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Thread: Was things really necessary?

  1. #151
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member shahdan's Avatar
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    Re: Was things really necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    The answer doesn't work for me, though.
    I hope you are not expecting some sort of lengthy anecdote here? I told you what I believe.
    Last edited by shahdan; December 14, 2012 at 02:31 PM.

  2. #152
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    Re: was this really needed

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    nothing about the Uchiha clan has been affected by the introduction of the whole Rikudou Sennin plot.

    The whole fighting fate and suddenly learning you're destined to be better then everyone else thing really only applies to Naruto.
    From the very moment we knew about Rikudou's sons, common sense told us that the parallels of his sons were Sasuke and Naruto.
    It applies to Sasuke to most definetely.
    They have a fated meeting. 9tails was already given to Naruto.
    The Sharingan abilities have been somewhat prepared for Sasuke.

    It applied to Uchiha straight away with the eye story too.
    Last edited by Airgrimes; December 14, 2012 at 02:19 PM.

  3. #153
    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: Was things really necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by shahdan View Post
    I hope you are not expecting some sort of lengthy anecdote here? I told you what I believe.
    I still don't see how you can say Naruto wasn't in control. True, he got more ferocious, but he was still thinking on his own. Compare that Naruto to the Naruto that went four tails against Orochimaru and Deva. Four-Tail Naruto was completely out for blood, regardless of who it was. The shrouded Naruto wanted Haku's blood, but he stopped after Haku's mask fell off. If Naruto wasn't in control, his rage wouldn't be quenched, nor would he have stopped on his own. Like with battle at the Bridge or against Pain, Naruto would have needed a secondary source to stop his rampage.

  4. #154
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member shahdan's Avatar
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    Re: Was things really necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    I still don't see how you can say Naruto wasn't in control. True, he got more ferocious, but he was still thinking on his own. Compare that Naruto to the Naruto that went four tails against Orochimaru and Deva. Four-Tail Naruto was completely out for blood, regardless of who it was. The shrouded Naruto wanted Haku's blood, but he stopped after Haku's mask fell off. If Naruto wasn't in control, his rage wouldn't be quenched, nor would he have stopped on his own. Like with battle at the Bridge or against Pain, Naruto would have needed a secondary source to stop his rampage.
    What is your perspective on control? In my opinion, if he wasn't able to recall his transition, this doesn't translate into control as he was completely unaware of how he even broke free of Haku's technique. He didn't remember that he took on the snake against Orochimaru with his bare hands. My point is, one thing became an agent for his state, while his mind was not completely lost, it surely was not in his control either as the whole memory black outs suggest.

    With Hinata, he thought Pein had killed her or she was near death, hence there was no going back to the original state. With Haku, I am unsure why seeing his face quelled his rage, but I believe his appearance and their conversation in the forest played some role in this regard. Of course it's hypothetical of me. I hope this was a satisfactory explanation for my side of the argument. I can't do better than this, I'm afraid.

  5. #155
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    Re: Was things really necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    I don't recall that. I know the Hyuuga clan was praised as Konoha's strongest clan, but that was well after we had learnt about the Uchiha clan being wiped out. And we had the Uchiha clan praised throughout Part One, such as by Lee during the Chuunin Exam and up into the massacre flashback. Both were also referred to as one of Konoha's noble clans, though the treatment of the other two clans on that list makes it not mean all that much I suppose.

    Of course, I'm not discounting the fact that the Hyuuga clan clearly had superior taijutsu then the Uchiha clan. I believe their taijutsu strength was mentioned somewhere.
    See it like this:
    this is Part 1, you have the two clans, known for their talent and their Doujutsu:
    Uchihas had the better ninjutsu and genjutsu, while Hyuuga clearly had the best taijutsu.

    Now take the Sharingan, strip it of Izanagi, Izanami, Bijuu control, EMS and all the things introduced in part 2, and you have an eye with great foresight, capacity of see the current of chakra, capacity to copy common jutsus and capacity of visual genjutsu varying in power.

    Take the Byakugan, it sees way better than the Sharingan, its eyesight and reading of chakra flow can easily help a Hyuuga almost at the same level of an Uchiha in predicting movements, it can see at almost 360° for a long distance, and I'm pretty sure allows the Hyuuga to see through genjutsus easily, since they can see perfectly chakra pathways and chakra currents, and would thus recognize what is false and what is real, adding to the thing their incredible chakra control.

    You have Guy A with Sharingan and Guy B with Byakugan, both have similar abilities, strenght and intelligence.
    Guy B would likely beat Guy A because:
    -Guy A knows he can't go in taijutsu, because otherwise he would be dead
    -Guy A genjutsu is most likely useless
    -Guy A ninjutsu its his only weapon, but at the time Ninjutsu spammage heavily drained the user, and Hyuugas had Kaiten ( when he wouldn't simply dodge ), a defence even better than Gaara's sand, since it repels the attacks it receives.


    Itachi was an anomaly, in both sheer talent and Mangekyo, her mother herself says to Sasuke that he shouldn't try to surpass his brother, because he was not normal

  6. #156
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    Re: was this really needed

    Quote Originally Posted by Airgrimes View Post
    From the very moment we knew about Rikudou's sons, common sense told us that the parallels of his sons were Sasuke and Naruto.
    It applies to Sasuke to most definetely.
    They have a fated meeting. 9tails was already given to Naruto.
    The Sharingan abilities have been somewhat prepared for Sasuke.

    It applied to Uchiha straight away with the eye story too.
    Naruto and Sasuke were already set up to fight, with Sasuke being a hate filled avenger long before the Uchiha clan became the embodiment of it. And the OPness of the Sharingan and Uchiha clan was already well known before it was connected back to the Rikudou Sennin. And that's the point, that the Uchiha clan wasn't elevated by gaining a connection like the Senju and Uzumaki clans were.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    See it like this:
    this is Part 1, you have the two clans, known for their talent and their Doujutsu:
    Uchihas had the better ninjutsu and genjutsu, while Hyuuga clearly had the best taijutsu.

    Now take the Sharingan, strip it of Izanagi, Izanami, Bijuu control, EMS and all the things introduced in part 2, and you have an eye with great foresight, capacity of see the current of chakra, capacity to copy common jutsus and capacity of visual genjutsu varying in power.

    Take the Byakugan, it sees way better than the Sharingan, its eyesight and reading of chakra flow can easily help a Hyuuga almost at the same level of an Uchiha in predicting movements, it can see at almost 360° for a long distance, and I'm pretty sure allows the Hyuuga to see through genjutsus easily, since they can see perfectly chakra pathways and chakra currents, and would thus recognize what is false and what is real, adding to the thing their incredible chakra control.

    You have Guy A with Sharingan and Guy B with Byakugan, both have similar abilities, strenght and intelligence.
    Guy B would likely beat Guy A because:
    -Guy A knows he can't go in taijutsu, because otherwise he would be dead
    -Guy A genjutsu is most likely useless
    -Guy A ninjutsu its his only weapon, but at the time Ninjutsu spammage heavily drained the user, and Hyuugas had Kaiten ( when he wouldn't simply dodge ), a defence even better than Gaara's sand, since it repels the attacks it receives.


    Itachi was an anomaly, in both sheer talent and Mangekyo, her mother herself says to Sasuke that he shouldn't try to surpass his brother, because he was not normal
    But aside from Izanami and maybe Izanagi, all those abilities were already in play before the Rikudou Sennin revelation.

    As for your example, taijutsu wouldn't be out of the question, since only a few Hyuuga's can inject chakra. And since genjutsu manipulate the brain, it's just as possible that what they see is exactly what the user wants them to see. I mean, after all, even the Sharingan doesn't guarantee the ability to see through a genjutsu. As mentioned with taijutsu, only a tiny few Hyuuga would be capable of employing Kaiten, which was why Neji was considered a genius for learning it. And even if they could use it, it cost quite a bit of chakra to use, so they would be in a similar position. Also, you forgot weaponry, which most of the Uchiha we've seen seem to use pretty well.

  7. #157
    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: was this really needed

    Quote Originally Posted by shahdan View Post
    What is your perspective on control? In my opinion, if he wasn't able to recall his transition, this doesn't translate into control as he was completely unaware of how he even broke free of Haku's technique. He didn't remember that he took on the snake against Orochimaru with his bare hands. My point is, one thing became an agent for his state, while his mind was not completely lost, it surely was not in his control either as the whole memory black outs suggest.

    With Hinata, he thought Pein had killed her or she was near death, hence there was no going back to the original state. With Haku, I am unsure why seeing his face quelled his rage, but I believe his appearance and their conversation in the forest played some role in this regard. Of course it's hypothetical of me. I hope this was a satisfactory explanation for my side of the argument. I can't do better than this, I'm afraid.
    But he didn't know about the Kyuubi helping him at the time. All he knew was that the Kyuubi was in him, but Naruto never knew that it'd help him as well.

    I guess so - Naruto knew Haku and was calmed down because he didn't want to hurt him.

  8. #158
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    Re: was this really needed

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    But aside from Izanami and maybe Izanagi, all those abilities were already in play before the Rikudou Sennin revelation.

    As for your example, taijutsu wouldn't be out of the question, since only a few Hyuuga's can inject chakra. And since genjutsu manipulate the brain, it's just as possible that what they see is exactly what the user wants them to see. I mean, after all, even the Sharingan doesn't guarantee the ability to see through a genjutsu. As mentioned with taijutsu, only a tiny few Hyuuga would be capable of employing Kaiten, which was why Neji was considered a genius for learning it. And even if they could use it, it cost quite a bit of chakra to use, so they would be in a similar position. Also, you forgot weaponry, which most of the Uchiha we've seen seem to use pretty well.
    We don't know that, EMS and everything else was introduced during the Itachi fight, right before Obito did the whole explanation about Rikudou Sennin.

    Also Juuken can be done by every Hyuuga, you are confusing it with the ability to close Tenketsus, which is pretty rare.
    Juuken works by immitting the Hyuuga's chakra into the enemy system, destroying it from the inside. Tenketsu opening/closing allows the Hyuuga to reduce of completely halt the flow of chakra by closing the chakra's pathways.

    As for Genjutsu, for it to work the Uchiha would need to know how the Byakugan works to effectively fool it, and considering the Byakugan's insight is superior, as well as being able to see at 360°, I find pretty difficult for it to work, considering also that they can alter their own chakra pretty easily, thanks to their style of fighting.

    Kaiten was never said to consume a fair bit of chakra ( Neji employed it just to stop some shurikens ), and its teached for all the main branch of Hyuugas, meaning at least half the clan, when properly matured, should be able to use it.
    Even without that, their hands are covered with chakra, meaning they can either deflect it or block it entirely.
    Or just employ Vacuum Palm

  9. #159
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    Re: was this really needed

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    We don't know that, EMS and everything else was introduced during the Itachi fight, right before Obito did the whole explanation about Rikudou Sennin.
    Still, introduced beforehand. Point is the Uchiha clan and most of their abilities were already estabished before the Sages storyline was brought in. They weren't like the Senju and Uzumaki, granted a bunch of previously unknown abilities to fit in.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    Also Juuken can be done by every Hyuuga, you are confusing it with the ability to close Tenketsus, which is pretty rare.
    Juuken works by immitting the Hyuuga's chakra into the enemy system, destroying it from the inside. Tenketsu opening/closing allows the Hyuuga to reduce of completely halt the flow of chakra by closing the chakra's pathways.
    Right, my mistake. Nevertheless, for taijutsu they would still need a greater speed, else there would be no way for them to land a hit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    As for Genjutsu, for it to work the Uchiha would need to know how the Byakugan works to effectively fool it, and considering the Byakugan's insight is superior, as well as being able to see at 360°, I find pretty difficult for it to work, considering also that they can alter their own chakra pretty easily, thanks to their style of fighting.
    I don't think they would, given all that we've seen about genjutsu. By that logic, for a regular person to catch a Sharingan user, they would also have to know how it works. Anyway, genjutsu affects the brain, meaning that it's the mind they have to worry about, not the eyes. Just as a genjutsu can be used to force the mind to tell the target's body to not move, it can probably be used to tell the mind what to see. And the Byakugan's ability to see around and at a distance varies between members.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    Kaiten was never said to consume a fair bit of chakra ( Neji employed it just to stop some shurikens ), and its teached for all the main branch of Hyuugas, meaning at least half the clan, when properly matured, should be able to use it.
    Even without that, their hands are covered with chakra, meaning they can either deflect it or block it entirely.
    Or just employ Vacuum Palm
    It was said to release a large amount of chakra in order to make use of. That would imply that the number of times it can be used is limited. And it was said to be passed down to the heirs of the clan. I wouldn't underestimate their weaponry abilities, given how both Itachi and Sasuke displayed different tricks beyond just straight throwing. Even if they get deflected, it would still benefit the Uchiha more costwise.

  10. #160
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    Re: was this really needed

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    Still, introduced beforehand. Point is the Uchiha clan and most of their abilities were already estabished before the Sages storyline was brought in. They weren't like the Senju and Uzumaki, granted a bunch of previously unknown abilities to fit in.
    True enough

    Quote Quote:
    Right, my mistake. Nevertheless, for taijutsu they would still need a greater speed, else there would be no way for them to land a hit.
    Naruto, without enhancing abilities nor superior speed, could still keep up with Sasuke, both on the roof of the hospital and at the beginning of the VOTE fight.
    Sure he was hit a bit, but wasn't helpless despite the obvious difference in speed.
    Considering also Juuken can deal damage even without completely hitting the opponent ( all it takes is a little touch ) I don't doubt a Hyuuga would best an Uchiha

    Quote Quote:
    I don't think they would, given all that we've seen about genjutsu. By that logic, for a regular person to catch a Sharingan user, they would also have to know how it works. Anyway, genjutsu affects the brain, meaning that it's the mind they have to worry about, not the eyes. Just as a genjutsu can be used to force the mind to tell the target's body to not move, it can probably be used to tell the mind what to see. And the Byakugan's ability to see around and at a distance varies between members.
    Sight is influenced by the brain, you can't tell a person what to see if you don't know how he see things.
    I can concede paralyzing genjutsus would be a different story.
    Keep in mind though that Hyuuga have incredible chakra control

    Quote Quote:
    It was said to release a large amount of chakra in order to make use of. That would imply that the number of times it can be used is limited. And it was said to be passed down to the heirs of the clan. I wouldn't underestimate their weaponry abilities, given how both Itachi and Sasuke displayed different tricks beyond just straight throwing. Even if they get deflected, it would still benefit the Uchiha more costwise.
    Gotta find an official translation, I remember it was the main branch, not the main house.
    As for Kaiten's chakra consumption, I remember Hiashi doing a giant Kaiten without even breaking a sweat, and if Kaiten consumed a lot of chakra I wouldn't see Neji using it for stopping shurikens, a feat he could've done calmly in 183048 other ways

    On weaponry, Itachi and Sasuke are anomalies, they are gifted even for Uchihas, so imo is pretty unfair to use them as examples, expecially since the Hyuugas didn't receive even a tenth of the Uchihas development.
    The best I can concede is the C rank jutsu Sasuke used to bind Orochimaru in the forest, but Hyuugas can expel chakra from their bodies, so it would be kinda useless imo

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    Re: was this really needed

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    How does that apply to the Sharingan, which was established as belonging to a well-noted clan in the beginning? Aside from the Rinnegan being added as another possible evolution, nothing about the Uchiha clan has been affected by the introduction of the whole Rikudou Sennin plot.

    The whole fighting fate and suddenly learning you're destined to be better then everyone else thing really only applies to Naruto.
    "Well-noted" evolved slowly but surely into the "greatest clan ever next to the Senju". They were originally described as having evolved from the Byakugan. The Byakugan should have been descendent from the Rinnegan. I can't believe I have to have this conversation. They went from being 'badass clan' to 'if these people rebel, the whole ninja world could crumble because of a chain reaction in political power'. This is ridiculous.

  12. #162
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    Re: was this really needed

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    Naruto, without enhancing abilities nor superior speed, could still keep up with Sasuke, both on the roof of the hospital and at the beginning of the VOTE fight.
    Sure he was hit a bit, but wasn't helpless despite the obvious difference in speed.
    Considering also Juuken can deal damage even without completely hitting the opponent ( all it takes is a little touch ) I don't doubt a Hyuuga would best an Uchiha
    Kept up? I think that's being a little generous. On the roof, Naruto overwhelm him with clones where Sasuke still maintained the advantage, and their final crash involved Sasuke pummeling downward from midair. At VotE, Naruto's first attack was Kyuubi powered and after that he wasn't able to keep up til once again powered by the Kyuubi. Not that it matters, because a three tomoe user has shown capable of handling anyone their speed or slightly over.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    Sight is influenced by the brain, you can't tell a person what to see if you don't know how he see things.
    I can concede paralyzing genjutsus would be a different story.
    Keep in mind though that Hyuuga have incredible chakra control
    Aside from the Sharingan being capable of seeing memories and none of the two visions of the Byakugan being different from the other doujutsus, not sure why knowing their sight would be required to merely tell their eyes not to see. You can't presume they all have such control, given the series has made it clear that such control is rare.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    Gotta find an official translation, I remember it was the main branch, not the main house.
    As for Kaiten's chakra consumption, I remember Hiashi doing a giant Kaiten without even breaking a sweat, and if Kaiten consumed a lot of chakra I wouldn't see Neji using it for stopping shurikens, a feat he could've done calmly in 183048 other ways

    On weaponry, Itachi and Sasuke are anomalies, they are gifted even for Uchihas, so imo is pretty unfair to use them as examples, expecially since the Hyuugas didn't receive even a tenth of the Uchihas development.
    The best I can concede is the C rank jutsu Sasuke used to bind Orochimaru in the forest, but Hyuugas can expel chakra from their bodies, so it would be kinda useless imo
    Main Branch wouldn't make much sense, since that would increase the odds of it being revealed to others. It being passed heir to heir means that at any single time, only two people would have knowledge of it. Hiashi using it once wouldn't take away from it being costly, and Neji was tired after a handful of uses.

    Anomalies? Madara and Obito have also shown skills at using weaponry. Seems more like their standard then an anomaly. What about the shadow shuriken, the tricks used against Deidara, or the whole display during the brother's fight? Not all hyuuga's are capable of that. Neji had to master the Gentle Fist style in order to be capable of that.

    Quote Originally Posted by badluckartist View Post
    "Well-noted" evolved slowly but surely into the "greatest clan ever next to the Senju". They were originally described as having evolved from the Byakugan. The Byakugan should have been descendent from the Rinnegan. I can't believe I have to have this conversation. They went from being 'badass clan' to 'if these people rebel, the whole ninja world could crumble because of a chain reaction in political power'. This is ridiculous.
    That claim was always a rumor, even when it was originally said. And how is it ridiculous that the Land of Fire would be ruined,which was what all was said? A large clan noted for their battle skill, who is also in charge of the village's police force and thus would obviously have major intel on the workings of the village, starting a civil war that would clearly temp the other villages into attacking given their well shown desire for it's strengths wouldn't destroy the nation? Even though both Kumo and Iwa was stated to have been gathering power for eventual war and both have grudges against Konoha? Even though most of Konoha's strongest ninjas were dead or gone from the village at that point in time? I fail to see how that's overblown.

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    Re: was this really needed

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    But he didn't know about the Kyuubi helping him at the time. All he knew was that the Kyuubi was in him, but Naruto never knew that it'd help him as well.

    I guess so - Naruto knew Haku and was calmed down because he didn't want to hurt him.
    Naruto didn't know Kyuubi was inside of him until Jiriya pushed him into the gorge. These incidents - Haku and Orochimaru at the chunin exams - happened before it.

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    Re: Was things really necessary?

    He knew Kyuubi was inside him, or at least he was in some way associated with the Kyuubi. Naruto has said he knew about the other chakra but couldn't tell what it was from, or something. Either way, Naruto was in control, or in control enough to stop when he had to.

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    Re: was this really needed

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    Kept up? I think that's being a little generous. On the roof, Naruto overwhelm him with clones where Sasuke still maintained the advantage, and their final crash involved Sasuke pummeling downward from midair. At VotE, Naruto's first attack was Kyuubi powered and after that he wasn't able to keep up til once again powered by the Kyuubi. Not that it matters, because a three tomoe user has shown capable of handling anyone their speed or slightly over.
    After Sasuke's surprise attack, they hit each other once, and then there was no clear winner.
    After that is the clash between Chidori and Rasengan, meaning Naruto and Sasuke were equals.
    And Naruto didn't have the same speed of Sasuke, nor he had 2 tomoe's precog. He kept up, at the best of his abilities

    Quote Quote:
    Aside from the Sharingan being capable of seeing memories and none of the two visions of the Byakugan being different from the other doujutsus, not sure why knowing their sight would be required to merely tell their eyes not to see. You can't presume they all have such control, given the series has made it clear that such control is rare.
    Byakugan sees way better than the Sharingan, its the only thing it has

    Quote Quote:
    Main Branch wouldn't make much sense, since that would increase the odds of it being revealed to others. It being passed heir to heir means that at any single time, only two people would have knowledge of it. Hiashi using it once wouldn't take away from it being costly, and Neji was tired after a handful of uses.
    When Neji was tired after 2 Kaitens?
    Against both Naruto and Kidomaru he uses Kaiten effortlessy. He was tired/damage because he got hit by Naruto's Kyuubi chakra

    Quote Quote:
    Anomalies? Madara and Obito have also shown skills at using weaponry. Seems more like their standard then an anomaly. What about the shadow shuriken, the tricks used against Deidara, or the whole display during the brother's fight? Not all hyuuga's are capable of that. Neji had to master the Gentle Fist style in order to be capable of that.
    Not really disproving my point, since Madara is the strongest Uchiha to date and Obito was his apprentice, even though Obito didn't show mastery of weapons, he only used a giant shuriken, what Mizuki did in chap 1

    As for the Kage Shuriken or everything else, I don't buy them being able to fool a Byakugan, and even if they did, it isn't that difficult to knock out or dodge, like Zabuza and Itachi showed.
    The latter was hit both for his bad reflexes and because Sasuke wired the giant Shuriken

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