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Thread: Was things really necessary?

  1. #16
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
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    Re: Was things really necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zasz View Post
    Well, if the Sharingan wasn't like it is now, Naruto's story would pretty much non-existent.
    Having said this, some powers of this eye are quite uber, but I think that what "ruined" the manga is the transplant-thingy; seriously, there are more Hashirama's cells than people in the Narutoverse.
    An average human has about 100 trillions of cells. So that was already true when we only had Yamato
    It's better to say there're more Hashi-cells than cells in Narutoverse
    REVOLUTION! FREEDOM!

    Quote Originally Posted by Bromamura View Post
    Meh can't have Bleach without fan raging, makes it fun.

  2. #17
    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: Was things really necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by 3c View Post
    I agree, saying that the Sharingan made everything else increase is a major flaw. The truth is that the Sharingan was upgraded (Susano'o) to keep up with Kishi's ridiculous power increases. The simple explanation for Susano'o, which is the ruin of the Sharingan to be frank, is that Kishi needed to implement a technique that could stand up to the destructive powers of Jinchuuriki (Naruto vs Sasuke in the future) as well as other increases in other characters. Susano'o is a convenient technique to eliminate almost any obstacle. Be it super fast characters or destructive techniques. I'll post more about this later, but Susano'o to me ruined a lot of the manga, and that's not the Sharingan's fault contrary to popular belief. It's the other way around, and it made it "necessary" for Kishi to introduce the broken non-Naruto'ish technique that is Susano'o.
    I don't think the introduction of Susano'o was the problem with Sharingan, but the fact that it could be used by other characters. Itachi being the only one to use Susano'o was much better than Sasuke or Madara having the ability to use it, in my opinion. Not only would it have remained unique, but there wouldn't be any need for powerful attacks. That said, even Susano'o was shown to have at least one weakness when Madara was ripped from it by Gaara.

    By giving Sasuke Susano'o, I think Kishi powered down Sasuke or made him dumber, as he did with Naruto after getting Kyuubi chakra. Besides, there's no symbolism in Susano'o being handed down, other than the image when we see Susano'o. Minato, Jiraiya, Kakashi, Naruto, and Konohamaru knowing rasengan is symbolic because of Minato teaching it to Kakashi, Jiraiya teaching it to Naruto, Kakashi teaching Naruto how to complete it, and Naruto teaching Konohamaru. And it's not overpowered, though a lot of characters know how to use rasengan. Susano'o however... was best suited for Itachi, who rarely ever used it unless he needed to.

    It's a shame, because the original Sharingan was much better for Sasuke. He would have turned it into a great tool with his intellect that not even Itachi could have. I don't think Sharingan or the powerups ruined the story entirely, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zasz View Post
    Well, if the Sharingan wasn't like it is now, Naruto's story would pretty much non-existent.
    Having said this, some powers of this eye are quite uber, but I think that what "ruined" the manga is the transplant-thingy; seriously, there are more Hashirama's cells than people in the Narutoverse.
    I don't think the story wouldn't have existed if Sharingan wasn't like it is. The story would still be there, but without the whole Senju/Uchiha thing. Sasuke still needed to kill Itachi, Akatsuki still needed the bijuu, and... well, not sure if Rinnegan would have been the focus either if not for Sharingan or Senju/Uchiha.

  3. #18
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted ninjabot's Avatar
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    Re: Was things really necessary?

    I agree that Susanoo ruined the Sharingan's mythos. Or more importantly, Sasuke's fighting style. He went from having divine speed (not my wording, Kishimoto put it in the databook) to being a sitting duck who just tanks blows rather than fighting tactically and speedily like he used to (which was the major draw that made him my favorite character in the first place).

  4. #19
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member shahdan's Avatar
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    Re: Was things really necessary?

    Taijutsu has suffered a lot in Naruto. Now this manga seems more like a DBZ cheap knock off in terms of powers and god-like stances than ninja-esque feats. I am disappointed in Kishimoto in this regard. While all Sharingen abilities are cool to look at, I can't help but feel that Kishimoto should have never introduced Jinchuriki's to begin with. It was that near unlimited amount of chakra, instant healing, enhanced resilience that made him push the characters further and further to match the tail beasts vessels. A poor plot device.

  5. #20
    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: Was things really necessary?

    Kishi changed far too much. He changed Sasuke's fighting style, he changed the whole concept of ninja, and he changed power. I mean, the only real ninja we have seen are Itachi, Minato, and Kakashi. And out of those three, only Minato and Kakashi embody true ninja because they're willing to kill when necessary. Instead of being ninja-centric, Kishi changed it into power levels, introducing stuff like Susano'o, bijuu bombs, and Kyuubi Mode rasengans. In my opinion, this either hurt or destroyed Naruto and Sasuke's characters because they don't need to use their brains as much when they can just easily oneshot most characters in a blink of an eye.

    I do think that Sharingan was done in a way to keep up with the power, but it was too overly done. Making Susano'o available to any gifted Uchiha was a bad idea, especially since it changed Sasuke's fighting style. Making Kyuubi chakra or bijuu chakra a super powerup was also bad, because it now requires insane power to keep up with Naruto or Bee, especially if enemy doesn't have the right tool (like Kisame and his Samehada).

    I'd much rather see a fight between Sasuke and Naruto that didn't involve Susano'o, Kyuubi, or any other souped up attacks. A real ninja fight, similar to Itachi and Sasuke. To solely blame the Sharingan is wrong, the blame should also lie with the idea of bijuu and especially with the powerups Kyuubi give.

  6. #21
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member shahdan's Avatar
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    Re: Was things really necessary?

    That conceptual change resulted from his deep plunge into the whole 'Jinchurki' and 'tailed beasts' logic. He over-powered them to infinite proportions and as he's built this yin yang concept (Light dark, Senju uchiha, Naruto Sasuke) concept from the start, he needed to up the game for the other party to make them look comparable. This was a bad, bad idea.

    I don't think even the present Kakashi is a ninja. His Kamui feats cross the verges of the title indefinitely and easily. I wouldn't call Minato a classic ninja as well, as he deflected a fully-powered nine-tails TBB with his S/T jutsu. The only ninjas we truly saw were in part one, and the start of Shipudden. After that, the whole manga spiraled down fast and crashed to pieces soon after.
    Last edited by shahdan; November 17, 2012 at 02:03 PM.

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  8. #22
    Moemin 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member 3c's Avatar
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    Re: Was things really necessary?

    @ninjabot, M3J & shahdan. This is kind of going back to the start of the discussion again as I wrote it down last night but decided to post the full length of it later. But these are some of my overall thoughts regarding power in NARUTO, and a big part of it being about Susano'o. There's no way to make this short, and splitting it up makes no sense, so here goes.

    I think, to find the root of the problem, we have to look at the Senju vs Uchiha plot. Once this previous sub-plot increased its importance, everything started running out of hand. NARUTO was a story that was once about a ninja world with monstrous exceptions in Jinchuuriki (and Bijuu). It should have remained this way. Saying that Kishi made Jinchuuriki too powerful isn't entirely true as Kishi had the concept of a Jinchuuriki's powers mapped out from an early stage and gave us a progressive build up for it, from 0KN to 1KN, 3KN and 4KN. This brings up the whole point about Akatsuki, and the reason for its once unique existence. It was a group of special people that possessed abilities few others had, the ability to successfully fight Jinchuuriki. The problem is that these people lost their unique standing when more and more people appeared at, or above their average level.

    Focusing at the Sharingan a bit, I don't think many have major issues with the Sharingan's original Mangekyou abilities (Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu). The issues lie in Susano'o and later introduced completely hax powers that pop up out of nowhere with no explanation. Shisui's "brainwash no jutsu" and Obito's insane S/T techniques are completely overpowered in this world, while thankfully Shisui's technique has a ridiculous and convenient cooldown because nature decided it was "too hax". However Obito's technique is a good example of Kishi letting his imagination and the concept of power in NARUTO go wild. You need such a unique set of abilities to deal with him 1v1 that other powers had to follow up (or the other way around).

    Going back to Susano'o, it's simply a broken technique that doesn't really fit in the narutoverse to begin with, it's just a ridiculous ability. Two eyes gives you the automatic ability to form a gigantic chakra mecha that is uber powerful. I've always said that my opinion about Susano'o is that it destroyed the affected Uchiha. Itachi using it was legendary and cool, but it should have been a one time thing and unique for Itachi (which would have gone hand in hand with his shield and sword being unique). The fact is that Susano'o has utterly ruined Sasuke to the point where he relies on it in almost any situation simply because it's convenient. Excessive use no longer seems to be an issue, and it's just so damn useful that he'd rather form it in the millisecond it takes to form the gigantic chakra mecha (the speed in itself which is ridiculous already, It's basically an on/off switch and it's there/gone), than use his already superb speed to dodge attacks or use less consuming techniques to deal with a situation (providing variety in a fight). Heck, even Edo Itachi suddenly used it a lot. Susano'o basically destroys everything that defines a good ninja. The user becomes a stationary mecha pilot. There's a reason the vast majority says that Sasuke in the Deidara fight was what he should be like, snakes or not. Sasuke back then was my favorite character in Naruto. Yes I admit to this in public!

    Really, it's easy to focus mainly on the Sharingan because Susano'o and Obito's (and Kakashi's borrowed) abilities are so overpowered that they make for a great argument. What's easy is to put the blame on the Sharingan, but the truth is that the Sharingan simply adapted to the world Kishi designed. The Jinchuuriki and power of Bijuu were already solidified in part 1. It was a progressive build up so no one can say it came out of nowhere. What Kishi screwed up with, was letting so many character's powers grow out of control. If you think about it, it's understandable. From Kishi's POV it's quite boring not challenging your own imagination for so long. You always wish to "do better", and in this case Kishi tried to think everytime he made a new character and its design "how can I make this character appear unique and cool? What unseen amazing fighting style and ability can I introduce to make my fans amazed?" It's an understandable logic, but unfortunately less is sometimes more.

    A small solution to the issues that concern the concept of power in NARUTO would be in another ability for the Sharingan to replace Susano'o for Sasuke, mainly because Sasuke has such excessive spotlight. Like I mentioned, Susano'o took away too much excitement in a fight by making its user stationary and heavily reliable on the technique. It was a bad technique design that turned out being fatal, as to fix the issue Kishi would have to introduce another technique out of nowhere to make Susano'o unuseful, which in itself would have likely been an even more broken technique, like Obito's technique.

    But in the end, the main issue doesn't lie in Uzumaki Naruto or Uchiha Sasuke. The main issue lies in other characters like the Raikage being too fast to handle without a convenient speed boost or superb defense to make up for lack of speed. Kishi's problem is that he didn't keep the uniqueness in his universe. Akatsuki is no longer unique, it's just a bunch of strong guys. There's a ton of other characters that can fight a Jinchuuriki of average level. Minato's speed is no longer unique, Raikage is about as fast and now Naruto too. Saving the best for last, a Bijuu's power is no longer unique, all one needs is Superman Madara and his gigantic chakra mecha (seriously who knows where he would get the necessary chakra from in a mortal form). Why on earth did he need the power comparable to a Bijuu if he already had the eyes to control them? How on earth did Hashirama deal with such a mecha? Did he have a wood mecha?

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  10. #23
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Zasz's Avatar
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    Re: Was things really necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by 0Xellos View Post
    An average human has about 100 trillions of cells. So that was already true when we only had Yamato
    It's better to say there're more Hashi-cells than cells in Narutoverse
    LOL you're right, thanks for the correction. XD



    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    I don't think the story wouldn't have existed if Sharingan wasn't like it is. The story would still be there, but without the whole Senju/Uchiha thing. Sasuke still needed to kill Itachi, Akatsuki still needed the bijuu, and... well, not sure if Rinnegan would have been the focus either if not for Sharingan or Senju/Uchiha.
    Sorry I used the wrong word. XD
    What I meant to say was that the story wouldn't have the same development.

  11. #24
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    Re: Was things really necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by 3c View Post
    This brings up the whole point about Akatsuki, and the reason for its once unique existence. It was a group of special people that possessed abilities few others had, the ability to successfully fight Jinchuuriki.
    It's interesting to note that when Itachi and Kisame first appeared, they said that they didn't stand a chance against the Kyuubi, and that even if they increased their numbers it wouldn't make a difference.

    At some point the author decided that fighting a Bijuu would make a character look incredible, like the Akatsuki capturing the Jinchuuriki, or Raikage having a Bijuu-level of Chakra. But when you realize that anyone of Kage level or stronger than a Jonnin can fight a Bijuu, it raises the question of why they are so feared, why are they used as a balance beetween villages, what is so amazing about Madara controlling the Kyuubi?
    Quote Originally Posted by IChallengeYou! View Post
    TOBI IS OBITO

    did you say something about timelines?! naruto ate it NOM NOM NOM IT'S GONE.

  12. #25
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member marshall313's Avatar
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    Re: Was things really necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox666 View Post
    It's interesting to note that when Itachi and Kisame first appeared, they said that they didn't stand a chance against the Kyuubi, and that even if they increased their numbers it wouldn't make a difference.

    At some point the author decided that fighting a Bijuu would make a character look incredible, like the Akatsuki capturing the Jinchuuriki, or Raikage having a Bijuu-level of Chakra. But when you realize that anyone of Kage level or stronger than a Jonnin can fight a Bijuu, it raises the question of why they are so feared, why are they used as a balance beetween villages, what is so amazing about Madara controlling the Kyuubi?
    The kyubi? I thought both kisame and itachi are talking about jiraiya. Both kisame and itachi agreed that they're no match to jiraiya. And even if they call for back up from akatsuki, it wouldn't make any difference. that's how itachi and kisame feared jiraiya.

    The bijuus are being feared because of what they are. They can destroy any hidden village if they want. They had an amazing chakra that could make their jinchuuriki to a powerful shinobi. A powerful shinobi that can protect his village as a hidden weapon. And a hidden weapons that balance the power between the 5 great villages.

    Btw, tsunade said that hashirama killed for containing the ninja war, but if he had a bijuus under his sleeves, why would he never used them as a weapon to control/end the war?and he could make as many jinchuuriki with those bijuus in konoha. Then I'm pretty sure there's no one would going to make a war to konoha. The ninja world would be in peace and the konoha would be the greatest village of all.
    No matter how POWERFUL/STRONG you are. If you cannot CATCH your Enemy, all your POWER/STRENGTH is no more useful then a squirt gun. And if you cannot possibly TRACK/REACT to your enemies attacks to defend yourself, then how can you possibly stop him from DEFEATING you at will?

  13. #26
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member shafagh's Avatar
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    Re: Was things really necessary?

    Quote Quote:
    The kyubi? I thought both kisame and itachi are talking about jiraiya. Both kisame and itachi agreed that they're no match to jiraiya. And even if they call for back up from akatsuki, it wouldn't make any difference. that's how itachi and kisame feared jiraiya.
    well , Itachi was in "Lying mode " and he didn't want to kill Jiraya , nothing more , nothing less ....


    and about Sharingan ......

    you nee something that keep with 100 BM clones , right !?

    that why Sharingan become more powerful .... even though , we knew Madara was an legend even in first part !!!
    خداحافظ

  14. #27
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member shahdan's Avatar
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    Re: Was things really necessary?

    @3C If Kishimoto had not conceived this laughable notion of ethereal entities with a bottom-less pockets full of Chakra, instant makeovers from fatal injuries, increased durability and what not, we wouldn't have seen Taijutsu's severe, and shameful sacrifice. I still believe that making humans a vessel for immortal entities was a very insipid approach to creativity. Had he employed some other method, like putting a small potion, heck even a dna - what? It's hip in Naruto these days - into the said vessels, he wouldn't have to overpower the other side to such a degree so that they would match up to their awesome, out-of-this-world - no pun intended - power.

    Also, back when Naruto started, Naruto and Gaara were the only known vessels for beasts, and their power - especially the current Naruto's power - was no where near what we see today. My full blame still lies heavily on Bijuus and the free usage of awesome and unimaginable BS powers.

    P.s: I publicly admit I even watch Naruto because of Sasuke. No shame in that.

  15. #28
    MH Senpai 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Uchiha_Blood's Avatar
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    Re: Was things really necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by shahdan View Post
    @3C If Kishimoto had not conceived this laughable notion of ethereal entities with a bottom-less pockets full of Chakra, instant makeovers from fatal injuries, increased durability and what not, we wouldn't have seen Taijutsu's severe, and shameful sacrifice. I still believe that making humans a vessel for immortal entities was a very insipid approach to creativity. Had he employed some other method, like putting a small potion, heck even a dna - what? It's hip in Naruto these days - into the said vessels, he wouldn't have to overpower the other side to such a degree so that they would match up to their awesome, out-of-this-world - no pun intended - power.

    Also, back when Naruto started, Naruto and Gaara were the only known vessels for beasts, and their power - especially the current Naruto's power - was no where near what we see today. My full blame still lies heavily on Bijuus and the free usage of awesome and unimaginable BS powers.

    P.s: I publicly admit I even watch Naruto because of Sasuke. No shame in that.
    ^ That's just an excuse, imo:
    Bijuu become useless in front of certain abilities like Hashirama's wood or Kushina's chains. All the Sharingan had to do to keep up is exploring what Sasuke did, back at the beginning of part 2:
    suppression, working exactly like other Senju/Uzumaki powers. That way Sasuke could compete with Naruto despite the latter having a Bijuu in his gut, simply because he could turn off that convenient ability.

    On the subject 3c really said everything there is to say, although one to be fair can say the same for Hashirama's cells holding 294739 powers and benefits on its own.
    Except for Izanagi and Izanami that is, in Naruto we have a paradox where Rin'negan < 3 tomoe Sharingan

  16. #29
    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: Was things really necessary?

    The problem lies in Kishi trying to make Naruto a lot like Dragon Ball Z. I think of Dragon Ball and Part I Naruto to be alike, superior to their "sequel" and actually good. Dragon Ball had action, adventure, comedy, and some romance. It wasn't just about fighting, nor was it about energy beams everywhere. You also had hand to hand combat, and good fights where strategy was just as important. Same with Part I Naruto, and most ninjas actually acted like ninjas. Zabuza, Sasuke, and Kakashi were few examples of what a ninja should be like. So far, only three ninjas in Part II acted like ninjas, the rest just showed energy beams or too much power.

    Naruto Shippuden started good, and got worse in my opinion, like Dragon Ball Z. The only difference is that Goku stayed static and had no reason to change throughout the entire Dragon Ball series, while Naruto should have been dynamic and changed for the better. Pain Invasion arc Naruto is what Naruto should be now, not Naruto that gets stupid randomly.

    Then Naruto and Sasuke get powerups that make them able to shoot out energy beams, get ultimate protection, and not fight with their brains as much as they used to. I think Kishi either forgot what Naruto was about or he's just that much of a Dragon Ball Z fanboy.

  17. #30
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member shahdan's Avatar
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    Re: Was things really necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    ^ That's just an excuse, imo:
    Bijuu become useless in front of certain abilities like Hashirama's wood or Kushina's chains. All the Sharingan had to do to keep up is exploring what Sasuke did, back at the beginning of part 2:
    suppression, working exactly like other Senju/Uzumaki powers. That way Sasuke could compete with Naruto despite the latter having a Bijuu in his gut, simply because he could turn off that convenient ability.

    On the subject 3c really said everything there is to say, although one to be fair can say the same for Hashirama's cells holding 294739 powers and benefits on its own.
    Except for Izanagi and Izanami that is, in Naruto we have a paradox where Rin'negan < 3 tomoe Sharingan

    Look at current Naruto's abilities and now compare them to Sasuke's without sussano. This isn't an excuse at all, but a plausible outcome of this 'tailed beasts' power ups that just continue to baffle me. It's because of these beasts that the manga has moved so far away from its original course. Whether you agree with me or not is not an issue for me, but I would still stick to my opinion as this whole Jinchurki notion was nothing but ridiculous from the start.

    Look at one-tail's fight with Naruto and the toad summon. They almost leveled a whole forest. Now how would the other side counter this without an ability that was exceptionally powerful? Also, Hashirama was considered a thing of the fairy-tails from the start as far as powers go. That man was never a ninja to begin with, but a Goku from DBZ without the blond super saiyen mode.

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