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Thread: Broken bankais

  1. #16
    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Zehahaha's Avatar
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    Re: Broken bankais

    Oh come on kkck, we've seen Renji using his Bankai after his fight with Byakuya and it was completely intact and didn't lack in strength at all (heck even Kbo said that Renji's Bankai changed apparently), we've seen also Mayuri's Bankai cut in half and yet he managed to get it back to its original state

    This is clearly an ASSPULL no matter how much you put it, it's an asspull in order for Ichigo to use his Quincy powers, undergo whatever training again that's all

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Sanadan's Avatar
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    Re: Broken bankais

    Quote Originally Posted by Zehahaha View Post
    Oh come on kkck, we've seen Renji using his Bankai after his fight with Byakuya and it was completely intact and didn't lack in strength at all (heck even Kbo said that Renji's Bankai changed apparently), we've seen also Mayuri's Bankai cut in half and yet he managed to get it back to its original state

    This is clearly an ASSPULL no matter how much you put it, it's an asspull in order for Ichigo to use his Quincy powers, undergo whatever training again that's all
    Didn't Mayuri break his zan in half when the bankai was no longer active? Also Renju using his bankai against Buakuya was the first time he used it in combat, the damage done might not have been as big of a downgrade as the increase in skill was an upgrade.
    Could the Sage of Six Paths be named Sanada Yukimura?

  3. #18
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Exodi's Avatar
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    Re: Broken bankais

    Quote Originally Posted by Zehahaha View Post
    Oh come on kkck, we've seen Renji using his Bankai after his fight with Byakuya and it was completely intact and didn't lack in strength at all (heck even Kbo said that Renji's Bankai changed apparently), we've seen also Mayuri's Bankai cut in half and yet he managed to get it back to its original state

    This is clearly an ASSPULL no matter how much you put it, it's an asspull in order for Ichigo to use his Quincy powers, undergo whatever training again that's all
    We know neither of those things for certain.

  4. #19
    MangaHelper 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member zimbardo's Avatar
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    Re: Broken bankais

    I actually quite like the bankai business - and I can happily ignore Mayuri's (as who knows what he has done to his poor haloed baby faced caterpillar beast ) possible inconsistency.

    Does make me feel a bit sorry for poor Hitsugaya though - his bankai (and Hitsugaya himself) keep getting cut in half - his undeveloped bankai must be weakening with every fight (not improving as many fans hope...)
    Infinite RAGE!

  5. #20
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Anduren's Avatar
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    Re: Broken bankais

    The key bit of information I got out of the explanation given by Mayuri was that the reason Komamura was an exception was him and his bankai being "strongly bound to each other." This means Ichigo should also be able to restore his zanpakuto considering he already went through the trouble of merging with it at one point. Once he lost his shinigami abilities and got them restored to him, the new bankai he got was definitely different from the one he started out with (even if the differences were because of the ones who transferred their abilities to him). On top of that, Ichigo loses half his bankai everytime he gets hit by something (like Ulquiorra's cero) and both Orihime and Unohana have been able to restore it to him. Technically there shouldn't be anything Orihime can't fix; heck she should've been able to restore Ichigo's shinigami powers once he lost it if Kubo wanted to leave out the fulbringer stuff.

    But I understand the inconsistency in the story with broken bankais; even if they can be explained away with technical loopholes like Mayuri modifying his living bankai or Renji's having the ability to separate and come back together - even if you use that as the reason his was restored to have no visible differences.

    I also think that, in the least, there's a conflict between Mayuri and Ichigo's conversation in this latest chapter and Unohana and Ichigo's conversation when they were heading to fake karakura town where Ichigo plainly says his shihakushou is a part of his bankai and all he needs to restore it is to have his reiatsu restored.

    I guess though, if Mayuri is strictly referring to actual swords in bankai states, people like Byakuya are immune since he doesn't have a singular sword version in bankai. But if he isn't then that would've also meant Soi Fon has no refills for her bankai missile and Ichimaru's sword would be unsalvageable once he uses up all his bankai as he did in his attempt to kill Aizen (leaving parts of his sword inside people as poison).

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  7. #21
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member darkprince0521's Avatar
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    Re: Broken bankais

    Quote Originally Posted by Exodi View Post
    It all makes sense to me.

    A bankai is the full expression of a zanpakutou. It's like getting a scar, if you will. Or losing an arm and getting a prosthetic. So, if it's broken and can be repaired, it won't be at the same way that it was originally.

    Also, let's look at this:
    http://www.mangahere.com/manga/bleach/v35/c306/10.html

    "As long as the handle remains, I can easily recreate it."

    Let's look at Renji's "obliterated" bankai.
    http://www.mangahere.com/manga/bleach/v17/c143/7.html

    Neat, the handle is still there.

    Let's just assume that what Mayuri said applies to bankai as well.
    In any case, the point is that once a bankai is broken, it can never be repaired to its original state.
    Furtheremore, in all of the cases Mayuri mentioned (Ikkaku, Renji, Komamura, and Ichigo), the handle was intact.

    That's my two cents. We might not like it (I personally am fine with it), but we have to take Mayuri's word as fact now.
    forgive me for being oblivious. but in Ichigo's case, the handle is intact as well.
    Naruto Forever


  8. #22
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    Re: Broken bankais

    Quote Originally Posted by Anduren View Post
    I guess though, if Mayuri is strictly referring to actual swords in bankai states, people like Byakuya are immune since he doesn't have a singular sword version in bankai. But if he isn't then that would've also meant Soi Fon has no refills for her bankai missile and Ichimaru's sword would be unsalvageable once he uses up all his bankai as he did in his attempt to kill Aizen (leaving parts of his sword inside people as poison).
    Those aren't cases in which bankais are destroyed, but just used for their purposes, so bad example
    Erfworld

    Quote Originally Posted by Bromamura View Post
    Meh can't have Bleach without fan raging, makes it fun.

  9. #23
    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Zehahaha's Avatar
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    Re: Broken bankais

    Quote Originally Posted by Exodi View Post
    We know neither of those things for certain.
    Go reread manga and see how Renji's Bankai look like vs IlForte and Szayel, and even Yammy if I recall right, and look at his Bankai after it was completely shattered by Byakuya's Bankai, it was completely shattered, not just some part, but completely
    If it wasn't intact, we would've seen it, and if it lacked strength, no way Renji would have survived this long with a weak ass Bankai

    Quote Quote:
    Didn't Mayuri break his zan in half when the bankai was no longer active? Also Renju using his bankai against Buakuya was the first time he used it in combat, the damage done might not have been as big of a downgrade as the increase in skill was an upgrade.
    No, I'm talking about his fight vs Ishida where his Bankai was cut in half thanks to Ishida (and i'm even disregarding the self destruction thing), now Mayuri said that a broken bankai cannot be repaired, yet his Bankai was more than broken if you ask me, and yet it returned to its original state and all

    As for Zanpakuto in its sealed state/Shikai being broken, that's easy, we've seen not only Mayuri's Zanpakuto being broken and repaired, and even modified (notice the guard of his sword has changed), Renji's Zabimaru was repaired (by itself) when he was imprisoned back at SS arc, and vs Aizen too when it was destroyed by him at Sogyoku Hill. Ikkaku's Hozukimaru too got broken only to be repaired again, and Ichigo's Zanpakuto got broken only to be repaired again against Kenpachi (by itself)
    Last edited by Zehahaha; November 16, 2012 at 07:06 AM.

  10. #24
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Exodi's Avatar
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    Re: Broken bankais

    Quote Originally Posted by Zehahaha View Post
    Go reread manga and see how Renji's Bankai look like vs IlForte and Szayel, and even Yammy if I recall right, and look at his Bankai after it was completely shattered by Byakuya's Bankai, it was completely shattered, not just some part, but completely
    If it wasn't intact, we would've seen it, and if it lacked strength, no way Renji would have survived this long with a weak ass Bankai



    No, I'm talking about his fight vs Ishida where his Bankai was cut in half thanks to Ishida (and i'm even disregarding the self destruction thing), now Mayuri said that a broken bankai cannot be repaired, yet his Bankai was more than broken if you ask me, and yet it returned to its original state and all

    As for Zanpakuto in its sealed state/Shikai being broken, that's easy, we've seen not only Mayuri's Zanpakuto being broken and repaired, and even modified (notice the guard of his sword has changed), Renji's Zabimaru was repaired (by itself) when he was imprisoned back at SS arc, and vs Aizen too when it was destroyed by him at Sogyoku Hill. Ikkaku's Hozukimaru too got broken only to be repaired again, and Ichigo's Zanpakuto got broken only to be repaired again against Kenpachi (by itself)

    Well, I went and reread the entire manga, so here's my reply:

    Even Mayuri said himself that he didn't completely fix his bankai, he modified it.
    http://mangastream.com/read/bleach/27723931/6
    If his bankai doesn't look different, then the changes must be elsewhere.

    Let's look at the manga, and not the anime. In the manga, we don't actually get to see Renji use his bankai against Yammy.

    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...7-page-17.html
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...91-page-3.html

    So whether or not it looks the same or has the same strength is really up for debate.
    According to Mayuri, it probably doesn't have the same strength. I'm going to take his word for it.

    So how did he defeat Ylfordt? By being more powerful than Ylfordt.
    That simple.


    This is why I say it's not an asspull or a retcon. Kubo has taken what he's shown us and pieced it all together. And it all makes sense. To me, at least.

    edit*

    Funnily enough, looking back, everytime AFTER Renji's fight with Ylfordt, we never get to see his bankai fully activated.

    1. Szayel blew it up before Renji got the chance to use it
    2. We didn't see it against Yammy
    3. And now this arc, we probably won't be seeing it at all, considering the circumstances

    I think it's for the reasons I've provided, but also because the anime USED THE HELL out of Renji's bankai and Kubo got sick of it.
    LMAO
    Last edited by Exodi; November 16, 2012 at 09:26 AM.

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  12. #25
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Broken bankais

    Quote Originally Posted by Zehahaha View Post
    Oh come on kkck, we've seen Renji using his Bankai after his fight with Byakuya and it was completely intact and didn't lack in strength at all (heck even Kbo said that Renji's Bankai changed apparently), we've seen also Mayuri's Bankai cut in half and yet he managed to get it back to its original state

    This is clearly an ASSPULL no matter how much you put it, it's an asspull in order for Ichigo to use his Quincy powers, undergo whatever training again that's all
    Saying it is just an asspull is just too easy IMO. Even if we don't like the developments the stuff we generally see in the manga ultimately ends up fitting quite nicely in the manga. Kubo is far less prone to just asspulls than what he is given credit for. To this day people still say the yami being cero thing was an asspull for crying out loud....

    If we assume there is no asspull it is evident we have to take the mayuri bit as not written on stone. We know for a fact he has a grudge on ichigo, we know for a fact that seemingly broken bankais seem unbroken later on. Now, on the renji thing we don't know if it had the same amount of power it had against byakuya. There is an overwhelming difference between byakuya and a mere fraccion so we wouldn't be able to tell from those fights if hihio sabimaru got weaker. We have not seen ikkaku's bankai in a long time so we wouldn't know if there was a discernible difference in power from how it was and how it is. Mayuri is an insane genius so even if his bankai is maimed we wouldn't really know if it lost power if he has the actual ability to modify it and add or remove stuff to it. For now I would think that mayuri lied his ass off to get his petty revenge on ichigo and there is in fact a way to actually restore his bankai except that it is not actually available to renji and ikkaku, perhaps due to their relative weakness, and mayuri refrained to mention to ichigo. Perhaps the whole thing is simply a plot device for ichigo to develop his quincy abilities. Perhaps to fix his bankai he has to do some insanely dangerous inner world training. FGT, a simple technique, got him physically hurt and required 3 months; it wouldn't be strange if a more dangerous training and method was required for ichigo to fix the very manifestation of his soul. Then again, he could simply have orihime fix it although since reiatsu is a bit of an issue to her it would either take a long time or be impossible with her level of power(tres bestias seemed to think her power was exceptional enough for them to be completely ware of kirge absorbing it, perhaps she has grown strong enough to restore the full might of ichigo's bankai).

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  14. #26
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Saint Markus's Avatar
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    Re: Broken bankais

    Renji and Ikkaku's Bankai being damaged, doesn't make it unusable again in battle. That's all Mayuri was explaining to Ichigo, since Ichigo is still somewhat in the dark about spirit powers on all sides in general. And Mayuri clarified how his Zanpakuto is modified and made differently for him personally. Kommamura's Bankai is directly linked to him and it made sense, when Aizen cut him down, why his Bankai and body were both destroyed at the same time.

    Hitsugaya's Bankai is made of water (or ice) and technically it can only be evaporated or whatever, but water can always regain it's structure. The issue with Hitsugaya's Bankai is similar to Ichigo's, that it is not completed yet.

    Plus, even if Ichigo's bankai is broken, he's always going to be an exception versus the traditional rules regarding how spirit powers are established and work with Shinigami, Hollow, Fullbringer or even, Quincy, because he's a human and a combination of "all" these powers.

    Most likely, Ichigo's power will just evolve into something greater as it has already proven to do in past story arcs. I mean, did his powers not change with the Fullbringer additions, so imagine what happens with Quincy powers added.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Sanadan's Avatar
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    Re: Broken bankais

    Markus I like the thoughts about the Bankai of Toshiro. This was what I was contemplating regarding Mayuris Bankai. Having Bankai break and the being ruined poses a huge risk in writing when it comes to Mayuris bankai, where is the line drawn? Is it broken if some one cuts of one of those tiny creepy baby fingers? Breaking wings of Toshiro obviously doesn't mean this so the same could be true for Mayuri.
    Breaking only the core if what could "break" the bankai, with Ichigo for example, there is an extremely compact bankai, as Byakuya noted when he first saw it. It would then basically be an exposed core.

    There must be more then just simply doing damage to any part of the Bankai for it to break, if not then Byakuyas should have been broken a long time ago, those millions of peddles, ofc one of them have had to be broken at some time.

    I am saving my judgement for this issue until Kubo, probably in the next chapter explains this issue. He of all people should know the manga best and probably has something in the back of his mind.
    Could the Sage of Six Paths be named Sanada Yukimura?

  16. #28
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member River_Capulet's Avatar
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    Re: Broken bankais

    What if in Byakuya case, one has to break the blades as soon as they pop up from the ground (before the scatter) to break them? I thought of that because one can nullify his shikai release by warping the blades before it scatter.

  17. #29
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member NoOneInParticular's Avatar
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    Re: Broken bankais

    I quite like this idea, it adds a sense of urgency, if you know what I mean. It makes Bankais seem more precious, I guess.

    I wonder if there's a distinction between types of Bankai, though. We have those in which the actual sword becomes the Bankai, like Ichigo's, Renji's and Ikkaku's, and those where the Bankai manifests itself externally, like Mayuri's or Byakuya's. So I wonder if the problem is with snapping the actual zanpakuto's blade whilst Bankai is activated. When Tousen blasted Komamura's Bankai in the chest, it clearly left a mark, but when he summoned it against Aizen, it seemed fully intact. When Aizen cut through it, though, he also cut through Komamura's blade. So would the damage Kaname left be temporary, whilst what Aizen did be permanent (in anyone besides Komamura's case)? So if Mayuri's baby-thing is split in half, but his actual sword is undamaged, is that a problem, or is it if the actual Bankai is destroyed?

    Either way, Renji's case does seem to be a bit of an inconsitency. The whole thing was shattered by Byakuya. It could be that it's still made up of little pieces, and Renji's just holding it together with reiatsu, in the same way it's 'vertebrae' are connected.
    Last edited by NoOneInParticular; November 18, 2012 at 03:25 PM.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member eefrit's Avatar
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    Re: Broken bankais

    I somewhat agree with this revelation being a pull. There are just a couple of things that make it a inconsistency.

    When Ikkaku first went Bankai we saw Edoras conclude that Ryumon Hozukimaru lacks the durability to withstand it's own power. There is also the fact that the man must damage it for it to be used at full power. Knowing what we know now, Ikkaku's bankai would be substantially weaker after each use. That whole concept is counter-productive to Ikkaku's purpose for learning Bankai.

    Now look at Ichigo's bankai. His clothing is apart of his own Bankai, as explained by Ichigo himself, and it constantly takes damage. If we are going by Mayuri's explanation, Ichigo's clothing should not have been able to have been repaired as simply as it was.

    Komamura's "exception" makes it even more weird. So in all of these years and all of these captains, Komamura is the only shinigami to have such a close bond with his zanpakuto? What about the older shinigami? What about the CC?
    Last edited by eefrit; November 18, 2012 at 03:44 PM.

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