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Thread: Naruto 609 Discussion

  1. #316
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Invader's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 609 Discussion/ 610 Prediction

    Quote Quote:
    How is that bad writing?
    It is bad writing because Kishi is the person that establishes the details of the plot, characters, and setting. Kishi is the one that created the rules and logical structures of how "things" worked in the fictional world of Naruto. And then he is the one that turns around and ignores what he's said, violates his own rules, has his characters do things that make no sense, and takes a big long steaming dump on his own story continuity and characterization.

    If I create a world where a character has the ability to turn other characters into butter when he touches them, then I - as a writer - MUST craft my plot in such a way as to accommodate that decision. If my character can turn people in to butter by touch, and then DOESN'T use that power to defend himself at a critical moment, then I bloody well better (as the writer) provide some sort of explanation or reason for it. If I don't, then it creates cognitive dissonance in the mind of the reader, pulls them out of the experience, and generally results in an inferior story.

    Yes - every once in a while a writer can (and maybe should) violate their own logic for the sake of the story - but you have to be very careful when you do it - and you shouldn't do it very often. But Kishi isn't doing that. He's breaking his own rules all the time now, and his characters are constantly doing things that make little or no sense. Every chapter is showing 100 new things that violate his own story premise or contradict his own plot/character decisions. THAT is lousy writing.

    Quote Quote:
    And the guys were genjutsu'ed by Obito effortlessy
    So we're supposed to believe that Obito can put anyone he wants in a genjutsu simply by touching them & sucking him into his dimension. Then WHY didn't he do that to Naruto & Kakashi? Exact same circumstances. Completely different result. This is LOUSY WRITING.
    Last edited by Invader; November 15, 2012 at 06:00 PM.
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  3. #317
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    Re: Naruto 609 Discussion/ 610 Prediction

    Quote Originally Posted by Invader View Post
    It is bad writing because Kishi is the person that establishes the details of the plot, characters, and setting. Kishi is the one that created the rules and logical structures of how "things" worked in the fictional world of Naruto. And then he is the one that turns around and ignores what he's said, violates his own rules, has his characters do things that make no sense, and takes a big long steaming dump on his own story continuity and characterization.

    If I create a world where a character has the ability to turn other characters into butter when he touches them, then I - as a writer - MUST craft my plot in such a way as to accommodate that decision. If my character can turn people in to butter by touch, and then DOESN'T use that power to defend himself at a critical moment, then I bloody well better (as the writer) provide some sort of explanation or reason for it. If I don't, then it creates cognitive dissonance in the mind of the reader, pulls them out of the experience, and generally results in an inferior story.

    Yes - every once in a while a writer can (and maybe should) violate their own logic for the sake of the story - but you have to be very careful when you do it - and you shouldn't do it very often. But Kishi isn't doing that. He's breaking his own rules all the time now, and his characters are constantly doing things that make little or no sense. Every chapter is showing 100 new things that violate his own story premise or contradict his own plot/character decisions. THAT is lousy writing.
    He actually answered that question right below it and it's plausible.

  4. #318
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Invader's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 609 Discussion/ 610 Prediction

    Quote Quote:
    He actually answered that question and its plausible
    No - he really didn't, and no it really wasn't. Obito soloed Fuu/Torune. Fine. Doesn't explain in any way why they didn't clobber him the 6 or 7 different times he phased after he absorbed them like Kakashi just did. You either have to assume Fuu/Torune...

    (A) were so stupid they wouldn't attack their enemy when they saw his body parts dangling like ripe fruit in front of them...
    (B) were instantly genjutsued by Obito who has never used that power on anyone else before or since (when Torune was facing the opposite direction to boot!)...
    (C) were dumped in a 'safe' area of the dimension so Obito could ignore them - again begging the question WHY has Obito never done this with anyone else before or since...

    Neither answered NOR making sense.
    Hidan... Naruto's ONLY real villain!

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  6. #319
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    Re: Naruto 609 Discussion/ 610 Prediction

    Quote Originally Posted by Invader View Post
    It is bad writing because Kishi is the person that establishes the details of the plot, characters, and setting. Kishi is the one that created the rules and logical structures of how "things" worked in the fictional world of Naruto. And then he is the one that turns around and ignores what he's said, violates his own rules, has his characters do things that make no sense, and takes a big long steaming dump on his own story continuity and characterization.

    If I create a world where a character has the ability to turn other characters into butter when he touches them, then I - as a writer - MUST craft my plot in such a way as to accommodate that decision. If my character can turn people in to butter by touch, and then DOESN'T use that power to defend himself at a critical moment, then I bloody well better (as the writer) provide some sort of explanation or reason for it. If I don't, then it creates cognitive dissonance in the mind of the reader, pulls them out of the experience, and generally results in an inferior story.

    Yes - every once in a while a writer can (and maybe should) violate their own logic for the sake of the story - but you have to be very careful when you do it - and you shouldn't do it very often. But Kishi isn't doing that. He's breaking his own rules all the time now, and his characters are constantly doing things that make little or no sense. Every chapter is showing 100 new things that violate his own story premise or contradict his own plot/character decisions. THAT is lousy writing.
    So Obito not using Mokuton, which would have been useless, is bad writing?
    That means that Naruto not using Rasengan instead of chakrarms now is bad writing, because Rasengan does more damage.
    No, it doesn't work like this.
    Obito used its strongest jutsu, a Space/Time ninjutsu which was admittedly superior to Hiraishin to fight, and got beaten.
    Simple as that. It isn't bad writing imo

    If the issue is Fu and Torune, as it seems, I'll answer below

    Quote Quote:
    So we're supposed to believe that Obito can put anyone he wants in a genjutsu simply by touching them & sucking him into his dimension. Then WHY didn't he do that to Naruto & Kakashi? Exact same circumstances. Completely different result. This is LOUSY WRITING.
    No, of course not.
    You forgot though that Obito didn't use Kamui after that little struggle, except when he teleported out of Danzou's Fuuinjutsu. And then he could easily reapper in his Kamui dimension at will and genjutsu'd/beat up those fodders.
    Or simply let them out, genjutsu'd/beat them up, and suck them in again afterwards.

    Obito's use of Kamui against Yondaime is simple:
    buy time for Kyuubi to wreck chaos on Konoha, until his control was up and he could capture the beast, or simply teleport him on a very distant location, seeing as Hiraishin has a predetermined range.

    Against those fodders he used the quickest method to take them out, or what, should've used Mokuton on those 2 for no reason, informing Danzou that he had Mokuton as well?
    And say Sasuke failed and Danzou had Kotoamatsukami, all Obito would have to do would be run like a bitch and let Danzou escape with that vital information

  7. #320
    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 609 Discussion/ 610 Prediction

    Quote Originally Posted by Roman View Post
    I keep reading your nonsense but this shit just hit the fan. I mean, seriously? Towards what is your "reasoning" headed to? Downplaying Minato's abilities? For fuck's sake, the dude was the fastest man alive. Do you seriously think that Obito's shitty wood element attacks would work against a teleportation technique? It would catch him, if the wood element technique was on the scale as Hashirama's or Madara's was. Period.
    Considering the fact that Tobi did get Minato wrapped in chains once and nearly teleported him away, yes it could have worked. The element of surprise is the key, which is why Minato was in trouble on those two occasions. If Minato knew about the Mokuton, Tobi would probably not get anywhere close to touching MInato with it, but there was almost no info on Tobi. Don't underestimate the power of element of surprise. The first time Raikage went for falcon punch, he was extremely close to touching Minato. Second time, when Minato knew about Raikage's speed, Raikage didn't even come that close. Minato's proven that his reflexes and Hiraishin are what save him from surprises, IF he has time to react. If Tobi timed it right, Minato would have been stabbed before he could react.

    That said, Tobi showing ability to use Mokuton is stupid. Would have preferred going with Tobi going all out as he could at that time (not using kaaton to hide his face) and got bested, though running away only because he lost control of the Kyuubi. The only thing I can think of that makes sense is that Tobi didn't want to or try to kill Minato.


    In the end though, Minato still survived against Tobi and made him retreat, even if it wasn't because Minato beat Tobi. So far, no other character has managed to do that.

  8. #321
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    Re: Naruto 609 Discussion/ 610 Prediction

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    Yes and a chain would? Why would Tobi decide to use a chain and not wood element? Also its not to slow if it can grab Naruto in chakra mode lvl 2.
    Naruto in RM is leagues above Minato if not for his ST. Now considering Minato did NOT use ST to attack Tobi at that point it would mean Naruto's punch was faster then Minato's stab (even considering Naruto was not moving at full speed).
    Now if Tobi decided it would be a good idea to try to use a bloody chain to tie Minato up then Wood Element if a better choice.
    Also Minato can't just telport he needs tags. Long ranged attacks work just fine. Not only that Tobi can shoot jutsus as he hold intangibility up making any counter attack irrelevant from Minato but Tobi decided is a bad a idea to make a hole in his mask to shoot Katons because he has an ugly mouth...

    EDIT: How about Danzo's bodyguards? They where able to teleport like Minato to? Would wood element be a bad idea vs them to?



    Yes because wood element don't grow outword right? So they would not be moving AWAY from Tobi right? Then Tobi can't remove that part of the root or whatever it is if its tagged...

    If Tobi decides its a great idea to try to use a chain to stop Minato then using Wood Element is so much better option its not even funny. Its just that it was to hard for Kishi to make Minato show some extra tools and have Tobi show some more jutsus... Of course at that point Tobi was probably Madara....

    Then i will never understand what moron would not make a hole in the mask where his mouth is to shoot Katons. When it comes to Obito is bad writing true and true.

    EDIT: How about Danzo's bodyguards? They where able to teleport like Minato to? Would wood element be a bad idea vs them to?
    Too many excuses.

    And honestly, your arguments doesn't make any sense at all. You're already accussing kishi for a bad writing just because you don't like how he explained obito's character.
    Just remember, this manga is still in progress. You can see a new jutsu of naruto that he never used in kakuzu, pain, deidara and obito. And when the time comes, you'll see an amazing jutsu of minato that he never used on obito. That's not a bad writing nor a plothole, that's the basic sense of a story.

    And does obito need his mokuton to deal with fuu and torune? He never fought them at all. He's just playing with them.

    And maybe all of the anbus are all freaking morons because their mask doesn't have any holes on it.

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  10. #322
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    Re: Naruto 609 Discussion/ 610 Prediction

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    Considering the fact that Tobi did get Minato wrapped in chains once and nearly teleported him away, yes it could have worked. The element of surprise is the key, which is why Minato was in trouble on those two occasions. If Minato knew about the Mokuton, Tobi would probably not get anywhere close to touching MInato with it, but there was almost no info on Tobi. Don't underestimate the power of element of surprise. The first time Raikage went for falcon punch, he was extremely close to touching Minato. Second time, when Minato knew about Raikage's speed, Raikage didn't even come that close. Minato's proven that his reflexes and Hiraishin are what save him from surprises, IF he has time to react. If Tobi timed it right, Minato would have been stabbed before he could react.

    That said, Tobi showing ability to use Mokuton is stupid. Would have preferred going with Tobi going all out as he could at that time (not using kaaton to hide his face) and got bested, though running away only because he lost control of the Kyuubi. The only thing I can think of that makes sense is that Tobi didn't want to or try to kill Minato.


    In the end though, Minato still survived against Tobi and made him retreat, even if it wasn't because Minato beat Tobi. So far, no other character has managed to do that.
    So the argument is the element of surprise. I don't think the debate was circling around that exact reason as to why would Obito's wood attack hit Minato but okay, you're right in that aspect. But in a prolonged battle in which Minato already experienced that attack at least once, wouldn't you think that he'd counter it the second time even without the Hiraishin? Given his ability as a ninja, it's safe to assume that it would be so.

  11. #323
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    Re: Naruto 609 Discussion/ 610 Prediction

    Quote Originally Posted by Roman View Post
    So the argument is the element of surprise. I don't think the debate was circling around that exact reason as to why would Obito's wood attack hit Minato but okay, you're right in that aspect. But in a prolonged battle in which Minato already experienced that attack at least once, wouldn't you think that he'd counter it the second time even without the Hiraishin? Given his ability as a ninja, it's safe to assume that it would be so.
    Dunno what the debate is about, but I'm just pointing it out in general that element of surprise can be enough to hit Minato. People keep insisting Minato's untouchable when Tobi proved he's not.

    Depends. If Mokuton attack is too close, I'm not sure if Minato could counter. If he saw it coming, he would definitely be able to counter. If Tobi used Mokuton ten feet away for the first time, it's not going to work on Minato. If he used it like, an inch away, Minato wouldn't be able to counter that.

    Mokuton would have been useful, or more useful than just for defense (I'm assuming that's the only reason Tobi tanked rasengan like nothing) against Minato. So far, all we can say is that Tobi held back every time after Madara saved him. He could have used kaaton, but didn't because he didn't want to reveal his identity. He could have used Mokuton but for some reason didn't. He could have used other jutsu like that Uchiha barrier jutsu to protect himself but chose not to for some reason.

  12. #324
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member enmymiguel's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 609 Discussion/ 610 Prediction

    wow if obito get the other eyes. he will be a hard guy to fight if you think about it. not only you cant hit him and everything you send him, he will transport it to another dimension and he will have the susanoo to make things more hard
    I must create a real village, until i demonstrate what a real kage is. I cant Die!

  13. #325
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    Re: Naruto 609 Discussion/ 610 Prediction

    I thought the chapter was average. Obito is turning out to be a joke. A few chapters ago, Naruto was getting save every other chapter, now Naruto is out of his league.
    Madara sits back and watch like Obito get beat without a care in the world..

    I hope this was a transition chapter so they can switch back to Sasuke.

    ---------- Post added at 07:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:00 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by enmymiguel View Post
    wow if obito get the other eyes. he will be a hard guy to fight if you think about it. not only you cant hit him and everything you send him, he will transport it to another dimension and he will have the susanoo to make things more hard
    Susanoo is not a giving just cause he has both eyes, is rare.

  14. #326
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted ninjabot's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 609 Discussion/ 610 Prediction

    Quote Originally Posted by Invader
    No - he really didn't, and no it really wasn't. Obito soloed Fuu/Torune. Fine. Doesn't explain in any way why they didn't clobber him the 6 or 7 different times he phased after he absorbed them like Kakashi just did. You either have to assume Fuu/Torune...
    There are some ways that it could work, and though I doubt you'll accept any of them as realistic options, I'll give the example I like the most.

    Remember, whenever the kunai, the Rasengan that hit Obito, the clone that broke his mask, and Kakashi when he just recently punched him in the stomach and face? What do all of these instances have in common?

    When Obito absorbed someone or went intangible, he always stayed in the exact same area. And if you consider Kamuiville as the different side of the same coin, then it means after transporting something from Point A on side one, it appears at Point A on side 2.

    A B C D
    ----------
    a b c d

    Top is normal world, bottom is inside Kamui. If he absorbs Torune at A, and then uses the intangibility, but only after moving someways away to say... c, then the part that goes intangible will be far enough that Torune can't hit him.

    There's also one outrageously obvious reason that's more likely: You're blowing things waaaaay outta proportion. Obito only transports a portion of his body away when using his intangibility, unless an attack is so big it covers his entire body. Niether Fuu nor Torune had a chance to injure Obito during the fight prior to Danzou vs. Sasuke. You know how long It was before Sasuke was done with his fight? Obito didn't use his teleportation again till far later (after the fight). Both Fuu and Torune was probably running around screaming bloody murder in an attempt to escape so, by the time he returned to the alternate dimension, they were in no position to take advantage of the sense of surprise because they were so far away.

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  16. #327
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member enmymiguel's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 609 Discussion/ 610 Prediction

    Quote Originally Posted by Prince Sasuke View Post
    I thought the chapter was average. Obito is turning out to be a joke. A few chapters ago, Naruto was getting save every other chapter, now Naruto is out of his league.
    Madara sits back and watch like Obito get beat without a care in the world..

    I hope this was a transition chapter so they can switch back to Sasuke.

    ---------- Post added at 07:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:00 PM ----------



    Susanoo is not a giving just cause he has both eyes, is rare.
    thats what they say about rare, bullsh cause every single guy who happen to have the ms have the susanoo, itachi-sasuke-and madara. i would be not surprice if obito have it if he get the other eyes
    I must create a real village, until i demonstrate what a real kage is. I cant Die!

  17. #328
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member EnvyOS's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 609 Discussion/ 610 Prediction

    I wonder if the jyuubi will notice a resemblance of Naruto and the RS.

  18. #329
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    Re: Naruto 609 Discussion/ 610 Prediction

    Quote Originally Posted by EnvyOS View Post
    I wonder if the jyuubi will notice a resemblance of Naruto and the RS.
    For narutos sake he better hope it dose not.....i am pretty sure the 10 tails is not a fan of the RS
    "Keep Eating Shit For The Rest Of Your Life " - 愛憎のロクサーヌ- Roxanne of Love and Hate

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  20. #330
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    Re: Naruto 609 Discussion/ 610 Prediction

    Quote Originally Posted by enmymiguel View Post
    thats what they say about rare, bullsh cause every single guy who happen to have the ms have the susanoo, itachi-sasuke-and madara. i would be not surprice if obito have it if he get the other eyes
    Shisui was never said to have Susanoo, and Itachi was surprise that Sasuke could use Susanoo aswell.

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