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Translations: Gintama 506 (2)
Didn't Jiraiya bribe Naruto with a new jutsu if he went with him to find Tsunade?Quote:
And later Jiraiya confirmed he teached Naruto the Rasengan so he could defend himself against Akatsuki
Then why didn't they stop?Quote:
Rasen Shuriken is obviously much stronger than Wind Rasengan, it showed as much countless times
Sasuke actually had the chance, what, 2-3 chapters after that?Quote:
It was Naruto stopping him, and then him later on not wanting to be Itachi's puppet. Also how was MS connected to Sasuke when it was firstly introduced? It was Itachi's prerogative
We saw him keeping control only on the first tail, on the second he had to be stopped by Kakashi otherwise he would go berserk, same with the third tail. The more Naruto used Kyuubi's chakra, the more Kyuubi's will influenced him, taking control of Naruto.Quote:
Such a mode, expecially without conquering his own hate, was useless
We don't know for certain why, and no one said anything about it:Quote:
maybe its Kyuubi's chakra lacking its Yin part, then being pure Yang ( physical ) energy ( this would explain the reaction with Naruto's body inherited by the Sage and why it affects Mokuton ), maybe its Naruto being Rikudou Sennin's reincarnated, we don't know a thing for certain.
And Naruto being connected with Rikudou was foreshadowed since Kushina's flashback, and later by all Bijuus.
That was my entire point: if we take away any genetic differences or outside powers from Sasuke and Naruto, force them to train on willpower and ingenuity alone, and then look at their growth... then the true superior becomes apparent. And just like you said, we can take EVERY ninja in the manga and hold them to the very same stipulations to find out who genuinely are imperssive ninja and who are just lucky. It's the very reason why I pointed out all the training instances you brought up with Naruto were either outrageously easy, or made easier by his giant chakra reserves or Kurama's aid. You seem to have deluded yourself into thinking Naruto's abilities come from hard work and perseverance alone. You are sorely mistaken.Originally Posted by Impossibility
While using the technique, Kakashi explains to Sasuke (verbally) how it works aswell as how to disarm it. Though it turns out we're both mistaken: since Sasuke isn't using the jutsu Kakashi used (which is a seal), he's only unsealing the previously sealed... seal. We know canonically that he knows how to deactivate the seal, aswell as draw chakra out of it (which is how he revived Orochimaru) http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/219/11Quote:
You can whine about the Kabuto pieces and how Sasuke knew that would work, but you can't deny that he knew the ins and outs of Fuja Hoin.
I think there's a difference between Naruto employing a Rikudou Sennin technique given by Minato to somehow being destined to bring the Bijuus together.
Naruto really didn't have to work for the chakra. All he needed, from the looks of it, was information that he did get Kyuubi's chakra, and for Jiraiya to push him into danger.
Training to use Kyuubi's chakra after he stole it? It was earned, it's his power. But the chakra he used that was given by Kyuubi is not really him trainin for it, other than precise use (like not breaking whatever he grips), which itself is debatable after Kyuubi's will came with the chakra.Quote:
Sasuke also trained for Mangekyo and in a way, EMS (even if he did get it for free/without a price). The difference is, unlike with Naruto and past training, Sasuke couldn't train his Mangekyo casually, he had to do it in battle to make the most use of it since it did have a permanent detrimental effect on his eyes. Both Naruto and Sasuke had help in getting Kyuubi's chakra or Mangekyo Sharingan, even though they still worked for it.
Naruto didn't need to train at all, he just needed to finetune it, otherwise he could speedblitz or use chakra arms any time he wanted. The difference is, chakra arms would have been useless in helping allies while speedblitz depended, but Naruto could just avoid landing on walls. Hell, we don't even know if he did train to be more agile while using Kyuubi's chakra tob oost his speed.Quote:
Naruto didn't really train for bijuudama though. For some reason, it worked in bijuu mode despite Naruto himself making it, when it didn't in normal Kyuubi's chakra mode. That's kinda weird. But anyway, Naruto perfected bijuudama, like he did with rasengan and Sage Mode clones, in a fight, like how Sasuke got Sharingan or improved Sharingan in a fight. Difference is, it didn't help Sasuke win without a problem, whereas Naruto was able to fight without as much difficulty.
Not really, as it's been said many times that Sharingan was rare among Uchihas. Might as well admit that Naruto didn't earn the right to use Kyuubi chakra either, since he either unknowingly used it or used it to save himself, since it is another power.And Sasuke did train for Amaterasu adn Susano'o since he did use it in a fight. He didn't know he could control Amaterasu, use Susano'o, or use a more complete Susano'o until later.
He doesn't need to train for EMS though. That's like saying Naruto needs to train to use Kyuubi's chakra without knowing it. Naruto didn't earn Kyuubi either, he only got it because Minato thought Naruto would be a good choice.
I know, just like how CS2 was harming Sasuke.Quote:
The blindness was real, and Cursed Seal still made it harder for Sasuke to fight. Naruto had Fukasaku to stop him from turning into a toad or stone, and then when he finally perfected it, he didn't need to worry much. The cloak may have harmed him, but it still gave him tremendous power and ability to do rasengan with one hand.
Once again though, same boat. Once CS2 and Sage Mode were mastered, they never needed to worry about the negatives. Blindness and harmful effect of Kyuubi chakra were bypassed.
Why would he want to kill Kyuubi? He never wanted to kill Kyuubi, he needed its power (though I honestly think Sage mode Naruto with good genjutsu defense would have done the trick against Sasuke). Naruto may have hated the Kyuubi (from what he said later, he never hated it), but he wouldn't have killed it. If he wanted to act on his hate, Kakashi and Fukasaku would be buried now.Quote:
Half a fight against the Kyuubi with mother as Naruto's ally is not that worse compared to a full fight with a sick Itachi that wouldn't kill. Kyuubi began to dominate Naruto, but thanks to Kushina he failed and was suppressed. Then Kushina yanked on her chakra chain, which caused the Kyuubi to fall. Even at the beginning, Naruto had Bee's help. Naruto never won purely with his own power, like how Sasuke never won purely on his own merits. Same boat here as well.
I think having a crappy childhood is better than getting a new power from seeing an entire clan of family die, betrayed by the brother I loved, and then finding out my brother did love me and that I brought about his death, and that he suffered for me. Hell, crappy childhood for free powerups whenever I'm in danger is better than blindness and risk of Mangekyo transplant not working.Quote:
Thanks to the Kyuubi, Naruto can learn almost any jutsu faster than Sasuke, and do more chakra-exhaustive jutsu constantly. If Naruto's in danger, he can increase his speed and strength all he wants, be healed, and gain a good defense that not even swords can damage him. Sasuke can only get good defense and long-range attacks that uses up chakra, he can't heal or increase his speed or strength.
Scroll never mentioned kage bunshin. For all we know, it could have been rasengan or even Mokuton before it was established as the rarest kekkei genkai ever.
Because Kishi wanted to give Naruto a more destructive jutsu? Fuuton: rasengan was the only thing foreshadowed, because it was the complete version of rasengan. Naruto, which was not hinted, took it a step further with FRS.Quote:
It wasn't. It was the final step, otherwise why would Kakashi see how fuuton: rasengan did against a normal rasengan if it wasn't finished yet?
Kakashi explaining the function of the technique isn't the same thing as teaching him the technique. And no, he wasn't using the same sealing tech, he was essentially doing the reverse, which is strange because it is still unknown as to how he learned the original. And your reference is completely different from what Sasuke did to revive Orochimaru. Having control over his own seal and utilising a technique to draw Orochimaru out are two entirely different things.Quote:
Your criticism of Rasen Shuriken appears to be its design and name, more than anything else. We knew that Naruto was attempting to create a new technique, we knew that it involved wind affinity and Rasengan, just because we didn't know what the exact end product would be, doesn't mean that the tech wasn't foreshadowed and discussed extensively prior to its use. As for SM, it was pretty clear that Naruto would learn SM. His teacher learned SM from the toads, the same toads that he shared a summoning contract with. It would've been strange for Naruto not to learn SM. As for the abilities with Kurama, I'm not a fan of the abilities that he gained. However, the other Jins have unique abilities, it was to be expected that he would gain some abilities from his control over Kurama's chakra. As for the design of the cloak, we've seen different Jins manifest their powers in different manners, also it's a criticism of the design, more than the ability. As for the clones passing experience. That's a function of the technique, has nothing to do with adding abilities to Naruto. Anyone that can utilise shadow clones has that ability. So, I don't understand what the problem is with that.
Sasuke's eyes also evolved in the middle of his battle with Naruto, which pretty much allowed him to keep up. And what about that random ability to meet up with the sealed Kyuubi, and suppress it's chakra. Where did that one come from? You mention Sasuke's training of the seal during the timeskip, but fail to address its use prior to that. For example, when his CS2 showed up in the middle of his battle with Naruto. I don't accept Sasuke's rapid increase in speed as anything other than a gift to allow him to compete. If one looks at the circumstances reasonably, I think that is clear. As for his training to fight Itachi, the goal was not the MS. There was nothing to suggest that he was going to have new eyes by the end of the battle, which in itself was staged by Itachi, not Sasuke. And you suggest that he went through several life-threatening battles to awaken the abilities, I think it would be more clear to say he awakened these abilities during several life-threatening battles. And back to the seal. Kakashi using the sealing method on Sasuke doesn't provide Sasuke with the ability to suddenly use the reverse to revive Orochimaru.
What I find most entertaining about this argument is your inconsistency with your arguments. You mention that the discussion is about the foreshadowing of the abilities, not the training, but point to some unbelievable training for Sasuke's unexpected increase in speed, and use training after his use of the CS to justify it. For Naruto's abilities I've provided both the foreshadowing and training. You find Naruto's learning of SM to be objectionable, but Sasuke's use of Kakashi's seal to be inscrutable. You reference the convenience of Kurama, which was pointed to from Ch1, but ignore the constant advances in the Sharingan that seems to gain new forms and abilities every month, each of which just casually pops up in Sasuke's eyes. You attempt to suggest that Naruto's form of Rasen Shuriken isn't foreshadowed, but seem to forget Sasuke's many variants of Chidori. You speak of the ridiculous abilities provided by Kurama, but wilfully ignore those granted by the Sharingan, including Sasuke's suppression of the Kyuubi itself.
The only time that happened was when Naruto fought Orochimaru and Pain. Otherwise he was still in control of his mind, even though he did get free chakra and healing abilities, as well as a boost. That's the only time Kyuubi's chakra or benefit of its chakra came into play, when Naruto needed it. He still got tired, he still fainted, he could still barely walk, etc. I don't think the Kyuubi's chakra helped him train up until the rasengan, when it helped him recover faster. While he did have those qualities at the beginning, it wasn't accessible to him until way later, although his healing rate was better.
The whole reason you brought up a list of things Naruto trained to gain, aswell as a list of things Sasuke gained without training, was to imply that Naruto had a harder time gaining the powers he has, while Sasuke's came to him easily, correct? My first post showed how difficult Sasuke's powers were gained, training or not. My second post revealed just how easily Naruto gained his powers, training or not.Originally Posted by Impossibility
My edit to that post was to remind everyone that whenever the both of them, sans special powers, train to gain power, Sasuke does better than Naruto. This was to debunk any assumption that Sasuke's strength is completely out of his hands.
Originally you said he "gained a sealing jutsu from out of nowhere". This is wrong, because the technique he used wasn't a fuuinjutsu. It was a way to counter act a jutsu that was once used on himself. With the scan I showed it showed us that Sasuke was aware of how to pull chakra out of the seal. And I corrected myself about Kakashi teaching it to him. He gave him the know-how to disengage it however. Sasuke knew that chakra could be put into the seal and taken out. And also that overuse of the CS would allow Orochimaru to corrode their will from within meaning a part of himself was in each subject. He just needed to figure out how to take it out.Quote:
And as for the sealing tech, it is a fuuinjutsu. It is the exact opposite of the evil sealing method. And Kakashi explained what the seal did, not how to use it and definitely not how to do the opposite.
Compete with who? Sasuke was already considered fast before gaining it, and he never fought Lee again, so there was no need to compete with him. Not as if anyone else he fought then were known for speed. It doesn't matter if Sasuke wasn't purposely aiming for MS, he still did a bunch of training that resulted in it. Without that training, he would have never made it to Itachi in the first place, much less proved himself to enough Itachi for him to believe he could take over his role. And we knew hundreds of chapter before that their was another level to the Sharingan. We were also fully aware of the three MS abilities that Sasuke later gained via Itachi showing them all off, in addition to reference of Sasuke purposely testing them. Sasuke knowing of a means to seal the CS, which Kakashi told him all about as he did it, and later stating how he did a bunch of research in preparation for his battle with Orochimaru would imply he knew the sealing method. And since all he did was reverse the seals, it's hardly out of nowhere.
Objectionable? When did I object to it? It not being foreshadowed is the only issue here. And the advancements of Sasuke's Sharingan aren't the same. As stated, all the abilities Sasuke has gained were shown and mentioned by others before he developed them. Itachi, Kakashi, and Madara debuted them all before Sasuke. It's not like Sasuke gain something like Kotoamatsukami or Kamui, which did come out of nowhere. When did I ever say the Chidori variations were foreshadowed? I actually stated that techniques don't count in this regard because they are rarely foreshadowed before they are actually used. I wasn't even the one to bring up the Rasen-Shuriken, nor would I have, since the discussion was over abilities not techniques. And the suppression of the Kyuubi was foreshadowed, pretty earlier in the series. It was by all accounts the reason Kakashi was put in charge of Naruto and attempted to get to him fast when the seal first weaken. On the otherhand, none of the abilities granted by the current Kyuubi even make sense, much less were foreshadowed.
And it was established several times in Part Two that Naruto base abilities were subpar, thus the reason he kept losing control in battle and had to learn two enhance modes in order to complete with the villains.
You don't see how I came to the conclusion that sans special powers, Sasuke was a superior ninja?Originally Posted by Impossibility
You don't remember Sasuke being outrageously superior to Naruto before the manifestation of the Sharingan? Better grades than him, did better than him in the bell test, access to elemental jutsu before him, managed to hold off Gozu and Mezu until Kakashi was able to finish them off, and defeating Haku in taijutsu, forcing him to bring out the Demonic Mirror? I could even bring databook stats into it if need be. Sasuke was always superior to Naruto prior to them manifesting boosts from the Kyuubi and Sharingan.
No... no we didn't. Sasuke didn't activate the CS out of necessity. He wasn't even trying to fight Naruto yet. It was active as he talked trash, then Naruto rushed him.http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/218/14Quote:
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/218/15 Kyuubified eye? Check. Then he punches him.
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/218/16 He knocks blood out of the mouth of a ninja not fighting back.
Had to utilise? Come on.
Ever stop to think that's the reason he sucked without Kurama's aid? Naruto's shtick is that he loses until Kurama comes in to save him. Against Neji the fight would've been over had Kurama not given him any chakra. Ditto with Haku (who also simply didn't want to kill him). Against Kakuzu he was half dead and Naruto still had Kyuubi influence strengthening him, evidenced by his fox eyes at the beginning of the fight. Then managing to defeat alot of Pein's realms thanks to God Realm sitting on the sideline (and an assload of prior knowledge), only to nearly die at the end and be saved by both Kurama and Minato intervening.Quote:
Not to mention every time he did something that took a ton of chakra, that ton of chakra he was using was possible thanks to the seal that allowed Kurama's chakra to mix with his own. Inother words, there's no such thing as "without Kurama".
Incase you didn't know what you quoted, I said he told him how to disengage the jutsu aswell as how it works.Quote:
Being a Jinchuuriki and possessing a Kekkei Genkai are two different concepts.
As a Jinchuuriki, you have two options. Either you tame the Bijuu inside your body or die. Naruto was supposed to suppress the Kyuubi at some point in the story, and for the record, it took a lot of time to come to that point in the story. So, he tamed his Bijuu fairly slowly.
Gaara was able to completely transform years ago. But the difference here is Naruto didn't have a sibling of highest degree in the village.
Gaara knew who he was (a weapon, misusing a concept, but never mind). Bee also knew who he was.
Naruto didn't have a clue.
As an Uzumaki descendant, he possessed massive chakra reserves and life force initially. That's how he was able to use Tajuu Kage Bunshin for the first time despite being a miserable Shinobi at basics. He mastered Rasengan relying on the same power.
It's interesting, though. I probably disagree with most here, but I don't think Sage Mode was there for taking in a crystal clear way. It hasn't been even mentioned at any point prior to Jiraiya's battle with Pain, and it came like a surprise to me that we were introduced the nature chakra concept there.
As a Kekkei Genkai user, depending on your natural talent, you can go as far as you wish.
Sasuke, younger brother of Uchiha Itachi, who could possibly be the strongest person in the entire clan by the age of 13, had definitely good inheritance from genes.
Up until Itachi's death, Sasuke's power-ups in the story are all driven by the very same manipulation he was under. Awakening Sharingan, mastering Chidori, Orochimaru's training.
To be honest, Sasuke's power-ups up to EMS looked quite fitting along the overall development of an Uchiha. Even for EMS, there was a prior example, of course, in the case of Madara and Izuna. Itachi went on and on about taking his eyes before his death.
I'm clearly far from being a Sasuke fanboy (because I don't like Sasuke as a character), but I'll give him the credit he deserves. He was considered a genius back in academy and Orochimaru praised him in a way that Sasuke deserved the title of genius more than he himself did back in his youth. Naruto's perceptional abilities were initially poor, and they still remain poor. His forte is his excessive training up until he succeeds in doing something, not very like Sasuke here.
The thing is if the genetically earned power-ups are to be considered, Naruto's path was more or less decided in the beginning by being a Jinchuuriki and his path as a Shinobi deviated from what it could have been without Kyuubi's presence. Sasuke's power-ups had little to do with his character development. Maybe an exception could be the fuuinjutsu Itachi placed on him, but it fit perfectly within Itachi's over-protective brother manner in general.
---------- Post added at 11:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:10 PM ----------
It's understandable, though. As a kid, he was trying to live up to his father's expectations, while all Naruto was after was getting attention. That's justifiable, he was a lonely orphan.
I know. My argument wasn't about why Naruto was inferior. It was just that he was inferior.Originally Posted by Hakuteiken
All I wanted in regards with Kyuubi and Naruto was Kyuubi working without changing his personality with Naruto. See Part I where Naruto accesses the Kyuubi's chakra for the first time to summon Bunta, for chakra against Neji, and when Kyuubi saves him. That's the kind of partnership I wanted to see, not Kyuubi being a goddamn bunny to Naruto.
Introduction of EMS was a horrible idea, in my opinion. But I guess Kishi wanted to make Itachi weaker (not sure if he planned on Itachi actually being good when the clone fought Kakashi and Naruto) so he could actually be beaten. As far as I see, only Hashirama, Madara, and Rikudou Sennin have any chance of beating Itachi. Itachi could probably beat Minato, Jiraiya, and anyone else, most likely fairly easily. Of course, we don't know if Minato was good at dispelling genjutsu, but nothing of sort was said. It in my opinion was a bad decision to make anyone but Itachi be able to use Susano'o, but I guess it was a necessity to keep up with Naruto's haxxed powers. Wait, Kyuubi's haxxed powers, not Naruto's. Though, it could ahve been possible to make Naruto be able to utilize only Kyuubi's chakra and be the only exception to bijuu mode.
Hell, even Mokuton at the time wasn't as large-scale as it is now. Kishi showed hints of their fight perfectly, mainly taijutsu with some Mokuton and Kyuubi, but nothing over the top like perfect Susano'o or a fucking flower pollen jutsu.
here and read on a few pages.
As for your comments about Kurama saving Naruto, the exact same could be said about Sasuke's Sharingan and CS. The battle against Haku, his Sharingan kept him alive a while. His Sharingan completed in the middle of his battle with Naruto so that he could carry on. His CS allowed him to fight the Sound Genin during the Second Test. His CS2 popped up to save him in the middle of the battle with Naruto. Don't get me wrong, Kurama saves Naruto quite frequently. But Sasuke has had just as many saves as Naruto. But the thing is Kurama is a conscious being, interested in protecting Naruto. Sasuke's saves are just by chance.
I'm just going to put the differences between us down to subjective interpretation, because at this point I think we're unlikely to convince the other or much. We read the manga, and we have invested and have perceptions of characters that have built up over years and are unlikely to change. And, I'm getting slightly exhausted writing so much in these posts.
But I'd just like to point out something:
One could say exactly the same thing about Sasuke. He would've had no chance to compete against the likes of Deidara, Danzo, A, or the other bigs, if he had not gotten CS from Orochimaru, and then Itachi's eyes.Quote:
Last edited by Impossibility; December 02, 2012 at 07:35 AM.