate and to balance the physical, mental/physical and the natural energy. ( I don't know if it's physical and mental or physical and spiritual).

    And if he can gather a natural energy like jugo, why the heck he goes inside of his snake to gather a senjutsu chakra? And when he came out from snake's mouth, he already become a sage mode to fight the uchiha's bro's.
    @xXan Replied to the Danzo stuff in the Hangout thread


    No Sir Naruto's sage mode was given a time limit regardless of if he used jutsu or not. That's the whole reason using Rasenshuriken twice would deplete it. In Regard to your earlier post, you are correct, the whole Reason that Jugo's clan went berserk was because they couldn't control it. Kabuto can control it, thusly no random fits of rage.

    Even with Jugo, the amount of Natural energy he absorbs isn't always consistant. I say that because he doesn't always lose control of himself. If Kabuto can actually control it unlike Jugo, it would be even less of a factor for him. But he manly did that to gain distance between himself and the brothers. we all no sharingan genjutsu are kind of a hard thing to get past

    I realize I skipped over some of your points. I'll address them after I get some sleep.

  4. #184
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    Re: Kabuto vs Jiraiya and Minato

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    Just like Ma and Pa can
    Also we know all about the belly snake. I remember him being a big part of Kabuto's flashback, where he explained all about it
    Ma/Pa are sentient frogs. Elder Sage Frogs.. Just like the snake sage from who Kabuto learned SM... If that was the snakes on his belly then yeah i could understand but comparing that snake to Ma/Pa... Come on...

  5. #185
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    Re: Kabuto vs Jiraiya and Minato

    Quote Originally Posted by marshall313 View Post
    No, the manga never said that kabuto has jugo's DNA. And does kabuto gather senjutsu chakra away from itachi and sasuke? And why would orochumaru failed to become a sage snake if he can just took jugo's ability/dna? He needs a durable body right? A body that suit for the sage mode. So you can't become a sage mode just because you took jugo's DNA.
    Kabuto asks Sasuke did he want to know what he did to another friend (Juugo) right after mentioning the taking of Suigetsu and Karin's Dna, we then later saw Kabuto gathering said Dna from all his future implants. Um, perhaps because he had yet to get said body after Kimimaro became sick and Sasuke rebelled? It was a pretty important plot point, how because the Sound Five had been so late in bring back Sasuke that Orochimaru had to resort to a weaker body, which began to fail on him as time went on. Even still, he was still capable of using natural energy through the CS. Becoming Sage =/= Juugo's Dna, but the ability to passively gather natural energy does. They're not mutually exclusive powers.

    Quote Originally Posted by marshall313 View Post
    Kabuto did stated that jugo's ability was to passively absorb natural energy, but that's exactly the reason why he goes berserk. He can't control his senjutsu chakra/natural energy. Kabuto and oro did a research on jugo's clans power, and they found that the source of that power, which is the ryuchidou. And kabuto did trained himself to have the ability like jugo's, to gather a natural energy to become a sage mode.

    So, kabuto didn't actually took jugo's DNA to obtain his ability to absorb natural energy, but he rather found out that source of his power, he trained himself to control that power, and he obtain its perfect form, the sage mode.

    But does it mean he can absorb the natural energy like jugo? I doubt it.
    Can he absorb natural energy while moving? I don't think so.

    Kabuto already perfected jugo's ability. And I doubt he can gather a natural energy while moving like jugo's imperfect sage mode.
    Not sure what's so hard to understand. He took Juugo's passive ability to gather natural energy and then went on to train in order to not go berserk like Juugo, just like the users of the CS were capable of training to better control it. Without taking Juugo's Dna, Kabuto would be limited like Naruto and Jiraiya in gathering natural energy, whereas with Juugo's Dna he can freely use it without having to physically gather it.

    And we saw him gathering natural energy while moving. He merged into a bunch a snakes and transformed while also talking to the brothers.

  6. #186
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    Re: Kabuto vs Jiraiya and Minato

    Why are we using the horns as proof that Kabuto can be hurt? I highly doubt he can liquify the horns or his face (assumption, since I don't remember). I doubt Kabuto even cared about the horns to bother healing it.

    Nothing stops Kabuto from using Tayuya's ability to put Jiraiya and Minato in genjutsu. We saw it took Jiraiya a long time to summon Ma and Pa, and get into Sage Mode. For all we know, it takes him a while to summon Ma and Pa as well, so by the time both come out, Minato and Jiraiya are already in sound genjutsu and killed, or swallowed by Kabuto.

    EVen if Jiraiya summons every single frogs there are, they can still be hit with Tayuya's genjutsu, or Kabuto can even amp his defense with Kimimaro's bones. I doubt Minato can get close enough to Kabuto and plant a tag on him. Even if he did, if Kabuto realizes it he can use Oral Rebirth.

  7. #187
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    Re: Kabuto vs Jiraiya and Minato

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    Kabuto asks Sasuke did he want to know what he did to another friend (Juugo) right after mentioning the taking of Suigetsu and Karin's Dna, we then later saw Kabuto gathering said Dna from all his future implants. Um, perhaps because he had yet to get said body after Kimimaro became sick and Sasuke rebelled? It was a pretty important plot point, how because the Sound Five had been so late in bring back Sasuke that Orochimaru had to resort to a weaker body, which began to fail on him as time went on. Even still, he was still capable of using natural energy through the CS. Becoming Sage =/= Juugo's Dna, but the ability to passively gather natural energy does. They're not mutually exclusive powers.

    Not sure what's so hard to understand. He took Juugo's passive ability to gather natural energy and then went on to train in order to not go berserk like Juugo, just like the users of the CS were capable of training to better control it. Without taking Juugo's Dna, Kabuto would be limited like Naruto and Jiraiya in gathering natural energy, whereas with Juugo's Dna he can freely use it without having to physically gather it.

    And we saw him gathering natural energy while moving. He merged into a bunch a snakes and transformed while also talking to the brothers.
    No. The CS is different. It's like orochimaru put some sealing curse to his experimental pigs to absorb natural energy with a limitation.

    And I think it's purely an assumption that kabuto can gather a natural energy while moving. Pa's frog statement contradicting that assumption of yours. He clearly stated that gathering of natural energy needs a concentration and balance. Because you're just not absorbing that natural energy, you also needs to balance the other energy inside of your body to create a new form of chakra, the senjutsu chakra.

    And no, kabuto isn't gathering his senjutsu chakra while moving, you forgetting something that itachi even said that there's alot of snakes and he can't determine where's kabuto. Why? Because kabuto was absorbing his senjutsu chakra inside of his snake's belly while hiding from itachi and sasuke.
    Last edited by marshall313; November 05, 2012 at 07:08 PM.

  8. #188
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    Re: Kabuto vs Jiraiya and Minato

    Holy shit, I just realized something...

    What makes Juugo go crazy? Overabundance of natural energy. Who used to calm him down when he turned homicidal? Sasuke. "I'll be your prison." he said. And how did he do it? That's right: Genjutsu. Sasuke turned off Juugo's access to natural energy... with Genjutsu.

    I think you all know what I'm implying.

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  10. #189
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    Re: Kabuto vs Jiraiya and Minato

    Quote Originally Posted by ninjabot View Post
    Holy shit, I just realized something...

    What makes Juugo go crazy? Overabundance of natural energy. Who used to calm him down when he turned homicidal? Sasuke. "I'll be your prison." he said. And how did he do it? That's right: Genjutsu. Sasuke turned off Juugo's access to natural energy... with Genjutsu.

    I think you all know what I'm implying.
    Hey ninjabot, is it possible for you to post the page where it is said that the natural energy is causing him to go homicidal? I thought he just had a psychological problem, and Sasuke could use genjutsu to calm him down. As Juugo did not actually want to hurt anyone else (as he did turn himself into Orochimaru to protect others), he would quickly release all his natural energy on purpose.
    Infinite RAGE!

  11. #190
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    Re: Kabuto vs Jiraiya and Minato

    Quote Originally Posted by marshall313 View Post
    No. The CS is different. It's like orochimaru put some sealing curse to his experimental pigs to absorb natural energy with a limitation.
    No it's not, as you said, it was Orochimaru granting people limited methods of powering up using natural energy. Most of them had no control over it, while only a few had the prefect control to use it without fully transforming. We were told how that was an impressive skill.

    Quote Originally Posted by marshall313 View Post
    And I think it's purely an assumption that kabuto can gather a natural energy while moving. Pa's frog statement contradicting that assumption of yours. He clearly stated that gathering of natural energy needs a concentration and balance. Because you're just not absorbing that natural energy, you also needs to balance the other energy inside of your body to create a new form of chakra, the senjutsu chakra.
    Except Pa was already shown wrong/unknowing when it was revealed beforehand that Juugo's ability enables him to do just that, gather natural energy while moving. why exactly do you think they introduced said ability right then if it wasn't gonna be a factor there?

    Quote Originally Posted by marshall313 View Post
    And no, kabuto isn't gathering his senjutsu chakra while moving, you forgetting something that itachi even said that there's alot of snakes and he can't determine where's kabuto. Why? Because kabuto was absorbing his senjutsu chakra inside of his snake's belly while hiding from itachi and sasuke.
    Except Kabuto wasn't in a snake's belly, he had transformed into a bunch of snakes. So how could he have equally gather natural energy while divided and balanced it in such a state. Again, you're ignore the entire reason Juugo's ability was even mentioned in this context.

    Quote Originally Posted by zimbardo View Post
    Hey ninjabot, is it possible for you to post the page where it is said that the natural energy is causing him to go homicidal? I thought he just had a psychological problem, and Sasuke could use genjutsu to calm him down. As Juugo did not actually want to hurt anyone else (as he did turn himself into Orochimaru to protect others), he would quickly release all his natural energy on purpose.
    Kabuto explained it to Sasuke and Itachi during their battle.

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  13. #191
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    Re: Kabuto vs Jiraiya and Minato

    Thanks for that RK, must have skipped over that when I read it ages ago!
    Infinite RAGE!

  14. #192
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    Re: Kabuto vs Jiraiya and Minato

    Quote Originally Posted by ninjabot View Post
    Holy shit, I just realized something...

    What makes Juugo go crazy? Overabundance of natural energy. Who used to calm him down when he turned homicidal? Sasuke. "I'll be your prison." he said. And how did he do it? That's right: Genjutsu. Sasuke turned off Juugo's access to natural energy... with Genjutsu.

    I think you all know what I'm implying.
    Wow. That's awesome indeed.

    When naruto goes to sage mode, iruka turned off naruto's access to natural energy by saying...... I think of you as my brother.

    So, should we assume iruka has the ability to stop naruto's sage mode? Holly Molly. It's more awesome than sasuke's genjutsu, if you ask me.

    Jugo go crazy when he absorb natural energy, but it disappeared when his calm.
    Naruto can absorb natural energy when he's angry, but it disappeared when his calm.

    It's almost the same, right? Their natural energy disappeared when they're calm. So, sasuke's genjutsu isn't the reason why jugo's natural energy gone/stopped/turned off. He's just making jugo's to calm a lil' bit. Nothing more, nothing less.

  15. #193
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    Re: Kabuto vs Jiraiya and Minato

    jiraya was a great shinobi and freaking powerful and he was meant to be the godaime hokage but he let tsunade take that position and kishi never showed his great power in a real battle until his fight with pain and it was jiraya's death,... jiraya vs oro, jiraya was drugged up and oro couldn't use his hands ...
    People underestimated jiraya alot to my opinion.
    living in the darkness and now with a new light, i will raise to a new beginning...

  16. #194
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    Re: Kabuto vs Jiraiya and Minato

    It's not a case of Jiraiya being underestimated. This fight isn't one where the one who can hit harder wins. Jiraiya and Minato would first have to figure out his abilities and how to hurt Kabuto before they could actually defeat him, whereas Kabuto simply needs to hit them.

  17. #195
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    Re: Kabuto vs Jiraiya and Minato

    Kabuto has the tools to deal with JIraiya and Minato, just like how Itachi and Sasuke have the tools to deal with JIraiya and Minato as well. It's only because people refuse to admit their favorite will lose that they ignore that.

    Kabuto can affect Minato and Jiraiya with sound vibration, making it difficult for them to concentrate. He can put them in a genjutsu or use Kimimaro to block a lot of attacks. Hell, Kabuto can use Jirobou's jutsu to trap both and suck their chakra out, as long as Minato doesn't have a tag outside.

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