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Thread: Naruto 611 Discussion

  1. #301
    MH Senpai 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Uchiha_Blood's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 611 Discussion / 612 Prediction

    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi View Post
    Sasuke had to kill his brother to get MS, I'd say he earned it. His own genius allowed him to advance it at such a rapid rate and learn how to use it.
    And Naruto had to beat Kyuubi to the ground, so he too earned it ( without counting both of them needing others to awaken those abilities, Sasuke needed Itachi to die for him and Naruto needed Kushina for that extra jump ).
    Still you didn't understand my point ( my explanation was poor ), it wasn't that Naruto earned it and Sasuke don't, is that both of them earned some, and were handed a lot, lot more.
    Right now Naruto without Kyuubi would destroy Sasuke without Itachi's eyes, since he would be blind by overuse of MS

    Quote Originally Posted by ninjabot View Post
    How in the hell is the Sharingan NOT Sasuke's own power? The reason this argument started way back in Part 1 and persists to the end of the series is because Naruto fans seem not to understand the difference between power that you naturally gain due to your genetic makeup... and power given to you as a gift/curse/whim. No one GAVE Sasuke a Sharingan. Blame it on chance, or fate, but you can't say it's not his power. Naruto on the other hand was given, by a sentient being, the power that gives him any worth at all as a ninja. Given. Someone CHOSE to make him somebody in the ninja world.

    There will never. Ever. EVER be a valid argument for Naruto's Kyuubi abilities being his own. There never has been. People have deluded themselves into thinking so inorder to get that nasty taste out of their mouth every time Kishi force-feeds them a half-assed victory that Kurama gave Naruto. But they knew better. They know better.

    YOU know better.
    You don't understand what I was saying, the issue isn't the Sharingan per se, but how he got the Mangekyo and the Eternal ( and the Cursed Seal ) for free, without them being earned, just like Naruto got Kyuubi and later Bijuu Mode handed to him for free.
    My response was to the issue of Sasuke having a legit power-up while Naruto did not, which is false imo:
    as I will always say, both had their free power ups, both had their earned power ups, and they are pretty similar in that aspect.

    Naruto being born with Kyuubi doesn't change a thing imo, since, as I said above, if right now we would take what both of them received for free from others Naruto would have Sage Mode while Sasuke would be blind, so Sasuke being the "victim" or someone who got the short end of the stick is wrong.
    Expecially with a scroll that will power him up with the likes of Madara

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  3. #302
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted gnut's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 611 Discussion / 612 Prediction

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    Actually, there is a valid argument that Kyuubi's chakra that Naruto stole was his own power, even though he did have help. The chakra came without will and couldn't be controlled by Kyuubi, Naruto himself had to train to master the use and precision, as we saw when he crushed the blocks easily without meaning to. Everything else in regards to the Kyuubi though, I'd agree that Kyuubi never was Naruto's own power despite what anyone says.



    Sasuke did bring about ITachi's death though, and Sasuke himself thinks he killed Itachi or is the reason Itachi is dead since Itachi did die quicker than normal due to exhaustion. Or Sasuke feels horrible because he's the reason why Itachi suffered so much from the disease.
    itachi-kun planned on a fight to the death...it was sasuke who was lucky to last out...if not for the disease...itachi would have had his way with sasuke...but he planned on losing...

    but the output was not what he expected...sasuke to become darker...vengeful
    But the stink that filled the privy gave ample evidence that the oft-repeated jape about his father was just another lie. Lord Tywin Lannister did not, in the end, shit gold

  4. #303
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted ninjabot's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 611 Discussion / 612 Prediction

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood
    You don't understand what I was saying,
    I'll be damned. You said this:

    Quote Originally Posted by you
    Just saying, if Sasuke and Naruto now would fight with their own powers, Sasuke would be without eyes or blind while Naruto would have Sage Mode.
    You said that if they were using their own powers Sasuke could not use the Sharingan. This implies that the Sharingan is not considered his power. It may not have been what you meant, but it's what you said. As for the MS I'll never understand how anyone could consider loss of sanity not a real cost.

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J
    ]Actually, there is a valid argument that Kyuubi's chakra that Naruto stole was his own power, even though he did have help. The chakra came without will and couldn't be controlled by Kyuubi, Naruto himself had to train to master the use and precision, as we saw when he crushed the blocks easily without meaning to. Everything else in regards to the Kyuubi though, I'd agree that Kyuubi never was Naruto's own power despite what anyone says.
    Admittedly I meant Naruto's Kyuubi feats years before Chakra Mode. My bad. Though he'd never have had the opportunity if Minato hadn't prepped him with the sealing. So I maintain my "You're a lucky bastard Naruto. Thank Daddy for that Deus Ex" stance.
    Last edited by ninjabot; November 29, 2012 at 09:15 PM.

  5. #304
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    Re: Naruto 611 Discussion / 612 Prediction

    Quote Originally Posted by ninjabot View Post
    I'll be damned. You said this:



    You said that if they were using their own powers Sasuke could not use the Sharingan. This implies that the Sharingan is not considered his power. It may not have been what you meant, but it's what you said. As for the MS I'll never understand how anyone could consider loss of sanity not a real cost.



    Admittedly I meant Naruto's Kyuubi feats years before Chakra Mode. My bad. Though he'd never have had the opportunity if Minato hadn't prepped him with the sealing. So I maintain my "You're a lucky bastard Naruto. Thank Daddy for that Deus Ex" stance.
    but BOT...in all hind sight....sasuke is a luck bastard,thanks to an unconditional brother...

    itachi sacrificed everything for what sasuke has now...
    But the stink that filled the privy gave ample evidence that the oft-repeated jape about his father was just another lie. Lord Tywin Lannister did not, in the end, shit gold

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  7. #305
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted ninjabot's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 611 Discussion / 612 Prediction

    ^I do. But Itachi isn't responsible for Sasuke having the potential to gain MS in the first place. Itachi didn't alter his body when he was a child so that years in the future he could gain the MS. Also, you do know that had Obito not mentioned the truth about Itachi, Sasuke would've never experienced the emotional anguish necessary for him to gain MS from Itachi's death...right? It goes deeper than Itachi just dying. It's the mental and emotional duress.

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  9. #306
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    Re: Naruto 611 Discussion / 612 Prediction

    Quote Originally Posted by ninjabot View Post
    ^I do. But Itachi isn't responsible for Sasuke having the potential to gain MS in the first place. Itachi didn't alter his body when he was a child so that years in the future he could gain the MS. Also, you do know that had Obito not mentioned the truth about Itachi, Sasuke would've never experienced the emotional anguish necessary for him to gain MS from Itachi's death...right? It goes deeper than Itachi just dying. It's the mental and emotional duress.
    not to be a prick...but if itachi didnt die...sasuke could never even be in the convo...

    obito is a special circumstance(just MS)...but the group has figured him out.

    i cant wait for sasuke vs naruto...all this other bullshit should be off-panel...(get it in the anime)
    But the stink that filled the privy gave ample evidence that the oft-repeated jape about his father was just another lie. Lord Tywin Lannister did not, in the end, shit gold

  10. #307
    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 611 Discussion / 612 Prediction

    Quote Originally Posted by gnut View Post
    itachi-kun planned on a fight to the death...it was sasuke who was lucky to last out...if not for the disease...itachi would have had his way with sasuke...but he planned on losing...

    but the output was not what he expected...sasuke to become darker...vengeful
    Itachi also challenged Sasuke to the point that he ran out of chakra and couldn't suppress Orochimaru's anymore. Itachi challenged Sasuke to the point that he wasn't completely healed even after few days or weeks. It was in no way an easy fight for Sasuke. No one is disagreein that Itachi would have won if he was serious, but I'm disagreeing with the fact that Sasuke had it easy when in fact, he didn't. It's like saying Naruto had it easy when he fought Pain just because Pain wasn't trying to kill him.

    Quote Originally Posted by ninjabot View Post
    Admittedly I meant Naruto's Kyuubi feats years before Chakra Mode. My bad. Though he'd never have had the opportunity if Minato hadn't prepped him with the sealing. So I maintain my "You're a lucky bastard Naruto. Thank Daddy for that Deus Ex" stance.
    Oh, true. Well, Sasuke is kinda lucky because of his genetics as well.

  11. #308
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted ninjabot's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 611 Discussion / 612 Prediction

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J
    Oh, true. Well, Sasuke is kinda lucky because of his genetics as well
    This is true... to an extent. Remember, gaining a Sharingan isn't as simple as being an Uchiha. I don't have a problem admitting Sasuke's lucky to be born in a prodigious clan. I do have a problem believing that Sasuke and Naruto have an equal amount of luck and abilities handed to them. I also have a problem believing those who believe Sasuke is the more lucky of the two actually believe what they're claiming. Once again no one gave Sasuke the Sharingan.

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  13. #309
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted gnut's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 611 Discussion / 612 Prediction

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    Itachi also challenged Sasuke to the point that he ran out of chakra and couldn't suppress Orochimaru's anymore. Itachi challenged Sasuke to the point that he wasn't completely healed even after few days or weeks. It was in no way an easy fight for Sasuke. No one is disagreein that Itachi would have won if he was serious, but I'm disagreeing with the fact that Sasuke had it easy when in fact, he didn't. It's like saying Naruto had it easy when he fought Pain just because Pain wasn't trying to kill him.
    no i never said sasuke...had it easy...i only said that he was granted power just like naruto...

    they both fought for the full power...atleast to control it.

    sasuke gaining itachi's eyes...naruto gaining kyuubi's chakra
    But the stink that filled the privy gave ample evidence that the oft-repeated jape about his father was just another lie. Lord Tywin Lannister did not, in the end, shit gold

  14. #310
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member EMS's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 611 Discussion / 612 Prediction

    Seriously sasuke power comes from his bloodline , we can call him lucky bastard!!! But this is his own power while naruto could loose all that power from the kuubi mode and he will loose it sooner or later, he promise to help out the bijuus, I'm assuming he will set them free and find a way to free kurama but naruto shouldn't neglected sennin-mode, that is bad ass power..
    Another thing it crack me up about naruto getting the rinnegan, he is dumb that i doubt he will be able to use the rinnegan properly, naruto is more the physical body.

    ---------- Post added at 10:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:08 PM ----------

    Next chapter the allies will shit their pants when madara summon another meteor or perfect susano..
    Last edited by EMS; November 29, 2012 at 10:15 PM.
    living in the darkness and now with a new light, i will raise to a new beginning...

  15. #311
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    Re: Naruto 611 Discussion / 612 Prediction

    Quote Originally Posted by EMS View Post
    Seriously sasuke power comes from his bloodline , we can call him lucky bastard!!! But this is his own power while naruto could loose all that power from the kuubi mode and he will loose it sooner or later, he promise to help out the bijuus, I'm assuming he will set them free and find a way to free kurama but naruto shouldn't neglected sennin-mode, that is bad ass power..
    Another thing it crack me up about naruto getting the rinnegan, he is dumb that i doubt he will be able to use the rinnegan properly, naruto is more the physical body.

    ---------- Post added at 10:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:08 PM ----------

    Next chapter the allies will shit their pants when madara summon another meteor or perfect susano..
    i woul love for naruto to wield the senin's treasures instead of just the kyuubi...

    imagine naruto with the fan and gourde for ex...in sage mode...that would be beast
    But the stink that filled the privy gave ample evidence that the oft-repeated jape about his father was just another lie. Lord Tywin Lannister did not, in the end, shit gold

  16. #312
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member Bloomerwedgies's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 611 Discussion / 612 Prediction

    Both Naruto and Sasuke had keys to great power the days they were born; one bestowed by circumstance and one by genes. The differences in how those things have affected their paths is intriguing. It seems to me that all of Sasuke's advances in power come at such a high price and with such grim consequences that in the end it's questionable whether they are even worth it. Signs have pointed to 'no'. Except for the eyes he was born with, he's earned every last one of his subsequent power increases with terrible suffering.

    I'm not saying that being a jinchuuriki is a walk in the park, because it obviously is not; or that Naruto hasn't suffered because of his power, because he certainly has suffered greatly...but I think on the whole, Naruto's difficult experience as Kurama's host has actually turned out to have a striking degree of a bright side after all. And there's an individuality to the varying jinchuuriki experiences, too; they have more of an effect on their own fates; it's a make-of-it-what-you-will, get out of it what you put into it sort of deal, with the potential to be very harmonious. Sasuke's gifts, on the other hand...hoo boy. They're a bag of overwhelming white elephants.

    Being born with the sharingan in the first place was a mixed blessing at best, and things just got worse from there. Literally nothing that he's ever done or had done to him that's earned him more power has had an up side, other than more power--and the debit column for the mental cost for that power is solid red. The curse mark truly had 'curse' written all over it, MS has utter despair as a base requirement (and then you get to go blind unless more horror), and who knows what EMS is going to end up doing to him. No one who's ever had it has come to a good end, and it's entirely possible it comes with Victorian Coughing Disease just for added thrills. His clan was disenfranchised and shrouded in darkness and his two remaining relatives are trying to crazy-moon the world. I wonder if the poor kid is ever going to catch a break and gain some autonomy.
    I think I'd rather be a jinchuuriki!

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  18. #313
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member badluckartist's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 611 Discussion / 612 Prediction

    Quote Originally Posted by ninjabot View Post
    This is true... to an extent. Remember, gaining a Sharingan isn't as simple as being an Uchiha. I don't have a problem admitting Sasuke's lucky to be born in a prodigious clan. I do have a problem believing that Sasuke and Naruto have an equal amount of luck and abilities handed to them. I also have a problem believing those who believe Sasuke is the more lucky of the two actually believe what they're claiming. Once again no one gave Sasuke the Sharingan.
    And just being a jinchuuriki doesn't equal being a badass. There were fodder jins just like there are plenty fodder Sharingan/Byakugan users. Naruto and Sasuke both have a LOT of external factors all magnifying each other to make them so powerful. There is no such thing as "their own power" with younger characters, because so few of them have actually developed truly unique things. If anything, Sakura has them both beat on sheer growth from nothing to something with minimal external modifications. Even now l: l

    ---------- Post added at 11:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:33 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Bloomerwedgies View Post
    Both Naruto and Sasuke had keys to great power the days they were born; one bestowed by circumstance and one by genes.
    That's a funny way of wording it- genetics are circumstance :P

    ---------- Post added at 11:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:34 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Bloomerwedgies View Post
    Being born with the sharingan in the first place was a mixed blessing at best, and things just got worse from there. Literally nothing that he's ever done or had done to him that's earned him more power has had an up side, other than more power--and the debit column for the mental cost for that power is solid red. The curse mark truly had 'curse' written all over it, MS has utter despair as a base requirement (and then you get to go blind unless more horror), and who knows what EMS is going to end up doing to him. No one who's ever had it has come to a good end, and it's entirely possible it comes with Victorian Coughing Disease just for added thrills. His clan was disenfranchised and shrouded in darkness and his two remaining relatives are trying to crazy-moon the world. I wonder if the poor kid is ever going to catch a break and gain some autonomy.
    I think I'd rather be a jinchuuriki!
    You know what's funny? Sasuke was actually doing great before the story forced him into getting the MS, at which point that's all he began using. With just the base Sharingan he kept up with Itachi's taijutsu just fine, broke out of Tsukuyomi, etc. His mastery over raiton was his shining point, and now that's been replaced by Susanoo spam. He never had to gain MS, and imo, being able to copy and memorize any type of movement, the ability to see chakra (even through objects, like the earth), and the ability to copy jutsu are more interesting and have more utility than BS like Amaterasu and Susanoo. You don't have to form an emotional pact with your eyeballs for all of the more awesome effects, you just have to try really hard. For a jin (at least Naruto), every stage causes your personality to be subverted by a literal DEMON. 1-tailed cloak caused burning/regeneration life-draining, and 4-tailed took that even further. And then you have to worry about the personality roulette- did you get stuck with a demon like Shukaku? Because then your sanity is gone no matter what, most likely.

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  20. #314
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    Re: Naruto 611 Discussion / 612 Prediction

    Quote Originally Posted by KiSwordsman View Post
    Honestly, after learning Its connection with the Sharingan, I'm pretty much done with doujutsu in general.
    There's still the Byakugan and Hyuuga clan, which remains removed from the Sharingan and still potentially OP even if Kishi ignores them.

    Quote Originally Posted by ninjabot View Post
    ^I do. But Itachi isn't responsible for Sasuke having the potential to gain MS in the first place. Itachi didn't alter his body when he was a child so that years in the future he could gain the MS. Also, you do know that had Obito not mentioned the truth about Itachi, Sasuke would've never experienced the emotional anguish necessary for him to gain MS from Itachi's death...right? It goes deeper than Itachi just dying. It's the mental and emotional duress.
    Actually, according to Obito, Sasuke still would have gained MS from Itachis plan regardless of whether the truth had been revealed or not. Probably in battle when his life was in danger like always.

    Quote Originally Posted by badluckartist View Post
    And just being a jinchuuriki doesn't equal being a badass. There were fodder jins just like there are plenty fodder Sharingan/Byakugan users. Naruto and Sasuke both have a LOT of external factors all magnifying each other to make them so powerful. There is no such thing as "their own power" with younger characters, because so few of them have actually developed truly unique things. If anything, Sakura has them both beat on sheer growth from nothing to something with minimal external modifications. Even now l: l
    When have we seen fodder Jinchuuriki? Even the weakest of them still required S rank ninjas to bring them in. Considering what we saw while they were being controlled, the other Jinchuuriki were hardly push overs.

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    Re: Naruto 611 Discussion / 612 Prediction

    Quote Originally Posted by badluckartist
    And just being a jinchuuriki doesn't equal being a badass.
    I adamantly... vehemently disagree. Naruto, who was a Genin during his training with Jiraiya, went 4 tails and nearly killed him. A kage level ninja. Just from losing control. Granted the 9 tails is on another level than any other bijuu. But my point is that massive power increase came so easily. So haphazardly. Losing your composure turning you into a threat the likes of which a Sannin can barely contend with? And this is a power GIVEN to Naruto too. This all goes back to the old "Which is more hax, Kyuubi or Sharingan?" thread a few years back.

    Quote Quote:
    There were fodder jins just like there are plenty fodder Sharingan/Byakugan users. Naruto and Sasuke both have a LOT of external factors all magnifying each other to make them so powerful. There is no such thing as "their own power" with younger characters, because so few of them have actually developed truly unique things. If anything, Sakura has them both beat on sheer growth from nothing to something with minimal external modifications. Even now l: l
    Fodder Jinchuurikis? Where? It took 2 S rank ninja a piece to take out each bijuu (Akatsuki), and the jinchuuriki that could be considered weaklings all died attempting to control their Bijuu (atleast in the case of Gyuuki and Shukaku's hosts)... which STILL resulted in the bijuu breaking free and murdering dozens of ninja and causing mass destruction. LOL, even when a jinchuuriki loses, they win.

    As for unique abilities, I agree with that. Though the definition of "your own power" I was going for is something that didn't come from an external power source or another sentient being deeming it necessary to power a character up. In other words, if Naruto and Sasuke were olympic gold winning wrestlers... Sasuke would be the guy who is naturally gifted. Naruto would be the guy that's gifted aswell... thanks to the steroids his dad was pumping him with sense birth.

    ---------- Post added at 05:08 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:55 AM ----------

    @Bloomerwedgies: YES! You get it/me! See, this is the reason I'm cool with the Sharingan as a powerup. I truly believe it's the most balanced of powers in the manga based solely on how detrimental it is to the user. Every power, no matter how impressive, has a massive downside which keeps it from being exploitable. From massive chakra cost, to loss of eyesight, to intense pain... There's supposed to be a downside to being a bijuu (shortened lifespan), but if you're an Uzumaki, you're good. Since you're born with super longevity to balance out the shortened lifespan. Kinda convenient.
    Last edited by ninjabot; November 30, 2012 at 12:11 AM.

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