Not a member? Register now!
Announcements
Manga returns! Catch up with the details. Enjoy downloading, translating, and scanlating manga HERE legally!
Like us on Facebook, follow us on Twitter! Celebrate another year with MH and read our yearbook.
Manga News: Check out this week's new manga (9/8/14 - 9/14/14).
Forum News: Visit new sections for Nisekoi and Kingdom!
Translations: Bleach 595 by cnet128 , Gintama 509 by Bomber D Rufi
New Reply
Page 7 of 8 FirstFirst ... 5 6 7 8 LastLast
Results 91 to 105 of 113

Thread: Unohana's role in current arc

  1. #91
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Country
    Slovakia
    Age
    20
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    1,469
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Unohana is being REALLY useless right now

    Quote Originally Posted by River_Capulet View Post
    Uhmm... not really, this chapter only shows that the only thing held Unohana back was because of Yama's order, she herself also believe that she could have done more. Ppl were talking about how she stayed back as a reserve force or how she was busy (but not shown in the panels). There are no logical reason, even until now why she should stay back there. Sure it's Yama's order, but as long as his intentions aren't revealed, we can still questions her/
    More like we can question Yama's order... I just said there can't be any more bitching about how Unohana didn't do anything to save captains and others.
    Erfworld

    Quote Originally Posted by Bromamura View Post
    Meh can't have Bleach without fan raging, makes it fun.

  2. #92
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Country
    United States
    Age
    26
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    127
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Unohana is being REALLY useless right now

    Quote Originally Posted by 0Xellos View Post
    More like we can question Yama's order... I just said there can't be any more bitching about how Unohana didn't do anything to save captains and others.
    Like you said, Unohana did not do anything, but stood by on Yamaji's orders. That reality has not changed. But his decisions and choices (charging headfirst into Bach simply out of pure rage from seeing his subordinate's bankai being used by the enemy, leaving out Unohana from the field with no clear, legitimate reasons, using his bankai even with the risk of getting it stolen simply based on a pure guess) do make me question, HOW did he remain the commander of gotei 13 for 1000 years.

  3. #93
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member River_Capulet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Country
    Russian Federation
    Age
    20
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    430
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Unohana is being REALLY useless right now

    Quote Originally Posted by 0Xellos View Post
    More like we can question Yama's order... I just said there can't be any more bitching about how Unohana didn't do anything to save captains and others.
    Well, just because it is Yama's order, it doesn't mean that she doesn't has a choice. Remember Uki and Shunsui stood up for what they believe? There's nothing wrong with people accusing Unohana of neglecting her duty, since there were no indication that she was helpful, or unhelpful with good reasons up until this chapter. Now, as you've said, we can simply direct our attention to questioning Yama's order. Yama is not the greatest leader ever in history, so his order can be questioned. If his order is reasonable, than Unohana has done her role well. If it isn't, we can go back and discuss what Unohana should have done.

  4. #94
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Notak's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Country
    Sweden
    Posts
    937
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Unohana is being REALLY useless right now

    Quote Originally Posted by SuperSaiyan4 View Post
    HOW did he remain the commander of gotei 13 for 1000 years.
    Mostly with his massive strength, age, and harsh attitude, I guess. And he had a big role historically in SS.

    Look at Captains, they have plenty of responsibility too, yet we have people like Kenpachi or Hitsugaya in that position.
    They're human too

  5. Thanks 1 Member(s) thanked this post
  6. #95
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Country
    Alderney
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    480
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Unohana is being REALLY useless right now

    I think it has become quite clear that while she wanted to go out and fight, she knew the reason why Yama wanted her to stay. She wanted to go out and fight, but both her and Yama knew it was in the best interest for everybody for the 4th Squad to stay behind. In all-out warfare you don't put the medics on the frontline where they are more likely to get killed. They both knew that with or without the 4th Squad the outcome wouldn't be different. Their battle power isn't that relevant that it would have changed the flow of the battle. Having them be on the battlefield would have meant carnage in that division too. Even Isane knew, but couldn't keep her calm.

  7. Like 2 Member(s) likes this post
  8. #96
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member River_Capulet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Country
    Russian Federation
    Age
    20
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    430
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Unohana is being REALLY useless right now

    Quote Originally Posted by Nieuwsgierig View Post
    I think it has become quite clear that while she wanted to go out and fight, she knew the reason why Yama wanted her to stay. She wanted to go out and fight, but both her and Yama knew it was in the best interest for everybody for the 4th Squad to stay behind. In all-out warfare you don't put the medics on the frontline where they are more likely to get killed. They both knew that with or without the 4th Squad the outcome wouldn't be different. Their battle power isn't that relevant that it would have changed the flow of the battle. Having them be on the battlefield would have meant carnage in that division too. Even Isane knew, but couldn't keep her calm.
    We are assuming Yama's orders right here. We still don't know why he told her to stay there. It could be a very good reason, or it could be a lame one. What if Yama said: "I'm gonna go Bankai and kill all those quincies, you don't need to do anything", does that statement justify her staying at the barrack? Yama was quite confident that he'll be able to kill Bach with his Bankai, so I don't believe he told her to stay because he knew that he would be dead and it doesn't make a difference if she goes out.

    Assuming Royd was the real Bach and Yama successfully kill him (he was quite confident), that would make Unohana staying behind really lame since the strongest SR are already fighting the strongest captains (Yama trashed 4, Kenny 3, Shunsui matched up with a strong one). She should, with her power has no problem with the fodder SR left (Mucha man, Domino).

    Again, I believe that the reason Yama told her to stay behind isn't because she is the medic (this is common sense and a captain of her level would understand that even if there weren't any order) or because it wouldn't make a difference if she goes out. If it were that simple, Unohana and Isane wouldn't be so ambiguous about it. In every work of fiction I've read, the term "last order" always bear significant meaning/reason behind it.
    Last edited by River_Capulet; November 09, 2012 at 09:50 AM.

  9. #97
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    wherever cookies can't get to me...(as if such a place existed...)
    Country
    Galactic Empire
    Posts
    18,730
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Unohana is being REALLY useless right now

    Well, yamamoto's order seems to be actually ancient. Back when the vizards were made yamamoto was also reluctant to send a medic to the scene and would rather send the kido guys (hachi). During the FKT war unohana did not partake in the battle, she was not even considered an offensive asset by aizen and once she got there she simply healed people. Basically yamamoto was of the idea that healing should be done after fighting which is not in itself altogether stupid.

    In this particular case the issue is whether yamamoto was right or not about telling the 4th division to not move. I would argue he was indeed right to make them stay behind. For one thing unohana is at large irreplaceable. What does healing people entail? It means the 4th division was to carry people from the middle of a war zone back to the 4th squad barracks or they would have to perform emergency procedures in the actual middle of a war zone. At large there is another thing which is objectively true for every single squad out there. Only the captain is actually worth a damn in a fight. The VC are only worth something against people of VC caliber however against captain level people the lot of them are basically worthless and utterly incapable of even somewhat tilting the balance of a battle. The most a VC level shinigami could do against a stern rittern is maybe dodge once or twice basically. And even then a VC holds more power than the rest of the entire division. So what would have been the result of the 4th squad shinigami mobilizing? They would have been annihilated. They wouldn't even have to be targeted, they could as easily have died from being close to the raging captain level reiatsus or the huge scale of their attacks. So in the middle of a war zone the only ones that could have possibly actually made a difference are unohana and her VC and perhaps a few seated officers would have been able to not pass out from the reiatsus involved. That said, to what extent did the stern rittern outnumber the shinigami? Against aizen there were in fact more shinigami than arrancar so unohana could take her time healing people but against the stern rittern they were not quite in that position. At the moment there were at best 13 captains and VCs and so far it does not seem like the VCs are in a position to help anyways (maybe renji with his bankai can make a difference but only if volstandig is not a generic trait accross stern ritern). In turn there were at least 27 stern rittern so far (26 letters plus the extra Y) and buckbeard. Unohana and her squad would have placed themselves in danger had they moved.

    Even if they had moved and technically saved lives that could easily get offset if a bunch of 4th squad members get killed. What benefit is in there for the gotei 13 if the 4th squad members save a few dozen lives if a dozen 4th squad members get killed? Not a single one unless of course the shinigami in question has some strategic value to the gotei 13 in which case this applies solely to byakuya and kenpachi however here we have to take in consideration we just don't know to what extent actually going there and bach safely was possible. Could unohana and kotetsu have gone all the way there and back without getting into fights? Would she have had the time to actually do anything there? Kenpachi was very close to where yamamoto and bach were fighting, he was in a specially bad position and halswash was close to them.

  10. Like 2 Member(s) likes this post
  11. #98
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member River_Capulet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Country
    Russian Federation
    Age
    20
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    430
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Unohana is being REALLY useless right now

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Well, yamamoto's order seems to be actually ancient. Back when the vizards were made yamamoto was also reluctant to send a medic to the scene and would rather send the kido guys (hachi). During the FKT war unohana did not partake in the battle, she was not even considered an offensive asset by aizen and once she got there she simply healed people. Basically yamamoto was of the idea that healing should be done after fighting which is not in itself altogether stupid.
    I don't think that Yama has a problem with healing people in the middle of a battle. Remember how he protected Kira when he was healing Momo/Matsu? Where were the 4th division? Behind the CC back was the safest place available, yet we don't see any attempt from the 4th division to assist, instead we had an ex-member.

    Back to Unohana case. Yes, I do think that it's logical for Yama to order Unohana to stay behind (assuming his order was to make sure her squad is unharmed). However, taking in to account that Unohana is the second eldest captain, wouldn't she be able to understand that logic on her own? She's not Yama's vice captain, IMO she is even wiser than Yama in term of decision making. It is ridiculous for Yama to give her an order in which anyone could consider it as common sense, it's like he doesn't trust his eldest captain in decision makings, especially someone as calm as Unohana (who has the lowest chance of blurring her mind with emotions). This is why I believe that Yama's last order was not that simple, it has some bigger reasons behind it, and Unohana understands that.

    Now, assuming Yama's order was to really reserve the healing force until the end of the battle. If so, Yama must be absolutely confident that the shinigami were going to win. In fact, after he killed Discroll, he himself confidently stated that he was going to annihilate all of the SR. Because if he doesn't think that the shinigami were going to win, ordering the 4th squad to stay behind is stupid since the SR will simply dispose them after they defeated all of the captains. It's not like he knows that the SR are going to retreat after a limited time. If the reason behind Yama's order were this simple (I'm going to quickly kill all of them so you can heal people later), then Unohana has every right to disobey that order, doing the wrong thing for the right reasons (lame order, why can't I heal people when all the enemies are focusing on your reiatsu??)

    Now if Yama's order were like this: "I'm not sure what's going to happen to me, I might die. You have to stay behind so that you can help the other captains, you can't risk your life". Then he's effectively doubting his power (which doesn't seems to be the case). Furthermore, as I've said, there're absolutely no ways that he knew that the SR will retreat. If he dies, what would stop the SR from attacking Unohana? and if they attack her division anyway, what good it is ordering them stay behind?

    I'm more for something like this: "I've made a retreat route, only you know about this, you must not risk your life, guide the rest of SS to retreat if we were to lose this war."

  12. #99
    The Original 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member thornofcarrion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    ʕ •ᴥ•ʔ
    Country
    Pakistan
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    11,647
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Unohana is being REALLY useless right now

    Regarding the title of this thread, I don't see Unohana useless in the current invasion. Without her, her squad and her role as a captain, the aftermath of the invasion could be worse in connection with the deaths. There is more to Unohana I am sure. I almost can bet she is one of the characters who will surprise us. What I have been wondering is, were she ordered to stay away from the battle just because she can heal? There must many in squads who have healing abilities. Then, why she was kept away from the battle? She is a captain and an important asset in any war. One of the theory (a big IF) I came up with, may be Yamamoto wanted her to stay away to replace him. I mean, it wouldn't be good if the leader and the ones to replace him also dies. Its just a feeling but I think there is more to her and we will see it eventually.

  13. #100
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member River_Capulet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Country
    Russian Federation
    Age
    20
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    430
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Unohana is being REALLY useless right now

    Quote Originally Posted by thornofcarrion View Post
    Regarding the title of this thread, I don't see Unohana useless in the current invasion. Without her, her squad and her role as a captain, the aftermath of the invasion could be worse in connection with the deaths. There is more to Unohana I am sure. I almost can bet she is one of the characters who will surprise us. What I have been wondering is, were she ordered to stay away from the battle just because she can heal? There must many in squads who have healing abilities. Then, why she was kept away from the battle? She is a captain and an important asset in any war. One of the theory (a big IF) I came up with, may be Yamamoto wanted her to stay away to replace him. I mean, it wouldn't be good if the leader and the ones to replace him also dies. Its just a feeling but I think there is more to her and we will see it eventually.
    With the current situation going on in the manga, the title should be changed into: "Why Yama ordered Unohana to stay"

  14. Like 1 Member(s) likes this post
  15. #101
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member darkprince0521's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Country
    Bangladesh
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    715
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Unohana is being REALLY useless right now

    Quote Originally Posted by River_Capulet View Post
    With the current situation going on in the manga, the title should be changed into: "Why Yama ordered Unohana to stay"
    that is true. but the thread was made before the revelation.

    anyway, as for the order; there must be a reason other than her healing ability. i am not sure what it is, but there just might be another reason for this.
    Naruto Forever


  16. #102
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Country
    Turkmenistan
    Age
    23
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    273
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Unohana is being REALLY useless right now

    I believe he told her and her squad to stay put because everybody from the 4th Squad beside's Unohana and Isane, are actually USELESS battle wise. They would have been slaughtered and Unohana and her VC wouldn't be able to save everybody in SS. Unohana would have also been at risk of being killed or badly injured and then SS would be at too great a risk.

  17. #103
    The Original 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member thornofcarrion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    ʕ •ᴥ•ʔ
    Country
    Pakistan
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    11,647
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Unohana's role in current arc

    I have changed the thread title to accommodate more discussion regarding Unohana in this arc.

  18. Thanks 1 Member(s) thanked this post
  19. #104
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Country
    United States
    Age
    26
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    127
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Unohana is being REALLY useless right now

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Well, yamamoto's order seems to be actually ancient. Back when the vizards were made yamamoto was also reluctant to send a medic to the scene and would rather send the kido guys (hachi). During the FKT war unohana did not partake in the battle, she was not even considered an offensive asset by aizen and once she got there she simply healed people. Basically yamamoto was of the idea that healing should be done after fighting which is not in itself altogether stupid.

    In this particular case the issue is whether yamamoto was right or not about telling the 4th division to not move. I would argue he was indeed right to make them stay behind. For one thing unohana is at large irreplaceable. What does healing people entail? It means the 4th division was to carry people from the middle of a war zone back to the 4th squad barracks or they would have to perform emergency procedures in the actual middle of a war zone. At large there is another thing which is objectively true for every single squad out there. Only the captain is actually worth a damn in a fight. The VC are only worth something against people of VC caliber however against captain level people the lot of them are basically worthless and utterly incapable of even somewhat tilting the balance of a battle. The most a VC level shinigami could do against a stern rittern is maybe dodge once or twice basically. And even then a VC holds more power than the rest of the entire division. So what would have been the result of the 4th squad shinigami mobilizing? They would have been annihilated. They wouldn't even have to be targeted, they could as easily have died from being close to the raging captain level reiatsus or the huge scale of their attacks. So in the middle of a war zone the only ones that could have possibly actually made a difference are unohana and her VC and perhaps a few seated officers would have been able to not pass out from the reiatsus involved. That said, to what extent did the stern rittern outnumber the shinigami? Against aizen there were in fact more shinigami than arrancar so unohana could take her time healing people but against the stern rittern they were not quite in that position. At the moment there were at best 13 captains and VCs and so far it does not seem like the VCs are in a position to help anyways (maybe renji with his bankai can make a difference but only if volstandig is not a generic trait accross stern ritern). In turn there were at least 27 stern rittern so far (26 letters plus the extra Y) and buckbeard. Unohana and her squad would have placed themselves in danger had they moved.

    Even if they had moved and technically saved lives that could easily get offset if a bunch of 4th squad members get killed. What benefit is in there for the gotei 13 if the 4th squad members save a few dozen lives if a dozen 4th squad members get killed? Not a single one unless of course the shinigami in question has some strategic value to the gotei 13 in which case this applies solely to byakuya and kenpachi however here we have to take in consideration we just don't know to what extent actually going there and bach safely was possible. Could unohana and kotetsu have gone all the way there and back without getting into fights? Would she have had the time to actually do anything there? Kenpachi was very close to where yamamoto and bach were fighting, he was in a specially bad position and halswash was close to them.
    1. The order Yama gave to Unohana 100 years ago was under the circumstances when they did not have any understanding of what was going on. Souls were disappearing indiscriminately with no apparent reason. It is not a typical battlefield situation. Without knowing what was causing the disappearances, it is unwise to send the captain of the medic squad into the open. However, this was an invasion with an enemy they were familiar with

    2. Unohana did not partake in the battle because she was cautious about Aizen's complete hypnosis ability. See what happened to the other captains when they tried to fight Aizen? She realized that Ichigo had twice the reiatsu of a typical captain and was not under Aizen's shikai ability and primarily relied on him to finish the battle. Moreover, we see Unohana beginning to heal the injured while Aizen is occupied with Ichigo and the others. Why would this not be possible when the Sternritters attacked? There was a limited number of soldiers that were all occupied with other captains while there were injured people not caught up in the battle.

    3. There are 26 letters of the alphabet, but the manga states that there were may be ~16 individuals. The letters the Sternritters were given simply referred to the special powers they exhibited. On a side note, I am pretty sure they'd have problems finding those with powers that could be appropriately named with letters like "x." What would his/her power be? Xenophobia?

    4. Captains are the only ones capable of saving Soul Society against enemies such as the Quincy. It is reasonable to reallocate resources and efforts to support the captains, so that they could stop the Quincy from murdering the lower-class soldiers. Moreover, there were only a limited number of Sternritters present in the battlefield (as I asserted in my past posts with supporting evidence), and Yama and Kenpachi took out almost half of them. Others were preoccupied with captains. There should have been little to no danger if the 4th squad attempted to retrieve the bodies during the battle.

    5. When the 1st squad VC got murdered, Yama ordered all the captains to prepare for battle. Although the Sternritters invading sooner than they had previously declared, a leader that remained in charge for 1000 years should have been prepared for that, ESPECIALLY after Soul Society already got invaded by a group of Quincy (the time when that VC got attacked). And there is no strategic advantage in the battlefield when the medics are not allowed to save lives, especially those belonging to soldiers with enough strength to defend SS: the captains.

    So Yama is all Brawns and no Brains.
    Last edited by SuperSaiyan4; November 10, 2012 at 05:15 PM.

  20. #105
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Firebird0ne's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Country
    United States
    Posts
    448
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Unohana's role in current arc

    I'm getting the feeling that the CC planned for Unohana to replace him if he died, and passed on through the aforementioned 'oral tradition' the location of the king's key. And perhaps his telling her to remain in the headquarters was to keep her power from being shown. Remember, she hasn't shown her bankai, so we don't know what it is exactly. We do know that she has some kind of creepy power that convinces people to do what she says. It might not be related to her zanpakutou, but it's a sign of power we don't know much about and could be used effectively in a fight. I can't wait to see her do battle. I think she'll shock the socks off of quincy and shinigamis alike.

New Reply
Page 7 of 8 FirstFirst ... 5 6 7 8 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts