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Thread: Was things really necessary?

  1. #61
    MangaHelper MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Rikudou King's Avatar
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    Re: Was things really necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    Let's compare them, shall we?

    Naruto:
    Kyuubi- Foreshadowed since, well, chapter 1
    Kage Bushin- Forbidden scroll, again chapter 1

    Kuchiyose- Foreshadowed
    Rasengan- Foreshadowed a chap prior by Jiraiya, trained for 2 weeks for it
    Rasen Shuriken- Foreshadowed for, like, a whole arc
    Sage Mode- Foreshadowed
    Chakra Mode- Foreshadowed thanks to the Toads, with Naruto meeting Bee to harness Kyuubi's powers
    Bijuu Mode- Foreshadowed by Bee during the training to harness Chakra Mode, saying how Naruto's link with Kyuubi was imperfect


    Sasuke
    Sharingan- Foreshadowed
    Cursed Seal- Not foreshadowed, obtained for free ( both lv 1 and 2 )
    Chidori- Foreshadowed
    Chidori variants- Foreshadowed
    Orochimaru's absorbing jutsu- Foreshadowed, despite Oro being a retard
    MS- Foreshadowed
    Kuchiyose- Not foreshadowed, like, at all, but its still a jutsu so meh.
    EMS- Foreshadowed
    Scroll power- Foreshadowed

    I see both of them not being all that different, really
    - Not sure the first two would be called foreshadowed.
    - Showing it off a chapter before for him to learn is not really foreshadowing.
    - It's not foreshadowing if there was never a hint of it beforehand. At most, you can claim the Fuuton Rasengan, which was what he had been set up to create.
    - When exactly was it foreshadowed that Naruto would gain Sage Mode?
    - Naruto already had the cloak, so this wasn't a point of foreshadowing.
    - Except that was in reference to Kirabi's own link to the Hachibi, which Naruto ended up not being at all like.
    In addition you forgot hatred sensing, clones passing on knowledge, his parents being sealed within him for future aid, and the purity to turn Mokuton into living trees.

    - The first stage of the Curse Seal perhaps, but we saw via the Sound Five there was another stage, and Sasuke was set up to gain it well before he actually displayed it.
    - The hawk maybe, but the snakes were explain by acquiring Orochimaru's power.

    Naruto has clearly gained more stuff off the fly, without any hints that he was on the path to gaining them.

  2. #62
    MangaHelper 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Impossibility's Avatar
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    Re: Was things really necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    Naruto has clearly gained more stuff off the fly, without any hints that he was on the path to gaining them.
    I disagree. Every ability that Naruto's shown has been the result of his training, or is a result of Kurama:

    Shadow clones he struggled to learn at the opening of the manga
    Kuchiyose he learned from Jiraiya, and had to train extensively, and had to eventually have it shoved down his throat to attain
    Rasengan had quite a bit of training, it took half an arc, and even when he used it he had to utilise a novel approach
    Rasen Shuriken had an entire arc dedicated to it, and he continued to perfect it long after this
    Sage Mode had quite a few chapters dedicated to its training
    Chakra Mode, likewise
    Bijuu was simply Naruto gaining Kurama's cooperation, in a manner similar to what had been achieved by Bee
    As for his early-form cloaks, it is what distinguished him as a jinchuuriki. These individuals were sought after 'weapons' for the villages, it's of no surprise that they would have impressive inherent abilities.

    Sasuke, on the other hand:

    Gained Sharingan at just the right times in battle
    Cursed Seal handed to him by Orochimaru
    Rapid increase in speed equal to Lee who trained endlessly to attain
    Give him credit for Chidori, and its variants
    MS shoved into his eyes by his self-sacrificing brother, abilities just pop up when necessary in battle
    Kuchiyose out of absolutely nowhere
    EMS, also had pretty much nothing to do with him
    Sealing technique used to bring back Orochimaru, that just came out of nowhere

  3. #63
    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: Was things really necessary?

    Quote Quote:
    Gained Sharingan at just the right times in battle
    While Naruto got saved by the Kyuubi at the right times in battles. Difference is, Naruto never had to master the Kyuubi, while Sasuke had to train with his Sharingan and his own body, as seen in his fight against Rock Lee. Sasuke even with Sharingan doesn't automatically guarantee he'll be stronger, while Naruto with Kyuubi's chakra drastically increases his power.


    Quote Quote:
    Cursed Seal handed to him by Orochimaru
    With a high chance of Sasuke dying. It's been said that anyone who had the Cursed Seal applied could die from it. Even then, Cursed Seal made it harder for him to use Sharingan, causing him pain. Cursed Seal 2 even corroded his body.

    Quote Quote:
    Rapid increase in speed equal to Lee who trained endlessly to attain
    Sasuke couldn't keep the speed up for a long time. Rock Lee would still have the advantage here as he can keep up his speed for much longer. While Sasuke did get Lee's speed in a month, he didn't get Lee's endurance or stamina. Naruto however, can keep up his Kyuubi mode speed for as long as he wants, without a price to it. Thanks to Kyuubi's chakra, he was able to attack Haku before Haku could react, keep up with Raikage's speed, and even attack Sasuke faster than his 2-tomoe Sharingan could follow, or Sasuke could react.

    Quote Quote:
    MS shoved into his eyes by his self-sacrificing brother, abilities just pop up when necessary in battle
    No different with Kyuubi. Sasuke still had to train to use his MS, Naruto didn't have to train to use Kyuubi. Naruto could heal when he was usin the chakra, increase his speed, get more strength, and in some cases, have good defense. At least Sasuke had to fight for the MS, even if the fight was planned so that he'd win.

    Quote Quote:
    EMS, also had pretty much nothing to do with him
    He still paid a price, his own eyes being sealed. If not for that, Sasuke wouldn't have accepted the EMS. Even then, it's not like it affords free powerups either, Sasuke still... never mind, I'm not sure if he did train for the Amaterasu + Susano'o combo since we never saw it with MS before.


    Sasuke's progression during fights is normal as he's a genius. He trains out of battles and learns and adapts in battles, which increases his power and knowledge. Naruto however, progresses more during training and tends to perfect his art during battles, not necessarily improving as much. He trained to master kage bunshin, rasengan, FRS, and etc, but rasengan as far as I recall is the only jutsu he mastered in battle when he finally hit Kabuto.

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  5. #64
    MangaHelper 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Impossibility's Avatar
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    Re: Was things really necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    While Naruto got saved by the Kyuubi at the right times in battles. Difference is, Naruto never had to master the Kyuubi, while Sasuke had to train with his Sharingan and his own body, as seen in his fight against Rock Lee. Sasuke even with Sharingan doesn't automatically guarantee he'll be stronger, while Naruto with Kyuubi's chakra drastically increases his power.



    With a high chance of Sasuke dying. It's been said that anyone who had the Cursed Seal applied could die from it. Even then, Cursed Seal made it harder for him to use Sharingan, causing him pain. Cursed Seal 2 even corroded his body.


    Sasuke couldn't keep the speed up for a long time. Rock Lee would still have the advantage here as he can keep up his speed for much longer. While Sasuke did get Lee's speed in a month, he didn't get Lee's endurance or stamina. Naruto however, can keep up his Kyuubi mode speed for as long as he wants, without a price to it. Thanks to Kyuubi's chakra, he was able to attack Haku before Haku could react, keep up with Raikage's speed, and even attack Sasuke faster than his 2-tomoe Sharingan could follow, or Sasuke could react.


    No different with Kyuubi. Sasuke still had to train to use his MS, Naruto didn't have to train to use Kyuubi. Naruto could heal when he was usin the chakra, increase his speed, get more strength, and in some cases, have good defense. At least Sasuke had to fight for the MS, even if the fight was planned so that he'd win.


    He still paid a price, his own eyes being sealed. If not for that, Sasuke wouldn't have accepted the EMS. Even then, it's not like it affords free powerups either, Sasuke still... never mind, I'm not sure if he did train for the Amaterasu + Susano'o combo since we never saw it with MS before.


    Sasuke's progression during fights is normal as he's a genius. He trains out of battles and learns and adapts in battles, which increases his power and knowledge. Naruto however, progresses more during training and tends to perfect his art during battles, not necessarily improving as much. He trained to master kage bunshin, rasengan, FRS, and etc, but rasengan as far as I recall is the only jutsu he mastered in battle when he finally hit Kabuto.
    Sasuke's Sharingan abilities didn't develop because of his training, it developed, conveniently, in the middle of battle. Naruto's help from Kurama wasn't by convenient chance, it was self-preservation on the part of the legendary beast, the one sought by many individuals and pretty much the basis of the plot of the manga.

    For all the negative 'consequences' of the CS, Sasuke didn't seemed to be bothered by any of them when it mattered.

    He couldn't keep the speed up for a long time, but he still managed to drastically increase his physical condition in a very short period of time. As for Naruto, he has a monster inside of him that increases his physical capabilities, just like every other Jinchuuriki, this was established from early on. And is one of the many reasons Jinchuurikis are thought of as weapons.

    Naruto always had Kurama, and he had to train to master the use of his chakra. We've seen quite a bit of Naruto attempting to control the chakra, from Jiraiya's training to Bee's. Sasuke just mastered the MS techniques with ease, and they popped up when necessary during battles. And Sasuke fighting for his MS s a joke, it was a farce, Itachi was always intending to give Sasuke his eyes.

    The reality is that Naruto's power was established from the inception of the manga, and even so he had to work at it. Sasuke's power-ups were just made up along the way to allow him to keep up.
    Last edited by Impossibility; November 29, 2012 at 05:07 AM.

  6. #65
    MH Senpai 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Uchiha_Blood's Avatar
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    Re: Was things really necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    Difference is, Naruto never had to master the Kyuubi, while Sasuke had to train with his Sharingan and his own body
    -Training to access Kyuubi's chakra
    -3 Years trip to master the Kyuubi's chakra
    -Fight against the Kyuubi
    -Training to harness Bijuudama and Chakra Mode's abilities

    Now let's see Sasuke's awesome training for the Sharingan

    -2 Tomoe Sharingan unlocked by a life and death situation
    -Automatic evolving to 3 Tomoe
    -Free Mangekyo thanks to Itachi
    -Free EMS

    Quote Quote:
    With a high chance of Sasuke dying. It's been said that anyone who had the Cursed Seal applied could die from it. Even then, Cursed Seal made it harder for him to use Sharingan, causing him pain. Cursed Seal 2 even corroded his body.
    Kyuubi's chakra initially wounded Naruto's body, shortening his life-span, while, with Chakra Mode, he risked killing himself.
    In both occasions the risks were high even if they were useless since we all know neither Naruto nor Sasuke would kill themselves with that

    Quote Quote:
    No different with Kyuubi. Sasuke still had to train to use his MS, Naruto didn't have to train to use Kyuubi. Naruto could heal when he was usin the chakra, increase his speed, get more strength, and in some cases, have good defense. At least Sasuke had to fight for the MS, even if the fight was planned so that he'd win.
    What's worse, fighting Kyuubi or fighting a fight you are already planned to win?
    Also see above the differences between Naruto and Sasuke's "training"

    Quote Quote:
    He still paid a price, his own eyes being sealed.
    Please tell me you aren't serious

    ---------- Post added at 04:15 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:08 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    - Not sure the first two would be called foreshadowed.
    - Showing it off a chapter before for him to learn is not really foreshadowing.
    - It's not foreshadowing if there was never a hint of it beforehand. At most, you can claim the Fuuton Rasengan, which was what he had been set up to create.
    - When exactly was it foreshadowed that Naruto would gain Sage Mode?
    - Naruto already had the cloak, so this wasn't a point of foreshadowing.
    - Except that was in reference to Kirabi's own link to the Hachibi, which Naruto ended up not being at all like.
    In addition you forgot hatred sensing, clones passing on knowledge, his parents being sealed within him for future aid, and the purity to turn Mokuton into living trees.

    - The first stage of the Curse Seal perhaps, but we saw via the Sound Five there was another stage, and Sasuke was set up to gain it well before he actually displayed it.
    - The hawk maybe, but the snakes were explain by acquiring Orochimaru's power.

    Naruto has clearly gained more stuff off the fly, without any hints that he was on the path to gaining them.
    -Naruto being the Kyuubi's Jinchuuriki is the foundation of the manga, and KB was foreshadowed by Mizuki telling Naruto to learn a jutsu from the scroll to pass his faux exam
    -Yes it is, since Naruto didn't randomly used Rasengan, but had to train 2 weeks prior, and was still showed beforehand. You yourself said MS was foreshadowed by Itachi
    -Naruto was gonna create an unique Ninjutsu, and then the whole Elemental arc. If that isn't foreshadowing
    -Sage Mode abilities were showed by Jiraiya, Naruto's master, and then there is Fukasaku proposing it to him
    -I'll need the Kyuubi's chakra to face Sasuke
    -Bijuu Mode can't be reached without full cooperation with the Kyuubi, confirmed later when talking about Bijuudama and the risks of Chakra Mode


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  8. #66
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member marshall313's Avatar
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    Re: Was things really necessary?

    Sasuke is indeed more smarter than naruto. But he never gained his power through his hard work or for being a genius. He gained almost of his power through free upgrade.

    And now, naruto trained his butt to control the kyubi's chakra and he make kurama his bff by fighting the mazou and freeing son goku.

    But for sasuke, his latest free upgrade is the scroll that suigetsu found. And now that he was with orochimaru, sasuke will gain again another free power.

    So there's no mistake about it, sasuke is a genius but he's also the king of free powerups.
    When i claimed that minato knows Kage Bunshin, They said that I'm wrong.
    When i claimed that minato is a sage mode user, they said that I'm delusional.
    When i claimed that minato can extend his chakra arms and can activate BM, they said that I'm ridiculous.
    Seriously, Who's "wrong", "delusional" and "ridiculous" now?

  9. #67
    MangaHelper MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Rikudou King's Avatar
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    Re: Was things really necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    I disagree. Every ability that Naruto's shown has been the result of his training, or is a result of Kurama:

    Shadow clones he struggled to learn at the opening of the manga
    Kuchiyose he learned from Jiraiya, and had to train extensively, and had to eventually have it shoved down his throat to attain
    Rasengan had quite a bit of training, it took half an arc, and even when he used it he had to utilise a novel approach
    Rasen Shuriken had an entire arc dedicated to it, and he continued to perfect it long after this
    Sage Mode had quite a few chapters dedicated to its training
    Chakra Mode, likewise
    Bijuu was simply Naruto gaining Kurama's cooperation, in a manner similar to what had been achieved by Bee
    As for his early-form cloaks, it is what distinguished him as a jinchuuriki. These individuals were sought after 'weapons' for the villages, it's of no surprise that they would have impressive inherent abilities.
    The Rasen-Shuriken came out of nowhere, as the arc started out as a means to combine wind nature with Rasengan. With Sage Mode, Naruto was naturally gifted and suddenly thought up a way to overcome it's weakness just before his fight with Pain. There was training up to three tails, which still cause Naruto to lose some control, and after that Naruto was never effected by the supposed weaknesses due to the Kyuubi having a magical change of heart right off the bat.

    Making Jinchuurikis had nothing to do with inherited abilities, but making the Bijuus controllable for battle. Hatred sensing and the ability to turn Mokuton to trees came out of nowhere. In addition, you clearly missed what the original discussion was about, which was over the foreshadowing of them learning/gaining abilities. Most of Sasuke's abilities were shown or hinted at well before he actually gained them, whereas a good portion of Naruto's abilities came out of nowhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    I disagree. Every ability that Naruto's shown has been the result of his training, or is a result of Kurama:
    Same as with Sasuke's training and Uchiha heritage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Gained Sharingan at just the right times in battle
    How is that different then Naruto's magically appearing abilities? At least we were aware that Sasuke had the potential to have the Sharingan.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Cursed Seal handed to him by Orochimaru
    With a 90% chance of killing him, and still required him to later train in order to really make use of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Rapid increase in speed equal to Lee who trained endlessly to attain
    Sasuke trained over a month to gain said speed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    MS shoved into his eyes by his self-sacrificing brother, abilities just pop up when necessary in battle
    Gained MS after an exhausting battle and three years training just to match said brother. And again, no different from Naruto's magically appearing abilities and techniques.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Kuchiyose out of absolutely nowhere
    The hawk perhaps, but it was made clear where the snake summoning came from.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    EMS, also had pretty much nothing to do with him
    Didn't accept EMS until after several major battles that left him on the edge of blindness.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Sealing technique used to bring back Orochimaru, that just came out of nowhere
    Not really, since it had been established that Sasuke had did a bunch of research on him in preparation for taking Orochimaru out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    Naruto being the Kyuubi's Jinchuuriki is the foundation of the manga, and KB was foreshadowed by Mizuki telling Naruto to learn a jutsu from the scroll to pass his faux exam
    Right, foundation. That's not the same as foreshadowing. The introduction of it just before with the express purpose of learning it doesn't exactly fall under this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    Yes it is, since Naruto didn't randomly used Rasengan, but had to train 2 weeks prior, and was still showed beforehand. You yourself said MS was foreshadowed by Itachi
    I don't think you understand foreshadowing. Foreshadowing is the implication that something may happen later on. We saw the debut chapter that Naruto would learn it. Not the same as MS, which we know about hundreds of chapters before Sasuke gained it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    Naruto was gonna create an unique Ninjutsu, and then the whole Elemental arc. If that isn't foreshadowing
    The goal was combining wind nature with the Rasengan, which equals the Fuuton Rasengan, as I admitted. There was no foreshadowing of a technique beyond that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    Sage Mode abilities were showed by Jiraiya, Naruto's master, and then there is Fukasaku proposing it to him
    Same as with the Rasengan. There was no hints that Naruto could possibly gain it til Fukasaku outright ask him to learn it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    Like I said, he already had said cloak, so this isn't a point of foreshadowing. The battle with Haku and later Gaara's showcase would probably be the foreshadowing of a cloak.

    Like I said, that was in reference to Kirabi's own relationship with the Hachibi. Had Naruto develop like him, then it would count, but he didn't. Where is the implication that Naruto's cloak would be different then it was before and from every other Jinchuuriki we've seen? Or that it would gain a bunch of abilities?

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post

  10. #68
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted ninjabot's Avatar
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    Re: Was things really necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility
    I disagree. Every ability that Naruto's shown has been the result of his training, or is a result of Kurama:
    You could've erased the "training" part and just left Kurama. Naruto, who "don't think too good", managed to overcome his ineptitude thanks to Kurama's boost in stamina aswell as healing abilities. Why comprehend things when you can just do it over and over without having to rest?

    Rasengan? He was able to completely heal from exhausting training after one night's sleep, allowing him to train more than the average ninja could. FRS? Kurama's chakra along with Naruto's Uzumaki chakra allowed him to use the KB training method. Gaining KB in the first place? That shit was never explained. He was just bad at it... until he wasn't. And it came out of nowhere. Sage Mode? He sat still. How the hell impressive is it to sit still and occasionally get hit in the head?

    Point being: If all Naruto had to become worthwhile as a ninja was his own willpower and mental abilities... well, just imagine it.

    Quote Quote:
    Sasuke, on the other hand:

    Gained Sharingan at just the right times in battle
    Not everyone can gain the Sharingan. It requires great potential in the person that gains it, aswell as a death defying event. Near death experience>repetition.

    Quote Quote:
    Cursed Seal handed to him by Orochimaru
    1 in 10 ninja survive Curse Seal being given to them and only those of strong will can gain it or master it. He also overcame the Curse Seal's body corrosion and mind control (loss of soul to Orochimaru). He gained those abilities because of the training he had up until that point.

    Quote Quote:
    Rapid increase in speed equal to Lee who trained endlessly to attain
    Sasuke didn't train to gain Lee-like speed? He didn't memorize his movements and then push his body to master Gouken in record time inorder to match Lee's speed? Is that what you're saying? Your argument was supposed to be that Sasuke doesn't gain his increases from training... so you bring up what was easily his harshest training regemine as proof? He did it at the same time/before learning Chidori! How can you give him props for learning Chidori, but ignore the speed increase that was gained specifically to increase the lethality of his Chidori? Especially considering the fact he was incredibly fast to begin with.

    Quote Quote:
    MS shoved into his eyes by his self-sacrificing brother, abilities just pop up when necessary in battle
    Once again MS was gained after a lifetime of torment and ass kicking, aswell as a heart wrenching revelation that he had killed the only person to truly love him unconditionally. Gaining the MS cost Sasuke his sanity. Amaterasu? He had to die twice to obtain. Susanoo? Another near death experience at the hands of Raikage followed. The gradual blindness also more than payed for the powerup he gained. It's not training, but you'll never successfully downplay the MS as a free powerup.

    Quote Quote:
    Kuchiyose out of absolutely nowhere
    And... now you're reaching. He's trainined by a ninja with snakes... then he uses snakes and that's crazy? I'm gonna go out on a limb and assume you're referring to the hawk. Which doesn't matter, because the only difference between him summoning the hawks and summoning the snakes is that he was using Orochimaru's blood before, so he didn't actually need a blood pact with snakes. With the hawks however we see that he actually uses his own blood and thus, the hawks can be considered his true summoning pact.

    Quote Quote:
    EMS, also had pretty much nothing to do with him
    I'll give you this one. You have succesfully made A point.

    Quote Quote:
    Sealing technique used to bring back Orochimaru, that just came out of nowhere
    This is also grasping for straws. It was the same as the sealing technique Kakashi taught him, (hence showing him remembering the jutsu) but in reverse. Or is it an asspull that a ninja who knows how to seal something would know how to unseal it? Hell, he even told us when fighting Kabuto that he studied Orochimaru. Why does that not include his jutsu and ways that he could revive himself?

    @Uchiha_Blood: Naruto never had to train to access the Kyuubi's chakra. It was litterally as simple as giving in, or getting angry. Sure, he wouldn't have control. But he'd be the most powerful ninja in any fight he was currently in and all he'd have to do is say "Okay Kyuubi. Go crazy." Rikudou King didn't mean that he didnt' train to gain Kyuubi's chakra. He meant he didnt' have to. Which 100% accurate.

    ---------- Post added at 02:05 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:53 AM ----------

    EDIT: You know what I just realized? I'm going about this the wrong way. Look at Naruto and Sasuke's skill, intelligence, and physical abilities before Sharingan or Kyuubi came into play. Naruto and Sasuke both trained extremely hard (Naruto for recognition from the village, Sasuke for recognition from his father) but who was the clear superior? Faster, smarter, more versatile, and more lethal, all from training done prior to even gaining the Sharingan?

    Sasuke. And in the end, that's all that matters, because while the Sharingan's abilities come due to a dire need in the heat of battle, Sasuke's ninjutsu expertise, katon mastery, taijutsu skill, shurikenjutsu, archery... all of that can't be blamed on genetics. He and Naruto trained from potentially the same age and Sasuke railroaded him. So yes, he trained. And it was that effort, that will, that necessity that created the gap between them that would not shrink.

  11. #69
    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: Was things really necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Sasuke's Sharingan abilities didn't develop because of his training, it developed, conveniently, in the middle of battle. Naruto's help from Kurama wasn't by convenient chance, it was self-preservation on the part of the legendary beast, the one sought by many individuals and pretty much the basis of the plot of the manga.

    For all the negative 'consequences' of the CS, Sasuke didn't seemed to be bothered by any of them when it mattered.
    How is that any different from Naruto and Kyuubi? Or rasengan? Or FRS? In Naruto's case, once he started using the Kyuubi he had the upper hand or was saved tremendously, while Sasuke still had some degree of trouble. Sasuke still couldn't beat Haku and went down while Naruto was able to melt the ice (?) and whack Haku easily. It was convenient since Kyuubi wasn't in any danger against Haku, Neji, or Orochimaru. Even if it was, Kyuubi should have know it would be revived. If Minato knew, then why didn't the Kyuubi? That in itself makes no sense.

    Sasuke was bothered against Naruto at Valley of the End. After the timeskip though, I'll give you that. But it's no different with Naruto - he wasn't bothered by Kyuubi's chakra after Minato suppressed it during the fight with Pain. Naruto was still walking and moving when he was hunting for Sasuke along with Team 7, even if he did collapse a lot. None of them put him in danger as far as we know, since he was even ready to fight back after Sasuke speedblitz held him.

    Even in Part I, Naruto had no danger whatsoever from the Kyuubi chakra. The Cursed Seal however presented some danger since it suppressed Sasuke's chakra (?) and made it hard for him to use Sharingan.

    Quote Quote:
    He couldn't keep the speed up for a long time, but he still managed to drastically increase his physical condition in a very short period of time. As for Naruto, he has a monster inside of him that increases his physical capabilities, just like every other Jinchuuriki, this was established from early on. And is one of the many reasons Jinchuurikis are thought of as weapons.
    But a month is enough. Naruto was able to infuse wind chakra with his own after a week or two of training, when it took even the genius Sasuke about a week. Sasuke naturally enhanced his speed, while Naruto's speed isn't his own when enhanced by Kyuubi. I don't recall any bijuu but Kyuubi and I guess Hachibi increasing any kind of physical capabilities of their host - the Ichibi just gave Gaara ability to use sand and automatic sand defense. Gaara didn't even need any practice, the defense was automatic.

    Quote Quote:
    Naruto always had Kurama, and he had to train to master the use of his chakra. We've seen quite a bit of Naruto attempting to control the chakra, from Jiraiya's training to Bee's. Sasuke just mastered the MS techniques with ease, and they popped up when necessary during battles. And Sasuke fighting for his MS s a joke, it was a farce, Itachi was always intending to give Sasuke his eyes.
    Doesn't make it his own. Naruto was born without Kyuubi and only got it because of Minato's last minute decision. Otherwise you might as well say Taka is part of Sasuke's power.

    Naruto didn't master Kyuubi's chakra until the war. All Kyuubi did was lend him chakra without tryin to manipulate Naruto (probably because of the seal), which Naruto could use however he wanted. It healed him without cost and boosted his physical abilities without a problem. And Sasuke didn't master MS techniques with ease - he still had to test it out. It's no different from Naruto and Kyuubi chakra, or how it pops up when necessary during battles.

    Even if Itachi meant to die, Sasuke still fought hard and with everything he had. Sasuke was pushed to his limits. While it is true Itachi would have beat him if serious, it's also false to say Sasuke had it easy when all signs prove otherwise. Itachi was probably the only fight where Sasuke wasn't in a fight for his life, although it certainly looked like it.

    Quote Quote:
    The reality is that Naruto's power was established from the inception of the manga, and even so he had to work at it. Sasuke's power-ups were just made up along the way to allow him to keep up.
    He never had to work for Kyuubi's chakra. the only thing he had to work for in Part I was calling upon it at will. When he stole the chakra from Kyuubi, that's the only time he ever had to work on mastering the Kyuubi's chakra. Otherwise he got it for free and now, without any kind of price to pay.

    Sasuke's power-ups weren't made up, they were foreshadowed. Itachi's Mangekyo, him using Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi, Sasuke being said to have stronger eyes than Itachi, and etc were foreshadows. Kyuubi turning 180 and being Naruto's butt buddy was not foreshadowed, not it happening in one chapter anyway. FRS was never foreshadowed either.

    Training to access Kyuubi's chakra when he wanted to use it, not when he needed to. Back when the seal was actually strong and Kyuubi couldn't control Naruto.

    He still didn't master the chakra, but still got saved when necessary.

    He didn't really need to train much with Chakra mode abilities other than fine-touching stuff. Bijuudama could only be trained in full bijuu mode, and when Naruto did it for the first time successfully, he was able to do a bijuudama with no problem. He never trained for bijuudama in bijuu mode, and every time he tried in his normal, chakra mode, it kept failing.

    Still got owned by Haku, still got owned by Lee, had trouble with Orochimaru, and had trouble with Yoroi even though it was Sharingan's ability that allowed him to win quickly. And, we never see Sasuke train other than flashback because he's not the main character, which is why we've seen mainly Naruto train in Part I and II. And it didn't automatically evolve, it evolved from emotion, and after Naruto began to dominate with a power that's not his own.
    Mangekyo wasn't free since he still had to train his power. None of the MS jutsu he used the first time were good, he was slowly experimenting. It's no different from Naruto using Sage Mode and practicing his jutsu like FRS or rasengan. We actually see him train for FRS in SM because he is the main character. And since MS can't be trained, Sasuke can only use it in fights. And since he IS a genius, he shouldn't have major problems.
    EMS isn't entirely free, since he only accepted it because his own eyes were being sealed. Even then, EMS still requires knowledge of jutsu to use. Kakashi had Mangekyo for at least a decade but he never used it until the timeskip, probably because he didn't know he could use Mangekyo. Same would apply with Sasuke - if he didn't know what jutsu to use, he wouldn't be able to use it. Naruto didnt' know about the Kyuubi but was still able to use its power.



    Quote Quote:
    Kyuubi's chakra initially wounded Naruto's body, shortening his life-span, while, with Chakra Mode, he risked killing himself.
    In both occasions the risks were high even if they were useless since we all know neither Naruto nor Sasuke would kill themselves with that
    It didn't do any damage until the fourth tail. Even then, the Uzumaki trait would have likely made the harm that Kyuubi's chakra did meaningless, since Kushina was apparently able to survive at least five minutes after getting Kyuubi extracted from her, something that no one was able to do. How did he risk killing himself? Kyuubi stopped taking Naruto's chakra for some reason, and it was Naruto's own fault since he knew better. Just like how it was Sasuke's own fault for spamming his MS when he knew the risks.



    Quote Quote:
    What's worse, fighting Kyuubi or fighting a fight you are already planned to win?
    Also see above the differences between Naruto and Sasuke's "training"
    Considering Naruto had help against Kyuubi, and that he wasn't up against one of the toughest enemies, I'd say Sasuke still had it worse. Look at their conditions at the end of battle. Sasuke was pushed to the edge, he was still challenged. No different from Naruto vs. Pain.



    Quote Quote:
    Please tell me you aren't serious
    no different from people saying Naruto paid the price for Kyuubi with his bad childhood.


    Quote Quote:
    -Naruto being the Kyuubi's Jinchuuriki is the foundation of the manga, and KB was foreshadowed by Mizuki telling Naruto to learn a jutsu from the scroll to pass his faux exam
    -Yes it is, since Naruto didn't randomly used Rasengan, but had to train 2 weeks prior, and was still showed beforehand. You yourself said MS was foreshadowed by Itachi
    -Naruto was gonna create an unique Ninjutsu, and then the whole Elemental arc. If that isn't foreshadowing
    Kage bunshin was never foreshadowed by Mizuki, unless he clearly said Naruto could master kage bunshin by usin the scroll. The only possible way any foreshadow of kage bunshin existed was when Naruto failed bunshin. A jutsu from the scroll could have been anything.

    Naruto worked hard to use and master rasengan. I dunno how anyone can disagree with that. the only way Kyuubi helped was when it helped Naruto recover faster after he fainted, the day before the end of the week.

    The elemental arc foreshadowed fuuton: rasengan, which is what Naruto used against Kakashi in the flashback. It never foreshadowed fuuton: rasenshuriken, which despite its power actually had a drawback, like Mangekyo. Sadly, both FRS and Mangekyo lost its drawback. :<

  12. #70
    MangaHelper MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Rikudou King's Avatar
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    Re: Was things really necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by marshall313 View Post
    Sasuke is indeed more smarter than naruto. But he never gained his power through his hard work or for being a genius. He gained almost of his power through free upgrade.

    And now, naruto trained his butt to control the kyubi's chakra and he make kurama his bff by fighting the mazou and freeing son goku.

    But for sasuke, his latest free upgrade is the scroll that suigetsu found. And now that he was with orochimaru, sasuke will gain again another free power.

    So there's no mistake about it, sasuke is a genius but he's also the king of free powerups.
    Never? He gained all his powers through hard work. Perhaps not always directly and on purpose, but hard work always accompanied him growing stronger. To even awaken/gain the Sharingan and it's variations, Sasuke had to go through life-threatening battles. And the only reason Sasuke's recent strength has been connected to his doujutsu is because Sasuke was already an incredibly skilled ninja beforehand and thus didn't have much room elsewhere to grow. He didn't need an all-around boost like Naruto did to hang with the current power tier.

    And Naruto hardly trained his butt off to control the Kyuubi, unless you count fighting it as training. And if you do count that, then you would likewise have to count all the times Sasuke battled to prefect his own abilities the same, thus mooting your argument. Regardless, Naruto did nothing to change the Kyuubi around to his way of things, so how is his current condition due to training?

    Also, calling something a free upgrade when you don't even know what it will lead too is foolish.

  13. #71
    MangaHelper 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Impossibility's Avatar
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    Re: Was things really necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    The Rasen-Shuriken came out of nowhere, as the arc started out as a means to combine wind nature with Rasengan. With Sage Mode, Naruto was naturally gifted and suddenly thought up a way to overcome it's weakness just before his fight with Pain. There was training up to three tails, which still cause Naruto to lose some control, and after that Naruto was never effected by the supposed weaknesses due to the Kyuubi having a magical change of heart right off the bat.

    Making Jinchuurikis had nothing to do with inherited abilities, but making the Bijuus controllable for battle. Hatred sensing and the ability to turn Mokuton to trees came out of nowhere. In addition, you clearly missed what the original discussion was about, which was over the foreshadowing of them learning/gaining abilities.

    How is that different then Naruto's magically appearing abilities? At least we were aware that Sasuke had the potential to have the Sharingan.

    With a 90% chance of killing him, and still required him to later train in order to really make use of it.

    Sasuke trained over a month to gain said speed.

    Gained MS after an exhausting battle and three years training just to match said brother. And again, no different from Naruto's magically appearing abilities and techniques.

    The hawk perhaps, but it was made clear where the snake summoning came from.

    Not really, since it had been established that Sasuke had did a bunch of research on him in preparation for taking Orochimaru out.

    Right, foundation. That's not the same as foreshadowing. The introduction of it just before with the express purpose of learning it doesn't exactly fall under this.
    First thing, this is the comment, made by you, that brought me into this discussion.

    Quote Quote:
    Naruto has clearly gained more stuff off the fly, without any hints that he was on the path to gaining them.
    Now, the Rasen Shuriken didn't come out of nowhere, it was the combination of nature to shape formation. And there was quite a bit about the history of the Rasengan, and the difficulty of joining it with nature affinities. We may not have known the resulting technique, but there was no doubt about Naruto adding wind to his Rasengan. As for Sage Mode, it was foreshadowed, discussed, and trained extensively before Naruto's use of it. Jiraiya used SM, Ma & Pa came to get Naruto to teach him the mode, he trained for quite some time, and utilised his ability to create clones with his massive chakra endurance to aid in the completion of the technique. I don't see how this is problematic, it would be akin to me complaining about Sasuke's ability to use Chidori, because he has his Sharingan to make it effective. Individuals have natural abilities. As for Kurama, Naruto didn't suddenly learn how to utilise his chakra. Naruto's training to use his chakra began with Jiraiya's training years ago. And there have been references to this control quite frequently ever since. We've also seen the relationship between Kurama and Naruto evolve. We saw Naruto's training at the hand of Bee to further his use of Kurama's chakra, and we saw some of the motivations behind Kurama's change of heart, including his rocky history with Naruto's current opponents. Kurama's cheerleading might be ridiculous, but Kurama's excitement levels were irrelevant to Naruto's abilities, once he had agreed to support him.

    As for you reference to Jinchuurikis being made solely to control Bijuus. Well, these bijuus offer abilities to the ones in which they are sealed, something that was shown since the introduction of Gaara. We've seen each jin have unique abilities. Now, I might be inclined to agree with you that the whole tree thing is nonsensical, at best. However, it wasn't unexpected that Naruto would gain some sort of abilities after he had managed control over the Kyuubi chakra, everyone else had cool or absolutely ridiculous abilities.

    Could you point out these magically appearing abilities? Everything Naruto has showed in battle has been foreshadowed, or trained prior to battles. Just because Sasuke had the potential to develop the Sahringan, doesn't mean it should just pop up when necessary.

    As for your 90%, I guess that just makes Sasuke really lucky. As for training it, no. Sasuke didn't train his CS before his use of it. He tried to suppress it, mostly. And then in the battle against Naruto, he was suddenly using it very efficiently, and up popped his CS 2 when it was required.

    Sasuke trained for a month to gain speed. Really? I'm pretty sure some of that time was used to train Chidori. And using it exhausted him, so I'm not sure about him using that time much to train his speed. And it took Lee far longer with complete focus on his physicality to achieve such a speed. So yes, that speed was a gift.

    As for the MS, he trained for three years with Orochimaru. He had no training with the MS. So I don't see how that training was relevant. His fight was a farce, Itachi had every intention of giving Sasuke his eyes. It was also during this battle that Sasuke revealed Kirin, which was a technique that really came out of nowhere. Especially when considering that the technique requires specific conditions to be utilised, and those conditions just happened to be available.

    As for kuchiyose, I was referencing the random hawk that just popped out of nowhere.

    As for his research into eliminating Orochimaru, I don't see how that technique would've been even remotely useful outside of those very specific circumstance, and Sasuke having the desire to bring back Orochimaru, which is sort of at odds for the purpose of the research. Add in that flashback, and I'm going to stick with that tech being granted rather conveniently.

    As I said before, Naruto's abilities were foreshadowed, and trained, extensively before their usage. Sasuke's tech were just gifted and granted as necessary for his immediate survival.

    @ninjabot

    I would respond more extensively, if I hadn't just written all of the above, which I think addresses some of your comments. But I'd just like to comment on something specifically.

    Quote Quote:
    Point being: If all Naruto had to become worthwhile as a ninja was his own willpower and mental abilities... well, just imagine it.
    None of the top combatants use just willpower and mental abilities to get to the pinnacle of the ninja world. They have bijuus, or kekkai genkais, or rare natural abilities such as sensing or massive chakra endurance. If you take Kurama and Naruto's chakra endurance from Naruto, you'd have to take away the other bijuus, Sasuke and the other Uchiha's Sharingan, Rinnegan, Mokuton, and almost every other OP technique or ability in the manga. Your statement points outs the main character, but ignores everyone else including the individual you're defending.

    Also your reference to the sealing tech. Kakashi didn't teach him that technique. The flashback just shows Kakashi's use of the technique. Nothing more. Maybe your mind just attempts to fill in the blanks about Sasuke on its own, but the manga doesn't.

    @M3J

    I think I've covered most of your comments above.

    As for your comments about Naruto not having the Kyuubi at birth, I'm not sure how that's relevant to the discussion.
    Last edited by Impossibility; November 30, 2012 at 06:00 AM.

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  15. #72
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member marshall313's Avatar
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    Re: Was things really necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    Never? He gained all his powers through hard work. Perhaps not always directly and on purpose, but hard work always accompanied him growing stronger. To even awaken/gain the Sharingan and it's variations, Sasuke had to go through life-threatening battles. And the only reason Sasuke's recent strength has been connected to his doujutsu is because Sasuke was already an incredibly skilled ninja beforehand and thus didn't have much room elsewhere to grow. He didn't need an all-around boost like Naruto did to hang with the current power tier.

    And Naruto hardly trained his butt off to control the Kyuubi, unless you count fighting it as training. And if you do count that, then you would likewise have to count all the times Sasuke battled to prefect his own abilities the same, thus mooting your argument. Regardless, Naruto did nothing to change the Kyuubi around to his way of things, so how is his current condition due to training?

    Also, calling something a free upgrade when you don't even know what it will lead too is foolish.
    Hardly trained his butt off to control the kyubi? Jiraiya trained him for two years to control that power right? And controlling the kyubi's power is entirely different from perfecting the sharingan's power. Jiraiya almost lost his life and naruto's life span has been shortened.

    And naruto would be dead if the kyubi defeated him in their last fight. So basically, naruto got the kyubi's abilities by taming/fighting him by life and death situation. That's entirely different on how sasuke gained his MS/EMS. Because itachi already planned that fight. Sasuke's life was never threatened by itachi.

    And naruto did something to change the kyubi, does the kyubi stated that naruto is different from hashirama, madara, mito and kushina? Naruto's personality and how he treated the other bijuu/s change the kyubi's heart.

    ---------- Post added at 08:32 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:13 AM ----------

    And sasuke never gained all of his power by hard work. Just like someone said,

    The curse seal has been easily handed to him by orochimaru.
    All of orochimaru's power was easily handed to him. ( after all, orochimaru wants sasuke's body, so oro doesn't need to make sasuke work his butt off to learned his jutsus)
    The MS/EMS was also easily handed to him by itachi.
    When i claimed that minato knows Kage Bunshin, They said that I'm wrong.
    When i claimed that minato is a sage mode user, they said that I'm delusional.
    When i claimed that minato can extend his chakra arms and can activate BM, they said that I'm ridiculous.
    Seriously, Who's "wrong", "delusional" and "ridiculous" now?

  16. #73
    MH Senpai 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Uchiha_Blood's Avatar
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    Re: Was things really necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    Right, foundation. That's not the same as foreshadowing. The introduction of it just before with the express purpose of learning it doesn't exactly fall under this.
    How can you foreshadow things if they appear in the very first chapter ?

    Quote Quote:
    I don't think you understand foreshadowing. Foreshadowing is the implication that something may happen later on. We saw the debut chapter that Naruto would learn it. Not the same as MS, which we know about hundreds of chapters before Sasuke gained it.
    1 chapter or 100, the very fact that Jiriaya showed a jutsu that Naruto would successively learn is foreshadowing.
    Naruto didn't randomly pop up with a Rasengan in hand either, meaning its not a power he obtained "on the fly"

    Quote Quote:
    The goal was combining wind nature with the Rasengan, which equals the Fuuton Rasengan, as I admitted. There was no foreshadowing of a technique beyond that.
    Kakashi said an unique, personal ninjutsu, Fuuton: Rasengan was just the middle step to do it, proof of that is Naruto and Yamato continuing to work on it despite Naruto completing Fuuton: Rasengan ( as showed when Naruto completed it and destroying Kakashi's own Rasengan ).
    Wind Rasengan is a Rasengan with an element, something others can theorically do, Rasen Shuriken is Naruto's own jutsu.

    Quote Quote:
    Same as with the Rasengan. There was no hints that Naruto could possibly gain it til Fukasaku outright ask him to learn it.
    When MS was introduced, it was said by Itachi how it was obtainable?
    No, it was said much later. Sage Mode is the exact same thing

    Quote Quote:
    Like I said, he already had said cloak, so this isn't a point of foreshadowing. The battle with Haku and later Gaara's showcase would probably be the foreshadowing of a cloak.
    That is V1 cloak, and Naruto didn't control the transformation, since, as we saw, Kyuubi's influence was stronger.
    Naruto had to separate the will from the chakra

    Quote Quote:
    Like I said, that was in reference to Kirabi's own relationship with the Hachibi. Had Naruto develop like him, then it would count, but he didn't. Where is the implication that Naruto's cloak would be different then it was before and from every other Jinchuuriki we've seen? Or that it would gain a bunch of abilities?
    It isn't something unique to Killer Bee, its how Bijuu Mode works:
    to use it, you have to be in sync with the Bijuu, as proved by Kyuubi saying that their link isn't perfect, so they can't mantain the mode for long. Considering Bijuu Mode involves Naruto and Kyuubi molding their chakra together, its a given that, to use it, you need full cooperation.
    Hachibi's words only confirm it

    Quote Quote:


    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    Training to access Kyuubi's chakra when he wanted to use it, not when he needed to. Back when the seal was actually strong and Kyuubi couldn't control Naruto.

    He still didn't master the chakra, but still got saved when necessary.

    He didn't really need to train much with Chakra mode abilities other than fine-touching stuff. Bijuudama could only be trained in full bijuu mode, and when Naruto did it for the first time successfully, he was able to do a bijuudama with no problem. He never trained for bijuudama in bijuu mode, and every time he tried in his normal, chakra mode, it kept failing.
    Doesn't mean he didn't have to work for it, since, without Jiraiya's training, he would be a berserker like with Haku

    So him training but not mastering the chakra means it wasn't earned?
    He trained for it, Kyuubi's chakra was just too difficult to control, expecially considering how much hate Naruto kept in his body.

    He still needed to train, as we saw when Naruto got stuck after blitzing Kisame Chakra Mode needed training to control, from chakrarms to Bijuudama.
    Both weren't obtained "on the fly", the guy worked for it.


    Quote Quote:
    Still got owned by Haku, still got owned by Lee, had trouble with Orochimaru, and had trouble with Yoroi even though it was Sharingan's ability that allowed him to win quickly. And, we never see Sasuke train other than flashback because he's not the main character, which is why we've seen mainly Naruto train in Part I and II. And it didn't automatically evolve, it evolved from emotion, and after Naruto began to dominate with a power that's not his own.
    Mangekyo wasn't free since he still had to train his power. None of the MS jutsu he used the first time were good, he was slowly experimenting. It's no different from Naruto using Sage Mode and practicing his jutsu like FRS or rasengan. We actually see him train for FRS in SM because he is the main character. And since MS can't be trained, Sasuke can only use it in fights. And since he IS a genius, he shouldn't have major problems.
    EMS isn't entirely free, since he only accepted it because his own eyes were being sealed. Even then, EMS still requires knowledge of jutsu to use. Kakashi had Mangekyo for at least a decade but he never used it until the timeskip, probably because he didn't know he could use Mangekyo. Same would apply with Sasuke - if he didn't know what jutsu to use, he wouldn't be able to use it. Naruto didnt' know about the Kyuubi but was still able to use its power.
    The point isn't that Sasuke lost, is that he was handed just as much as Naruto got handed.
    Also lol at Sasuke earning the Sharingan stages or attacks, he actually didn't, as I showed you:
    emotional situations are a given in the ninja business ( just saying, in the Sasuke retrieval arc, if everyone were Uchihas everyone would awaken their sharingan ) and he didn't train neither for Amaterasu nor for Susano'o, as he discovered both when he was fighting Bee.
    As for EMS not being free, its like saying Bijuu Mode isn't free because you need Kyuubi's cooperation. Sasuke's EMS is his own, meaning he doesn't have to discover much that he already doesn't know, he never showed any new power, only its old ones.
    So no, he didn't earn EMS nor he did train for it

    Quote Quote:
    It didn't do any damage until the fourth tail. Even then, the Uzumaki trait would have likely made the harm that Kyuubi's chakra did meaningless, since Kushina was apparently able to survive at least five minutes after getting Kyuubi extracted from her, something that no one was able to do. How did he risk killing himself? Kyuubi stopped taking Naruto's chakra for some reason, and it was Naruto's own fault since he knew better. Just like how it was Sasuke's own fault for spamming his MS when he knew the risks.
    Valley of the End, 1 tail, Sasuke said to Naruto pretty clearly that the cloak was harming him.
    Just like when you are in Sage Mode you constantly risk to turn into stone by losing control of Nature chakra. Do we believe Naruto will die for overusing that crappy cloak or Sage Mode?
    No, same thing with Sasuke's Cursed Seal and blindness

    Quote Quote:
    Considering Naruto had help against Kyuubi, and that he wasn't up against one of the toughest enemies, I'd say Sasuke still had it worse. Look at their conditions at the end of battle. Sasuke was pushed to the edge, he was still challenged. No different from Naruto vs. Pain.
    Naruto had help initially and to overcome his hate, should he wanted to kill Kyuubi instead of taking its chakra, he would've followed up to the FRS that stopped Kyuubi in its tracks.
    And no, even half a fight against the Kyuubi is many times worse than a full fight with a sick Itachi that can't kill you.
    Even a full powered Itachi would die from a fight with the Kyuubi

    Quote Quote:
    no different from people saying Naruto paid the price for Kyuubi with his bad childhood.
    I think earning a new power while not being blind is a better deal than having a crappy childhood

    Quote Quote:
    Kage bunshin was never foreshadowed by Mizuki, unless he clearly said Naruto could master kage bunshin by usin the scroll. The only possible way any foreshadow of kage bunshin existed was when Naruto failed bunshin. A jutsu from the scroll could have been anything.

    Naruto worked hard to use and master rasengan. I dunno how anyone can disagree with that. the only way Kyuubi helped was when it helped Naruto recover faster after he fainted, the day before the end of the week.

    The elemental arc foreshadowed fuuton: rasengan, which is what Naruto used against Kakashi in the flashback. It never foreshadowed fuuton: rasenshuriken, which despite its power actually had a drawback, like Mangekyo. Sadly, both FRS and Mangekyo lost its drawback. :<
    Mizuki said that he needed to learn a jutsu from the Forbidden Scroll, where did Naruto found KB?

    If the goal was to create a Fuuton:Rasengan, why didn't they stop after seeing Naruto obliterating Kakashi's Sharingan with his own?
    As I said earlier, Wind Rasengan was just the middle step in that training, just like element training was the first step

  17. #74
    MangaHelper MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Rikudou King's Avatar
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    Re: Was things really necessary?

    Spoiler: Impossibility;3182571 show


    Quote Originally Posted by marshall313 View Post
    Hardly trained his butt off to control the kyubi? Jiraiya trained him for two years to control that power right? And controlling the kyubi's power is entirely different from perfecting the sharingan's power. Jiraiya almost lost his life and naruto's life span has been shortened.
    Yeah, nearly three years and Naruto still couldn't fully control himself with two and three tails, much less beyond that. Sasuke has nearly lost his life several time training his Sharingan, which is clearly different then some far off consequence that is already partially fixed by being an Uzumaki.

    Quote Originally Posted by marshall313 View Post
    And naruto would be dead if the kyubi defeated him in their last fight. So basically, naruto got the kyubi's abilities by taming/fighting him by life and death situation. That's entirely different on how sasuke gained his MS/EMS. Because itachi already planned that fight. Sasuke's life was never threatened by itachi.
    Interesting you ignore the fact that Naruto had both Kirabi and Kushina helping him in that battle. You also seem to ignore the fact that to actually get to Itachi, Sasuke had to fight two other S rank ninjas attempting to take his life beforehand, followed by several more fights to fully awaken it's powers.

    Quote Originally Posted by marshall313 View Post
    And naruto did something to change the kyubi, does the kyubi stated that naruto is different from hashirama, madara, mito and kushina? Naruto's personality and how he treated the other bijuu/s change the kyubi's heart.
    Except that's a load, since just a day before the Kyuubi was attempting to kill Naruto. The Kyuubi suddenly changing a day/couple of hours after being sealed was ridiculous and had nothing to do with Naruto's efforts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    How can you foreshadow things if they appear in the very first chapter ?
    You can't, which is why they don't count.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    1 chapter or 100, the very fact that Jiriaya showed a jutsu that Naruto would successively learn is foreshadowing.
    Naruto didn't randomly pop up with a Rasengan in hand either, meaning its not a power he obtained "on the fly"
    The introduction and Jiraiya wanting Naruto to learn it was on the fly. How is it foreshadowing if it's outright stated and shown right before?

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    Kakashi said an unique, personal ninjutsu, Fuuton: Rasengan was just the middle step to do it, proof of that is Naruto and Yamato continuing to work on it despite Naruto completing Fuuton: Rasengan ( as showed when Naruto completed it and destroying Kakashi's own Rasengan ).
    Wind Rasengan is a Rasengan with an element, something others can theorically do, Rasen Shuriken is Naruto's own jutsu.
    No, it wasn't just some middle step. There was no such indication of that. The Rasengan was already suppose to have the prefect shape, and adding a nature to it was suppose to complete it. That was what was said going into it. And theoretically, the same would be true of the Rasen-Shuriken too, considering it doesn't involve anything unique.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    When MS was introduced, it was said by Itachi how it was obtainable?
    No, it was said much later. Sage Mode is the exact same thing
    What? MS and Sage Mode are quite different. MS was connected to Sasuke, whereas there was no connect between Naruto and Sage Mode. Anyway, how to gain MS was still stated long before Sasuke actually managed to gain it, even if it came after the first appearance of MS.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    That is V1 cloak, and Naruto didn't control the transformation, since, as we saw, Kyuubi's influence was stronger.
    Naruto had to separate the will from the chakra
    Naruto was stated to have control over the three initial forms. Regardless, that was the cloak form that was foreshadowed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    It isn't something unique to Killer Bee, its how Bijuu Mode works:
    to use it, you have to be in sync with the Bijuu, as proved by Kyuubi saying that their link isn't perfect, so they can't mantain the mode for long. Considering Bijuu Mode involves Naruto and Kyuubi molding their chakra together, its a given that, to use it, you need full cooperation.
    Hachibi's words only confirm it
    I didn't say it was unique to Kirabi and you're missing the point. The problem isn't over the cooperating, which has it's own issues, it's that once Naruto took the Kyuubi's chakra, he developed a Bijuu cloak and abilities completely different from any other Jinchuuriki despite going the same route as them that was never hinted at. Being a prefect Jinchuuriki shouldn't have changed the cloaks appearance, as we were shown with Kirabi.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    Last edited by Rikudou King; November 30, 2012 at 03:09 PM.

  18. #75
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member shahdan's Avatar
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    Re: Was things really necessary?

    Let's get one thing straight; Naruto had Kurama since birth or as soon as he was born, together with a free doze of almost bottomless chakra, rapid healing, enhanced speed, and reflexes. Let's not bring hard work into this as this alone is hilarious enough.

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