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  • Kabuto

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  • Minato/Jman

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Thread: Kabuto vs Jiraiya and Minato

  1. #331
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted xXan's Avatar
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    Re: Kabuto vs Jiraiya and Minato

    @Rikudou King

    The horn was already turned into puddle mode and into snake form. Then when he turned his inside into water and moved trough Orochimaru snake he was more then able to recreate the horn that he left behind (asuming he did leave it behind and it was not a kawarimi type of stuff). Anyway its obvious he can change anything that is part of his body. There is no reason to belive its not that... Fact is the damn horn got cut because Kabuto had no idea he needs to turn it into puddle mode... He is not instant puddle mode like Suigetsu. He said he needs to turn his inside and bla bla bla. Its not automatic.

    His regen is not automatic. For his own keke he needs to draw chakra and beging the regen himself (like vs Naruto's Rasengan). As for Karin's ability... Remember all the bite marks on her? Yeah she does not get healed like that. She does have special healing ability but its not automatic and it would apear it heals other people.
    His healing is not important as part of the hypothesis i gave, like he get's his brain impaled.

    Now perhaps Suigetsu is better then that Kage, also that Kage was ET mode so who knows. Point is Suigetsu get's hit and he instantly turns into puddle mode, Kabuto does not. He can even get stuck as his snake is not water mode instantly. It slowly starts to go into some type of goo.
    Oh and where did Kabuto stated he ADVANCED Suigetsu's tech? I remember him stating he researched Suigetsu's tech and then developed his OWN. Its his own tech based on Suigetu's ability but it does not mean its works the same way...

    Fact is:

    1-Its a diferent tech then what Suigetsu has so you can't apply that dudes feats. Hell even that Kage you said and does not have the same feats. Perhaps Suigetsu is better at it like Naruto is better at Rasengan then JMan or Minato (bigger and stronger). Some people of the same clan can have stronger keke then others. Some people from the Uchiha for example can even get a sharingan. Some sharingan's are more powerfull and i mean the eyes are stronger and not the jutsu they can use.
    2-It has no feats on Suigetsu's level. If he does not have the time or he does not know he needs to go puddle mode then he get's hit.
    Last edited by xXan; January 30, 2013 at 04:18 AM.

  2. #332
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    Re: Kabuto vs Jiraiya and Minato

    We never got to see Kabuto actually transform with the horn, only the end result. Same with the regeneration, which I considered automatic due to the healing of the divided snake. There would be no real reason to do so while they were divided, when it didn't impact his performance at all. Isn't that the same logic behind the horn argument.

    And the Nidaime shows us that their not all identical, with his version being more oil-like then water-like. So we already have a basis for any minor differences. Being an Edo Tensei shouldn't have changed the way it works, as it hadn't changed the way other techniques works. Kabuto didn't exactly say advance, but that he altered it, which I presumed would have been the same thing. Makes little sense for him to copy Suigetsu's technique and then make it less effective. Especially since it's a secret technique and therefore usable by anyone who knows it.

    The point is, that while Kabuto lacks feats, it's mainly due to the fact that aside from the horn, Kabuto never got a chance to display either his liquid abilities or regeneration in actual battle. It makes much more sense that the horn is an exception then Kabuto lessen the effectiveness of both stolen abilities.
    Last edited by Rikudou King; January 30, 2013 at 11:06 PM.

  3. #333
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted xXan's Avatar
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    Re: Kabuto vs Jiraiya and Minato

    @Rikudou King

    If he can leave behind his HORN, then go puddle mode and move trough the Orochimaru snake and then reform himself ... Well this means he CAN do that with his horn... His regen was never showed to work automatic like Tsunade's. She just needs to activate her seals. A snake healing or whatever when Kabuto is more then concious does not mean he did not make a councious action to activate it. Point is we know that in part 1 he needed to activated it and we know Karin needs to "activate it(in a sense)".
    Quote Quote:
    Nidaime shows us that their not all identical
    Exacly so why would i belive Kabuto has one as powerfull as Suigetu's? Hell Kabuto even states he reserched the CLAN'S ability and not SUIGETSU"S. He did not copy/pasted 100% of Suigetsu's DNA to have the same thing.

    Quote Quote:
    Being an Edo Tensei shouldn't have changed the way it works, as it hadn't changed the way other techniques works.
    I was thinking that he stoped his keke because he did not care if he get's hit. Could be a strain on his mind to keep it up. Of course all hypotetical.

    Quote Quote:
    Kabuto didn't exactly say advance, but that he altered it, which I presumed would have been the same thing. Makes little sense for him to copy Suigetsu's technique and then make it less effective. Especially since it's a secret technique and therefore usable by anyone who knows it.
    He did NOT copy it and he did NOT improve it:
    http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/579/10

    He researched and altered said tech to work for HIM(its even the clan's and not Suigetsu's ability). If i research how a car works and alter the design to my needs it does not mean i create a better car. There is NO indication he created something better. Just that he reaserched how Suigetsu is doing it and considering he does not have the same damn exact DNA as he has he created a version (based on that design) that would work for him. He even bothers to explain that he has to turn his body fluids to do it.

    Quote Quote:
    The point is, that while Kabuto lacks feats, it's mainly due to the fact that aside from the horn, Kabuto never got a chance to display either his liquid abilities or regeneration in actual battle. It makes much more sense that the horn is an exception then Kabuto lessen the effectiveness of both stolen abilities.
    There is no indication the horn is a excetion. Not even 1. The horn is the ONLY TIME he got hit and he did not know he is going to get hit... Do you know what that means? He needs to know he is going to get hit to activate his JUTSU. In part 1 he activated his regen as he noticed the rasengan is going to hit him and not after. Same thing here.
    Kabuto had to POP people out of his arse to use the same identical jutsus those people had. He does not have the same power as other people. Yes he reaserched and created something close to the abilities he stolen but that in no way means he improved them or created something just as powerfull and most defenetly it does not mean he created an ability just as powerfull as the most powerfull members in that clan(in said ability).

    Now to the point Kabuto has feats on Suigetsu's "puddle mode" ability he is not going to turn puddle mode if Minato stabs his brain before he can notice it.
    Last edited by xXan; January 31, 2013 at 01:46 AM.

  4. #334
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    Re: Kabuto vs Jiraiya and Minato

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    If he can leave behind his HORN, then go puddle mode and move trough the Orochimaru snake and then reform himself ... Well this means he CAN do that with his horn... His regen was never showed to work automatic like Tsunade's. She just needs to activate her seals. A snake healing or whatever when Kabuto is more then concious does not mean he did not make a councious action to activate it. Point is we know that in part 1 he needed to activated it and we know Karin needs to "activate it(in a sense)".
    How? Without actually seeing the horn turn liquid when he turns liquid, there's nothing disproving the idea that the horn plays by separate rules. And the snake healing when there was no need to heal it would suggest automatic. Not to mention that Karin doesn't even regenerate.

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    Exacly so why would i belive Kabuto has one as powerfull as Suigetu's? Hell Kabuto even states he reserched the CLAN'S ability and not SUIGETSU"S. He did not copy/pasted 100% of Suigetsu's DNA to have the same thing.
    Because they both share the same ability, negating damage automatically by turning to liquid. The only shown difference between the two Houzuki members is the triggering. Aside from his research of their abilities coming from them directly, Sugetsu's ability is a hidden technique. His Dna isn't required to understand or use the technique.

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    I was thinking that he stoped his keke because he did not care if he get's hit. Could be a strain on his mind to keep it up. Of course all hypotetical.
    If that was the case, then he wouldn't have needed to use his clam's genjutsu too.

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    He did NOT copy it and he did NOT improve it:
    http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/579/10

    He researched and altered said tech to work for HIM(its even the clan's and not Suigetsu's ability). If i research how a car works and alter the design to my needs it does not mean i create a better car. There is NO indication he created something better. Just that he reaserched how Suigetsu is doing it and considering he does not have the same damn exact DNA as he has he created a version (based on that design) that would work for him. He even bothers to explain that he has to turn his body fluids to do it.
    It's a hidden technique. The only requirements to use a hidden technique is to know it. He wouldn't need "exact" Dna or anything. He would just need the signs or whatever was required to activate it, and he would have it. So any alteration would be changing the way the technique normally works, and that presumably would only be done to make it better. Now maybe that's a wide assumption, but it remains that Kabuto simply learning the technique should grant him it's normal abilities.

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    There is no indication the horn is a excetion. Not even 1. The horn is the ONLY TIME he got hit and he did not know he is going to get hit... Do you know what that means? He needs to know he is going to get hit to activate his JUTSU. In part 1 he activated his regen as he noticed the rasengan is going to hit him and not after. Same thing here.
    Kabuto had to POP people out of his arse to use the same identical jutsus those people had. He does not have the same power as other people. Yes he reaserched and created something close to the abilities he stolen but that in no way means he improved them or created something just as powerfull and most defenetly it does not mean he created an ability just as powerfull as the most powerfull members in that clan(in said ability).

    Now to the point Kabuto has feats on Suigetsu's "puddle mode" ability he is not going to turn puddle mode if Minato stabs his brain before he can notice it.
    My point was that there's no evidence either way for the horn and there's no reason to believe that he downgraded the Houzuki's ability. Nor was there a reason to regenerate the snake when he was in that situation. And Kabuto making the Sound Five appear was for design, as he clearly wasn't the actual person and showed beforehand he could use stolen abilities without manifesting the person. Also, pretty sure he improved Karin's healing ability and Orochimaru's ability, not to mention Juugo's ability of absorbing natural energy, and employed the Sound Five's abilities just as well as the original. Given that none of his other abilities were weaker then the source's, why presume that his liquification was? Considering the Nidame Mizukage didn't display the exact same feats as Suigetsu, yet showed the same base ability, that's another reason not to assume that Kabuto's ability is weaken just because he wasn't exactly like Suigetsu.

    And how exactly would Kabuto not turning into a puddle make him vulnerable when he's shown capable of acting with liquefy insides?

  5. #335
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted xXan's Avatar
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    Re: Kabuto vs Jiraiya and Minato

    @Rikudou King

    Quote Quote:
    How? Without actually seeing the horn turn liquid when he turns liquid, there's nothing disproving the idea that the horn plays by separate rules. And the snake healing when there was no need to heal it would suggest automatic. Not to mention that Karin doesn't even regenerate.
    He whent trough the snake and he was into puddle mode... His horn was included... There is nothing to sugest that the horn plays by diferent rules in the first place..
    You don't know if the snake was not needed. I am sure he has his usses for those snakes. For one he could use it to attacks stuff.

    Karin does not have regen power but HE DOES and we already KNOW how it works... Its NOT automatic. He just got a powerup from her (probably). Its her life force. Its probably a combination of what he can do and her life force, he even explains about the "life force" in the next page.

    Quote Quote:
    Because they both share the same ability, negating damage automatically by turning to liquid. The only shown difference between the two Houzuki members is the triggering. Aside from his research of their abilities coming from them directly, Sugetsu's ability is a hidden technique. His Dna isn't required to understand or use the technique.
    No he first need to turn his fluids into puddle or whatever... He is not in that shape constantly... When he used his flash bang he did hat expecialy so he can rezist it. Its not automatic.

    Now unless you have feats from Kabuto to put him on Suigetsu's level then he is NOT.

    Quote Quote:
    If that was the case, then he wouldn't have needed to use his clam's genjutsu too.
    That is diferent. He used it to protect himself by using a summon. He had no "strain" as the clam is doing it.

    Quote Quote:
    It's a hidden technique. The only requirements to use a hidden technique is to know it. He wouldn't need "exact" Dna or anything. He would just need the signs or whatever was required to activate it, and he would have it. So any alteration would be changing the way the technique normally works, and that presumably would only be done to make it better. Now maybe that's a wide assumption, but it remains that Kabuto simply learning the technique should grant him it's normal abilities.
    Its a clan ability. There is no indication that is not a Keke... Where was it stated not to be a Keke?
    Also one knowing a tech does not mean he can do it on the same level as others.

    Quote Quote:
    My point was that there's no evidence either way for the horn and there's no reason to believe that he downgraded the Houzuki's ability. Nor was there a reason to regenerate the snake when he was in that situation. And Kabuto making the Sound Five appear was for design, as he clearly wasn't the actual person and showed beforehand he could use stolen abilities without manifesting the person. Also, pretty sure he improved Karin's healing ability and Orochimaru's ability, not to mention Juugo's ability of absorbing natural energy, and employed the Sound Five's abilities just as well as the original. Given that none of his other abilities were weaker then the source's, why presume that his liquification was? Considering the Nidame Mizukage didn't display the exact same feats as Suigetsu, yet showed the same base ability, that's another reason not to assume that Kabuto's ability is weaken just because he wasn't exactly like Suigetsu.
    Hm? We got puddle guys turning there entire bodies into puddle. There is NO indication that a horn would follow a diferent rules. NONE. There is NO point in this manga where anything like this would be sugested.
    Also what he downgraded and what he did i don't care. Point is we can argue over this all day... He does NOT have the feats to put him on Sugetsu's level. Also its a diferent tech.

    Also if he improved those is not relevant. There is no evidence that he DID. As long as no evidence exists then its irrelevant here in the battle forums. If this was a hypotetical debate in some other sections it would be diferent. Also none of the abilities where showed to be stronger or on the same level as the originals. The only diference is with the people he poped out of his arse but that is a diferent story.

    Normaly i would agree that if Kakashi can use his Raikiri to cut something (even if Raikiri has rank S) then Sasuke can replicate it but here the water mode is not the same damn exact ability as Suigetsu's and not only that even a member of his clan and he did not show the same feats with his ability.
    Sugietsu could be a special case. To the point Kabuto showes he can turn puddle mode automaticly when damage is applied he can't.

    Quote Quote:
    And how exactly would Kabuto not turning into a puddle make him vulnerable when he's shown capable of acting with liquefy insides?
    Assuming his is not puddle mode when he get's hit he get's hit. Asuming its the brain he is out of the fight. Its a reason why he did not stay 100% of the time with his insides in puddle mode, he just made them like that when the need was there.
    Last edited by xXan; February 04, 2013 at 09:36 AM.

  6. #336
    MangaHelper MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Rikudou King's Avatar
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    Re: Kabuto vs Jiraiya and Minato

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    He whent trough the snake and he was into puddle mode... His horn was included... There is nothing to sugest that the horn plays by diferent rules in the first place..
    You don't know if the snake was not needed. I am sure he has his usses for those snakes. For one he could use it to attacks stuff.

    Karin does not have regen power but HE DOES and we already KNOW how it works... Its NOT automatic. He just got a powerup from her (probably). Its her life force. Its probably a combination of what he can do and her life force, he even explains about the "life force" in the next page.
    We didn't see as he went through, the actual transformation, only the end result. The horn remaining broken even after suggest that it plays by different rules. Even if one presumes that the horn didn't automatically turn to liquid, it should have been fixed after turning to water and back to normal. And the snake being healed was not needed, when it was gonna turn liquid soon after. Kabuto claimed he took the regeneration from her.

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    No he first need to turn his fluids into puddle or whatever... He is not in that shape constantly... When he used his flash bang he did hat expecialy so he can rezist it. Its not automatic.

    Now unless you have feats from Kabuto to put him on Suigetsu's level then he is NOT.
    He was solid and liquid at the same time, without any difference in physique. And I can compare Kabuto to the Nidaime Mizukage, who we know has the same ability as Suigetsu.

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    That is diferent. He used it to protect himself by using a summon. He had no "strain" as the clam is doing it.
    He was using the two together, which is the point. If turning liquid caused a strain, then he shouldn't have need his liquid ability while hiding with his genjutsu, especially since all he as doing was hiding. Not to mention, being an Edo summon seems to remove any mental limits from what we saw with Itachi.

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    Its a clan ability. There is no indication that is not a Keke... Where was it stated not to be a Keke?
    Also one knowing a tech does not mean he can do it on the same level as others.
    A technique being unique to a clan doesn't mean it has to be a bloodline technique. Shikamaru, Shino, and Chouji's techniques are all unique to their clans but aren't bloodline limits.

    Spoiler show


    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    Hm? We got puddle guys turning there entire bodies into puddle. There is NO indication that a horn would follow a diferent rules. NONE. There is NO point in this manga where anything like this would be sugested.
    Also what he downgraded and what he did i don't care. Point is we can argue over this all day... He does NOT have the feats to put him on Sugetsu's level. Also its a diferent tech.

    Also if he improved those is not relevant. There is no evidence that he DID. As long as no evidence exists then its irrelevant here in the battle forums. If this was a hypotetical debate in some other sections it would be diferent. Also none of the abilities where showed to be stronger or on the same level as the originals. The only diference is with the people he poped out of his arse but that is a diferent story.

    Normaly i would agree that if Kakashi can use his Raikiri to cut something (even if Raikiri has rank S) then Sasuke can replicate it but here the water mode is not the same damn exact ability as Suigetsu's and not only that even a member of his clan and he did not show the same feats with his ability.
    Sugietsu could be a special case. To the point Kabuto showes he can turn puddle mode automaticly when damage is applied he can't.
    The horn remaining broken despite all that Kabuto did does suggests that. And the point is that there's nothing suggesting he doesn't/isn't capable of the same feats. We have the Nidaime Mizukage's ability acting similar, and we know the two clansmen have the same technique. And we already witness several time the same technique being capable of having different effects.

    Even if there's no proof that he improved them beyond us seeing them improved, it shows that the abilities that he took weren't any weaker then when used by their original hosts. Even if you ignore Suigetsu, we still have the Nidaime Mizukage and that's plenty.

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    Assuming his is not puddle mode when he get's hit he get's hit. Asuming its the brain he is out of the fight. Its a reason why he did not stay 100% of the time with his insides in puddle mode, he just made them like that when the need was there.
    We saw that having his insides liquidiflied without it affecting him being solid. There's no reason he couldn't stay that way, presuming he's not that way anyhow. Not to mention, with Orochimaru's White Snake ability, damage to his "body" means nothing as long as his "true form" survives. Their bodies are just husks.
    Last edited by Rikudou King; February 09, 2013 at 04:44 PM.

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