Originally Posted by
Impossibility
First thing, this is the comment, made by you, that brought me into this discussion.
I can see that, yet you brought nothing to counter my argument about him not being shown on the path to claim said powers. All you argued was that he trained with them, and while some of those were wrong, the discussion wasn't about whether Naruto trained or not.
Originally Posted by
Impossibility
Now, the Rasen Shuriken didn't come out of nowhere, it was the combination of nature to shape formation. And there was quite a bit about the history of the Rasengan, and the difficulty of joining it with nature affinities. We may not have known the resulting technique, but there was no doubt about Naruto adding wind to his Rasengan. As for Sage Mode, it was foreshadowed, discussed, and trained extensively before Naruto's use of it. Jiraiya used SM, Ma & Pa came to get Naruto to teach him the mode, he trained for quite some time, and utilised his ability to create clones with his massive chakra endurance to aid in the completion of the technique. I don't see how this is problematic, it would be akin to me complaining about Sasuke's ability to use Chidori, because he has his Sharingan to make it effective. Individuals have natural abilities. As for Kurama, Naruto didn't suddenly learn how to utilise his chakra. Naruto's training to use his chakra began with Jiraiya's training years ago. And there have been references to this control quite frequently ever since. We've also seen the relationship between Kurama and Naruto evolve. We saw Naruto's training at the hand of Bee to further his use of Kurama's chakra, and we saw some of the motivations behind Kurama's change of heart, including his rocky history with Naruto's current opponents. Kurama's cheerleading might be ridiculous, but Kurama's excitement levels were irrelevant to Naruto's abilities, once he had agreed to support him.
It did come out of nowhere. The training arc was set up to combine Naruto's wind nature with the Rasengan, the ultimate form of shape maniuplation. That very statement would have implied there wasn't anything shape-wise that needed to change and that Naruto only had to deal with the elemental side of it. The end result was the Fuuton Rasengan, which was exactly what said to be the end goal. There was no implications that Naruto would go beyond that and create something like the Rasen-Shuriken. Jiraiya using Sage Mode in no way suggested that Naruto would gain it, and the Toads only mentioned Naruto training to learn it the chapter before he left. And again, the discussion isn't about how well Naruto trained in something, it's about whether it was indicated that he would eventually learn it before he actually did. Same with the Kyuubi. There was no indication beforehand that Naruto becoming a prefect Jinchuuriki would allow him abilities like to sense hatred and transform Mokuton, much less grant him some unique cloak different from any other Jinchuuriki. Before that point, Naruto had gained powers and appeared like any other Jinchuuriki.
Originally Posted by
Impossibility
As for you reference to Jinchuurikis being made solely to control Bijuus. Well, these bijuus offer abilities to the ones in which they are sealed, something that was shown since the introduction of Gaara. We've seen each jin have unique abilities. Now, I might be inclined to agree with you that the whole tree thing is nonsensical, at best. However, it wasn't unexpected that Naruto would gain some sort of abilities after he had managed control over the Kyuubi chakra, everyone else had cool or absolutely ridiculous abilities.
The Jinchuuriki having unique abilities were not the goal behind creating a Jinchuuriki or what the villages desired. The villages created the Jinchuuriki with the goal of making the Bijuus into usable weapons. We were told that several times. The Jinchuuriki gaining unique abilities was just an unintended consequence.
Originally Posted by
Impossibility
Could you point out these magically appearing abilities? Everything Naruto has showed in battle has been foreshadowed, or trained prior to battles. Just because Sasuke had the potential to develop the Sahringan, doesn't mean it should just pop up when necessary.
Clones passing experience, Sensing hatred, affecting Mokuton, passing the Kyuubi's chakra onto others despite it being mentioned several times how poisonous the chakra was suppose to be. These abilities just suddenly appeared without any kind of foreshadowing or training.
When necessary? It developed in a life-threatening battle several chapters after the revelation that the Sharingan was the doujutsu of the Uchiha clan. And it's not even like it changed the course of battle. Sasuke still lost and would have died had Haku actually been serious.
Originally Posted by
Impossibility
As for your 90%, I guess that just makes Sasuke really lucky. As for training it, no. Sasuke didn't train his CS before his use of it. He tried to suppress it, mostly. And then in the battle against Naruto, he was suddenly using it very efficiently, and up popped his CS 2 when it was required.
Sasuke did have to later train to actually make use of it, instead of being worn out after a few minutes. It was one of the important developments during Part Two, Sasuke mastering it to the point of being able to partially transform and not being worn out by it.
Originally Posted by
Impossibility
Sasuke trained for a month to gain speed. Really? I'm pretty sure some of that time was used to train Chidori. And using it exhausted him, so I'm not sure about him using that time much to train his speed. And it took Lee far longer with complete focus on his physicality to achieve such a speed. So yes, that speed was a gift.
Took Sasuke a little under a week to learn a ninjutsu before he even gained the advantage of the Sharingan. Not that it would have even meant that Sasuke couldn't trained both at the same time. It exhausted him because his body wasn't physically use to the stamina drain, due to as mentioned, training in just a month. Fact remains, he did train to gain Lee's speed, an accomplishment mentioned by both Lee and Kakashi.
Originally Posted by
Impossibility
As for the MS, he trained for three years with Orochimaru. He had no training with the MS. So I don't see how that training was relevant. His fight was a farce, Itachi had every intention of giving Sasuke his eyes. It was also during this battle that Sasuke revealed Kirin, which was a technique that really came out of nowhere. Especially when considering that the technique requires specific conditions to be utilised, and those conditions just happened to be available.
That training was required to get to the point of battling Itachi and showing he could take his place. Without it, he couldn't have gotten there and Itachi wouldn't have entrusted him to take over his role. He then went on to have several life-threatening battle just to awaken the various abilities. Kirin was implied earlier, during Team Seven's invasion of Orochimaru's hideout and the battle with Deidara. As for the conditions, Sasuke was the one who created said conditions, so that's moot. Also, you do realize that the conditions used were to use it at maximum strength and wouldn't be required with regular usage.
Originally Posted by
Impossibility
As for kuchiyose, I was referencing the random hawk that just popped out of nowhere.
Which I didn't disagree with.
Originally Posted by
Impossibility
As for his research into eliminating Orochimaru, I don't see how that technique would've been even remotely useful outside of those very specific circumstance, and Sasuke having the desire to bring back Orochimaru, which is sort of at odds for the purpose of the research. Add in that flashback, and I'm going to stick with that tech being granted rather conveniently.
Um, it was the reverse of the Evil Sealing Method,
the one Kakashi had originally used to sealed his own Cursed Seal.
Sasuke outright thinks about preforming the opposite of that seal, which shows it didn't come out of nowhere. You don't think that may be useful against an opponent who is known to manipulate Cursed Seals and inhabit bodies with them?
Originally Posted by
Impossibility
As I said before, Naruto's abilities were foreshadowed, and trained, extensively before their usage. Sasuke's tech were just gifted and granted as necessary for his immediate survival.
No they really weren't. Sasuke's abilities were the ones foreshadowed well before he gained them, and hardly granted to him just so he could survive. The only ability that could be claimed as such would be the technique Susanoo, and that still didn't exactly rescue him in it's initial appearance. They weren't like the Kyuubi's chakra which fixed Naruto right up.
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