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Thread: Haki: A plot hole or an author's liberty?

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    Intl Translator 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity ukimix's Avatar
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    Haki: A plot hole or an author's liberty?


    In this panel, one of the most powerful characters in the whole One Piece uses his best hits to attack a logia user and gets to land some punches over him. According to canonical explanation, there would be two ways to land a hit on a logia user: or taking advantage of his/her individual weaknesess (So, Luffy beat Crocodile using water to harden sand) or using CoA.
    But, after the time skip CoA has been drawing by Oda in most of the case with a dark color in the member or the object imbued with CoA.


    Question for us, readers, is: how can we deal with all these events, making a consistent / a coherent or a satisfactory reading of the manga?
    Last edited by ukimix; November 10, 2012 at 08:39 PM. Reason: cutting of my answer, and posting it in a different place

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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member hossice's Avatar
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    Re: Haki: a hole plot and an author’s liberty?

    I think either you are looking to far into this or aren't seeing the difference in the ways CoA is used in these cases. The way I see it is whitebeard used CoA in his devil fruit power. So here it would be his shock wave as that is his devil fruit power. In luffy's case it would be in his rubber ability as that is his devil fruit power. The way Oda did it with whitebeard was different. Just as in the most recent chapters, Tashigis sword didn't have a black coating to say that she was using CoA. Also, when Luffy hugged Cesar, his arms weren't all black. I think the manner in which CoA is implied in attacks is different. I believe if they are actively in their logia form, then it is necessary to show the black aura. Just like with smoker and vergo. He had black on his arm when he was in his smoke form both times.
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    Intl Translator 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity ukimix's Avatar
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    Re: Haki: a hole plot and an author’s liberty?

    My answer is: if there is a hole it’s not a hole in the story but in the reader’s interpretation. Because you can crucify the author or the story for ‘a incoherence’ or you can give the author a liberty to hear/read the rest of the story without feeling yourself cheated. Drawing is also a language, but not an alphabetical language; so the signs of that language are the lines drawn by the author with which the story is told. If Oda drew that way during Marineford it is because that was the story for us in that moment. If now, haki CoA hits are drawn with a dark color is just because we will adopt that sign to understand incoming stories; that is all.

    I will explain it with different worlds. Someone tells me a story, using words, in this way: “WB hit Akainu, and Akainu felt a intense pain and suffered a huge damage.” And I can say: "wow!"

    Some time later the same person comes back to the story and tell me: “I didn’t tell you all about that battle, and about how WB gets to crush Akainu, it is something called haki; it works this and that…” And I can honestly say again: "wow!"

    And if someone comes complaining about it: “ey but why didn’t you say that in the first time you tols us the story?”, I would answer: “nevermind, as long as I keep being amazed for your stories, I’m fine with it”.

    I think it is the same thing with the drawings. The last reply could be the same that: “ey, but why then didn’t you drew WB punch with a dark color as you have been doing now in the last chapters?” I could keep answering: “nevermind, as long as I keep being amazing for your stories, I will be fine with it”.

    The main question of this thread is also a question about how you choose to read the manga: will you think that there is a hole plot there, and to think that that affects the quality of the story or will you give a liberty to the manga on that point?

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Fox666's Avatar
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    Re: Haki: a hole plot and an author’s liberty?

    Isn't that dark color because of Luffy vulcanization technique? It isn't like that when, for example, Pekoms used Haki.
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    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Zehahaha's Avatar
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    Re: Haki: a hole plot and an author’s liberty?

    No no no stop right there Ukimix

    Let's take Luffy's example : He used COA on the Pacifista but he didn't use hardening at all, he hit CC when he found him in that room without using hardening, and then a second time too

    What I'm saying is : using COA doesn't necessarily mean that your hand or whatever body part will turn black, seems like Hardening is more like an advanced form of COA
    Last edited by Zehahaha; November 05, 2012 at 03:34 AM.

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    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted k-dom's Avatar
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    Re: Haki: a hole plot and an author’s liberty?

    I really wish that Oda explains how this black color works because so far it is very confusing and that bothers me.
    I was fine with only Luffy using it because it could have been explained by a property of his devil fruit. But now we have most certainly seen it used by Smoker on his fits and Vergo on his bamboo stick. And that raise the question : why didn't he used it before the time skip ? To me that his quite unsatisfying but I could get with ukimix explanation. But like hossice said, there was no black when Tashigi cut Monet and that would be an inconsistency.
    Unless like Zehahaha suggests the black color is used in case of a very strong CoA.
    With the lack of explanation from the author I can't say if it is a hole or not but without them I'm quite puzzled.

    ---------- Post added at 08:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:34 PM ----------

    Also I don't know if it is related or not but when I said that haki was a hole in the story in this post, I wasn't referring to this black color.
    My feeling is that Oda had got a clear idea on how he would used haki (and by that I mean the 3 types that he defined after the war) only late in the story, at least after Arabasta and Skypiea arc. This is only my personal opinion and I have no reference to proove it, but the fact that mantra has become observation haki does not seem really natural. First there is the fact that they only can use one type of haki, second the fact that Aisa is born with that power, those points contradicts a little haki and makes me think that Oda came with the idea of Observation haki later on.
    That's why, to me, arguments like Crocodile didn't know about haki are not really pertinent. How could he if even the author didn't really know about it ?

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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member UnknownMugiwara's Avatar
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    Re: Haki: a hole plot and an author’s liberty?

    I think Oda has come up with it to show the readers that the characters are using CoA.
    During the War, Haki hadn't been explained and it would only confuse the readers if WB's hand suddenly turned black.
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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member eefrit's Avatar
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    Re: Haki: a hole plot and an author’s liberty?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox666 View Post
    Isn't that dark color because of Luffy vulcanization technique?
    I really wish that was the case as it made a lot of sense and opened a ton possiblities for Devil's Fruits combined with Haki. But now it's like a high class Haki technique and kinda ruins the uniqueness of it and the possibilities.

    Quote Originally Posted by UnknownMugiwara View Post
    I think Oda has come up with it to show the readers that the characters are using CoA.
    During the War, Haki hadn't been explained and it would only confuse the readers if WB's hand suddenly turned black.
    This explanation is pretty much the only thing I can think of that explains it at the moment until Oda himself does.

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    MH Senpai MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Uriel's Avatar
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    Re: Haki: a hole plot and an author’s liberty?

    For me it's easy: Before us readers weren't unable to see Haki. Now that was explained, we do and can see trough color change to make a distinction between Haki users and non-users.
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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Mr. Arashi's Avatar
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    Re: Haki: a hole plot and an author’s liberty?

    Uriel has a point, it can be an editorial appointment that was asked to Oda to do, about making visual any haki attack.

    Also Ukimix, the first page of Newgate's punch. Quakes can be nemesis of magma, so it would allow him to hit Akainu without haki embued xp

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    MangaHelper 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member MiyamotoMusashi's Avatar
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    Re: Haki: a hole plot and an author’s liberty?

    Quote Originally Posted by Uriel View Post
    For me it's easy: Before us readers weren't unable to see Haki. Now that was explained, we do and can see trough color change to make a distinction between Haki users and non-users.
    That would be true if known Haki users post-TS had their limbs always turn black when Haki (CoA) is used, that is not the case though, proven again in the last chapter when neither Zoro nor Tashigi had neither a limb nor their sword turn black. Zehahaha pretty much summarized it good enough, what we would call "normal" CoA is still invisible, several times proven through Luffy hitting either CC or holding him and Smashigi down. CoA Hardening (the blackening thing) is an advanced technique which Luffy for example only uses in his base form (exception would be Red Hawk which is a result of Hardening + Gear2). This advanced technique is not reserved for Luffy only though, Vergo and Smoker can use it, too and i would not be surprised if Zoro and Sanji could use it, too although you could question the sense behind Zoro using it.
    Btw, Oda is really smart in distinguishing between Haki users and non-users. He already mentioned pre-TS that every VA uses it (Smoker, Vergo), he refrained from confirming Haki users himself but let his characters confirm it (Luffy for Zoro, Sanji and Law, Sentoumaru for Luffy when he beat the Pacifista, Smoker for Tashigi when they were fighting Law...) or just simply let them fight against a Logia (Pekomz).


    OTT: Personally, i do not think that it is a plot hole, it just made things a little more complicated and thus more open for interpretation. For example, the panel you took as an example Ukimix is a perfect case open for interpretation. Did WB use CoA in that panel even though he could not hurt Kizaru or Aokiji before because he became enraged about Ace´s death (Haki is closely bound to emotions) or did his fruit damage Akainu who is magma?
    These unclear situations of Haki usage only occur at the war though where the pacing was so fast that we had a fight in almost every panel, so i think that Oda took some liberties in the war and refrained from making too much explanations, considering the elite of the OP world was fighting in the war it kind of makes sense.
    Last edited by MiyamotoMusashi; November 05, 2012 at 01:09 AM.

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    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Zehahaha's Avatar
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    Re: Haki: a hole plot and an author’s liberty?

    Even after the timeskip there has been instances where Haki was used without the darkening : Pekoms-Caribou, Luffy-Pacifista, Luffy-CC... Let's remember what is COA first, it is like an invisible armor, that's how Rayleigh himself explained it

    It only makes sense that Hardening is an advanced form of COA, at least that's how I see it

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    MH Senpai MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Uriel's Avatar
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    Re: Haki: a hole plot and an author’s liberty?

    The examples were swordsman, so maybe it's not needed. But well, what Zehahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha (?) says is probably the right option.
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    MangaHelper 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member MiyamotoMusashi's Avatar
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    Re: Haki: a hole plot and an author’s liberty?

    Quote Originally Posted by Uriel View Post
    The examples were swordsman, so maybe it's not needed. But well, what Zehahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha (?) says is probably the right option.
    Don´t know about that, both Smoker and Vergo use it on their respective weapon. Even if you are right, my other example still stand though.
    Actually, i would not be surprised if Oda introduces other Haki (CoA) techniques later on. The attempt to make it more versatile is actually quite logical since otherwise it kind of would be a static ability.

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    Intl Translator 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity ukimix's Avatar
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    Re: Haki: a hole plot and an author’s liberty?

    I think Uriel's view will be the rigth one, which I would like to paraphrase this way: "Now that you know you will see it with different eyes". Zehahaha's explanation is the most consistent, but still has to face a problem: once Oda explains those different forms of CoA haki, the explanation will have to explain why those forms weren't used in Marineford, where there were such powerful fighters. A very difficult explanation, I think.

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