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Thread: Was things really necessary?

  1. #106
    MangaHelper MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Rikudou King's Avatar
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    Re: Was things really necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    If you include outside saves, or random events, that lead to increased ability or restoration then you'd include Itachi handing his eyes over to Sasuke, Zetsu's spore technique providing Sasuke chakra, Karin restoring Sasuke with her heal bite. And your constant argument that Sasuke was known to be on the road to MS is not the case. Prior to his battle to Itachi, we had no idea of the sacrifice that Itachi would make, and the requirement for the attainment of the MS was believed to have been the death of the Naruto, the title character of the manga. Neither of these events were foreshadowed to occur.
    Now your just being silly. There's a clear difference between being rescued in battle just for the sake of being rescued, and someone dropping in magically to grant you a new power. None of the times Sasuke was saved had another to do with being powered up. If that had been the case, what I had been arguing, then there would have been much more examples for Naruto involving times when he was rescued, like against Pain with Hinata and against Kakuzu with Yamato. But that's not a problem. The issue was never over something so common and mundane as that.

    Us not knowing the specifics doesn't change the fact that it was greatly implied that Sasuke would achieve MS. We're talking foreshadowing, not explicitness.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    The toads didn't automatically equal SM, but Naruto's summoning contract with the toads and Jiraiya's use of the ability strongly suggested that Naruto might gain its use.
    No it really didn't, especially when we were shown him going in a completely different direction via the Kyuubi's power. Not to mention that such logic would imply the same for the other toads and Minato possessing it, or all the snakes and their summoners. I'm pretty sure there's nothing suggesting that Sasuke even has a chance of gaining Sage Mode, despite him fitting all those criteria too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    What are you arguing? It was clear that Sasuke's CS2 was integral in surviving his fight with Deidara. And the fact that some MS moves are counterable is irrelevant, as is the fact that Sasuke doesn't rely entirely on MS during his battles. And he fought without the use of MS against the individuals you've listed until he realised that he would die if he didn't utilise the techniques.
    Your comment, which I previously mentioned, was that without them he "wouldn't have had a chance to compete". Your exact words. CS2 was not "integral" to surviving in his fight against Deidara. He rarely used it and showed he had other options for survival. Something integral would have been his lightning nature, which was actually something shown that he required to even fight. And the very fact that Sasuke doesn't rely solely upon MS to fight those battles discounts the original argument about him not having any chance without it. He clearly had more then a chance if he was capable of fighting as he did without using MS instantly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    And there is no reason to point solely to physical enhancements. It is not as though physical stats such as speed, and strength, are the only factors that determine the outcome of the battle. What was originally argued was that Sasuke would not have been able to compete against some of the individuals he fought without his new abilities, and it clear by the number of times he has had to resort to these techniques to survive that that is the case.
    Yes there is. The whole argument started over the idea that one wouldn't have even a chance at competing. Your words. It takes more then a technique or two to compete against a high level opponent, otherwise someone like Konohamaru could be argued to be able to match all of Naruto's feats, which is clearly crap. In addition, you seem to be ignoring that Sasuke competed just fine without requiring CS and MS. It's not as if Sasuke was incapable of doing anything til he employed those powers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    I already explained how Sage Mode wasn't pulled out on the fly, just like everything else bar Bijuu Mode and Kuchiyose.
    Even the throwable FRS was shown
    I meant in regards to Naruto learning it. I can actually agree about FRS becoming throwable. That was mentioned and built up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    We can argue that he could take it more easy, but without a doubt he intended to teach Naruto the Rasengan in that journey
    I suppose it could be seen that way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    They didn't theorize Rasen Shuriken, it was Naruto doing all the work.
    If you notice, Kakashi didn't have the slightest idea on what Naruto was doing, when he used FRS the first time. The whole training was for Naruto to develop his own jutsu
    The fact that Kakshi didn't know about it shows it came out of nowhere, since while the training was for Naruto learning a new technique (by combining his nature with the Rasngan), it was hardly as if Kakashi sent him off to figure it out on his own. Kakashi pretty much assisted hum step by step, and I don't recall any sort of indication that Kakashi expected Naruto to figure it out all on his own. It wasn't like Kakashi told Naruto that he would show Naruto a way to train and then leave the rest up to him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    If the Kyuubi is trapped, inside a Jinchuuriki it doesn't, as we saw with Madara
    Madara didn't disprove that, only that the Kyuubi couldn't be summoned out of a host. Obito also showed that the Kyuubi could be affected within a host by the Sharingan.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    This, we don't know, so its useless to make assumptions
    Was just giving an example that could make it actually reasonable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post

  2. #107
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    Re: Was things really necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    Now your just being silly. There's a clear difference between being rescued in battle just for the sake of being rescued, and someone dropping in magically to grant you a new power. None of the times Sasuke was saved had another to do with being powered up. If that had been the case, what I had been arguing, then there would have been much more examples for Naruto involving times when he was rescued, like against Pain with Hinata and against Kakuzu with Yamato. But that's not a problem. The issue was never over something so common and mundane as that.

    Us not knowing the specifics doesn't change the fact that it was greatly implied that Sasuke would achieve MS. We're talking foreshadowing, not explicitness.

    No it really didn't, especially when we were shown him going in a completely different direction via the Kyuubi's power. Not to mention that such logic would imply the same for the other toads and Minato possessing it, or all the snakes and their summoners. I'm pretty sure there's nothing suggesting that Sasuke even has a chance of gaining Sage Mode, despite him fitting all those criteria too.

    Your comment, which I previously mentioned, was that without them he "wouldn't have had a chance to compete". Your exact words. CS2 was not "integral" to surviving in his fight against Deidara. He rarely used it and showed he had other options for survival. Something integral would have been his lightning nature, which was actually something shown that he required to even fight. And the very fact that Sasuke doesn't rely solely upon MS to fight those battles discounts the original argument about him not having any chance without it. He clearly had more then a chance if he was capable of fighting as he did without using MS instantly.

    Yes there is. The whole argument started over the idea that one wouldn't have even a chance at competing. Your words. It takes more then a technique or two to compete against a high level opponent, otherwise someone like Konohamaru could be argued to be able to match all of Naruto's feats, which is clearly crap. In addition, you seem to be ignoring that Sasuke competed just fine without requiring CS and MS. It's not as if Sasuke was incapable of doing anything til he employed those powers.
    I fail to see the difference between your examples, and mine. His parents intervening in the matter of his seal didn't grant him some sort of new ability, it just put the Kyuubi back in his cage. And if Orochimaru can be revived from his CS, I don't see it as even remotely unusual that his parents could imprint themselves onto his seal. Likewise, the meeting with the Bijuu didn't give him new abilities they just gave him some chakra, which is exactly what Zetsu did when he popped up between Mei and Sasuke seconds before Sasuke was to meet his demise.

    As for the MS, when was it implied that he would achieve it. Just because many readers wanted Sasuke to gain the MS, doesn't mean the manga foreshadowed such an event.

    We saw nothing to suggest that Naruto was going to stick with utilising only the Kyuubi chakra post-timeskip. After he injured Sakura in his battle against Orochimaru, he wasn't interested in utilising the Kyuubi's chakra because of his utter lack of control. The first real effort to control the Kyuubi came after he had already learned SM. And there's no chance of Sasuke attaining Snake SM< probably because he has no interest in learning it. Add that to the fact that the snakes probably aren't particularly fond of him, and I'd say his circumstances are very different from Naruto's.

    As for Sasuke v Deidara, you point to Sasuke's alternative options for survival, yet Sasuke thought it necessary to utilise the ability. And just because he didn't use it frequently doesn't mean that when he used it that it wasn't necessary for his survival. And your argument that Sasuke doesn't rely solely on MS techniques, or during the first few moments of the battle, to survive indicates that it is not necessary for him to compete is nonsensical. Without the abilities he would lose quite easily. I don't know why it is so difficult to see that. By your reasoning, SM wasn't necessary for Naruto to compete against Pain because he didn't utilise it for the entirety of the battle. And it doesn't take more than one or two techniques to fight against top-notch opponents, if the two techniques are impressive enough they'd probably suffice, Sasuke's MS techniques for example. And your argument utilising Konohomaru's use of Rasengan is just asinine. Sasuke was capable of accomplishing quite a bit without the use of his CS or MS, but that doesn't change the fact that the MS allowed him to compete against his later opponents.

  3. #108
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    Re: Was things really necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    I fail to see the difference between your examples, and mine. His parents intervening in the matter of his seal didn't grant him some sort of new ability, it just put the Kyuubi back in his cage. And if Orochimaru can be revived from his CS, I don't see it as even remotely unusual that his parents could imprint themselves onto his seal. Likewise, the meeting with the Bijuu didn't give him new abilities they just gave him some chakra, which is exactly what Zetsu did when he popped up between Mei and Sasuke seconds before Sasuke was to meet his demise.
    How can't you see the difference? They both stopped Naruto from being taken over, along with Minato restoring the seal back to it's original state and Kushina using her ability to help Naruto defeat the Kyuubi. You do realize that before we were told, we never had any reason to believe that either of them had placed any sort of chakra within Naruto. We directly saw Sasuke absorb Orochimaru. And it's pretty obviously given the situation that the Bijuu's gift is gonna have later implications beyond just chakra.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    As for the MS, when was it implied that he would achieve it. Just because many readers wanted Sasuke to gain the MS, doesn't mean the manga foreshadowed such an
    Itachi statement about only someone with the same eyes could defeat him and later being shown telling Sasuke to achieve it. It was clear that Sasuke would have eventually gained it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    We saw nothing to suggest that Naruto was going to stick with utilising only the Kyuubi chakra post-timeskip. After he injured Sakura in his battle against Orochimaru, he wasn't interested in utilising the Kyuubi's chakra because of his utter lack of control. The first real effort to control the Kyuubi came after he had already learned SM. And there's no chance of Sasuke attaining Snake SM< probably because he has no interest in learning it. Add that to the fact that the snakes probably aren't particularly fond of him, and I'd say his circumstances are very different from Naruto's.
    He spent the timeskip training to use it, employed it each battle, and had it brought up by Kakashi and used it during his training for the FRS. Even after the incident with Sakura, he was shown still using it. Claiming that Sasuke wouldn't learn it because he has no interest in learning it is a cop out, considering Naruto sure has heck didn't show any interest in learning it before he was spoken too. Neither Orochimaru or Kabuto were nicer to the snakes either, didn't prevent them from using it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    As for Sasuke v Deidara, you point to Sasuke's alternative options for survival, yet Sasuke thought it necessary to utilise the ability. And just because he didn't use it frequently doesn't mean that when he used it that it wasn't necessary for his survival. And your argument that Sasuke doesn't rely solely on MS techniques, or during the first few moments of the battle, to survive indicates that it is not necessary for him to compete is nonsensical. Without the abilities he would lose quite easily. I don't know why it is so difficult to see that. By your reasoning, SM wasn't necessary for Naruto to compete against Pain because he didn't utilise it for the entirety of the battle. And it doesn't take more than one or two techniques to fight against top-notch opponents, if the two techniques are impressive enough they'd probably suffice, Sasuke's MS techniques for example. And your argument utilising Konohomaru's use of Rasengan is just asinine. Sasuke was capable of accomplishing quite a bit without the use of his CS or MS, but that doesn't change the fact that the MS allowed him to compete against his later opponents.
    So? Your argument was that he had no chance of competing, yet it's shown he did have other options in order to compete. And I already showed CS2 wasn't necessary for his survival. Not sure how you're coming to some conclusion that avoiding a bomb in the middle of battle was somehow the moment of danger for him. Honestly, that point would have gone to the summoning of Manda to escape Deidara's final attack. Had he used CS2 to counter that, then you could have had a point.

    It's not nonsensical. Sasuke didn't merely fight for a single moment before calling upon MS. He fought for sometime, pushing his opponents into tougher roles before using MS. Naruto fought nearly entirety with Sage Mode. It's the reverse of what had been going on with Sasuke. We've seen just having an hax technique is not enough and that the majority of powerful ninjas are powerful in addition to having said techniques. My example about Konohamaru is prefect for this situation, as that's exactly what you're trying to claim about Sasuke, that only due to his techniques could he manage, despite ignoring evidence showing otherwise. He didn't need MS to fight on their level. Heck, if that was the case, then he would never have gotten far with Itachi...

  4. #109
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    Re: Was things really necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    And it's pretty obviously given the situation that the Bijuu's gift is gonna have later implications beyond just chakra.
    In that case, if he gains an ability, we can agree that it is foreshadowing.

    Quote Quote:
    Itachi statement about only someone with the same eyes could defeat him and later being shown telling Sasuke to achieve it.
    Because villains don't make statements of this sort, ever. Sasuke didn't have the same eyes when he 'defeated' Itachi, soooo.

    Quote Quote:
    Claiming that Sasuke wouldn't learn it because he has no interest in learning it is a cop out, considering Naruto sure has heck didn't show any interest in learning it before he was spoken too. Neither Orochimaru or Kabuto were nicer to the snakes either, didn't prevent them from using it.
    I guess I could've been more clear, Sasuke would actively oppose the idea of becoming a snake sage, especially since he is now a hawk guy. And Orochimaru and Kabuto never offered up the boss of the snakes as a sacrifice.

    Quote Quote:
    Not sure how you're coming to some conclusion that avoiding a bomb in the middle of battle was somehow the moment of danger for him.
    Avoiding a bomb is rather important, have you seen what Deidara's bombs do to a person.

    Quote Quote:
    We've seen just having an hax technique is not enough and that the majority of powerful ninjas are powerful in addition to having said techniques.
    Gaara seems to have gotten somewhere using the sand manipulation.

    Quote Quote:
    My example about Konohamaru is prefect for this situation, as that's exactly what you're trying to claim about Sasuke, that only due to his techniques could he manage, despite ignoring evidence showing otherwise.
    No its not. Rasengan is a singular offensive technique, Sasuke's MS includes three ridiculous techniques on entirely different levels. All techniques are not equal. And let's see, without Amaterasu, or Susanoo, how does Sasuke register as any semblance of competition for A?

    Quote Quote:
    He didn't need MS to fight on their level. Heck, if that was the case, then he would never have gotten far with Itachi...
    I thought everyone had realised that this fight was staged by a dying brother hoping to aid his brother.
    Last edited by Impossibility; December 03, 2012 at 09:11 PM.

  5. #110
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    Re: Was things really necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    In that case, if he gains an ability, we can agree that it is foreshadowing.
    That future ability would be foreshadowed sure, doesn't change the current topic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Because villains don't make statements of this sort, ever. Sasuke didn't have the same eyes when he 'defeated' Itachi, soooo.
    When has such a statement been made in this series like that? Soooo what? Like I said, we're talking foreshadowing here, not explicitness.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    I guess I could've been more clear, Sasuke would actively oppose the idea of becoming a snake sage, especially since he is now a hawk guy. And Orochimaru and Kabuto never offered up the boss of the snakes as a sacrifice.
    Because Sasuke threw away everything he gained from Orochimaru... And Manda despised both Orochimaru and Kabuto, so it was pretty much the same. heck, not as if he would have been capable of telling anyone who killed him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Avoiding a bomb is rather important, have you seen what Deidara's bombs do to a person.
    As if that was his only means of avoiding said bombs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Gaara seems to have gotten somewhere using the sand manipulation.
    Gaara's weaknesses have been well documented and numerous times we've seen speed overcome it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    No its not. Rasengan is a singular offensive technique, Sasuke's MS includes three ridiculous techniques on entirely different levels. All techniques are not equal. And let's see, without Amaterasu, or Susanoo, how does Sasuke register as any semblance of competition for A?
    Konohamaru has Rasengan and Shadow Clones, Naruto's main two techniques. Ridiculous? Hardly. They're at most mid-tier on the hax rank. As for competition: Great Dragon Fire/Kirin for offense, genjutsu/Chidori Current for defense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    I thought everyone had realised that this fight was staged by a dying brother hoping to aid his brother.
    You do realize the whole point of the battle was for Itachi to make sure Sasuke could replace him as Konoha's protector, right? Thus the reason he set Sasuke on the path of hatred in the first place. Otherwise he could have simply had Sasuke "kill" him long before then and not use medicine to delay. It's the reason he employed Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi later on.

  6. #111
    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: Was things really necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    Well, presuming he got stuck as he did in the actual series. Sasuke didn't end up in trouble with close range til he got his hand stuck in Ee's cloak, which is pretty specific circumstances. The paralyzing effect wouldn't have worked, but Chidori Current was also shown capable of blasting an opponent backward, which shouldn't have not worked.
    Why wouldn't he go close range when chidori's his only means of dealing a death shot or damaging move? I dunno if chidori current can blow an opponent backward, wasn't it the damage caused that did that? If Sai and Naruto didn't feel the pain, then they wouldn't have been pushed back. I could be remembering wrong though.

    plus, I don't see Raikage bein affected by that at all because of his raiton and ability to withstand pain.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    Did Sasuke die?
    Did he suffer any crippling injuries for being blind? No he didn't, when it mattered most he was able to come out on top. And Naruto being an Uzumaki doesn't mean his life didn't shorten.
    And in Oro's lair we saw how wounded Naruto was, he couldn't run without feeling tired, Orochimaru himself noted he was out of breath, and had to rest a lot with Sai
    He could have, if Kishi wanted him to. Nothing could have saved Sasuke. If we're talkign about Sasuke vs. Kakashi, Sakura, and Naruto. Hell, Naruto could have killed him there while Kakashi distracted Tobi.

    Not really, he was still saved. He still had more chances of dying, and he had serious trouble against Kakashi. Naruto still doesn't need to worry since he can die at a normal age or even a bit later. Instead of dying when he's 120, he can die at 90 or something, which is still lengthy.

    So? All that wound and tiredness went away when it was convenient. All that happened was him falling when he wasn't really in danger, if I recall.



    Quote Quote:
    That's what I'm talking about
    Naruto trained for that in regards to kyuubi's chakra. I won't disagree with that. That's the chakra mode training I defend, since Naruto is the one controlling the chakra completely, not Kyuubi.



    Hurr.

    It's still different from doing it in bijuu mode. He still pulled off enough power to match like, three or five bijuu bomb in his first try, without trainign for it in bijuu mode.

    Quote Quote:
    How, if Pein was still at full power and Naruto was actually tired? It saved him from Chibaku Tensei, but for the rest Pein was at full power. And he did collapse afterwards.

    The only "easy" win I can think of Naruto pulled off was against Third Raikage.
    The others were pretty close
    Pain was never at full power, he used a massive Shinra Tensei and fought Konoha and Naruto, using up a lot of chakra. Shinra Tensei took tons of chakra from him, as we see from him bleeding and coughing. If Pain or Nagato was at full power, Chibaku Tensei would not have collapsed and Nagato would not have died from using up his chakra. Naruto still had more power than Nagato at the end, and even more thanks to the Kyuubi.

    Dunno, he did well against Muu with some assistance, where Oonoki had tons of trouble, and managed to take out other ET by surprise buttsecks no jutsu.



    Quote Quote:
    The requirement to unlock a Sharingan
    It's not life or death, as Sasuke unlocked it in rage against Itachi. Obito unlocked his in concern for Kakashi.



    Quote Quote:
    And Suigetsu, and Juugo, and Obito

    So yeah, both won but both got their ass saved by others
    Against Danzou? It was just Karin, and that was only at the end. At the kage summit, Sasuke was outnumbered.



    Quote Quote:
    Itachi could've destroyed Sasuke if he wasn't holding back by plot, come on, we saw against Kabuto what sort of beast an healty, non-blind Itachi can be.
    Sasuke was impressive, no one's doubting that, but he really wasn't up to Itachi's league
    .. your point? We all know that. O_o Very few can beat Itachi in a fight, most likely Madara and Hashirama.



    Quote Quote:
    Actually the whole KB thing is his own, the only thing Kyuubi does is limiting the fatigue on his brain derived from dispelling 1000 clones at once.
    If Naruto would do it smartly, like 1 clone at a time, I doubt he would need Kyuubi's help.
    What? how? What Kyuubi does is give Naruto more chakra if he needs it. The only time I remember Naruto constantly using Kyuubi's chakra for tajuu kage bunshin was when he was training for fuuton, otherwise it's usually his own chakra.



    Quote Quote:
    First chapter, like I told Rikudou King is pretty difficult to foreshadow something when not even a chapter went down
    Still not a foreshadow.



    Quote Quote:
    I really never understood that as well, I mean if Fuuton Rasengan and Chidori would collide, Sasuke's arm would be blown away.
    Naruto's method of bringing Sasuke back always seemed... You know, retarded.
    Bringing Sasuke back in a casket isn't really the best method
    Fuuton: rasengan wouldn't really destroy Sasuke's arms, not that badly anyway. of course, I'm assuming that based on rasengan with some power, and Kakashi's arm after the fuuton: rasengan.

    Which is why I wondered what made him do FRS. <_<

  7. #112
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    Re: Was things really necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    Why wouldn't he go close range when chidori's his only means of dealing a death shot or damaging move? I dunno if chidori current can blow an opponent backward, wasn't it the damage caused that did that? If Sai and Naruto didn't feel the pain, then they wouldn't have been pushed back. I could be remembering wrong though.

    plus, I don't see Raikage bein affected by that at all because of his raiton and ability to withstand pain.
    I wouldn't say Chidori was his only damaging move. I'm sure both the Great Dragon Fire and Kirin would be just as viable options. I don't believe one would have to feel the damage to be effected by it's effect. The force itself should be enough, even if Ee won't be paralyzed.

  8. #113
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    Re: Was things really necessary?

    Kirin requires a lot of effort to set up, and Sasuke can't take his attention off Raikage to prep for Kirin. Plus, didn't he avoid Juugo's point-blank cannon? He can avoid Great Dragon Fire as well.

    Does it have force without the pain, though? Because I only remember both Naruto and Sai being pushed back because of the pain from chidori current.

  9. #114
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    Re: Was things really necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    So he defended himself from one of Deidara's attacks while Deidara played around. Yay for him. Doesn't change the fact that when Deidara decided to get serious, he was forced to utilise his CS2.

    Quote Quote:
    Gaara's weaknesses have been well documented and numerous times we've seen speed overcome it.
    Almost everyone has weaknesses. The argument wasn't over perfection, it was over whether an individual could reach the upper echelons of ninja on one technique alone. Gaara has.

    Quote Quote:
    Konohamaru has Rasengan and Shadow Clones, Naruto's main two techniques. Ridiculous? Hardly. They're at most mid-tier on the hax rank. As for competition: Great Dragon Fire/Kirin for offense, genjutsu/Chidori Current for defense.
    Naruto's two main techniques? Yeah, but Naruto has quite a few variants of Rasengan, Rasen Shurinken, their Shadow Clone Techniques are utterly incomparable, SM, Kyyubi, and just better stats in general. As for Great Dragon Fire, it wouldn't touch A, and even A allowed himself to be struck by it, it probably wouldn't have any effect. Kirin has no chance. We've seen that Sasuke can't utilise genjutsu against A, and Chidori Current is completely useless against A's lightning armour.

    Quote Quote:
    You do realize the whole point of the battle was for Itachi to make sure Sasuke could replace him as Konoha's protector, right? Thus the reason he set Sasuke on the path of hatred in the first place. Otherwise he could have simply had Sasuke "kill" him long before then and not use medicine to delay. It's the reason he employed Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi later on.
    It may have been that he chose to wait until he could rid Sasuke of Orochimaru's influence entirely, or it may have been he just had other stuff to do first. The reality is that Itachi never intended to win the fight, and if he did Sasuke would be dead. And by the way, what does their battle have to do with his later battles, other than him getting the MS?

  10. #115
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Hakuteiken's Avatar
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    Re: Was things really necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    It may have been that he chose to wait until he could rid Sasuke of Orochimaru's influence entirely, or it may have been he just had other stuff to do first. The reality is that Itachi never intended to win the fight, and if he did Sasuke would be dead. And by the way, what does their battle have to do with his later battles, other than him getting the MS?
    That's a fact implied by Obito.
    And obviously he had no intention to win this fight from the beginning.

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    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: Was things really necessary?

    It still doesn't mean Itachi held back 90% of his power. it means Itachi didn't go all out, like he used 90% of his power instead of 100% of his power, or didn't use any chance he had to kill Sasuke when he could have. Itachi didn't wait to get rid of Orochimaru, he gave Sasuke enough challenge to get rid of Orochimaru without killing Sasuke.

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    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Hakuteiken's Avatar
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    Re: Was things really necessary?

    Even if Itachi didn't hold back, he probably didn't even have half of his power initially.
    Weakened by disease, drained chakra reserves, and on top of that, a massive loss in eyesight.
    Sasuke wasn't in Itachi's league at that moment, that's what it is.

    Same thing. He chose to wait for Sasuke to ran out of chakra instead of immediately killing jim off.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member darkprince0521's Avatar
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    Re: Was things really necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    When has such a statement been made in this series like that? Soooo what? Like I said, we're talking foreshadowing here, not explicitness.
    if that statement was a foreshadowing, then sasuke would have gained MS before that fight. because he didn't gain MS before the fight, thus naming that statement as foreshadowing will be untrue.
    Naruto Forever


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    MH Senpai 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Uchiha_Blood's Avatar
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    Re: Was things really necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    The fact that Kakshi didn't know about it shows it came out of nowhere, since while the training was for Naruto learning a new technique (by combining his nature with the Rasngan), it was hardly as if Kakashi sent him off to figure it out on his own. Kakashi pretty much assisted hum step by step, and I don't recall any sort of indication that Kakashi expected Naruto to figure it out all on his own. It wasn't like Kakashi told Naruto that he would show Naruto a way to train and then leave the rest up to him.
    Naruto doesn't need me anymore, so I left him with another captain.


    Think of Fuuton Rasengan as a Fire Chidori ( its impossible, but bear with me ):
    they are simply a different version of the same jutsu, its not something new ( like we can't call new Oodama Rasengan ).
    Fuuton Rasenshuriken its a total new jutsu, which Naruto created alone and, as I showed, that was the goal of the training

    Quote Quote:
    Madara didn't disprove that, only that the Kyuubi couldn't be summoned out of a host. Obito also showed that the Kyuubi could be affected within a host by the Sharingan.
    Do note that Obito did so when the seal was falling, otherwise he wouldn't be able to, as Kushina confirmed prior that.
    Naruto's seal is strong, that's why Kyuubi can't be took from him

    Quote Quote:


    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    He could have, if Kishi wanted him to. Nothing could have saved Sasuke. If we're talkign about Sasuke vs. Kakashi, Sakura, and Naruto. Hell, Naruto could have killed him there while Kakashi distracted Tobi.

    Not really, he was still saved. He still had more chances of dying, and he had serious trouble against Kakashi. Naruto still doesn't need to worry since he can die at a normal age or even a bit later. Instead of dying when he's 120, he can die at 90 or something, which is still lengthy.

    So? All that wound and tiredness went away when it was convenient. All that happened was him falling when he wasn't really in danger, if I recall.
    You nailed it, "if Kishi wanted to".
    Realistically both Naruto and Sasuke should've died at least 3-4 times over, but they didn't, why?
    Plot shield

    Also 30 years lost of life is nothing?
    Ask me if I want to live 30 years longer

    Quote Quote:
    Hurr.

    It's still different from doing it in bijuu mode. He still pulled off enough power to match like, three or five bijuu bomb in his first try, without trainign for it in bijuu mode.
    How so?
    He knew the process, he trained for it, he just couldn't hold it because its human form wasn't strong enough. Also in Bijuu mode Naruto and Kyuubi's chakras merges, so its pretty likely Kyuubi helped him out with control, if he couldn't do it.

    Quote Quote:
    Pain was never at full power, he used a massive Shinra Tensei and fought Konoha and Naruto, using up a lot of chakra. Shinra Tensei took tons of chakra from him, as we see from him bleeding and coughing. If Pain or Nagato was at full power, Chibaku Tensei would not have collapsed and Nagato would not have died from using up his chakra. Naruto still had more power than Nagato at the end, and even more thanks to the Kyuubi.

    Dunno, he did well against Muu with some assistance, where Oonoki had tons of trouble, and managed to take out other ET by surprise buttsecks no jutsu.
    Pein's only limit was when he couldn't use Shinra Tensei, otherwise he was always fine, since his body wasn't damaged and Nagato's own body still sustained him with enough chakra to revive an entire village.

    Against Muu it was more a tag team between him and Gaara, and taking Muu by surprise with the lenghty arm

    Quote Quote:
    It's not life or death, as Sasuke unlocked it in rage against Itachi. Obito unlocked his in concern for Kakashi.
    They were still in an environment they perceived was a threat for their lifes:
    Sasuke was facing the one who murdered his whole clan, Obito was in the middle of a war, against an invisible opponent while Kakashi was wounded.

    Quote Quote:
    .. your point? We all know that. O_o Very few can beat Itachi in a fight, most likely Madara and Hashirama.
    Point is, if Itachi so much wanted to he could've destroyed Sasuke here and then. Kyuubi wanted to squash Naruto, but he wasn't able to.
    Add to this the difference in power between Kyuubi and Itachi, and you can see that Naruto had it rougher

    Quote Quote:
    What? how? What Kyuubi does is give Naruto more chakra if he needs it. The only time I remember Naruto constantly using Kyuubi's chakra for tajuu kage bunshin was when he was training for fuuton, otherwise it's usually his own chakra.
    You misunderstood Naruto's chakra for KB is his own, Kyuubi's regenerative abilities enabled Naruto to just pass out and not have his brain melted by dispelling 1000 clones at once.
    Which would be avoided by Naruto dispelling one at a time

    Quote Quote:
    Still not a foreshadow.
    Its the best foreshadow you can expect from the first chapter

    Quote Quote:
    Fuuton: rasengan wouldn't really destroy Sasuke's arms, not that badly anyway. of course, I'm assuming that based on rasengan with some power, and Kakashi's arm after the fuuton: rasengan.

    Which is why I wondered what made him do FRS. <_<
    It actually would, since Raiton < Fuuton and Fuuton Rasengan is even a grade higher than Chidori, meaning Sasuke would face a superior jutsu while having the elemental disadvantage.

    A throwable rasengan that explodes?
    Who wouldn't want it ?

  17. #120
    MangaHelper MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Rikudou King's Avatar
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    Re: Was things really necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    Kirin requires a lot of effort to set up, and Sasuke can't take his attention off Raikage to prep for Kirin. Plus, didn't he avoid Juugo's point-blank cannon? He can avoid Great Dragon Fire as well.
    Not that much effort, just blowing some fireballs into the sky. He had plenty of opportunities without needing to worry about Ee's attention. Sasuke could predict regular Ee's movements, which is why he landed two blows on him. So he shouldn't have had much issue landing the fireball either.

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    Does it have force without the pain, though? Because I only remember both Naruto and Sai being pushed back because of the pain from chidori current.
    Sure. The current has enough force to break stone, so it's not simply causing pain and having them react.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    So he defended himself from one of Deidara's attacks while Deidara played around. Yay for him. Doesn't change the fact that when Deidara decided to get serious, he was forced to utilise his CS2.
    What? When Deidara became serious, Sasuke didn't use CS2 at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Almost everyone has weaknesses. The argument wasn't over perfection, it was over whether an individual could reach the upper echelons of ninja on one technique alone. Gaara has.
    Um, Gaara's sand manipulation is an ability that grants him multiple different attacks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Naruto's two main techniques? Yeah, but Naruto has quite a few variants of Rasengan, Rasen Shurinken, their Shadow Clone Techniques are utterly incomparable, SM, Kyyubi, and just better stats in general. As for Great Dragon Fire, it wouldn't touch A, and even A allowed himself to be struck by it, it probably wouldn't have any effect. Kirin has no chance. We've seen that Sasuke can't utilise genjutsu against A, and Chidori Current is completely useless against A's lightning armour.
    Your claim was that Sasuke could do what he did because he had those two techniques, so if you acknowledge that it takes more then two powerful techniques for Konohamaru, then the same would hold true for Sasuke.

    Sure it would, as we saw Sasuke could predict Ee's moment. And it holds the power to punch through solid rock. It may not kill him, but it would do damage. Kirin took out an entire mountain and broke an imprefect Susanoo, there's no reason it wouldn't take Ee out. Sasuke never tried a genjutsu against Ee, who we know can be caught by one, and the only part of the Chidori Current that is useless is the paralyzation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    It may have been that he chose to wait until he could rid Sasuke of Orochimaru's influence entirely, or it may have been he just had other stuff to do first. The reality is that Itachi never intended to win the fight, and if he did Sasuke would be dead. And by the way, what does their battle have to do with his later battles, other than him getting the MS?
    Except that doing it before would have avoided the whole Orochimaru situation in the first place and Itachi wasn't doing anything inbetween. Not intending to win does not mean purposely losing. Itachi never intended to win before, but that didn't mean he let Sasuke land a hit. Instead, he kicked Sasuke's ass and sent him out for more power. One can't "go easy" with using Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu. And again, your words were he had no chance of competing with it, yet we see outright him competing with them.

    Quote Originally Posted by darkprince0521 View Post
    if that statement was a foreshadowing, then sasuke would have gained MS before that fight. because he didn't gain MS before the fight, thus naming that statement as foreshadowing will be untrue.
    Aside from foreshadowing being the hint that something could happen, not a specific outline of what exactly will happen, how is it untrue? As so many people like to claim, "Sasuke won because Itachi allowed him to", so Itachi's original statement about being defeated remains true.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    Naruto doesn't need me anymore, so I left him with another captain.


    Think of Fuuton Rasengan as a Fire Chidori ( its impossible, but bear with me ):
    they are simply a different version of the same jutsu, its not something new ( like we can't call new Oodama Rasengan ).
    Fuuton Rasenshuriken its a total new jutsu, which Naruto created alone and, as I showed, that was the goal of the training
    My point still remains about Kakashi showing no indication of Naruto figuring things out alone. Clearly it wasn't meant for Naruto to do on his own if he left Yamato in charge.

    But as far as we've been shown, that would make it a new technique. The Chidori variations, various versions of the clone technique, Gaara's arsenal, etc. Heck, all the Rasengan techniques are considered their own despite being basically the same. Also, isn't the Rasen-Shuriken simply the Fuuton Rasengan with a different shape added on/

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    Do note that Obito did so when the seal was falling, otherwise he wouldn't be able to, as Kushina confirmed prior that.
    Naruto's seal is strong, that's why Kyuubi can't be took from him
    Taking the Kyuubi yeah, but we're just talking about affecting the Kyuubi within. Given that the Sharingan can affect a regular person inside their consciousness like normal, same would probably be true towards the Kyuubi. Kushina's ability was also capable of affecting a Bijuu like normal within a consciousness.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post

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