Naruto 609 Discussion

[Darkdrone]

if I had been kishi,I would have dealt with sacrifice techniques more. for example,I would have explained that deidara,who was already at kage level,using C0 achieved a strength comparable to 8gates (which should have made even a genin stronger than the hokage). in fact,in the anime deidara is freed and then captured again. that's a shame for a character like him. I would have put that in the manga,making A and tsunade meet him whilst they were running towards the jins. there I'd have made deidara use the C0,but a super raikage tanked it (tsunade escaped somehow,because A threw her away,and because A tanked c0 making it with a ray of just a km in that direction). thus,with his lightning,A should have speedblitzed deidara who was regenerating,and the samurai and the other ninjas could seal him again.

Diedara Kage level? What?

When was this established?

[xXan]

It would've been too slow. I do wonder if he could've surpised Minato with the Mokuton from a farther range and then warped him. However, I don't think that would've worked as Minato would've just got out of the way or teleported. Plus, I don't think Kamui can work the same way from that distance. If Obito tried to use the long range Kamui the way Kakashi did, Minato would've ate him up.

So it was not really to slow for Naruto but it would be to slow for Minato? I don't think so... Not only that wood element >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the bloody chain man.

Diedara Kage level? What?

When was this established?

He can mop the floor with Tsunade.. Does that help?

[Rikudou King]

For God's sake , Tobi still has IZANAGI ! Rinnegan's IZANAGI

so even if Kakashi stab him with Chidori , he would simply use IZANAGI and trolled them !! (well , but Naruto would troll Izanagi with some talk no jutsu as well !! )

Not really a factor since neither Kakashi or the others knows about Izanagi. If anything, that makes things worst, since Izanagi would have been the prefect excuse to explain him not being able to use the Rinnegan.

Not trying to be snide - but - DUH. The point was that Obito was warping. He warped several times after he absorbed Torune. Then he warped a bunch more times after he absorbed Fuu and he had both of them in there. He warped when he went to get Sauske. He warped when he dumped Sauske in front of Danzou. He warped when he escaped from Danzou's sealing technique. He warped when he left Sauske. He warped when he came back to get Sasuke away from Naruto. He warped TONS of times and never once did Fuu or Torune ever so much as try anything. If you were trapped in a mystery dimension and body parts were appearing and dissappearing out of nowhere wouldn't you at least TRY to grab onto them once or twice to see what happened? If they were obviously the body parts of your enemy, wouldn't you take a shot at them? Just ONCE? If you were a SENSOR wouldn't you be able to tell when/where they were showing up?

There's a difference between him phasing and warping. Phasing leaves him defenseless, whereas he'll be fully capable of attacking and such after warping inside. Now considering that we skipped from him warping in Fuu to him talking to Sasuke, clearly time had pass while he was in there, easily explaining when he likely caught them in a genjutsu and why they couldn't act after that.

Sorry - but the average stock-boy does less reaching than this. If this dimension is hypothetically endless - or 'miles' big even - then why is every single instance taking place in the same spot in this fight? If Obito's dimension is huge and he can dump people wherever he wants in it then WHY on earth is he having his phased body parts appear where they can be hit? If what you are saying made any sense then Obito would dump Kakashi and Naruto way out in some BFE part of his dimension, and have his phased body parts appear somewhere completely safe.

If he could do all the things you guys are claiming then he would be invincible. He would literally have no weakness. Nothing could stop him. He could have just warped up to anyone he wanted - sucked them up (INSTANTLY putting them in a genjutsu) and warped away knowing nothing (even stuff in his dimension) could possibly hurt him because he could just dump it anywhere he wanted and warp himself in some other safe part. The hits Naruto & Kakashi have gotten would not be possible.

Come on guys. Why can't you just bring yourselves to admit that his is a big, huge, massive, stupid fuster-cluck of a PLOT HOLE? Either Obito should have been hashed by Fuu/Torune OR he should have genjutsued Naurto/Kakashi when he sucked them up. There is no other choice here unless you just accept a bunch of illogical, implausible hypothetical bad excuses.

But it's clearly huge, otherwise we should have seen all those weapons and such he had stored inside. And aside from the recent example, none of those others were done by Obito. They were done by Kakashi's Kamui, meaning Obito wouldn't have had any sort of control over where they ended up. Hardly the worst plothole we've had, even recently.

[toussaintac]

Diedara Kage level? What?

When was this established?

When he almost killed Sasuke and Gaara and captured a bijuu and maybe another jinshuuriki. I thought we understood all of akatsuki was kage level?

---------- Post added at 01:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:49 PM ----------

So it was not really to slow for Naruto but it would be to slow for Minato? I don't think so... Not only that wood element >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the bloody chain man.



He can mop the floor with Tsunade.. Does that help?

Naruto wasn't exactly trying to avoid Tobi's attack. Plus, It doesn't really affect him anyway. Tobi seemingly can't suck him in unless he's closer. Plus, Minato fights completely different than naruto. Minato would've just teleported from the Mokuton Tobi just used.

[xXan]

Tobi needs to activate Izanagi before the damage, if Kakashi would gut him with a Raikiri at that point he would be DEAD. Damn if i understand why Kakashi decided to just punch the guy when the entire world is in balance...

Izanagi can't reverse the damage already done before its activation.

When he almost killed Sasuke and Gaara and captured a bijuu and maybe another jinshuuriki. I thought we understood all of akatsuki was kage level?

---------- Post added at 01:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:49 PM ----------



Naruto wasn't exactly trying to avoid Tobi's attack. Plus, It doesn't really affect him anyway. Tobi seemingly can't suck him in unless he's closer. Plus, Minato fights completely different than naruto. Minato would've just teleported from the Mokuton Tobi just used.

Again Tobi decided to use a CHAIN and yes Minato teleported out of that to. Naruto PUNCHED and Minato tried to stab in a similar fashion here:
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/502/12

The only diference is that aside for ST Naruto would be so much faster then Minato that its not even funny. So Tobi stoping Naruto's advance is WAY more harder then stoping Minato's ...

Face it its Kishi nerfing caractes to make a story... Plot no jutsu at its finest.

[toussaintac]

Tobi needs to activate Izanagi before the damage, if Kakashi would gut him with a Raikiri at that point he would be DEAD. Damn if i understand why Kakashi decided to just punch the guy when the entire world is in balance...

Izanagi can't reverse the damage already done before its activation.



Again Tobi decided to use a CHAIN and yes Minato teleported out of that to. Naruto PUNCHED and Minato tried to stab in a similar fashion here:
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/502/12

The only diference is that aside for ST Naruto would be so much faster then Minato that its not even funny. So Tobi stoping Naruto's advance is WAY more harder then stoping Minato's ...

Face it its Kishi nerfing caractes to make a story... Plot no jutsu at its finest.

Look, a lame mokuton extension would not work on Minato. It's too slow. Maybe naruto would or wouldn't be faster if not for Hiraishin, but we have no avidence for that and Minato does have Hiraishin. so Hirashin would teleport Minato from the chain, the grips of the chains, the mokuton and the grip of them. There is no nerf. If I were Obito I wouldn't try long range attacks against a guy that could telport from that far away and rasengan me in my anus. when it's best to fight speed fighters in close quarters anyway. that's what Obito did and he almost won.

[Uchiha_Blood]

Look, a lame mokuton extension would not work on Minato. It's too slow. Maybe naruto would or wouldn't be faster if not for Hiraishin, but we have no avidence for that and Minato does have Hiraishin. so Hirashin would teleport Minato from the chain, the grips of the chains, the mokuton and the grip of them. There is no nerf. If I were Obito I wouldn't try long range attacks against a guy that could telport from that far away and rasengan me in my anus. when it's best to fight speed fighters in close quarters anyway. that's what Obito did and he almost won.

Considering also he could just tag Mokuton branches, and the fight would've been over even faster

[xXan]

Look, a lame mokuton extension would not work on Minato. It's too slow. Maybe naruto would or wouldn't be faster if not for Hiraishin, but we have no avidence for that and Minato does have Hiraishin. so Hirashin would teleport Minato from the chain, the grips of the chains, the mokuton and the grip of them. There is no nerf. If I were Obito I wouldn't try long range attacks against a guy that could telport from that far away and rasengan me in my anus. when it's best to fight speed fighters in close quarters anyway. that's what Obito did and he almost won.

Yes and a chain would? Why would Tobi decide to use a chain and not wood element? Also its not to slow if it can grab Naruto in chakra mode lvl 2.
Naruto in RM is leagues above Minato if not for his ST. Now considering Minato did NOT use ST to attack Tobi at that point it would mean Naruto's punch was faster then Minato's stab (even considering Naruto was not moving at full speed).
Now if Tobi decided it would be a good idea to try to use a bloody chain to tie Minato up then Wood Element if a better choice.
Also Minato can't just telport he needs tags. Long ranged attacks work just fine. Not only that Tobi can shoot jutsus as he hold intangibility up making any counter attack irrelevant from Minato but Tobi decided is a bad a idea to make a hole in his mask to shoot Katons because he has an ugly mouth...

EDIT: How about Danzo's bodyguards? They where able to teleport like Minato to? Would wood element be a bad idea vs them to?

Considering also he could just tag Mokuton branches, and the fight would've been over even faster

Yes because wood element don't grow outword right? So they would not be moving AWAY from Tobi right? Then Tobi can't remove that part of the root or whatever it is if its tagged...

If Tobi decides its a great idea to try to use a chain to stop Minato then using Wood Element is so much better option its not even funny. Its just that it was to hard for Kishi to make Minato show some extra tools and have Tobi show some more jutsus... Of course at that point Tobi was probably Madara....

Then i will never understand what moron would not make a hole in the mask where his mouth is to shoot Katons. When it comes to Obito is bad writing true and true.

EDIT: How about Danzo's bodyguards? They where able to teleport like Minato to? Would wood element be a bad idea vs them to?

[Uchiha_Blood]

Yes and a chain would? Why would Tobi decide to use a chain and not wood element? Also its not to slow if it can grab Naruto in chakra mode lvl 2.

Obito never caught Naruto in Bijuu Mode, only with Chakra Mode he came close, and that was either Obito exploiting the terrain to his advantage or Naruto acting as bait.
It does help also that Naruto isn't nearly as fast as you think

Yes because wood element don't grow outword right? So they would not be moving AWAY from Tobi right? Then Tobi can't remove that part of the root or whatever it is if its tagged...

If Tobi decides its a great idea to try to use a chain to stop Minato then using Wood Element is so much better option its not even funny. Its just that it was to hard for Kishi to make Minato show some extra tools and have Tobi show some more jutsus... Of course at that point Tobi was probably Madara....

Then i will never understand what moron would not make a hole in the mask where his mouth is to shoot Katons. When it comes to Obito is bad writing true and true.

Point is, they are both useless.
Mokuton is useful against Bijuus, otherwise is just wood, resilient wood alright but it can't trap Yondaime. Obito's best bet was Kamui, which was the superior jutsu, chains or Mokuton really doesn't change a thing.

Same with katons, if even Raikage couldn't touch Yondaime I doubt a ninjutsu will, really.

[toussaintac]

Considering also he could just tag Mokuton branches, and the fight would've been over even faster

Pretty much. I wonder if Minato could've followed Obito in and out of his dimension once he tagged him.

---------- Post added at 03:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:01 PM ----------

Yes and a chain would? Why would Tobi decide to use a chain and not wood element? Also its not to slow if it can grab Naruto in chakra mode lvl 2.
Naruto in RM is leagues above Minato if not for his ST. Now considering Minato did NOT use ST to attack Tobi at that point it would mean Naruto's punch was faster then Minato's stab (even considering Naruto was not moving at full speed).
Now if Tobi decided it would be a good idea to try to use a bloody chain to tie Minato up then Wood Element if a better choice.
Also Minato can't just telport he needs tags. Long ranged attacks work just fine. Not only that Tobi can shoot jutsus as he hold intangibility up making any counter attack irrelevant from Minato but Tobi decided is a bad a idea to make a hole in his mask to shoot Katons because he has an ugly mouth...

EDIT: How about Danzo's bodyguards? They where able to teleport like Minato to? Would wood element be a bad idea vs them to?



Yes because wood element don't grow outword right? So they would not be moving AWAY from Tobi right? Then Tobi can't remove that part of the root or whatever it is if its tagged...

If Tobi decides its a great idea to try to use a chain to stop Minato then using Wood Element is so much better option its not even funny. Its just that it was to hard for Kishi to make Minato show some extra tools and have Tobi show some more jutsus... Of course at that point Tobi was probably Madara....

Then i will never understand what moron would not make a hole in the mask where his mouth is to shoot Katons. When it comes to Obito is bad writing true and true.

EDIT: How about Danzo's bodyguards? They where able to teleport like Minato to? Would wood element be a bad idea vs them to?

They can't even use it like Minato. It takes three of them if I recall. This debate is over.

[xXan]

@Uchiha_Blood

Obito never caught Naruto in Bijuu Mode, only with Chakra Mode he came close, and that was either Obito exploiting the terrain to his advantage or Naruto acting as bait.
It does help also that Naruto isn't nearly as fast as you think

Well yeah chakra mode? Did i say Biju Mode? I was refering to this:
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/609/3

Its not exploting anything. Its Naruto punching and him using Wood Element fast enough to stop said attack.

Then Naruto is not as fast as i think? I think he is faster then Raikage in chakra mode lvl 1 before his curent upgrade, fast enough to move his ENTIRE BODY out of the way before Raikage can move his hand 1 cm (full speed Raikage). Can you understand what a feat this is? He can move his entire body faster then Raikage can move his hand 1 cm.
Then i think he is fast enough to deflect multiple bijudamas coming from multiple directions with speed allone. Such speed that even Kakashi was going WTF, is that really Naruto....
Then i think he was a blur even before Bee...

Anything wrong from the above list? I can link you the events.

Point is, they are both useless.
Mokuton is useful against Bijuus, otherwise is just wood, resilient wood alright but it can't trap Yondaime. Obito's best bet was Kamui, which was the superior jutsu, chains or Mokuton really doesn't change a thing.

Point is you missed the point. Its bad writing from Kishi to make Obito use a chain to trap Minato when he could use wood element. The fact that both are horible tactics is another show of Kishi's horble caracter design. Obito after YEARS of training and what not with Minato belived he can stop him by puting a chain on him... This is not about what would work on Minato but why Tobi acted like a complete idiot, forgot abilities and used kindargarden tactics.

Then aparently that wood element was strong enough to stop chakra mode lvl 2 Naruto dead in his tracks... That is more then enough so Minato can't move a finger (of course he can teleport out) so why use a bloody chain?

Then how about Danzo's bodyhuards? Why not go EMO on them like he did when he noticed Rin die? At first i belived he can't do that as he needs Zetsu suit for it (no idea why he would even remove it but meh) but aparently he can use Wood Element just fine as he is now... So WTF? You tell me what this is if not bad writing?

Same with katons, if even Raikage couldn't touch Yondaime I doubt a ninjutsu will, really.

Minato is NOT the only enemy Tobi had to fight. To handicap himself the way he did makes NO sense. Now if Tobi moved Minato in a place where he does not have tags and used the Katon then that would put Minato in a bad place forcing him to teleport to a far away Kunai and probably have no way to get back to Tobi in a fast way.

Let's not forget what was showed in this last chapter... Why would Tobi put Danzou's bodyguards in his dimension or even worse MINATO if what happened with Kakashi can happened at any time? He would risk getting killed from inside his own dimension by placing people there... I belive he can store them in a safe place but aparently that is not so... Makes no sense... Bad wirting and whatever else you whant.

Pretty much. I wonder if Minato could've followed Obito in and out of his dimension once he tagged him.

---------- Post added at 03:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:01 PM ----------



They can't even use it like Minato. It takes three of them if I recall. This debate is over.

Yes you are right. No point debating this with you. You can't even read a sentence and get it right. Try reading 10 times the same line perhaps you will get it eventualy.

[flameorigin]

If Obito honestly doesn't care about Kakashi....and has the same power...why doesn't he just tear Kakashi's limbs apart with Kamui like Kaka did to deidera

[M3J]

Would think that the Pain Invasion handled that well enough. There's not really a lesson to be learnt if Naruto's not allowed to actually fail.

Not really, considering everyone got revived in the end anyway. Jiraiya's death was before the invasion, which gave Naruto enough time to deal with the grief and shock.

then why didn't he invaded the turtle island where Naruto was training with Bee? we saw Kabuto doing that.

Kabuto, if I recall, was only able to find it because of Manda 2.

on point of why he didnt hit Tobi with Raikiri, didnt it said earlier in the manga that chidori/raikiri need body acceleration and then thrust ?

I don't think it said that, but the acceleration helped increase the penetration power of chidori/raikiri. Take swords for example. If you stab someone, the sword will pierce, but not too much. If you stab with momentum from running, the sword would go in much further.

ok so just to get this straight...Kiba, Hinata, neji, rock lee, sakura, sasuke , kakashi, gai, bee, Tsunade, Gaara-- one of them should die? as they are the closest to naruto

and really naruto already lost his teacher so i think he gets the pain thing....hell if anyone dies i want it to be naruto...just because it would be something i never say coming, imagine naruto dies to save the world and its only after his death that he is givin the honorary tittle of "hokage" or "kage" of the ninja world

Or one of those aides to Tsunade, or Kankuro, or anyone that Naruto knows. Otherwise the whole "war is pain" thing is kind of irrelevant. He lost his teacher before war, not durin war.

Mind you, Naruto lost both of his parents, which is one of the major pains of war as a child, especially in a ninja-styled world where surviving for yourself is mandatory, and the only people you can trust are your direct family (which turns out to be false anyway... the Uchiha's are unique individuals).

He never lost them in a war or when he knew them, though.

[WEERG]

I said the same thing after Nagato turned into Mother Teresa and used the Dragon Balls to bring ever back to life. Idk, its just funny to see that Bleach's plot makes more sense then whatever this is. lolz

not trying to be mean but maybe the manga died along time ago for use, but not for others, Kishi will pull something out his ass it ain't one of the best mangas for nothing.

---------- Post added at 09:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:35 PM ----------

Why would Kakashi leave the other dimension without killing Obito?

Maybe he wants to save Obito or maybe he doesn't have that much chakra to waste or he still feels guilty

[Uchiha_Blood]

@Uchiha_Blood


Well yeah chakra mode? Did i say Biju Mode? I was refering to this:
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/609/3

Its not exploting anything. Its Naruto punching and him using Wood Element fast enough to stop said attack.

Then Naruto is not as fast as i think? I think he is faster then Raikage in chakra mode lvl 1 before his curent upgrade, fast enough to move his ENTIRE BODY out of the way before Raikage can move his hand 1 cm (full speed Raikage). Can you understand what a feat this is? He can move his entire body faster then Raikage can move his hand 1 cm.
Then i think he is fast enough to deflect multiple bijudamas coming from multiple directions with speed allone. Such speed that even Kakashi was going WTF, is that really Naruto....
Then i think he was a blur even before Bee...

Anything wrong from the above list? I can link you the events.

What you clearly don't understand is that Naruto's maximum speed is done by shunshin, and no one except Raikages fight using shunshin to move around.
Call it plot or whatever, but no one exploited it more than once or twice in a single battle.
That's why you'll have Obito binding a charging Naruto ( by the way, how is that a feat if it was useless against Naruto, despite Mokuton's draining powers? ), or Jinchuurikis hitting Naruto despite not being nearly as fast as Raikage.
Because, again, movement speed =/= shunshin speed.
This isn't dragonball, where every movement is a fast one

Point is you missed the point. Its bad writing from Kishi to make Obito use a chain to trap Minato when he could use wood element. The fact that both are horible tactics is another show of Kishi's horble caracter design. Obito after YEARS of training and what not with Minato belived he can stop him by puting a chain on him... This is not about what would work on Minato but why Tobi acted like a complete idiot, forgot abilities and used kindargarden tactics.

Then aparently that wood element was strong enough to stop chakra mode lvl 2 Naruto dead in his tracks... That is more then enough so Minato can't move a finger (of course he can teleport out) so why use a bloody chain?

Then how about Danzo's bodyhuards? Why not go EMO on them like he did when he noticed Rin die? At first i belived he can't do that as he needs Zetsu suit for it (no idea why he would even remove it but meh) but aparently he can use Wood Element just fine as he is now... So WTF? You tell me what this is if not bad writing?

How is that bad writing?
Obito clearly wanted to bind Yondaime long enough to teleport him with kamui, chains or Mokuton would've served the same purpose, as in none.
Of course he probably didn't intend for Tobi to have Mokuton at that point, but even if he did, it wouldn't have mattered, since both are, ultimately, useless in that situation.

And it stopped ( even if it didn't ) Naruto because Mokuton drains, binds and suppresses Bijuu chakra.

As for Danzou's guards...
Why would he need Mokuton if he soloed them both in not even a chapter, despite it being 2 on 1?

Minato is NOT the only enemy Tobi had to fight. To handicap himself the way he did makes NO sense. Now if Tobi moved Minato in a place where he does not have tags and used the Katon then that would put Minato in a bad place forcing him to teleport to a far away Kunai and probably have no way to get back to Tobi in a fast way.

Let's not forget what was showed in this last chapter... Why would Tobi put Danzou's bodyguards in his dimension or even worse MINATO if what happened with Kakashi can happened at any time? He would risk getting killed from inside his own dimension by placing people there... I belive he can store them in a safe place but aparently that is not so... Makes no sense... Bad wirting and whatever else you whant.

How would Obito move Yondaime in a place without tags if Yondaime held up a kunai in his hand ?
He uses a katon? Shunshin out of the way, no Hiraishin needed.
Really, not that difficult.

And the guys were genjutsu'ed by Obito effortlessy, so really, in both occasions he did nothing wrong.