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Translations: Bleach 600 (2)
Am more satisfied by his reveal as the villian.
Feel about the same as I did before about the reveal.
Am less satisfied by his reveal as the villain.
@ badluckartist everyone will live in their seperate genjutsu worlds. Though its not been mentioned anywhere directly, but it was said everyone will be winner, everyone will get there wishes. That obviously means they'll have their own seperate genjutsu world(so different ppl can have their conflicting wishes fulfilled without hampering anyone else's...,winners without loosers) rather than the 'shared' matrix like world. In outside world, yes obviously they will die. Its not that the 'badness' of ppl will go away, it simply won't affect others. In orochimaru's world he can kill and experiment as much as he wants without actually anybody dying. So its not the job of koto amatsukami rather the job of tsukiyami, cause before dying in the outside world, ppl can live in genjutsu world for eternity due tsukiyami's time bending property. Also the reason they can't use koto amatsukami is simple, its a jutsu which depends on 'interpretation' of the command. Lets say you give the command to 'live peacefully'. Problem will arise when different ppl will think different ways to be 'more peaceful'. And there is this simple fact that we don't even know if its possible to cast a mass koto amatsukami or not.
It's still definitely more likely that it's just going to be a mass genjutsu genocide in the real world that abuses Tsukuyomi's time perception ability to the fullest. I don't like either plan because they're both dead ends to humanity either way... Madara is just politely killing everyone, but not saying it. Which is strange- you think he would be bragging all the time about how he's going to "reincarnate" humanity after killing off the current population.
I hope we don't have the whole story to the plan yet (Obito or Madara's), because the current Moon's Eye is not only inconsistent but boring.
... ... ...
AND if all the genjutsu are self-imposed perceptions of what reality should be, wouldn't they just be stuck in the same stage of life forever? Never being able to learn or acquire new information from outside sources, they would suffer symptoms of solitary confinement. Oro is a good example of how this won't work, even from the inside of the genjutsu- just what exactly will Oro "discover" for the rest of eternity? Things he already knows? Things Madara knows? The true secrets of the Sage and all jutsu? Obviously not the latter two since he can't magic new information into his head.
ASDLK;FJASDLK;FJSAKL;FJD;FALKJFDKL So Moon's Eye is more like a Lotus Eater Machine variant of Izanami with no escape route that lasts until your body dies. Gotcha.
Last edited by badluckartist; November 01, 2012 at 10:15 AM.
@badluckartist that koto amatsukami depends on respective is logical conclusion. Lets say sasuke was under koto amatsukami with the command to 'protect konoha'. Then a civil war started in konoha between roots/danzo followers and third's followers, both claiming that they are the ones 'protecting konoha'. What does sasuke do then? It depends on his interpretation of the situation, which should be better bet to 'protect konoha'. Lets assume that naruto was also under the command 'protect konoha'. There is every chance that naruto's interpretation of the situation and the preferred way of protecting konoha would be very different, most likely opposite to sasuke's...and that will cause conflict again, on the point whose 'way' is correct. Using koto amatsukami on yahiko commanding 'live peacefully' wouldn't have changed a thing, he'd have still waged war on 5 nations cause he believed nuclear deterrent was the way to 'live peacefully'.
---------- Post added at 12:24 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:09 AM ----------
@mattialidivino i agree with you, when you say you don't agree with obito's way. I'm not supporting obito's method in any way, i'm only trying to show that he does not need to be, AND IS NOT, a cruel, selfish man even now. His plan has not originated from cruelty or selfishness, its come from terribly misguided naivity (Remember itachi comparing naruto with masked man). So there is no inconsistancy in his characterization, as alleged popularly.
I see what you're getting at, but Yahiko couldn't escape being Koto'd out of nuclear deterrence even if he believed that was peace. It would most likely be Shisui's definition of peace, and all the complications that come with that. Sasuke couldn't get out of something like Koto just by convincing himself that what he's doing is protecting Konoha, if it truly wasn't. Now that I think about it, actually, it seems as if... WAIT
This is totally offtopic, but I just realized that Shisui may have used Kotoamatsukami on Itachi, forcing a reluctant, peaceful Itachi to have the deadly resolve to kill his friend, family, lover, etc. all just to protect Konoha. It explains how he would even know how to do something like program a genjutsu into Shisui's eye- Shisui told him how. Been wondering for a while just who/when/how exactly Shisui used Koto (on) during his life.
Last edited by badluckartist; November 01, 2012 at 02:50 PM.
obito wants a world where rin can be alive but he also told madara that it didn't matter if he kill kakashi or not because he will also be in the world that they will created so it sound that obito wants everyone to have love/winner/peace..
i mean kakashi killed rin infront of his eye and obito still wans kakashi to be in the world that he will created and obito was someone else, he will said fu%^ that motherf%^&% traitor..
that doesn't mean that obito is right, he was a wonderful boy and madara fucked him up so bad just with one chick..
Hi all, there've been quite a few responses to this review, so I don't think I'm going to get to all of them and it sounds like there's a pretty big divide concerning this flashback and Obito in general. I did want to address one thing though.
From Obito's perspective, that new reality would supplant this one and has built in it a mechanism for creating the broadest base of happiness. No war. No loss. No failure. It'd be a world debatablely better than one that turns children into soldiers and where non-stop murder is not the norm.
The question is: does this make him selfish? I'd argue no, or at least not any more selfish than the myriad other characters who would put their own views and philosophies above other and force them on the war. Naruto definitely falls within this category and we only accept it as readers because we feel empathy towards him as a main character. But from the perspective of other characters, and as has been shown in the manga, Naruto's philosophies are half-baked and naive no matter how good his intentions.
Obito is delusional, without a doubt, but all leaders are generally delusional. That's what it takes to believes that you can decide the course of a peoples. To that end Naruto, the Raikage, Gaara, Hiruzen, Madara, Orochimaru, and the rest of the big power houses are delusional because they've at times stuck obstinately to their vision of what the world is or should be.
Yet Obito sincerely believes his course is one that helps the greater good. It's not just Rin that'd be revived from the dead. Everyone would have a shot at lasting peace, at living without the spectre of war or death chasing behind them. When you look at classic villains, the ones that last in literature are often the ones that think that they are the hero of the story.
Now of course, as with all art, your mileage may vary. It's easy to dismiss a character we feel above (especially because we're coming in with greater knowledge than the characters) or whom we don't understand because his motivations seem foreign to anything we've experienced ourselves. But I'd argue that while the execution has been sloppy, the underpinnings of Obito are very sound.
Obito believed in three things: Rin, his trust in Kakashi, and the village, in that order. One moment of terrible trauma took it away and he had a psychotic break. That's something I can actually buy into and so I recognize that he is as a character committing these terrible acts, not as a mentally healthy individual, but as someone dangerously detached from reality. He's so far gone down the rabbit hole that he doesn't realize how deep he's gone.
To what degree can you define evil. What backstory could possibly justify anything Orochimaru, Madara, Zabuza, Nagato, or Itachi did? None really. We shouldn't be looking for justification, but understanding, clarity.
Madara grew up in an era of war that was in danger of becoming obsolete. Paranoid, sociopathic, and arrogant, he set about rectifying a situation that never was only to end up responsible for the future he feared.
Orochimaru is just as sociopathic as the rest, but his detachment comes from years of growing up in war without any attachment. His parents gone, Hiruzen was the only one he really had, but any gains made there were undone with each atrocity he witnessed on the battlefield: unfair genetic advantages, war orphans, Tsunade's relations always inevitably leading to death and heartbreak.
Itachi grew up the same way but chose loyalty to the village and to the goal of preventing greater bloodshed and chaos no matter how great the cost.
Zabuza was used and as a bullied pawn became a bully that used others himself, a very real phenomenon.
Nagato was idealistic, lost, and confused and latched on to whatever answers he could find.
Each of these characters has a central relationship whose failures motivated them to some degree and I don't see how we as readers can dismiss them and yet look past the fact that the heroes of Naruto are motivated by relationships just as simple.
Naruto has a desire to prove himself but wouldn't be there without the validation of Iruka, Hiruzen, and Kakashi. Sakura has her teammates. Each of the rookie teams and senseis have their bonds with each other. The only difference between the heroes and villains is that the heroes were able to weather their traumas, and oft time through sheer timing and luck.
Just my two cents.
Oh, and one more last thing...
In the movies, Agent Smith is almost unquestionably evil, but the Architects and machines can't be so easily classified because the situation depends upon the perspective you see the machine/human war from. They do some bad things for the sake of what could be good.
Last edited by blackjack612; November 03, 2012 at 04:00 PM.
The big trick with characterizations is for a writer to keep the reader emotionally linked to the characters. Whether villains or heroes. This is why actions and emotions must be understandable and believable. This is where I think Obito differs greatly from the likes of Orochimaru, Danzou, Madara, or Zabuza. All of their actions were understandable and believable within the context of who they are and what their motivations were; and this is the problem I have with Obito.
Even supposing he has foolishly convinced himself that the dream world he's trying to create would be the true one, those he kills along the way would obviously not be a part of his moon eye plan; since they would not be alive to fall under it's spell. So in the end he's harmed and killed those people in every world but the one he intends to create within his own mind. And if the only world that "counts" to him is that world, how can I think of him as anything but selfish?
In other words, all those he has killed will stay dead except for the delusional shadows he intends to create inside of his own mind and the minds of others. So the dream world he is sacrificing them for does not benefit them in the least yet he sacrifices them with little or no remorse. And in the greater scheme of things, children would not truly be born and humanity would die; shouldn't that bother him more than he has shown as well?
His willingness to pay that price, and all that comes with it, so easily marks him as not just delusional but completely self-centered. Either that or so dumb he was unable to consider his own actions in even the smallest of ways. This is not, I think, how he was intended to come across and this is my great criticism of him and his characterization.
Just think about Rin for a moment.
Even if everything goes the way Obito wants all he will gain is his own idealized version of Rin, not the real thing. Just a one-sided lie that benefits only him. How am I to believe he ever truly loved her if this is something he's willing to accept?
Last edited by Jammin; November 03, 2012 at 06:24 PM.
The only real difference being that Cypher had no pretense of altruism.
Obito, LIKE MOST OF THE ANTAGONISTS , are moved by the death of someone close to them. It is an essential theme shown and proven to make people crazy, or give them enough stimulus to take that plunge into a dark path. The only thing that is different is that most of those Antagonist had their parents killed (some saw them killed before them as children), and then loss others or observed loss continually which drove them to go the other way. Obito merely observed Rin die. And people don't like that reason, it seems less justifiable, due to the quality of the relationship and the quantity. But it is an reasonable even that can drive a person crazy, if you consider the circumstances. Obito, unlike the others, was crashed by a rock, seemingly on the verge of death. He wanted to live on so bad, he had just gained the Sharigan, he was useful now and could become the hero he wanted to be, him and Kakashi were working like a team, and of course he always loved Rin., but never got to tell her and with the confidence he gained, surely he would now. But damn he get crushed, all he could do now was give Kakashi his eye, and ask him to look after rin. Do people not see this? His last words, or last favor he asked, was to protect Rin, to keep her safe and alive. Having said that, he could then die. What a person says in their last words, sums up everything for them. His world seems to have revolved upon his infatuation with Rin. When he was stitched back together again by Madara, all he thought about was Rin. That was his motivation during his whole rehabilitation. Then he saw the one he left her with kill her. Obviously loss can affect people differently, for one person it's quality to another quantity.
My personal opinion, although Obito does fit perfectly to me, there could have been a different angle to justify this more. Best would've been Madara's will being put in him, or Madara's brother will. Maybe Obito had a specific linage, perhaps not only did Madara live on, but his younger brother too - and Obito could've been his son or something. So being an offspring, his will could be put in him. They thought the body was completely dead, but turns out that obitio's consciousness was still holding on, due to his aims he made for himself, being hokage and being with rin. And this made a challenge, Brother's brother could not fully control the body, unless Obito completely submitting his will, or else obito would gain control at points. And this is where the rin and kakashi event comes into play, and after that obito becomes a willing participant and totally subdues his will to the indwelling will and consciousness of Madara's brother. This way you have a villain who has been skimming for a long time, capable of doing unknown things, which fixes all of the issues people bring up to discredit Obito. And since Obito's personality is still there, you get his reasons for subduing and why he would choose such a dreamworld and how he relates to Naruto, as the ultimate Anti-hero.
Last edited by Jammin; November 06, 2012 at 07:02 PM.