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Thread: Was things really necessary?

  1. #31
    Registered User 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member
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    Re: Was things really necessary?

    Actually the fight with Shukaku did not bother me much as Bunta stated that he could not fight him long enough. So atleast Bunta was powered out quite fast. It'd be even okay if the Bijuu were this strong like they are currently but maybe a bit weaker - but there should be other limitations:
    1) The Mass of Chakra the Jinchuuriki that is in sync with his Bijuu can use is limited like it is when he's not in sync. The body simply can't take this mass of chakra, thats why the seal is there. So the power of a Jinchuuriki is limited by his own Chakra capacity simply like sage mode.

    2) Only VERY few Ninja should be able to fight Bijuuu toe to toe. Hidan and Kakazu could do it because they were more or less immortal, Kisame just had an incredible Chakra and Samehada, Itachi had his Sharigan, Sasori could pull the strings from somewhere else and Deidara could also attack from a distance. Nagato doesn't need a mention. So acutally the Akatski was done well. Other ninjas should be forced to rely on strong sealing techniques, barriers etc.
    One could also use summons to fight Bijuu some time - but i don't like the concept that everyone lately seems to be able to fight toe to toe with a bijuu.

    As for Susanoo i think that it would've been to good idea to split the abilities in differenz Susanoos up like one's good at attacking, the other is good at defending.
    Itachi for example would be a big Defence shield with the bonus ability to seal someone. Sasuke would be the attacking type and would've still needed to be very fast in order to dodge the enemys attacks.

  2. #32
    MH Senpai 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Uchiha_Blood's Avatar
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    Re: Was things really necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by shahdan View Post
    Look at current Naruto's abilities and now compare them to Sasuke's without sussano. This isn't an excuse at all, but a plausible outcome of this 'tailed beasts' power ups that just continue to baffle me. It's because of these beasts that the manga has moved so far away from its original course. Whether you agree with me or not is not an issue for me, but I would still stick to my opinion as this whole Jinchurki notion was nothing but ridiculous from the start.

    Look at one-tail's fight with Naruto and the toad summon. They almost leveled a whole forest. Now how would the other side counter this without an ability that was exceptionally powerful? Also, Hashirama was considered a thing of the fairy-tails from the start as far as powers go. That man was never a ninja to begin with, but a Goku from DBZ without the blond super saiyen mode.
    I disagree, mostly because these beasts aren't invincible, and now Madara and Obito are controlling the most powerful entity with just a... Root thingy connected to their brain

    Naruto without Kyuubi and Sasuke without Susano'o would be a close battle, very close since they are roughly on the same level imo, thus if Sasuke could turn off Kyuubi he could be able to match Naruto just fine while having a great shot at winning, since its not like he's a noob without Susano'o.

    They would counter it like Hashirama, Kushina and Madara did:
    suppressing the Bijuu or genjutsuing it.
    Both descends from a guy that defeated the Juubi, so them having an unfair advantage over them is logical. As such, it would force Kishimoto to let Naruto grow outside the Kyuubi, which would be good.

    A fight between Naruto and Sasuke without Kyuubi and Susano'o is my secret dream for their final battle, alas it will never come into fruition

  3. #33
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Hakuteiken's Avatar
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    Re: Was things really necessary?

    Only bothersome thing about Sharingan is the evolution process to Rinnegan, but that isn't something achievable without possessing Senju DNA, so, it's not a natural Sharingan ability, to begin with.
    If all Sharingan users actually had access to awakening the Rinnegan, then things would really get out of hand.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lighty View Post
    2) Only VERY few Ninja should be able to fight Bijuuu toe to toe. Hidan and Kakazu could do it because they were more or less immortal, Kisame just had an incredible Chakra and Samehada, Itachi had his Sharigan, Sasori could pull the strings from somewhere else and Deidara could also attack from a distance. Nagato doesn't need a mention. So acutally the Akatski was done well. Other ninjas should be forced to rely on strong sealing techniques, barriers etc.
    One could also use summons to fight Bijuu some time - but i don't like the concept that everyone lately seems to be able to fight toe to toe with a bijuu.
    As far as fighting a Bijuu on your own goes (the Bijuu, not a Jinchuuriki using Bijuu transformation), Sandaime Raikage was stated in manga to be the only Shinobi ever that was capable of such a feat and I get where this statement is coming from. As far as Hidan's immortality would keep him alive, he would get torn to pieces against a Bijuu, five hearts wouldn't make the cut for Kisame and so on.
    Of course, by using a powerful genjutsu like Madara, you can control the Bijuu or you can control it the way Hashirama did, but if we are talking about actual combat, you need an unreal durability.
    And Hachibi didn't even put a scratch on Sandaime Raikage's body. That's an entirely different level of body strength.

  4. #34
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Franckie's Avatar
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    Re: Was things really necessary?

    The chief problem with the Sharingan is how Kishimoto keeps on retconning the Sharingan's "true power". Initially copying was its "true power" until Itachi showed up with the MS; the MS was then the "true power" until Tobi/Madara showed up with the EMS; and then the EMS was retconned with the Rinnegan being the final evolution of the Sharingan. With the Juubi, the Sharingan could evolve into something even beyond the power of the Rinnegan. Altogether that's five showings of the Sharingan's "true power".

    A lot of this has to deal with the fact that Kishimoto didn't have the entirety of the story fleshed out at the beginning (Itachi showed up only after a few years the manga started). Now this tendency is nigh-universal in the manga industry, but as Part II shows, Kishimoto has made some major changes to the storyline...again...despite 15 years of serialization. The constant retconning of the Sharingan is the result of poor planning.

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  6. #35
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted ninjabot's Avatar
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    Re: Was things really necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by Franckie
    The chief problem with the Sharingan is how Kishimoto keeps on retconning the Sharingan's "true power". Initially copying was its "true power" until Itachi showed up with the MS; the MS was then the "true power" until Tobi/Madara showed up with the EMS; and then the EMS was retconned with the Rinnegan being the final evolution of the Sharingan. With the Juubi, the Sharingan could evolve into something even beyond the power of the Rinnegan. Altogether that's five showings of the Sharingan's "true power".
    I don't remember the exact point in the manga where it was stated explicitly that the true power of the Sharingan was it's ability to copy jutsu. I remember it being stated that it was one of it's abilities.

  7. #36
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    Re: Was things really necessary?

    ^ Considering the meaning of the word Sharingan is "copying-wheel eye", and it was famous in part 1 because it could copy every jutsu, one can assume it was the Sharingan's strongest point

  8. #37
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member shahdan's Avatar
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    Re: Was things really necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    I disagree, mostly because these beasts aren't invincible, and now Madara and Obito are controlling the most powerful entity with just a... Root thingy connected to their brain

    Naruto without Kyuubi and Sasuke without Susano'o would be a close battle, very close since they are roughly on the same level imo, thus if Sasuke could turn off Kyuubi he could be able to match Naruto just fine while having a great shot at winning, since its not like he's a noob without Susano'o.

    They would counter it like Hashirama, Kushina and Madara did:
    suppressing the Bijuu or genjutsuing it.
    Both descends from a guy that defeated the Juubi, so them having an unfair advantage over them is logical. As such, it would force Kishimoto to let Naruto grow outside the Kyuubi, which would be good.

    A fight between Naruto and Sasuke without Kyuubi and Susano'o is my secret dream for their final battle, alas it will never come into fruition
    That is also a valid point, but aside of control, it's still a mountain-lever 1 Versus another mountain-leveler fight. Can't believe how far Naruto has strayed from its Ninja roots.

    I myself yearn to see a Sussano-less and Kyuubi-less fight. This whole tailed beasts business has spiraled out of control for me at least.

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  10. #38
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Hakuteiken's Avatar
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    Re: Was things really necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by shahdan View Post
    That is also a valid point, but aside of control, it's still a mountain-lever 1 Versus another mountain-leveler fight. Can't believe how far Naruto has strayed from its Ninja roots.

    I myself yearn to see a Sussano-less and Kyuubi-less fight. This whole tailed beasts business has spiraled out of control for me at least.
    I'd say, even without Kyuubi, Naruto would have the upper hand. He still has monstrous chakra reserves and Sasuke without Susano'o will not possess a great defense to counter his attacks. He'd be forced to rely more and more on his ocular power.
    That said, it's like having a 5% more chance of winning at most. Not a dramatic difference it would make.

    I'd rather have a battle of Naruto without Kyuubi and Sasuke without EMS. Susano'o is Sasuke's own power, while EMS is the result of getting Itachi's eyes. So, taking Sasuke's Susano'o out of context is more like taking Rasen Shuriken away from Naruto.
    If Kyuubi and EMS are left out, they are on their own. Only their techniques would count and they would have to rely on their power, not Kyuubi's, or as in Sasuke's case, Itachi's.
    This way, we would get to see who is better as an old school Shinobi.

  11. #39
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Sanadan's Avatar
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    Re: Was things really necessary?

    You know what I miss? Hand seals. How often are they used now? I loved how they were explained in the "Naruto Bridge" arc. At most now I seem to get two fingers pointing towards the spot in between the shinobis eye brows before epic jutsus are used.
    Meh

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  13. #40
    SCHWING LORD 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member 3c's Avatar
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    Re: Was things really necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by Franckie View Post
    The chief problem with the Sharingan is how Kishimoto keeps on retconning the Sharingan's "true power". Initially copying was its "true power" until Itachi showed up with the MS; the MS was then the "true power" until Tobi/Madara showed up with the EMS; and then the EMS was retconned with the Rinnegan being the final evolution of the Sharingan. With the Juubi, the Sharingan could evolve into something even beyond the power of the Rinnegan. Altogether that's five showings of the Sharingan's "true power".

    A lot of this has to deal with the fact that Kishimoto didn't have the entirety of the story fleshed out at the beginning (Itachi showed up only after a few years the manga started). Now this tendency is nigh-universal in the manga industry, but as Part II shows, Kishimoto has made some major changes to the storyline...again...despite 15 years of serialization. The constant retconning of the Sharingan is the result of poor planning.
    I seriously doubt the three-tomoe was the "true power" of the Sharingan. If it was ever stated flat out I'd have to check the context it was stated in, possibly even the raw version.

    However I will believe MS was likely its ultimate power, one could even go as far as to say that a Susano'o'less MS was the ultimate power of the Sharingan (ultimate ninjutsu and genjutsu). Itachi came into the manga fairly early on, I seriously doubt Kishi didn't even have it planned that far ahead. I never got the feeling things were poorly planned until part 2. What's however true is that Itachi's MS design was never showed until the end of part 1 despite being talked about and used previously, however it's a pointless point of argument. All in all MS could easily be seen as an anomaly in the Sharingan, a freak chance of evolution that only the greatest geniuses would achieve.

    However the rest ties into the Senju vs Uchiha and Rikudou Sennin plot that I mentioned in my previous post. Once those plots increased their importance, MS could suddenly evolve even farther, first to EMS, and then to Rinnegan (and who knows what with Juubi's freaky eye casting a giant foreshadowing). The Rinnegan in itself could have stood alone as a freak mutation, a legend. I found that aspect far more intriguing than a messy yet-another upgrade, Super Saiyan style for the Sharingan. I've also been vocal about how Kishi has treated Nagato, and utterly trashed his character with confirmation about all his power being borrowed. Nagato could have stood alone, but my making everything "tie together" needlessly, Kishi has ruined the ocular powers in NARUTO.

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  15. #41
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Brill's Avatar
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    Re: Was things really necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by 3c View Post
    I think, to find the root of the problem, we have to look at the Senju vs Uchiha plot. Once this previous sub-plot increased its importance, everything started running out of hand. NARUTO was a story that was once about a ninja world with monstrous exceptions in Jinchuuriki (and Bijuu). It should have remained this way. Saying that Kishi made Jinchuuriki too powerful isn't entirely true as Kishi had the concept of a Jinchuuriki's powers mapped out from an early stage and gave us a progressive build up for it, from 0KN to 1KN, 3KN and 4KN. This brings up the whole point about Akatsuki, and the reason for its once unique existence. It was a group of special people that possessed abilities few others had, the ability to successfully fight Jinchuuriki. The problem is that these people lost their unique standing when more and more people appeared at, or above their average level.
    If it had remained that way then there would be no way to complete the story. If Naruto had remained a genin who could only throw kunai and create Shadow clones, he could never defeat a bijuu. That is the final goal created with the introduction of the 9-tails. Throwing kunai may work on humans, however, it doesn't do jack against Godzilla which is what the bijuu were envisoined as. So Naruto has to evolve into something that can compete with a bijuu, and since Sasuke is his main rival, he too, has to evolve.

    Quote Quote:
    Focusing at the Sharingan a bit, I don't think many have major issues with the Sharingan's original Mangekyou abilities (Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu). The issues lie in Susano'o and later introduced completely hax powers that pop up out of nowhere with no explanation. Shisui's "brainwash no jutsu" and Obito's insane S/T techniques are completely overpowered in this world, while thankfully Shisui's technique has a ridiculous and convenient cooldown because nature decided it was "too hax". However Obito's technique is a good example of Kishi letting his imagination and the concept of power in NARUTO go wild. You need such a unique set of abilities to deal with him 1v1 that other powers had to follow up (or the other way around).

    Going back to Susano'o, it's simply a broken technique that doesn't really fit in the narutoverse to begin with, it's just a ridiculous ability. Two eyes gives you the automatic ability to form a gigantic chakra mecha that is uber powerful. I've always said that my opinion about Susano'o is that it destroyed the affected Uchiha. Itachi using it was legendary and cool, but it should have been a one time thing and unique for Itachi (which would have gone hand in hand with his shield and sword being unique). The fact is that Susano'o has utterly ruined Sasuke to the point where he relies on it in almost any situation simply because it's convenient. Excessive use no longer seems to be an issue, and it's just so damn useful that he'd rather form it in the millisecond it takes to form the gigantic chakra mecha (the speed in itself which is ridiculous already, It's basically an on/off switch and it's there/gone), than use his already superb speed to dodge attacks or use less consuming techniques to deal with a situation (providing variety in a fight). Heck, even Edo Itachi suddenly used it a lot. Susano'o basically destroys everything that defines a good ninja. The user becomes a stationary mecha pilot. There's a reason the vast majority says that Sasuke in the Deidara fight was what he should be like, snakes or not. Sasuke back then was my favorite character in Naruto. Yes I admit to this in public!
    Remember what the end game is, fighting chakra monsters. Everyone's ok with tsukioyomi and ameratsu because we can can "visualize" using your eyes to hypnotize someone or seeing laser beams pop out of your eyes which is what ameratsu essentially is. The problem is that ameratsu has some severe limitations imbedded with it so you can't spam-fire a bijuu into submission with it. You needed to give the Sharingan a physical component that could engage the entity, that was Susano. It's not a far leap really. Summoning was established in Part 1 so summoning spiritual armor isn't that much of a stretch. People just feel it doesn't belong in the sharingan dojutsu bag of parlor tricks. It's aesthetics, but it's doable in a fantasy story.

    Quote Quote:
    Really, it's easy to focus mainly on the Sharingan because Susano'o and Obito's (and Kakashi's borrowed) abilities are so overpowered that they make for a great argument. What's easy is to put the blame on the Sharingan, but the truth is that the Sharingan simply adapted to the world Kishi designed. The Jinchuuriki and power of Bijuu were already solidified in part 1. It was a progressive build up so no one can say it came out of nowhere. What Kishi screwed up with, was letting so many character's powers grow out of control. If you think about it, it's understandable. From Kishi's POV it's quite boring not challenging your own imagination for so long. You always wish to "do better", and in this case Kishi tried to think everytime he made a new character and its design "how can I make this character appear unique and cool? What unseen amazing fighting style and ability can I introduce to make my fans amazed?" It's an understandable logic, but unfortunately less is sometimes more.

    A small solution to the issues that concern the concept of power in NARUTO would be in another ability for the Sharingan to replace Susano'o for Sasuke, mainly because Sasuke has such excessive spotlight. Like I mentioned, Susano'o took away too much excitement in a fight by making its user stationary and heavily reliable on the technique. It was a bad technique design that turned out being fatal, as to fix the issue Kishi would have to introduce another technique out of nowhere to make Susano'o unuseful, which in itself would have likely been an even more broken technique, like Obito's technique.
    The Sharingan wasn't adapted to the world Kishi designed, it was the vehicle through which Sasuke could compete with the most powerful entities in the world, the bijuu. Naruto is a power-based story. Knowledge is fine in spots, but power is what gets things done in this world. Imagine you're a 14 year-old and facing off with Godzilla. Snowball's chance in hell of winning that fight. Now envision yourself as a 17-year old against Godzilla. Odds are just as bad. Now envision yourself as a 17-year old inside a Death Star going after Godzilla. Odds are in your favor. Why? Because of power. Sasuke's power levels rise only through application of his sharingan, nothing else. But if he hadn't done this course then the powers he acquired wouldn't be his own, they be borrowed and every ninja would be spamming it. Naruto hopped around. First it was new jutsu. Then it was sage mode. Then a fusion of the two, Kyuubi mode. All-given, and not really earned except for the first one. That's what has people chomping at the bit, they want these power-ups to be earned like it was for all their opponents. But that would proceed past the timeline that is planned for this story. For it to be earned and believable, Naruto and Sasuke would be adults in their mid-30's to pull of a fight that is occuring in the manga presently. Kishi didn't want it to go that long so Sasuke and Naruto got their "power-ups" through the mediums listed.



    Quote Quote:
    But in the end, the main issue doesn't lie in Uzumaki Naruto or Uchiha Sasuke. The main issue lies in other characters like the Raikage being too fast to handle without a convenient speed boost or superb defense to make up for lack of speed. Kishi's problem is that he didn't keep the uniqueness in his universe. Akatsuki is no longer unique, it's just a bunch of strong guys. There's a ton of other characters that can fight a Jinchuuriki of average level. Minato's speed is no longer unique, Raikage is about as fast and now Naruto too. Saving the best for last, a Bijuu's power is no longer unique, all one needs is Superman Madara and his gigantic chakra mecha (seriously who knows where he would get the necessary chakra from in a mortal form). Why on earth did he need the power comparable to a Bijuu if he already had the eyes to control them? How on earth did Hashirama deal with such a mecha? Did he have a wood mecha?
    But that argument is based upon a preconception, and a false one at that. Just because Minato was a fast ninja doesn't exclude there being other fast ninja as well. For 85% of the story we were only exposed to the capabilites of one nation plus Gaara's family. Why would you expect the people of other lands not to have people with similar proficiencies and abilites? Because Kishi hadn't introduced them yet? We've been provided with the point of view and abilites of only one nation for this series, but they aren't the only player in town.

  16. #42
    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: Was things really necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by 3c View Post
    I seriously doubt the three-tomoe was the "true power" of the Sharingan. If it was ever stated flat out I'd have to check the context it was stated in, possibly even the raw version.

    However I will believe MS was likely its ultimate power, one could even go as far as to say that a Susano'o'less MS was the ultimate power of the Sharingan (ultimate ninjutsu and genjutsu). Itachi came into the manga fairly early on, I seriously doubt Kishi didn't even have it planned that far ahead. I never got the feeling things were poorly planned until part 2. What's however true is that Itachi's MS design was never showed until the end of part 1 despite being talked about and used previously, however it's a pointless point of argument. All in all MS could easily be seen as an anomaly in the Sharingan, a freak chance of evolution that only the greatest geniuses would achieve.

    However the rest ties into the Senju vs Uchiha and Rikudou Sennin plot that I mentioned in my previous post. Once those plots increased their importance, MS could suddenly evolve even farther, first to EMS, and then to Rinnegan (and who knows what with Juubi's freaky eye casting a giant foreshadowing). The Rinnegan in itself could have stood alone as a freak mutation, a legend. I found that aspect far more intriguing than a messy yet-another upgrade, Super Saiyan style for the Sharingan. I've also been vocal about how Kishi has treated Nagato, and utterly trashed his character with confirmation about all his power being borrowed. Nagato could have stood alone, but my making everything "tie together" needlessly, Kishi has ruined the ocular powers in NARUTO.
    Actually though, Rinnegan isn't an actual upgrade or easy evolution like people think. Only Madara was known to achieve Rinnegan from Sharingan, and only because of Hashirama's cells and near the end of his life. It apparently takes a lot to unlock Rinnegan, and even then you don't have a high chance of getting it successfully. Who's to say that Sasuke will unlock Rinnegan when it took even Madara decades to do so?
    I get the feeling people think Rinnegan is an automatic unlock when like everything Sharingan, it requires prerequisites and even then, there's a low chance of unlocking it immediately, apparently.

    But yeah, Kishi has ruined ocular powers. He gave too much power to Sharingan lineage and didn't focus on Byakugan.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    I'd say, even without Kyuubi, Naruto would have the upper hand. He still has monstrous chakra reserves and Sasuke without Susano'o will not possess a great defense to counter his attacks. He'd be forced to rely more and more on his ocular power.
    That said, it's like having a 5% more chance of winning at most. Not a dramatic difference it would make.
    I disagree. Naruto doesn't have Minato or Raikage level speed that can allow him to attack Sasuke before he can react. Sharingan is Sasuke's best defense against most attacks like FRS or most taijutsu attacks Naruto uses. He was even able to take out most of Naruto's clones when they fought on top of the hospital with just his Sharingan. At the Valley of the End, I think Sasuke had the upperhand until Naruto used the Kyuubi's chakra, then they were evenly matched when Sasuke went CS2. I could be remembering wrong though, especially since Naruto didn't use more power until the rasengan and chidori clash.

    Quote Quote:
    I'd rather have a battle of Naruto without Kyuubi and Sasuke without EMS. Susano'o is Sasuke's own power, while EMS is the result of getting Itachi's eyes. So, taking Sasuke's Susano'o out of context is more like taking Rasen Shuriken away from Naruto.
    If Kyuubi and EMS are left out, they are on their own. Only their techniques would count and they would have to rely on their power, not Kyuubi's, or as in Sasuke's case, Itachi's.
    This way, we would get to see who is better as an old school Shinobi.
    Only thing Itachi's eyes have done as far as we know is restore Sasuke's eyesight and prevent his eyes from being sealed.
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  17. #43
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Hakuteiken's Avatar
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    Re: Was things really necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    I disagree. Naruto doesn't have Minato or Raikage level speed that can allow him to attack Sasuke before he can react. Sharingan is Sasuke's best defense against most attacks like FRS or most taijutsu attacks Naruto uses. He was even able to take out most of Naruto's clones when they fought on top of the hospital with just his Sharingan. At the Valley of the End, I think Sasuke had the upperhand until Naruto used the Kyuubi's chakra, then they were evenly matched when Sasuke went CS2. I could be remembering wrong though, especially since Naruto didn't use more power until the rasengan and chidori clash.
    Still, when they were fighting on the roof, his Rasengan was a whole lot more powerful than Sasuke's Chidori. It won't mean much, though, as Rasengan in its own nature produces more destructive force compared to Chidori's concentrated attack, but still, Sasuke himself questioned about the lack of power he had. That's how Orochimaru lured him out of Konoha, anyway.
    It's been a while since Naruto last fought without Kyuubi in the manga, so, we cannot clearly talk about his speed, but I agree, definitely not Raikage level.

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    Only thing Itachi's eyes have done as far as we know is restore Sasuke's eyesight and prevent his eyes from being sealed.
    I presumed that EMS has given him a power boost in some other way. I don't know where I read it, but as far as I remember, it had got something to do with chakra drainage upon using MS techniques.

  18. #44
    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: Was things really necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    Still, when they were fighting on the roof, his Rasengan was a whole lot more powerful than Sasuke's Chidori. It won't mean much, though, as Rasengan in its own nature produces more destructive force compared to Chidori's concentrated attack, but still, Sasuke himself questioned about the lack of power he had. That's how Orochimaru lured him out of Konoha, anyway.
    It's been a while since Naruto last fought without Kyuubi in the manga, so, we cannot clearly talk about his speed, but I agree, definitely not Raikage level.
    And apparently Naruto was holding back against full-powered chidori when he used rasengan first few times. But still, unless Naruto finds a way to hit Sasuke, it's not gonna work. Sasuke has better chances of landing chidori on Naruto. Though Sage Mode is part of Naruto's power, no? That actually better puts both on stalemate instead of giving Sasuke an edge. Would absolutely love to see the manga go back to its roots and take away all the stupid power like Kyuub and Susano'o, even though Susano'o is Sasuke's own power.

    True, but we did see his speed after his fight with Pain against Kumo and to a degree, when he saved Sakura. He was fast enough.



    Quote Quote:
    I presumed that EMS has given him a power boost in some other way. I don't know where I read it, but as far as I remember, it had got something to do with chakra drainage upon using MS techniques.
    I only recall EMS restoring eyesight and preventing sealing of the eyes. One of the members might have mentioned chakra drainage or you may have assumed it when Sasuke was able to spam MS jutsu without a problem.

    Like I mentioned though, it's too early to tell
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  20. #45
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Kid Chameleone's Avatar
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    Re: Was things really necessary?

    @ 3c. *claps slow.*

    I've literally been saying what this guy has for months now and no ones listened to me. http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showth...chiha-Vs-Senju. my first posts were deleted though.... stop deleting my posts! im not bashing im being honest! lol the manga isnt as good as it was

    The MS sharigan is too much! How can anyone keep up with a gifted sharigan user? On top of amaterasu and tsukyomi they can call the megazord and become almost invincible and crush mountains; And on top of the already hax 3, sorry 5!! ms abilities each eye comes with its own special powers, like teleporting to different dimensions and complete mind control? I call bullshit. One, it makes anyone in the clan an almost lethal threat and two, it puts the clan in a complete realm of their own. How can anyone stand up to that? the senju were said to be thier rivals but all they have is a high chakra capacity they wouldnt be able to compete with them on equal terms, top uchiha vs top senju, the uchiha would always come out on top given they have a lethal tank they can hide in or summon inextinguishable black flames that burn for 7 days.

    The reason the manga got out of hand was because kishi didnt plan the sharigan properly, he gave sasuke susanno so he needed to balance out the power levels so naruto got kyuubi mode but since it made him fast as minato and super kyuubi cloak sasuke will most likely get the perfect susannoo to balance the playing field. see where im going with this? Kishi doesnt plan anything, the 3rd vs the 2 kages is like a chunnin fight as i think 3c said earlier. He built up the uchiha to the point where they were untouchable and thus naruto got fox mode, kakashi has like infinite chakra and does like 30 kamui's a day now and was on the verge of death or his last bit of chakra like 9 times now. so many ass pulls have come out of no where due to carelessness and lack of interest in anyone other than sasuke(who is kishi favorite cahracter to draw might i add). We've seen nothing from any clan or any unique nin from part one except for the uchiha, the senju and uzumaki were brought up just as another clutch for the sharigan evolution to the rinnengan.think about it, are the senju and uchiha really necessary? because if you take them out and make hashirama and tobirama just special nins and get rid of the uzumaki so naruto just has a massive chakra reserve from being a host the story would still flow pretty much the exact same way. they werent needed, they were just stepping stone for the uchiha to be able to reach perfection.

    Its sad because the uchiha and those who have hashirama cells are in a realm of their own to the point where you have to jack a pair of eye or head to the blood bank to be on the same level of power. what happened to ''a dropout can surpass and genius with hard work''? its been tossed aside for uber techniques and gundams.

    Naruto, instead of training and honing his various potential abilities i.e wind chakra, sealing techniques and not to mention his garbage hand to hand and genjutsu dispelling to fight sasuke on equal terms to counter his sharigan, he simply got thrown sage mode and kyuubi zord and rushes into every battle with the same one liner ... RASENGAN!

    another question, what happened to all the clans in part one? the konoha 11 each had their own style and flair that was not imitated not to mention every nin that was shown in part one was unique, now we simply have carbon copy nins who jack cells and steal eyes for power. if you want to compete with the best you better go grave robbing, grab some eyes and some cells to get your stats up or have a super atomic destructo ray like oonoki... i used to love this manga so much, now i just wanna see the end

    naruto, baby, you've changed... i dont think its gonna work, we just want two different things. I want an original manga with unique characters and you wanna be dragonball z... we have to break up, its for the best.

    I've had one orange jump suit saviour in my life, i dont need a wanna be goku.
    Last edited by Kid Chameleone; November 27, 2012 at 01:19 AM.

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