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Translations: Bleach 595 (2)
Am more satisfied by his reveal as the villian.
Feel about the same as I did before about the reveal.
Am less satisfied by his reveal as the villain.
Yahiko and Nagato hadn't adopted the nuclear deterrence plan yet, since they didn't have the Gedo to create a hypothetical nuke jutsu. Nagato basically combined Madara's plan to use the Gedo and bijuu, but instead basically painted it the color of Yahiko's eye-for-an-eye-until-we're-all-blind-and-happy-and-equal philosophy.
Basically going underneath the fence, as opposed to Madara/Tobito going over the the fence. And I guess Naruto's philosophy in this analogy would be to outsmart the fence with KBs before brilliantly landing a hit with rasengan. Then I guess hugging the mangled corpse of the fence.
---------- Post added at 03:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:10 PM ----------
To me, the whole page wasted with "I don't care" seemed more like Kishi's thoughts on writing this flashback. It reeked of something Kubo's done in Bleach lol
Looking back, I'm even more disappointed with Tobi copypasta'ing Madara's speech. He didn't add any of Obito's character to the plan, like Nagato did to Madara's plan. If anyone has ever successfully used himself like a tool with no character of his own, it's Tobi, Ruiner of All Things Obito.
Last edited by badluckartist; October 29, 2012 at 02:39 PM.
@badluckartist the point you raised about obito becoming 'selfish' is totall a misjudgement of character on the part of the reader. Obito, even after turning tobi is not a selfish or cruel person. He is killing people without mercy because their life or death in this world means nothing if his plan is to be executed. In the world of tsukiyami, they are all gonna live. So its not that obito has turned spiteful or hateful, rather he is acting based on cold logic. As it's been clearly shown by the instance when he spared kakashi's life, cause it neither helps nor deters the moon eye plan.
---------- Post added at 06:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:32 PM ----------
About yahiko being the only one to call bluff, you've to notice that it was the first time he tried to pose as madara. And the lesson he learned from there was a lesson well learned. After that he never put out that claim without some madara-esque feat before. That's why no one but yahiko doubted him.
"I don't care about anything as long as I can create my dream world."
That's arrogant and selfish. I mean, think about why he is creating this illusionary world in the first place? Because the girl he loved got killed, which sucks, but being willing to risk the lives of everybody Rin herself loved to do it shows who all this is really about. Himself.
His whole motivation is just "me, me, me.". It didn't come across as grand or impressive it's just a little kid throwing a tantrum because things didn't go his way. At least that's how it came across to me.
Obito used nagato without knowing their true plan.
But maybe obito didn't know that madara is also usng him without knowing the true plan of madara.
Even Madara's motivations boil down pretty quickly to "me me me why isn't this whole world all about me". The Sage had some awfully lopsided genes.
@ jammin you don't get my point. The moment moon's eye plan gets implemented, this world just stops existing. Everyone who lost anything in the process will gain them back in the tsukiyami world. So tobi's is not taking away anybody's happiness, nor killing anyone ultimately. Cause they all are gonna be there in tsukiyami world, and this real world will simply become invalid. That's why he is neither cruel nor selfish. He's creating a biblical heaven for everyone, where whatever you want is real. So if someone wants one person whom tobi has killed to live, he'll live.
But that whole absurdly delusional mindset is dependent on two preconditions
1) That the world he would create actually is "better".
Meaning that he is certain things will turn out the way he believes they will. (arrogance)
2) That he has the right to decide what the world should be.
Meaning that what's best for him personally, is best for everybody. (selfishness)
All of the lives he has taken and all the harm he has done is nothing more than a wager on these two things. It's like trying force everybody into a "matrix-like" existence because he himself can't face the real world.
Last edited by Jammin; October 30, 2012 at 04:26 PM.
@ jammin come on, why do you keep emphasizin on "tobi'' will create? Tobi'll create the tsukiyami world only in the sense that he'll be the one to do the actual initial jutsu. But 'creating' as in the sense that 'deciding what is gonna be/happen there in the tsukiyami world' that will be determined by each individual's will. Tobi will not, CANNOT, impose his will on anybody else's world. For example, lets say someone, say kakashi, does not wish for rin to live, but obito does. In the real world, only one of kakashi or obito can be happy, can get what they want. But in tsukiyami world, both can be happy and winner, cause in obito's illusion he'll see rin alive, in kakashi's she'll be dead. If it were the case of obito's will imposed on others, as you were saying, then in kakashi's world rin would've been alive, going against kakashi's wish/happiness. Then i'd have said obito is selfish. But this is against the very idea of moon's eye plan..." Everyone get to have their wish". Meaning that obito can't impose his will on others, anymore than they can do to obito. So it is out of question that obito can impose his will on others in tsukiyami world, or that he'll decide what will happen in tsukiyami world FOR OTHERS, or that he's selfish.
---------- Post added at 06:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:59 PM ----------
Now that should refute your first point on 'tobi's arrogance to think that his version would be better'. Cause there ain't gonna be any 'his version' imposed on others, all will have their 'own versions' according to their own wishes SOLELY, not by tobi's wishes. The second point about people not wanting to live in that 'matrix-like-world' in the first place. I don't think that to be anything much different from different characters trying to establishing what they thought to be best. Naruto can't leave sasuke alone, or stop fighting him, cause sasuke has a freedom of will. Danzo's will and third's/tsunade's will were conflicting, and freedom of will did not mean that they did not try to implement their own wills. This is the problem of the real world. Everyone has conflicting wills and everyone tries to follow and implement his own at the cost of others. Obito in his attempt to realize moon's eye play, is not doing anything more or less than that and if that makes him selfish, it makes everyone in the living world as selfish as he is(eg: naruto and jiraya in their attempts to establish peace, while ppl like yahiko,sasuke desires retribution).
I'm not talking about his "personal illusion" I'm talking about the concept of forcing everybody into an illusionary world in the first place.
Remember that bad guy in the first matrix movie? That's who Obito is. And EXACTLY what he's trying to do.
Last edited by Jammin; October 31, 2012 at 10:11 AM.
Instead, I don't get how obito's plan cannot be selfish : he wants a world perfect for him,but if kakashi had died (and he didn't care because kakashi would have been in the dreamworld) he wouldn't have been neither a winner nor into peace. I hope you get my point: obito wants a dream,but the characters who are in the dream can die in the real world without he cares.
@ jammin that, i think was the second point that you made in your previous post, and i addressed to thatin the second part of mine.
---------- Post added at 01:49 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:37 AM ----------
@ mattialidivino the ones who are dying in real world, they themselves can't be there in the dreamworld, so yes they can't be 'winner' or beneficiary of the moon's eye plan. But everyone who will live, even if they were against moon's eye plan, will get to live a life anyway they want. So they will all be winners, all the living humans will be at peace. For example, lets say kakashi died. But naruto wants him to live. In moon's eye world, naruto will get his wish and he'll be winner. So yes, moon's eye plan can't help the dead, just like the real world. But the difference is, moon's eye plan can help the living to get whatever they want, which the real world can't. That's why in real world kakashi's death would start the much talked about 'cycle of hatred', and it'll keep on affecting the living, to make more and more 'losers'. So the real world requires as many a sacrifice as the moon's eye plan, and the sacrifices for real world keeps on going forever without ever letting the living live in peace, but in moon's eye plan, once its done the sacrifices will stop right there and the living will have peace. That is the difference.
---------- Post added at 02:10 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:49 AM ----------
Before we continue this discussion any further, i believe its essential to make this point clear that it does not matter whether the 'perspective' i'm suggesting is right/sounding logical to you. What was the matter of discussion was that whether obito had turned cruel and selfish all on a sudden. Generally people here were suggesting that indeed he HAD to had become such a thing to commit the crimes that he did, which would've been an inconsistancy. I am only trying to show that there can be such a 'perspective' found which does not require us to assume that obito has turned cruel to do these things. And i believe i've presented with such a one. Whether that perspective is flawed or not is an entirely different discussion and not relevant here, because we are not discussing if obito's way is right or not, we're discussing whether obito's characterization is continuous or not. Since i've shown a possible perspective, a possible motive, which can drive a man like obito (good at heart but very very naive) to do what he's doing without requiring him to become cruel suddenly, it refutes that there's has been any inconsistancy in writing (rather there have been misinterpretation on readers' part as i mentioned before). In fact, the fact that obito left kakashi alive is a clear proof that he's not vengeful and cruel, and my interpretation of his motive is closer to canon than the popular one.
---------- Post added at 02:15 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:10 AM ----------
And don't forget that obito had two death-reviving jutsus in his access, yet he did not revive rin and be content. That'd have been selfish, using those jutsus for his own personal wish. Instead he tried to use them for moon's eye plan, meaning that he honestly believes it to be the only way to save mankind...that's everyone, not just himself.
Kind of funny, but the name of this chapter and Obito's whole 'i give up on life' mantra reminded me of a Family Guy scene... in fact, here it is...
Last edited by jalix; October 31, 2012 at 03:51 PM.
And even if everyone is just 'mind-controlled' away from 'badness', how will that work? And what the hell does it have to do with Tsukuyomi if its effect on the desired targets is more like Kotoamatsukami? GRARGHHH I NEED COFFEE
I guess it would make wishes come true. Anything a person wants would become reality. Or at least is the only way it could work.