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Thread: Was things really necessary?

  1. #46
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted xXan's Avatar
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    Re: Was things really necessary?

    @M3J


    How much do you whant to bet Sasuke is going to have a fight and then evolve Rinnegan out of his but? I am ready to bet money (after he get's some senju DNA in the future of course).
    Sasuke is going to remember his kid sister that he does not have getting molested by Danzo and then BAM Rinnegan pops in his eyes and then they al go "WOW, his hate is over 9000!!!!"....

  2. #47
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member shahdan's Avatar
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    Re: Was things really necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    I'd say, even without Kyuubi, Naruto would have the upper hand. He still has monstrous chakra reserves and Sasuke without Susano'o will not possess a great defense to counter his attacks. He'd be forced to rely more and more on his ocular power.
    That said, it's like having a 5% more chance of winning at most. Not a dramatic difference it would make.

    I'd rather have a battle of Naruto without Kyuubi and Sasuke without EMS. Susano'o is Sasuke's own power, while EMS is the result of getting Itachi's eyes. So, taking Sasuke's Susano'o out of context is more like taking Rasen Shuriken away from Naruto.
    If Kyuubi and EMS are left out, they are on their own. Only their techniques would count and they would have to rely on their power, not Kyuubi's, or as in Sasuke's case, Itachi's.
    This way, we would get to see who is better as an old school Shinobi.
    The Uchiha were gifted with a vast amount of Chakra as well, so I believe that shouldn't be a problem for Sasuke. At base level, Sasuke's speed is tiers above Kyuubi-less Naruto's, as he dodged and pierced A's armour at that speed. Sharingen's detection ability only adds to the effect. Then you have the whole Taijustu and intelligence feats. Sasuke bests Naruto easily.

    As far as EMS is concerned, then whatever the reasons it is still a clan specific ritual.

  3. #48
    MangaHelper MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Hakuteiken's Avatar
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    Re: Was things really necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by shahdan View Post
    The Uchiha were gifted with a vast amount of Chakra as well, so I believe that shouldn't be a problem for Sasuke. At base level, Sasuke's speed is tiers above Kyuubi-less Naruto's, as he dodged and pierced A's armour at that speed. Sharingen's detection ability only adds to the effect. Then you have the whole Taijustu and intelligence feats. Sasuke bests Naruto easily.

    As far as EMS is concerned, then whatever the reasons it is still a clan specific ritual.
    I wouldn't go that far to say he's tiers above just because he dodged Raikage's attack. It's clear that Raikage wasn't going at full speed. Don't know why he didn't, because if he did, Sasuke wouldn't be able to dodge. As fast as Sasuke can be, he's just not that fast. But Sharingan will obviously play a role in that department.
    As far as taijutsu goes, I don't know if I can call Sasuke a better taijutsu user or not. Maybe I'll need to check back to see when these two last used taijutsu.
    Hands down, although his perception of events improved a bit, seen against his fight with Third Raikage, Naruto still lacks the intellect Sasuke possesses.

  4. #49
    Moemin 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member 3c's Avatar
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    Re: Was things really necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    Actually though, Rinnegan isn't an actual upgrade or easy evolution like people think. Only Madara was known to achieve Rinnegan from Sharingan, and only because of Hashirama's cells and near the end of his life. It apparently takes a lot to unlock Rinnegan, and even then you don't have a high chance of getting it successfully. Who's to say that Sasuke will unlock Rinnegan when it took even Madara decades to do so?
    I get the feeling people think Rinnegan is an automatic unlock when like everything Sharingan, it requires prerequisites and even then, there's a low chance of unlocking it immediately, apparently.

    But yeah, Kishi has ruined ocular powers. He gave too much power to Sharingan lineage and didn't focus on Byakugan.
    I did not say it was an easy upgrade, but maybe you didn't include me in "like people think". I'm sure you know, likely better than most, that it's not the case. Either way, it being hard to achieve or not doesn't really matter. The fact is that it cheapens once "legendary" powers like regular Susano'o'less Mangekyou as seen in Itachi until he fought Sasuke. It's just like Dragon Ball, although in Dragon Ball's case the "legend" was truly ruined to oblivion when "all the kids" started becoming Super Saiyans and advancing, not only once, but in one case even twice.

    In Naruto it does make more sense. Like the the Super Saiyan form in DB, Rinnegan is considered a legend, and it has a build up. What I think could have been left out however is the Eternal Mangekyou. It strikes me as a completely unnecessary upgrade and "necessity for evolution". Why would you need "permanent eyes" to achieve a greater and "complete" form of the Sharingan? Couldn't "the eyes of God" give you permanent vision automatically? It's pretty stupid logic to need to remove your sibling's eyes to gain a permanent set, and only then be able to achieve Rinnegan (or not really). Having Sharingan > MS + Senju DNA + immense training/whatever = Rinnegan would be better in my opinion and be a more logical form of evolution, if you can call it that. I realize it makes the Rinnegan more easily achieved, but to me it makes more sense. I've never been a big fan of the whole eye swapping, DNA implanting deal anycase. Kakashi was cool when he was an exception, the rest have been dull as hell. Now I'm sad it's 100% confirmed Nagato's eyes weren't "Nagato's eyes" but just more eye swapping, even illogical at that.

    Also yes, the Byakugan has truly become a wonderful side kick since ages ago. It's rather out of place in the Narutoverse right now.
    Last edited by 3c; November 27, 2012 at 04:16 PM.

  5. #50
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member shahdan's Avatar
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    Re: Was things really necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    I wouldn't go that far to say he's tiers above just because he dodged Raikage's attack. It's clear that Raikage wasn't going at full speed. Don't know why he didn't, because if he did, Sasuke wouldn't be able to dodge. As fast as Sasuke can be, he's just not that fast. But Sharingan will obviously play a role in that department.
    As far as taijutsu goes, I don't know if I can call Sasuke a better taijutsu user or not. Maybe I'll need to check back to see when these two last used taijutsu.
    Hands down, although his perception of events improved a bit, seen against his fight with Third Raikage, Naruto still lacks the intellect Sasuke possesses.
    Raikage was using his lightening armour. So he was using his full speed at that point. There is nothing to suggest that he wasn't. Naruto's base speed without his modes is not that high. Sasuke is better at Taijustu because of his kaleidoscope ability.

  6. #51
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    Re: Was things really necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by shahdan View Post
    Raikage was using his lightening armour. So he was using his full speed at that point. There is nothing to suggest that he wasn't. Naruto's base speed without his modes is not that high. Sasuke is better at Taijustu because of his kaleidoscope ability.

    http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/544/13
    Raikage himself stated that his full speed attack was only dodged once, and the only man to do it was Yondaime Hokage.

  7. #52
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member shahdan's Avatar
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    Re: Was things really necessary?

    ^ That must have been with Body flicker then. You can't call that base speed. As it's in conjunction with two techniques. Also, sasuke has dodged Bee's attack as well, which he stated was only dodged by A. Either they are beck to neck, or I don't know what to say.

  8. #53
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    Re: Was things really necessary?

    To be honest, I'm not sure how to interpret this, either.
    Other than Sasuke being at around a respectable speed level, nothing would come out of it.

    If someone else provides more reference about it, that'd be great. Provided it's possible, of course.

  9. #54
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Delbi's Avatar
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    Re: Was things really necessary?

    I may be way off but is it possible that Madara didn't believe he was going to gain the Rinnegan when he combined Hashirama's cells into his body?

    IMO, it is very possible that he did that just so he could extend his life, not gain new power. After all he is trying to cast Infinite Tsyukiyomi, a Sharigan technique, not a Rinnegan one. So is it possible he wouldn't even need it?

    ---------- Post added at 05:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:28 PM ----------

    In regards to Sasuke's base speed, his is very fast and is able to counter attacks like he did with Sasuke thanks to his Sharigan and physique which grants him great speed.

    His fastest speed of course is when he uses Shushin. The same could be said for the Raikage, as by only using his super charged shushin was he able to dodge Amaterasu.
    "The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

  10. #55
    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: Was things really necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    @M3J


    How much do you whant to bet Sasuke is going to have a fight and then evolve Rinnegan out of his but? I am ready to bet money (after he get's some senju DNA in the future of course).
    Sasuke is going to remember his kid sister that he does not have getting molested by Danzo and then BAM Rinnegan pops in his eyes and then they al go "WOW, his hate is over 9000!!!!"....
    He's not Naruto, he won't get a powerup out of nowhere like that. It took Madara more than Senju DNA, EMS, and having unusually strong chakra even among Uchiha for him to get Rinnegan. For all we know, Kishi's just teasing about Sasuke getting Rinnegan, but he never gets it. Even if he does get some kind of powerup like Rinnegan, Sasuke's not gonna have an easy victory, as shown when he had a hard time fighting Bee, Raikage, and even Danzou.

    Quote Originally Posted by 3c View Post
    I did not say it was an easy upgrade, but maybe you didn't include me in "like people think". I'm sure you know, likely better than most, that it's not the case. Either way, it being hard to achieve or not doesn't really matter. The fact is that it cheapens once "legendary" powers like regular Susano'o'less Mangekyou as seen in Itachi until he fought Sasuke. It's just like Dragon Ball, although in Dragon Ball's case the "legend" was truly ruined to oblivion when "all the kids" started becoming Super Saiyans and advancing, not only once, but in one case even twice.
    I don't see how exactly it cheapens anything considering what it takes to unlock Rinnegan. You can argue Mangekyo is cheapened, since Sasuke, Tobi, Kakashi, etc have it, but Rinnegan so far isn't since only Madara has had it.

    Sucks that Kishi decided to make Mangekyo common, though. Itachi and Madara should have been the only ones to have Mangekyo or at least, Susano'o. Sad thing with shounen manga is that power scales tend to go out of whack when they don't need to increase so much.

    Quote Quote:
    In Naruto it does make more sense. Like the the Super Saiyan form in DB, Rinnegan is considered a legend, and it has a build up. What I think could have been left out however is the Eternal Mangekyou. It strikes me as a completely unnecessary upgrade and "necessity for evolution". Why would you need "permanent eyes" to achieve a greater and "complete" form of the Sharingan? Couldn't "the eyes of God" give you permanent vision automatically? It's pretty stupid logic to need to remove your sibling's eyes to gain a permanent set, and only then be able to achieve Rinnegan (or not really). Having Sharingan > MS + Senju DNA + immense training/whatever = Rinnegan would be better in my opinion and be a more logical form of evolution, if you can call it that. I realize it makes the Rinnegan more easily achieved, but to me it makes more sense. I've never been a big fan of the whole eye swapping, DNA implanting deal anycase. Kakashi was cool when he was an exception, the rest have been dull as hell. Now I'm sad it's 100% confirmed Nagato's eyes weren't "Nagato's eyes" but just more eye swapping, even illogical at that.
    Unlike Super Saiyan form though, Rinnegan is extremely rare, having have had one Rinnegan user until Madara. There was one Super Saiyan before Goku's time, apparently, then we had Broly, then Goku, then Vegeta, then Gohan, then Trunks, and as far as I know, Goten. I guess it takes a feeling related to death, like fear of death or anger at death due to not accomplishing anything, to unlock Rinnegan? It's definitely hard as hell, apparently.


    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi View Post
    I may be way off but is it possible that Madara didn't believe he was going to gain the Rinnegan when he combined Hashirama's cells into his body?

    IMO, it is very possible that he did that just so he could extend his life, not gain new power. After all he is trying to cast Infinite Tsyukiyomi, a Sharigan technique, not a Rinnegan one. So is it possible he wouldn't even need it?

    ---------- Post added at 05:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:28 PM ----------

    In regards to Sasuke's base speed, his is very fast and is able to counter attacks like he did with Sasuke thanks to his Sharigan and physique which grants him great speed.

    His fastest speed of course is when he uses Shushin. The same could be said for the Raikage, as by only using his super charged shushin was he able to dodge Amaterasu.
    I think he did think he'd get Rinnegan, unless he learned about Rinnegan way later or came up with the Moon's Eye Plan after the fight. He probably wanted the Rinnegan to summon the Juubi/Gedo Mazou and to be able to control the Juubi, especially as jinchuuriki.

  11. #56
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    Re: Was things really necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    He's not Naruto, he won't get a powerup out of nowhere like that.
    Excuse me?
    Sasuke's last "earned" power-up was 3-tomoe Sharingan, and even then it wasn't him training, but the Sharingan naturally evolving.
    He's exactly like Naruto in this aspect

  12. #57
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    Re: Was things really necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    Excuse me?
    Sasuke's last "earned" power-up was 3-tomoe Sharingan, and even then it wasn't him training, but the Sharingan naturally evolving.
    He's exactly like Naruto in this aspect
    I believe the point is that said power-ups are foreshadowed beforehand. We knew of the three tomoe, MS, and EMS via Kakashi and Itachi before Sasuke had even gained them. Same with CS and Orochimaru's abilities. He doesn't suddenly gain stuff mid-battle like another certain person.

  13. #58
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    Re: Was things really necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    I believe the point is that said power-ups are foreshadowed beforehand. We knew of the three tomoe, MS, and EMS via Kakashi and Itachi before Sasuke had even gained them. Same with CS and Orochimaru's abilities. He doesn't suddenly gain stuff mid-battle like another certain person.
    Let's compare them, shall we?

    Naruto:
    Kyuubi- Foreshadowed since, well, chapter 1
    Kage Bushin- Forbidden scroll, again chapter 1
    Kuchiyose- Foreshadowed
    Rasengan- Foreshadowed a chap prior by Jiraiya, trained for 2 weeks for it
    Rasen Shuriken- Foreshadowed for, like, a whole arc
    Sage Mode- Foreshadowed
    Chakra Mode- Foreshadowed thanks to the Toads, with Naruto meeting Bee to harness Kyuubi's powers
    Bijuu Mode- Foreshadowed by Bee during the training to harness Chakra Mode, saying how Naruto's link with Kyuubi was imperfect

    Sasuke
    Sharingan- Foreshadowed
    Cursed Seal- Not foreshadowed, obtained for free ( both lv 1 and 2 )
    Chidori- Foreshadowed
    Chidori variants- Foreshadowed
    Orochimaru's absorbing jutsu- Foreshadowed, despite Oro being a retard
    MS- Foreshadowed
    Kuchiyose- Not foreshadowed, like, at all, but its still a jutsu so meh.
    EMS- Foreshadowed
    Scroll power- Foreshadowed

    I see both of them not being all that different, really

  14. #59
    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: Was things really necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    Excuse me?
    Sasuke's last "earned" power-up was 3-tomoe Sharingan, and even then it wasn't him training, but the Sharingan naturally evolving.
    He's exactly like Naruto in this aspect
    No, his last "earned" powerup was Mangekyo, since he did have to actually fight for it and feel the emotions necessary. Naruto's last "earned" powerup was when he beat the Kyuubi and stole its chakra. EMS and Kyuubi lending Naruto chakra before being his complete butt buddy can be debated, actually.

    Kage bunshin wasn't foreshadowed, it didnt' need to be. We saw Naruto train to master kage bunshin, rasengan, FRS, wind element, and Sage Mode, as well as SM FRS. He won most of his fights without much trouble, even against Pain. We also saw Sasuke technically train his MS against the kage and Bee, two fights that he didn't escape unscathed from, Cursed Seal wasn't a free powerup as he had a chance of dying after he was bitten, and it and CS2 corroded his body, if I recall. Or at least CS2. Kyuubi's chakra doesn't do much damage by comparison until it gets to the fourth tail, and now, there's no damage. I'm not sure if Sasuke after the timeskip felt the effects of the CS2, since there's no hint he did. In any case, we didn't see Sasuke shoot out Amaterasu like a pro immediately or use some kind of jutsu that made no sense, like his Susano'o usin chidori, whereas Naruto used FRS in Kyuubi Mode, even a mini-FRS.

    Hell, Kyuubi turned butt buddies with Naruto out of nowhere and had a 180 degree personality change. That is far worse than anything Sasuke has done, although probably because I believe Naruto will beat Sasuke anyway and thus don't care about his powerups.

  15. #60
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member marshall313's Avatar
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    Re: Was things really necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by shahdan View Post
    Raikage was using his lightening armour. So he was using his full speed at that point. There is nothing to suggest that he wasn't. Naruto's base speed without his modes is not that high. Sasuke is better at Taijustu because of his kaleidoscope ability.
    No. Naruto is much more better in taijutsu than sasuke. His kaliedoscope ability is useless to naruto's frog katas.

    And sasuke's speed is also useless to sage naruto.
    No matter how POWERFUL/STRONG you are. If you cannot CATCH your Enemy, all your POWER/STRENGTH is no more useful then a squirt gun. And if you cannot possibly TRACK/REACT to your enemies attacks to defend yourself, then how can you possibly stop him from DEFEATING you at will?

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