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Actually the fight with Shukaku did not bother me much as Bunta stated that he could not fight him long enough. So atleast Bunta was powered out quite fast. It'd be even okay if the Bijuu were this strong like they are currently but maybe a bit weaker - but there should be other limitations:
1) The Mass of Chakra the Jinchuuriki that is in sync with his Bijuu can use is limited like it is when he's not in sync. The body simply can't take this mass of chakra, thats why the seal is there. So the power of a Jinchuuriki is limited by his own Chakra capacity simply like sage mode.
2) Only VERY few Ninja should be able to fight Bijuuu toe to toe. Hidan and Kakazu could do it because they were more or less immortal, Kisame just had an incredible Chakra and Samehada, Itachi had his Sharigan, Sasori could pull the strings from somewhere else and Deidara could also attack from a distance. Nagato doesn't need a mention. So acutally the Akatski was done well. Other ninjas should be forced to rely on strong sealing techniques, barriers etc.
One could also use summons to fight Bijuu some time - but i don't like the concept that everyone lately seems to be able to fight toe to toe with a bijuu.
As for Susanoo i think that it would've been to good idea to split the abilities in differenz Susanoos up like one's good at attacking, the other is good at defending.
Itachi for example would be a big Defence shield with the bonus ability to seal someone. Sasuke would be the attacking type and would've still needed to be very fast in order to dodge the enemys attacks.
Naruto without Kyuubi and Sasuke without Susano'o would be a close battle, very close since they are roughly on the same level imo, thus if Sasuke could turn off Kyuubi he could be able to match Naruto just fine while having a great shot at winning, since its not like he's a noob without Susano'o.
They would counter it like Hashirama, Kushina and Madara did:
suppressing the Bijuu or genjutsuing it.
Both descends from a guy that defeated the Juubi, so them having an unfair advantage over them is logical. As such, it would force Kishimoto to let Naruto grow outside the Kyuubi, which would be good.
A fight between Naruto and Sasuke without Kyuubi and Susano'o is my secret dream for their final battle, alas it will never come into fruition
Only bothersome thing about Sharingan is the evolution process to Rinnegan, but that isn't something achievable without possessing Senju DNA, so, it's not a natural Sharingan ability, to begin with.
If all Sharingan users actually had access to awakening the Rinnegan, then things would really get out of hand.
Of course, by using a powerful genjutsu like Madara, you can control the Bijuu or you can control it the way Hashirama did, but if we are talking about actual combat, you need an unreal durability.
And Hachibi didn't even put a scratch on Sandaime Raikage's body. That's an entirely different level of body strength.
The chief problem with the Sharingan is how Kishimoto keeps on retconning the Sharingan's "true power". Initially copying was its "true power" until Itachi showed up with the MS; the MS was then the "true power" until Tobi/Madara showed up with the EMS; and then the EMS was retconned with the Rinnegan being the final evolution of the Sharingan. With the Juubi, the Sharingan could evolve into something even beyond the power of the Rinnegan. Altogether that's five showings of the Sharingan's "true power".
A lot of this has to deal with the fact that Kishimoto didn't have the entirety of the story fleshed out at the beginning (Itachi showed up only after a few years the manga started). Now this tendency is nigh-universal in the manga industry, but as Part II shows, Kishimoto has made some major changes to the storyline...again...despite 15 years of serialization. The constant retconning of the Sharingan is the result of poor planning.
I don't remember the exact point in the manga where it was stated explicitly that the true power of the Sharingan was it's ability to copy jutsu. I remember it being stated that it was one of it's abilities.Originally Posted by Franckie
^ Considering the meaning of the word Sharingan is "copying-wheel eye", and it was famous in part 1 because it could copy every jutsu, one can assume it was the Sharingan's strongest point
I myself yearn to see a Sussano-less and Kyuubi-less fight. This whole tailed beasts business has spiraled out of control for me at least.
That said, it's like having a 5% more chance of winning at most. Not a dramatic difference it would make.
I'd rather have a battle of Naruto without Kyuubi and Sasuke without EMS. Susano'o is Sasuke's own power, while EMS is the result of getting Itachi's eyes. So, taking Sasuke's Susano'o out of context is more like taking Rasen Shuriken away from Naruto.
If Kyuubi and EMS are left out, they are on their own. Only their techniques would count and they would have to rely on their power, not Kyuubi's, or as in Sasuke's case, Itachi's.
This way, we would get to see who is better as an old school Shinobi.
You know what I miss? Hand seals. How often are they used now? I loved how they were explained in the "Naruto Bridge" arc. At most now I seem to get two fingers pointing towards the spot in between the shinobis eye brows before epic jutsus are used.
However I will believe MS was likely its ultimate power, one could even go as far as to say that a Susano'o'less MS was the ultimate power of the Sharingan (ultimate ninjutsu and genjutsu). Itachi came into the manga fairly early on, I seriously doubt Kishi didn't even have it planned that far ahead. I never got the feeling things were poorly planned until part 2. What's however true is that Itachi's MS design was never showed until the end of part 1 despite being talked about and used previously, however it's a pointless point of argument. All in all MS could easily be seen as an anomaly in the Sharingan, a freak chance of evolution that only the greatest geniuses would achieve.
However the rest ties into the Senju vs Uchiha and Rikudou Sennin plot that I mentioned in my previous post. Once those plots increased their importance, MS could suddenly evolve even farther, first to EMS, and then to Rinnegan (and who knows what with Juubi's freaky eye casting a giant foreshadowing). The Rinnegan in itself could have stood alone as a freak mutation, a legend. I found that aspect far more intriguing than a messy yet-another upgrade, Super Saiyan style for the Sharingan. I've also been vocal about how Kishi has treated Nagato, and utterly trashed his character with confirmation about all his power being borrowed. Nagato could have stood alone, but my making everything "tie together" needlessly, Kishi has ruined the ocular powers in NARUTO.
Remember what the end game is, fighting chakra monsters. Everyone's ok with tsukioyomi and ameratsu because we can can "visualize" using your eyes to hypnotize someone or seeing laser beams pop out of your eyes which is what ameratsu essentially is. The problem is that ameratsu has some severe limitations imbedded with it so you can't spam-fire a bijuu into submission with it. You needed to give the Sharingan a physical component that could engage the entity, that was Susano. It's not a far leap really. Summoning was established in Part 1 so summoning spiritual armor isn't that much of a stretch. People just feel it doesn't belong in the sharingan dojutsu bag of parlor tricks. It's aesthetics, but it's doable in a fantasy story.Quote:
The Sharingan wasn't adapted to the world Kishi designed, it was the vehicle through which Sasuke could compete with the most powerful entities in the world, the bijuu. Naruto is a power-based story. Knowledge is fine in spots, but power is what gets things done in this world. Imagine you're a 14 year-old and facing off with Godzilla. Snowball's chance in hell of winning that fight. Now envision yourself as a 17-year old against Godzilla. Odds are just as bad. Now envision yourself as a 17-year old inside a Death Star going after Godzilla. Odds are in your favor. Why? Because of power. Sasuke's power levels rise only through application of his sharingan, nothing else. But if he hadn't done this course then the powers he acquired wouldn't be his own, they be borrowed and every ninja would be spamming it. Naruto hopped around. First it was new jutsu. Then it was sage mode. Then a fusion of the two, Kyuubi mode. All-given, and not really earned except for the first one. That's what has people chomping at the bit, they want these power-ups to be earned like it was for all their opponents. But that would proceed past the timeline that is planned for this story. For it to be earned and believable, Naruto and Sasuke would be adults in their mid-30's to pull of a fight that is occuring in the manga presently. Kishi didn't want it to go that long so Sasuke and Naruto got their "power-ups" through the mediums listed.Quote:
But that argument is based upon a preconception, and a false one at that. Just because Minato was a fast ninja doesn't exclude there being other fast ninja as well. For 85% of the story we were only exposed to the capabilites of one nation plus Gaara's family. Why would you expect the people of other lands not to have people with similar proficiencies and abilites? Because Kishi hadn't introduced them yet? We've been provided with the point of view and abilites of only one nation for this series, but they aren't the only player in town.Quote:
I get the feeling people think Rinnegan is an automatic unlock when like everything Sharingan, it requires prerequisites and even then, there's a low chance of unlocking it immediately, apparently.
But yeah, Kishi has ruined ocular powers. He gave too much power to Sharingan lineage and didn't focus on Byakugan.
Only thing Itachi's eyes have done as far as we know is restore Sasuke's eyesight and prevent his eyes from being sealed.Quote:
It's been a while since Naruto last fought without Kyuubi in the manga, so, we cannot clearly talk about his speed, but I agree, definitely not Raikage level.
True, but we did see his speed after his fight with Pain against Kumo and to a degree, when he saved Sakura. He was fast enough.
I only recall EMS restoring eyesight and preventing sealing of the eyes. One of the members might have mentioned chakra drainage or you may have assumed it when Sasuke was able to spam MS jutsu without a problem.Quote:
Like I mentioned though, it's too early to tell
@ 3c. *claps slow.*
I've literally been saying what this guy has for months now and no ones listened to me. http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showth...chiha-Vs-Senju. my first posts were deleted though.... stop deleting my posts! im not bashing im being honest! lol the manga isnt as good as it was
The MS sharigan is too much! How can anyone keep up with a gifted sharigan user? On top of amaterasu and tsukyomi they can call the megazord and become almost invincible and crush mountains; And on top of the already hax 3, sorry 5!! ms abilities each eye comes with its own special powers, like teleporting to different dimensions and complete mind control? I call bullshit. One, it makes anyone in the clan an almost lethal threat and two, it puts the clan in a complete realm of their own. How can anyone stand up to that? the senju were said to be thier rivals but all they have is a high chakra capacity they wouldnt be able to compete with them on equal terms, top uchiha vs top senju, the uchiha would always come out on top given they have a lethal tank they can hide in or summon inextinguishable black flames that burn for 7 days.
The reason the manga got out of hand was because kishi didnt plan the sharigan properly, he gave sasuke susanno so he needed to balance out the power levels so naruto got kyuubi mode but since it made him fast as minato and super kyuubi cloak sasuke will most likely get the perfect susannoo to balance the playing field. see where im going with this? Kishi doesnt plan anything, the 3rd vs the 2 kages is like a chunnin fight as i think 3c said earlier. He built up the uchiha to the point where they were untouchable and thus naruto got fox mode, kakashi has like infinite chakra and does like 30 kamui's a day now and was on the verge of death or his last bit of chakra like 9 times now. so many ass pulls have come out of no where due to carelessness and lack of interest in anyone other than sasuke(who is kishi favorite cahracter to draw might i add). We've seen nothing from any clan or any unique nin from part one except for the uchiha, the senju and uzumaki were brought up just as another clutch for the sharigan evolution to the rinnengan.think about it, are the senju and uchiha really necessary? because if you take them out and make hashirama and tobirama just special nins and get rid of the uzumaki so naruto just has a massive chakra reserve from being a host the story would still flow pretty much the exact same way. they werent needed, they were just stepping stone for the uchiha to be able to reach perfection.
Its sad because the uchiha and those who have hashirama cells are in a realm of their own to the point where you have to jack a pair of eye or head to the blood bank to be on the same level of power. what happened to ''a dropout can surpass and genius with hard work''? its been tossed aside for uber techniques and gundams.
Naruto, instead of training and honing his various potential abilities i.e wind chakra, sealing techniques and not to mention his garbage hand to hand and genjutsu dispelling to fight sasuke on equal terms to counter his sharigan, he simply got thrown sage mode and kyuubi zord and rushes into every battle with the same one liner ... RASENGAN!
another question, what happened to all the clans in part one? the konoha 11 each had their own style and flair that was not imitated not to mention every nin that was shown in part one was unique, now we simply have carbon copy nins who jack cells and steal eyes for power. if you want to compete with the best you better go grave robbing, grab some eyes and some cells to get your stats up or have a super atomic destructo ray like oonoki... i used to love this manga so much, now i just wanna see the end
naruto, baby, you've changed... i dont think its gonna work, we just want two different things. I want an original manga with unique characters and you wanna be dragonball z... we have to break up, its for the best.
I've had one orange jump suit saviour in my life, i dont need a wanna be goku.
Last edited by Kid Chameleone; November 27, 2012 at 01:19 AM.