The Origin of Rinnegan, Rikudou Sennin and the Ten Tails

[Uchiha_Blood]

The sage was never a ninja, nor did he ever create ninjutsu. It were his teachings that were labelled as such. He only created one single creation Jutsu, called Izanagi. So assuming that the sage was the most powerful ninja is merely a far-fetched idea as he was not a warrior at all, but a monk who understood the workings of Chakra.

He actually had a power ( or a jutsu ) that let him create anything he wanted, so if he wanted a giant Susano'o with cat ears riding a Kyuubi shooting Rainbow Bijuudamas he could've do it.
He also had all affinities, Ying/Yang release and all the Path's powers.
The only limit was his imagination ( and the jutsu he had wasn't Izanagi, but Banbutsu Sozo ).

There is a reason if Edo Madara was called by Kabuto a fraction of Rikudou Sennin's power

EDIT: oh and he had/created the 5 sacred weapons as well, so yeah

[number12michael]

He actually had a power ( or a jutsu ) that let him create anything he wanted, so if he wanted a giant Susano'o with cat ears riding a Kyuubi shooting Rainbow Bijuudamas he could've do it.
He also had all affinities, Ying/Yang release and all the Path's powers.
The only limit was his imagination ( and the jutsu he had wasn't Izanagi, but Banbutsu Sozo ).

There is a reason if Edo Madara was called by Kabuto a fraction of Rikudou Sennin's power

EDIT: oh and he had/created the 5 sacred weapons as well, so yeah

did he make the weapons?

And yeah i just checked it said that Izinagi is based on the same principle as Banbutsu Sozo(which is what allowed the SOSP create the tailed beasts form)

I am a tad confused....Kabuto said "i am closer then anyone to the sage of six paths now" what did he mean? and are the Sage modes related to the six paths?.....i have a feeling that we will find out the great sage frog(one who has prophecy's) and the white snake sage, and whatever the last sage is, where in fact the sage of six paths first "summons" but its only a guess

[shahdan]

He actually had a power ( or a jutsu ) that let him create anything he wanted, so if he wanted a giant Susano'o with cat ears riding a Kyuubi shooting Rainbow Bijuudamas he could've do it.
He also had all affinities, Ying/Yang release and all the Path's powers.
The only limit was his imagination ( and the jutsu he had wasn't Izanagi, but Banbutsu Sozo ).

There is a reason if Edo Madara was called by Kabuto a fraction of Rikudou Sennin's power

EDIT: oh and he had/created the 5 sacred weapons as well, so yeah

Which is izanagi; the only jutsu he ever created. This jutsu requires both yin and yang release: http://www.mangareader.net/93-57473-...apter-510.html

Those are Rinnegan based techniques, not independent Jutsus. You can in a way imply that all the 7 paths were the Sage's KG as he was born with those eyes and the ensuing abilities. The man was not a ninja in any manner. He was a monk who propagated his teachings which he termed ninjustu. It was never alluded or implied that he ever created any ninjutsu aside of that one creation technique.

[GyoMasta]

Which is izanagi; the only jutsu he ever created. This jutsu requires both yin and yang release: http://www.mangareader.net/93-57473-...apter-510.html

Those are Rinnegan based techniques, not independent Jutsus. You can in a way imply that all the 7 paths were the Sage's KG as he was born with those eyes and the ensuing abilities. The man was not a ninja in any manner. He was a monk who propagated his teachings which he termed ninjustu. It was never alluded or implied that he ever created any ninjutsu aside of that one creation technique.

You're wrong dude and contradict yourself. If the monk's teachings (knowledge, abilities and skills) were called ninjutsu, and if his the 1st to kow them and who taught it the others, then it, by definition, means he was the very 1st ninja, the first ninjutsu user. His Ninshuu is Ninjutsu+nindou. You don't make sense.

And Rikudou Sennin only knowing/doing one jutsu... come one that one came out of *censured*. He invented Fuuin-Jutsu, even bijuu-sealing , which highly advanced ninjutsu with all the things. He could use all the elements and stuff:

http://www.mangareader.net/93-380-11...apter-375.html

http://www.mangareader.net/93-378-3/...apter-373.html

http://www.mangareader.net/93-378-4/...apter-373.html

http://www.mangareader.net/93-380-12...apter-375.html

http://www.mangareader.net/93-50180-...apter-490.html scroll leading to RS Fuuin-Jutsu...

http://www.mangareader.net/93-53820-...apter-499.html ( Naruto using Rikudou Sennin's Fuuin-Jutsu OH WAIT' that must be Izanagi or Banbutsu Souzou he's using, according to what you're saying, right?)


Kyuubi clearly recognizing the Rikudou Sennin's Izana- erh, I mean Fuuin-JUTSU:
http://www.mangareader.net/93-53820-...apter-499.html


http://www.mangareader.net/93-31099-...apter-462.html
(Re-quote: "He ENTRUSTED his two boys with the power and the will of THE WAY OF THE NINJA." ... But of course, as you say, RS was not a ninja, right?)

http://www.mangareader.net/93-35269-...apter-467.html
(he passed ninjutsu to next generations... but couldn't use that ninjutsu...? must have something else that folks were using, maybe Izanagi... without having the genetic requirements, who knows)

From Databook (that you can read on this forum):

Page 3

[Rinnegan]
Rinnegan, the doujutsu purported to be the source of ninjutsu's creation. The powers revealed by that supreme doujutsu Pain carries may be but a mere portion, but that is not definite. But there is no doubt that Rinnegan is an important clue to find Pain's true identity. As a young boy, Nagato was once raised by Jiraiya as his disciple. Because he, too possessed Rinnegan. Today, one can't decide for sure whether he is Pain. But once can affirm from Konan's presence and his conversation with Jiraiya that there is a connection between Pain and Nagato

Rikudou Sennin**

Main text

Rikudou Sennin: the shinobi forefather who gave birth to all ninjutsu. He was said to carry Rinnegan, and to have been sent by Heaven during times of turmoil. Who he really was: a god of creation or destruction... or whether he even existed at all is uncertain, and his name remains in folklore tales only.

Caption

-The shinobi founder who uncovered the principles of chakra and hand seals.

Picture comment

-Rinnegan towers supreme among doujutsu. Those very same pupils dwell in Nagato's eyes...

http://www.mangareader.net/93-430-9/...apter-425.html (ANBU Scareface says it too)

Black on pale brown (black on white), clear, net, simple, plain... there, written, "masterficious", Kishimoto-certified.


Everything Jiraiya and Tobi said and what Nagato could do absolutly contradict what you're saying. Have you ever noticed Pain could use KUCHIYOSE NO JUTSU? Who do you think must have been the 1st to use the 12 zodiac signs for ninjutsu if not the Rikudou himself? The 12 signs and spell scrolls aren't necessary to perform Kekkei Genkai abilities such as Banbutsu, Shinra Tensei ou Chibaku Tensei. The Sennin's powers, knowledge and skill created ninjutsu/nindou itself but he was no ninja and couldn't/didn't use ninjutsu or had only 1?! Please.

It's like saying: Bruce invented Jeet Kun Do can couldn't employ it; Einstein came up with the Relativity Theory and explained it but could understand it or demonstate its validity; those who invented the different writing systems were illiterate; Michael Jackson's original dance move is called "the Moonwalk" but MJ wasn't "moonwalking" -_-...

Rikudou Sennin was the first shinobi, the most skilled, the most powerful, he invented and mastered Ninshuu/Ninjutsu/Nindou, the art, the way, the philosophy and taught to numerous people including his sons.

________________________________________________________________

of ugur_tatli

I would like to talk and discuss about the Rikudou Sennin.

As you know, he is the strongest ninja, the first rin'negan user, the one who finded out the ninjutsu and Jubi's jinchuriki.

I personally don't believe that he was born with the rin'negan. I'll explain what I mean.

All we know about the Rikudou Sennin's body is limited by his sons. He had two sons, the older one was born with Sennin's eyes, his powerful chakas and spiritual energy. And the younger one was born with Sennin's body, his life force and physical energy.
http://www.mangareader.net/93-31099-...apter-462.html



There are the pictures. The older one doesn't have the rin'negan. He has got an other doujutsu.



I believe that the Sennin was born with those eyes but I will explain it after.

And the younger one had the Sennin's body. (I don't mean the bodies were the same but they had the same power.) As we know Hashirama, the descendant of younger boy, had the power to tame the tailed beasts. That can explain how the Sennin could suppress the Jubi's chakra and seal it in himself.
So we can say that the Rikudou wasn't the first rin'negan user. It was the ten tails. The Rikudou had these eyes after obtained the monster's powers.



Now. Let's remember the speech between Darui and Tobito.
http://www.mangareader.net/93-35269-...apter-467.html
Tobito says that the Rikudou have divided the chakra of ten tails and created with it 9 tailed beats, and become the Moon. So Darui asks if a human being can accomplish some thing like that. Tobito's answer was simple. "As the ten tails jinchuriki," the Rikudou was already beyond what we could call "human."

As you can see Tobito wasn't talking about the Sennin. He was talking about the Sennin as the ten tails jiunchuriki. His "true power" comes from the biju. The power that is able to create. You can see the Rikudou Sennin as Neo in Matrix. Neo had a body that was able to bend the universe. So the Rikudou had the same. The ten tails was the strongest but it wasn't able to fight with the special body and the doujutsu of the Sennin. The ten tails have changed the DNA of the Sennin and thanks to this the descendants of the older one had the power to use izanagi. The techique that is able to create.

http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/594/14
The ten tails was the god but if you have studied Aristotle's unmoved mover you will understand what it really is.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unmoved_mover
It's the begining of all, the strongest, the most beautiful, the most intelligent.

So how come a human being sealed it in himself? I don't know if you ever heard this concept. "Can God create a rock so heavy that even he cannot lift it?"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omnipotence_paradox

I think the ten tails wanted to prove his powers, so he gave a doujutsu and a special body to Rikudou which are surpassing his powers. After the fight the ten tails was defeated.

As the jinchuriki of ten tails, the Rikudou had the power of a god. He was able to create things as the ten tails could. But I don't understand how the hell someone like him was aging??? Even the mestizo Zetsu's are immortals that aren't aging. Why the Rikudou wasn't an immortal?

All this (what you said and the 1st part of my post) makes me think that Rikudou Sennin doujutsu indeed originally the Rinnegan, but since it a manifestation of a complete genetic set up, the Elder Son, only having half of the requirement fulfilled, only manifested the spiral-looking doujtsu while still having his father's gigantic special chakras and spiritual energy.

But then again, if we're to say that the elder Son's eyes were actually what RS hade prior to becoming a jinchuuriki, then combining Senju and Uchiha DNA like Madara did should have perfected his biology and awaken the Rinnegan. Since if, as you say, RS at the beggining had the super spiral eyes and super body manifest in the Ancestral Sons, then Madara, by recombining what was once 1 should have led to Madara not acquiring Rinnegan but the spiral eyes that the RS, as you're posing, had when he wasn't affected by the Juubi yet had the physical energy with life force and spiritual energy with awesome chakra. He should have become like the Elder Son but with fantastic life force like the Younger Son/with Hashirama's mokuton body, shouldn't he?

And wasn't it said that Rs invented and mastered the whole spectrum of chakra and jutsu possibility thanks his Rinngan (natural genius aside)? And that thanks to his skill he beat and sealed(with Fuuin-Jutsu) the Juubi into himself? Therefore he should have had the special abilities granted by the Rinnegan... before having the Rinnegan? The spiral-patterned doujutsu would actually be nearly the same in abilities with the looks and Banbutsu Souzou being the main difference?

I was actually something thinking, and others have said it, that a Juubi's mutating effect in RS Sennin was the source or part of the reason why the Spiral-Rinnegan mutated into the Sharingan, which looks like the Juubi's eye, a risidual side effect showing more effect after s certain number of generations.

But considering those pictures:

http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/594/14
http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/594/15
http://www.mangareader.net/93-57473-...apter-510.html
http://www.mangareader.net/93-378-4/...apter-373.html
http://www.mangareader.net/93-380-11...apter-375.html

I'm kind wondering between your theory and Banbutsu Souzou being a combination of the Juubi's powers and Rikudou's natural Rinnegan ninjutsu power, as if it were but 2 forms of the same or a similar power hosted into 2 different being: the beast (chaos-raw) and a superhuman/thinker (order-ninjutsu) that combined into one, with order being the prevailer. But would reason be to lose, order would be overwhelmed by the chaos, the beast, the Juubi.



Good theory you have. Very good. I'm starting to feel as what I end up saying was the same or similar of what you said, ugur_tatli, but the paragraph by which I started makes me think that something is missing in what you said. That either RS was born with his Rinnegan and that the shape of the Elder Son's eyes are a result of the splitting and of mutation by Juubi or that, as you said, RS was born with the spiral, but that the said spiral doujutsu had abilities quite similar to the concentric Rinnegan, to say the least. For he naturally seemed to be able to realize nearly anything through his ninjutsu, even having a chakra and jutsu strong enough withstand and repress Juubi. Rikudou and Juubi are like the sides of a coin, the raw and the refine.

It would also imply that RS messed up, partially, in his spliting of powers/genes as Juubi's essence, in both cases (Rinnegan being innate to RS or not), slipped into the Elder Son. Were your theory to be exact would, imo, imply that not only mean that the Izanagi in Uchiha is a residue of Juubi's power, but the reason why combining Uchiha+Senju leads to having concentric Rinnegan instead of spiral Rinnegan because Uchiha naturally "juubified", and comibation with Senju leads to a Madara or a Nagato, that is, a "bijuuless juubi mutant-jinchuuriki" (i.e. the altered physiological state RS would be as Juubi perfect jinchuuriki but without a bijuu and still having the Rinnegan's whole abilities).

Or Banbutsu Souzou is natural to the Rinnegan, itself natural to RS and that's why Uchiha can use Izanagi and why Senju+Uchiha leads to Rinnegan with circles and not with spiral (but I still tink there's Juubi essence in them >>the Sharingan ressembles way too much Juubi's eye).

Again very good post.

[Suzaku]

did he make the weapons?

And yeah i just checked it said that Izinagi is based on the same principle as Banbutsu Sozo(which is what allowed the SOSP create the tailed beasts form)

I am a tad confused....Kabuto said "i am closer then anyone to the sage of six paths now" what did he mean? and are the Sage modes related to the six paths?.....i have a feeling that we will find out the great sage frog(one who has prophecy's) and the white snake sage, and whatever the last sage is, where in fact the sage of six paths first "summons" but its only a guess

Kabuto seems to have inherited Orochimaru's goal of obtaining a complete and perfect knowledge of all ninjutsu. When Kabuto first approached Madara to offer an alliance, he states that his only interest was to learn the "pure truth behind ninjutsu." Obviously, the Sage of Six Paths was the founder of ninjutsu and had the deepest and most profound knowledge of its secrets.

I believe that when Kabuto said he was closer than anyone to the Sage of Six Paths, he was speaking moreso in terms of knowledge than power. That is to say, he's closer to understanding the "pure truth behind ninjutsu" than anyone, a culmination of his and Orochimaru's research and experimentation, as well as his own mastery of Sage Mode, which probably does have some sort of relation to the Sage of Six Paths.


Also, I'd like to clear something up. The Sage of Six Paths did not create Izanagi or Izanami, those are creations of the Uchiha Clan.

The Sage of Six Paths created Banbutsu Sozo and Chibaku Tensei at the very least, and probably Shinra Tensei, Bansho Ten'nin, and Gedo: Rinne Tensei.

It should probably be noted that all of the Sharingan dojutsu are named after Shinto deities, while all of the Rinnegan dojutsu that were probably created by the Sage of Six Paths are named in the style of yojijukugo (four-character idioms) and/or inspired by Buddhist concepts.

[number12michael]

Kabuto seems to have inherited Orochimaru's goal of obtaining a complete and perfect knowledge of all ninjutsu. When Kabuto first approached Madara to offer an alliance, he states that his only interest was to learn the "pure truth behind ninjutsu." Obviously, the Sage of Six Paths was the founder of ninjutsu and had the deepest and most profound knowledge of its secrets.

I believe that when Kabuto said he was closer than anyone to the Sage of Six Paths, he was speaking moreso in terms of knowledge than power. That is to say, he's closer to understanding the "pure truth behind ninjutsu" than anyone, a culmination of his and Orochimaru's research and experimentation, as well as his own mastery of Sage Mode, which probably does have some sort of relation to the Sage of Six Paths.


Also, I'd like to clear something up. The Sage of Six Paths did not create Izanagi or Izanami, those are creations of the Uchiha Clan.

The Sage of Six Paths created Banbutsu Sozo and Chibaku Tensei at the very least, and probably Shinra Tensei, Bansho Ten'nin, and Gedo: Rinne Tensei.

It should probably be noted that all of the Sharingan dojutsu are named after Shinto deities, while all of the Rinnegan dojutsu that were probably created by the Sage of Six Paths are named in the style of yojijukugo (four-character idioms) and/or inspired by Buddhist concepts.

they are the "pains" are named after places you can be reincarnated

due to the recent chapter i think sage art is connected to the 10 tails.....it seems it uses natural energy not chakra? atlest that how i read it


what u think about the sage masters being the RS summons?

and did it ever explane why nagato could summon a bunch of summons and were he get them from? were thye dead aswell and just being controlled

and did kabuto say that nagato can see through the summons eyes aswell?

[shahdan]

@GyoMasta I have no idea why you launched into such a lengthy post, when that one link I posted clearly elaborates on that Jutsu being Izanagi, or 'the creation of all things' Jutsu. That is all I need to know as it goes into the detail and intricately describes how it works on that single page.

[GyoMasta]

@GyoMasta I have no idea why you launched into such a lengthy post, when that one link I posted clearly elaborates on that Jutsu being Izanagi, or 'the creation of all things' Jutsu. That is all I need to know as it goes into the detail and intricately describes how it works on that single page.

You didn't what was written, did you? Why would the Rikudou Sennin develop the 12 signs used for Shinobi arts in the known ways if all he always did was wish things to be for them to be? ANd the Fuuin-Jutsu currently used on Kyuubi is the a Fuuin-Jutsu invented by the RS, Kyuubi recognized it. How could people use that Fuuin-Jutsu, which is on Gerotora and finalized itself the way Naruto did on the bijuu if Rikudou Sennin used Banbutsu Souzou to seal Juubi into him? Naruto doesn't have Banbutsu Souzou, he couldn't use that sealing technique if it was actually a Kekkei Genkai Sealing simply BS sealing the Juubi into RS. And if Banbutsu Souzou is a super ability that enables one to warpp reality and do what ever one wants, how couldn't the Rikudou Sennin use the very Ninjutsu he was teaching people, amongst which were his very own sons? Rs was the first to dvelop the use of chakra and the 12 signs in such a way aswell as the rest of the arts and way of the ninja that makes one a shinobi. So what exactly was Rikudou was teaching his 2 sons who were supposed to replace him after he would pass away? How to use Banbutsu Sozo/Izanagi that they didn't have?

So RS mastered all types of chakra, the way to be a ninja, the 12 signs, the whole ascetic way/martial art/philosophy and taught them to others, including his very sons, who acquired part of his genetic abilities, everyone in the manga talking about him and the databook says his the 1st and father of ShinobiJutsu/Ninshuu but HE wasn't a ninja and/or couldn't/didn't us any other ability/skills than Banbutsu Souzou/The Creation of all things?

That's worse than a bad joke, dude. Why would you teach to others a think you really don't know crack about? Or that they couldn't use even if they tried because of lacking genetic predisposition. The worm teaching and showing the baby eagle how to fly? Re-read your link and those I provided. Look at Madara and Nagato and the rest, enough said.

"Rikudou Sennin could walk nor breath, he was only using Banbutsu Souzou..."

[shahdan]

The man understood the intricate make up of Chakra to form a set of teachings called the Ninjustu. Now, ninjutsu in reality - yes, I mean the real world - only refers to the right hand black magic techniques used by the original ninjas, nothing more nothing less. If we are to apply this logic to RS myth in Naruto-verse, one can say for sure that this man's knowledge did not extend beyond the usage of Chakra to create certain aspects of ninjutsu in form of yin/yang release, as in form of Izanagi.

Secondly, a philosophy alone doesn't make anyone a ninja. You can say that he taught the meaning and understanding of Chakra as it was an unknown concept before him. To venture that he knew all jutsus or some form of powerful ninja arts that extend his limited use of Ninjutsu to Genjutsu and Taijutsu etc is a far-fetched statement, as so many techniques were created after his death, and he was believed to be a fairytale to begin with. No one even believed in his existence, let alone supposedly follow a set of teachings and intricate set up of ninja ways of his unknown man.

I have read the manga like you, and I don't see this matter the way you do.