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Translations: Bleach 600 by BadKarma
At this point, I'm almost certain we're miles away from the original discussion for the most part. I'm not going to continue to argue about how essential Sasuke's MS was in allowing him to compete against the later opponents. I think its clear that everyone in the thread , except you, has already accepted, and agrees, that Sasuke wouldn't be able to compete with the likes of A without his MS.
As for the Itachi battle discussion, I'm pretty sure it's over if we're at the point at which you're saying that Itachi not intending to win is not the same as purposely losing. I'd say a dying guy that intends to die and give up his eyes at the end of a battle is purposely losing. The reality is that if Sasuke was just some opponent, and not Itachi's kid brother, Itachi would've taken him out rather quickly.
Unless Naruto secretly wants to kill Sasuke.
Naruto wouldn't have died because he has Kyuubi's power to protect him. Sasuke didn't have any such power. Take away plot shield and Naruto will still survive more fights thanks to Kyuubi.Quote:
If Naruto even loses some of his lifespan though. With Uzumaki genes, I doubt it.
it's like Sasuke completing Susano'o on his first try. It'd be BS because Sasuke doesn't know how to summon Susano'o personally despite knowing a theory behidn doing so. At least staying in bijuu mode has limits.Quote:
Until he used Chibaku Tensei, yeah. Nagato used up his life force and died as result. Had it been Naruto, he' have lived with plenty of jutsu left over thanks to Kyuubi.Quote:
Thanks to Kyuubi's chakra.
I doubt it, considering Itachi could have killed Sasuke if he wanted to, and Obito wasn't in danger yet. As far as I see, emotions are required, not necessarily life or death situation. Otherwise Obito would have awakened his SHaringan already when he was running to meet his team at the start of Gaiden, thinking he'll be killed by Kakashi for tardiness. And, Sharingan wouldn't have been said to be rare among Uchiha.Quote:
Kyuubi couldn't because of seal, and because Naruto had help from Hachibi and his mom, as well as Minato. Itachi still put Sasuke to the point of complete exhaustion. If Naruto didn't have help from his mom or the Hachibi, Naruto would have probably had it rougher, but as it stands, Sasuke had it rougher. Itachi wasn't trying to kill Sasuke, but he still pushed him so far that Sasuke couldn't hold back Orochimaru's chakra, which is what Itachi wanted. Sasuke proved that he could keep up with Itachi for hte most part, while Naruto proved he couldn't keep up with Kyuubi in regards of hatred. Power-wise, no doubt about that even though Kushina did use her chain to make Kyuubi fall, since it was still Naruto dealing damage.Quote:
How so? I doubt it did anything but make him recover from physical strains. Naruto dispelling one clone at a time would probably not have made a difference, I think.Quote:
I know, but it doesn't mean Sasuke would be killed. though, funnily every time we've seen Naruto and Sasuke use their finishers on each other, it's always ended in a tie, although Naruto implied rasengan was stronger and Sasuke furthered the implication by saying he was going all out compared to Naruto holding back a bit.Quote:
It's throwable only in Sage Mode.
obito being tobi
was that necessary?!
i demand answers!!
you by yourself are saying that exact outcome isn't needed; yet you are demanding exact outcome for Naruto. we all knew from very early days of the manga, i hope you did too, that Naruto will gain full access of Kyuubi's chakra. later it was also made clear that Naruto will be befriending Kyuubi. so, basically Naruto will gain a biju mode was an inevitable fact. but you are complaining that "Where is the implication that Naruto's cloak would be different", meaning exact outcome; yet somewhere else you are saying that exact outcome is not needed.
Naruto gaining biju mode was foreshadowed very early on; if his outcome design isn't as it was expected from you, then by your own definition, that doesn't make it any less foreshadowed.
back with sasuke; you say his MS was foreshadowed. and i would say what was foreshadowed is the fact that sasuke won't gain MS at all. are you surprised? how on earth i can think something like that?
well think of it this way, Itachi said sasuke that someone with the same eyes could defeat him. so when sasuke "defeated" Itachi without the same eyes; it was certain that sasuke ain't gonna get MS. wasn't "i am nothing like you" or something like that a line from sasuke himself addressing Itachi?
Being accessible by default should be the correct argument, as regardless of him having to resort to a control, Kurama still shielded him for his own safety; after all he IS the nine-tails vessel.
Pertaining to Sasuke, I can understand you seeing it that way, except right after their battle we learnt that Itachi had manipulated the battle in order to purposely help Sasuke gain MS, before we actually saw Sasuke's MS. So we ended up back to where we had been before Sasuke actually showed it.
And yeah, but you said he'd be sending fireballs to the sky for kirin. He'd have to take Raikage out of his field of vision. Even if he doesn't, he won't be able to react as fast if Raikage uses his shunshin.
Well, that's because Sasuke couldn't hurt him with the chidori blade, that attack failed. Raikage's probably that confident in his ability to tank.
Was he in a complete control of his mind against Haku and Orochimaru? I don't think so. If that was the case, then why did the series emphasize on the 'gaining control of the Biju'? Doesn't make much sense to me from any angle. You didn't provide any counters for the other points.
Against Haku, he was in complete control. Why else would he stop once Haku was unmasked? I never said he was in control against Orochimaru though, considering Naruto would never hurt Sakura.
Because Naruto couldn't control the Kyuubi beyond third tails, as we saw. I'm talking about Kyuubi's influence on Naruto up to third tails, where he was still like himself, but a bit more ferocious. Naruto from fourth tail and beyond was completely taken over by the Kyuubi.
There's no need to. PRetty much obvious Naruto would have lost without Kyuubi's chakra.
^ He stopped because his rage was quelled, which became the actual trigger for his state. He didn't even know something like nine-tails took over him. There is nothing to support this 'control' logic you are using at that point in Manga. It's Naruto's surprise at finding Kyuubi inside him when he was near death the first time - during his training with Jiriya - which is the definite factor here, as he was not even aware of his 'transitional states' at all.