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Translations: Gintama 506 (2)
No, you're disecting the correct order of the manga and putting it at the exact point where Sasuke admits to lacking power. Which is desperate considering the power of Chidori compared to Rasengan has absolutely nothing to do with the overall levels of both ninja. The manga scans I showed was literally the beginning of the fight. But if you want to start from when niether is using Sharingan, CS, or Kyuubi, then you would start here:Originally Posted by Impossibility
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/219/13 No Sharingan, no CS, still goes head to head with Naruto and...
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/219/17 Naruto counters with a waste of chakra
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/219/17 Sasuke reminds him who's faster.
No need for ninjutsu or Sharingan or CS when they're both just going hand to hand. Naruto however resorts to grandiose expense of chakra. The gap has NOT been closed between them. And the only reason he deemed it necessary to go back to CS is because he simply didn't have the chakra to waste on a stalemate jutsu. He needed to hit a decisive blow.
The fact that Sasuke's powerups are dependent on his own control isn't half as bad as having a sentient being deciding to save you. Kurama has to actively acknowledge that Naruto is dead meat without him, and then save him. Sasuke however, with the CS, could activate it at any moment he wanted to. He just had to choose to do so. And the Sharingan's evolution in battle has allowed him to win 1 fight alone, and that was against Bee. And even then, it was more like surviving than winning.Quote:
There's never been a moment where Sasuke's victory was determined by how quickly a new boost of power can manifest itself. Not like with Naruto.
It happened out of nowhere, on this we both agree though
Rasen Shuriken is kinda like a giant Wind RasenganQuote:
It still wasn't enough, considering Sasuke showed to be able to turn it off pretty easily.Quote:
That cloak depended only on Kyuubi's willingness to help Naruto, and it was a minimal fraction of its own power as well
I meant the whole Uzumaki-Senju connection, since they both descends from Rikudou SenninQuote:
^ Exactly, Sasuke isn't tragically left out just like Naruto isn't.Quote:
Both had their huge offering of free power ups, but they also worked for them
And how could he finetune his control without training ?Quote:
Just like how Sasuke needed in-battle experience to awaken Susano'o.
As for the Bijuudama, he did train for it, he just couldn't use it effectively until turning into Bijuu Mode.
Also when Naruto won "without a problem" ? Against the Bijuus? That was him and Kyuubi together with Hachibi and Bee.
Perfect Jinchuurikis are two people in one, you can't say Naruto won alone, just like you can't say Bee won alone against Kisame
What I meant is that life-death situations are pretty common in the ninja work, so that requirement isn't all that great imo.Quote:
The blindness was real, just like Kyuubi's poisonous chakra was real, just like Cursed Seal's danger was real, just like Sage Mode risks were real, point is all of them never, and I mean never costed Sasuke or Naruto fights, they were used as plot devices.Quote:
Did Sasuke lost against Danzou? Or Naruto lost against Pein? No to both, despite Sasuke nearing blindness with Susano'o spammage and Naruto transforming into the 8 tail vesion
Its now him wanting to kill Kyuubi, is him being able to deal massive damage to Kyuubi and also having the capacities to seriously harm him on his own, a feat very few character can claim for themselves.Quote:
And Kyuubi "dominated" not because of attacks or skills, but because, when Naruto stole his chakra, he let his hate fill Naruto. Up until that point, Naruto was the one "dominating".
And yes, its worse since Kyuubi is way stronger than Itachi ( expecially a sick, near-blind one ) and doesn't have problems in killing the enemy.
Considering Mizuki didn't know what was in the scroll, it would've been impossible for him to know, and Naruto did read to himself the first jutsu on the scroll, which was Kage Bushin
Because it was where Kakashi couldn't help Naruto anymore:Quote:
grasped nature manipulation and how to fuse it with the Rasengan, it was Naruto's turn to come up with his new jutsu, developing it even further.
Also see here, Naruto almost completed the jutsu that would let him take Sasuke back.
Which was the objective of the whole training. If Fuuton Rasengan was enough, he would've stopped
And your second comment has to be some sort of joke. Because I think it is clear to anyone who's read the fights between Sasuke and his opponents in Part II of the manga knows that he relied on CS2 to stay alive and then on Itachi's eyes. Explain how he would've survived A, or Danzo, or Kabuto without the MS. The implication that he would've held his own against them without his MS is just ridiculous.
Your statements lays it out, if he hadn't utilised his CS he would not have been able to take down Naruto, and he would've exhausted his chakra, which would've undoubtedly resulted in a loss for him.Quote:
As for your second paragraph, this discussion, the one that as far as I know most of us are involved in, is whether the abilities between these two are foreshadowed or foreseeable. So you're a bit off topic. But for the sake of argument, Sasuke's powers aren't dependent on is control, he didn't control the evolution of his Sharingan. And the evolution of Sasuke's Sharingan allowed him to compete with Naruto in their battle at VotE, for the record. Sasuke also needed a boost to fight the Sound Genin, and he wasn't particularly in control of his CS at the time.
Last edited by Impossibility; December 02, 2012 at 01:56 PM.
Not undoubtedly. It simply would've meant he would need to rely on different means rather than full on overwhelming power. Chidori had the strength to kill Naruto, but not if it can't get past the Rasengan. So he turned the CS on to soften him up for the final blow. Which, he didn't have to do as up until that point he was kicking Naruto around just fine, sans Sharingan. He could've just kept it active and pummeled Naruto until he couldn't move but, whatever. Seriously though, how often do fights end with two ninja clashing with their strongest jutsu? Gai vs. Kisame... and that's about it. Naruto vs. Pein ended with bait and switch. Sasuke vs. Danzou ended with him tricking him into thinking he had the advantage. Sasuke vs. Deidara came down to forcing the enemy to lose composure and kill himself. Simply saying "Naruto would undoubtedly win because his Rasengan is stronger than Sasuke's Chidori, and he can use it more times" doesn't work.Originally Posted by Impossibility
I was under the impression the argument was "Which ninja was more reliant on their deus ex powers? Naruto or Sasuke?" Which ofcourse, even knowing that it's not, it's no more offtopic than your "Naruto trains harder than Sasuke" rant, considering the initial post made by the thread creator. Since no one else seems to care, I'm in no real hurry to get back on topic.Quote:
As for the VOTE fight, Sasuke's Sharingan didn't power up until Naruto powered up. And that was after he stopped using CS1 (the whole kyuubi Naruto thrashing under water was used against a CS-less Sasuke). Just like my initial post in this thread, the Sharingan only powers up in response to other overpowered ninja in the manga. And even then the resulting power up is never gamebreaking, except in the case of Sasuke vs. Bee.
Last edited by ninjabot; December 02, 2012 at 02:50 PM.
And if an ability is spoken of, and trained extensively, that would be an indication that it is not a deus ex power. So my rant, as you call it, was relevant to the discussion at hand. And the argument that Sasuke only powers up in response to other overpowered ninja is hilarious, what do you consider an overpowered ninja? One could say anyone that needs to gain power to defeat a foe is fighting an overpowered ninja. And Naruto's Kyyubi chakra only came out against formidable foes, some of the same foes that Sasuke fought, and lost to. So I'm not sure what that statement is supposed to mean. And just because Sasuke loses after he gets a power up, doesn't change that he got it. And as I've already shown, he also needed his CS against the Sound Genin. And for your argument that Sasuke's power up of his Sharingan only came after Naruto powered up, I'm just going to add that Naruto powered up only after Sasuke had done the same with his CS.
As for Sasuke never using C2 in life-threatening situations, here is one (three pages would suffice). CS2 is somewhat significant in other parts of this battle. And why the focus purely on physical enhancement? The MS offered him multiple abilities that allowed him to compete. And how can you argue that Sasuke has not relied on his MS for survival. A would've ended him if it were not for Susanoo. The same could be said for his battle against Kabuto or Danzo, he'd be dead without his MS abilities.
Sasuke was nearly blind after his fight with Danzou. look at how Sakura nearly got the drop on him, or how Kakashi dominated the fight until Sasuke brought out Susano'o. The Kyuubi chakra hurt Naruto, sure, but it didn't cause him to nearly die.
He didn't. He just needed training to avoid going berserk, otherwise Naruto was able to use the chakra well enough to increase his speed, strength, chakra, and to heal. Unless you're talking about Naruto training to finetune his control after stealing Kyuubi's chakra.Quote:
Somethin he was able to do on his first try without a problem, strong enough to take on at least three bijuu bomb by itself.Quote:
After going Kyuubi against Pain, Naruto had an easier time winning. Same against Haku, to a degree Gaara, Kakuzu, and Neji. Sasuke, despite gaining Mangekyo, had a hard time against Bee and was nearly killed twice, fought against a sick Itachi who didn't go all out, and had to be saved at the kage summit after a difficult fight.
At best, you can argue that the amount of difficult fights Naruto's had after his power-ups were almost as much as Sasuke's. But it's pretty much clear that Sasuke's never had the clear advantage in all his fights despite new powers, like Sharingan, chidori, Cursed Seal, etc.
For? Kinda forgot what this was in reply to. <_<Quote:
Kyuubi's poisonous chakra was countered by Naruto's chakra, and Uzumaki trait of longevity and chakra strength. It didn't affect Naruto in fights, but after fights when he wasn't in danger. The blindness affected Sasuke and Itachi during fights to the point that they were or could have been in trouble (Sasuke's string demon windmill against Itachi and Sakura sneaking up on Sasuke). At best, Kyuubi's poisonous chakra affected the others that were hit with it, liek Sakura.Quote:
Sage Mode's real risks came when Naruto was training. Even then, he still had Pa to whack the crap out of him, so that's one risk gone. Cursed Seal had a high chance of killing Sasuke, and it suppressed his chakra that Sasuke couldn't use his Sharingan freely. But yeah, plot reasons introduced these risks, and plot reasons took it away. Neither were in any danger, although Sasuke was still in more danger due to blindness.
Sasuke was saved by Karin, while Naruto was saved by Kyuubi, Hinata, and Minato.Quote:
Both won because of their brain.
I highly doubt he could have killed Kyuubi even if he wanted to, considering the Kyuubi took FRS like it messed up its fur. But that's true, and another reason why Naruto would have been in trouble was because his mind didn't follow physics. If I recall, Hachibi blocked the bijuu bomb Kyuubi puked at Naruto while he was floating in the air.Quote:
Yeah, but Naruto still had help from his mom, twice. That's one of the reasons why Kyuubi didn't win. And while Kyuubi was stronger, Naruto still had more help than Sasuke did - Hachibi and Kushina, to name two. Yamato was also there to stop the Kyuubi from takin over or going wild. Itachi still used more power than people think against Sasuke. Sasuke was fighting his own, and was still so challenged that he ran out of chakra and couldn't do anything to Itachi even a minute before his death.
Sasuke took about a month to be able to manipulate his nature. Most likely less than that. It took Naruto about a week or two to manipulate his nature. If Sasuke and Naruto were to practice using a high-scaled jutsu, Naruto can just use kage bunshin to speed up the training, and thanks to Kyuubi's chakra, he can last a lot longer than Sasuke.Quote:
It still wasn't foreshadowing because we knew Naruto was gonna master that. Foreshadowing would be more like Naruto being on top of a toad, Sasuke near a snake, adn Sakura with a slug on the cover of a Naruto chapter.
No, fuuton: rasengan was the completed version. Kakashi himself says Minato meant to add his nature to the rasengan, which is what Naruto did with fuuton: rasengan. Naruto just took it further with FRS.Quote:
Funnily enough, that same jutsu would destroy Sasuke, so unless Naruto wanted to take Sasuke's corpse back, it'd have been useless against Sasuke himself. Not only that, but it'd have destroyed Naruto's arm too.
Or, Naruto himself wanted to develop it further because he had a random idea.
Not the same. Three tomoe, MS, and EMS all had the regular Sharingan as a prerequisite and we saw Sasuke being set upon the path to gain them. The toads didn't automatically equal Sage Mode and Jiraiya being Naruto's master had nothing to do with him learning it.
The "focus" on physical enhancements is because of the comparison with Naruto's cloak and Sage Mode, both modes that granted him physical enhancements in order to actually compete against the current level opponents. That is what was originally argued, about how one "wouldn't have had a chance to compete". Sasuke was shown fully capable of fighting the current level of opponents without CS or MS.
I doubt he'd have had the defense necessary to keep up with A's speed, though. Sasuke hasn't fought anyone as fast and strong as A.
There wasn't that great a difference between their speeds though. Outside shunshin, Sasuke was able to keep up, so one would think if he had used shunshin too, the situation would have been the same. Plus he did have Chidori Current, which was like his own weak version of Shinra Tensei.
Shunshin would have helped him, but in close quarters, Sasuke wouldn't have a way to defend himself from liger bomb or even a raiton chop if it came out of nowhere. I don't think chidori current would work on Raikage, and even if it did, he could just shrug it off like he did with chidori and cutting his hand off.
Well, presuming he got stuck as he did in the actual series. Sasuke didn't end up in trouble with close range til he got his hand stuck in Ee's cloak, which is pretty specific circumstances. The paralyzing effect wouldn't have worked, but Chidori Current was also shown capable of blasting an opponent backward, which shouldn't have not worked.
The toads didn't automatically equal SM, but Naruto's summoning contract with the toads and Jiraiya's use of the ability strongly suggested that Naruto might gain its use.
What are you arguing? It was clear that Sasuke's CS2 was integral in surviving his fight with Deidara. And the fact that some MS moves are counterable is irrelevant, as is the fact that Sasuke doesn't rely entirely on MS during his battles. And he fought without the use of MS against the individuals you've listed until he realised that he would die if he didn't utilise the techniques.
And there is no reason to point solely to physical enhancements. It is not as though physical stats such as speed, and strength, are the only factors that determine the outcome of the battle. What was originally argued was that Sasuke would not have been able to compete against some of the individuals he fought without his new abilities, and it clear by the number of times he has had to resort to these techniques to survive that that is the case.
Even the throwable FRS was shown
We can argue that he could take it more easy, but without a doubt he intended to teach Naruto the Rasengan in that journeyQuote:
They didn't theorize Rasen Shuriken, it was Naruto doing all the work.Quote:
If you notice, Kakashi didn't have the slightest idea on what Naruto was doing, when he used FRS the first time. The whole training was for Naruto to develop his own jutsu
If the Kyuubi is trapped, inside a Jinchuuriki it doesn't, as we saw with MadaraQuote:
This, we don't know, so its useless to make assumptionsQuote:
Did he suffer any crippling injuries for being blind? No he didn't, when it mattered most he was able to come out on top. And Naruto being an Uzumaki doesn't mean his life didn't shorten.
And in Oro's lair we saw how wounded Naruto was, he couldn't run without feeling tired, Orochimaru himself noted he was out of breath, and had to rest a lot with Sai
That's what I'm talking aboutQuote:
He almost did it during trainingQuote:
How, if Pein was still at full power and Naruto was actually tired? It saved him from Chibaku Tensei, but for the rest Pein was at full power. And he did collapse afterwards.
The only "easy" win I can think of Naruto pulled off was against Third Raikage.
The others were pretty close
The requirement to unlock a SharinganQuote:
And Suigetsu, and Juugo, and ObitoQuote:
So yeah, both won but both got their ass saved by others
Itachi could've destroyed Sasuke if he wasn't holding back by plot, come on, we saw against Kabuto what sort of beast an healty, non-blind Itachi can be.Quote:
Sasuke was impressive, no one's doubting that, but he really wasn't up to Itachi's league
Actually the whole KB thing is his own, the only thing Kyuubi does is limiting the fatigue on his brain derived from dispelling 1000 clones at once.Quote:
If Naruto would do it smartly, like 1 clone at a time, I doubt he would need Kyuubi's help.
First chapter, like I told Rikudou King is pretty difficult to foreshadow something when not even a chapter went downQuote:
I really never understood that as well, I mean if Fuuton Rasengan and Chidori would collide, Sasuke's arm would be blown away.Quote:
Naruto's method of bringing Sasuke back always seemed... You know, retarded.
Bringing Sasuke back in a casket isn't really the best method