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Madara wipes the floor with The Alliance, Meteor no Jutsu style.
Obito decides to finally use his Rinnegan and Chou Shinra Tensei The Alliance
Ino controls the Juubi and makes it eat Madara and Obito
Sasuke crashes the party and every fangirl screams
Hinata reveals she's the mastermind behind the Juubi, and backstabs Naruto
Juubi & Co decide they are suddenly weaker and let the Alliance do their thing while standing still like robots
Juubi does NOT fire his Bijuuhameha at the Alliance and patiently waits until Kyuubi is ready to dance
If he accepted it, he would become the Hokage. This is the indication I get.
And I said somewhere in those posts that if he matured and became a more sensible person, of course, he could fit the job, but it just doesn't make sense for him to become Hokage right away to me.
---------- Post added at 04:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:17 PM ----------
Kakashi also was a famous Shinobi's son, son of Konoha's White Fang. Then again, he got the approval in the end.
Though, Konohamaru has implied Naruto becoming the Sixth in the future.
The thing is that Naruto has faced those obstacles. He has overcome them. He is continuing to overcome them, proving his path is the right one. There is no way to nicely say it, but it is patently false on its face to claim he has had no obstacles, or faced no troubles. Such a statement is absurd.Quote:
Also - a bit more on this topic...
This position (Not "you"!) shows a fundamental lack of understanding of the nature of philosophical struggles. Every movement needs an exemplar - a standard bearer - an avatar - or a leader. Someone who is larger than life who blazes the trail, and shows other people how to follow it. It is not feasible to expect EVERYONE to achieve the same level of accomplishment and stature as that exemplar. The "Kid" in your example may not be able to "inherit the power of a psuedo god", but he CAN adopt the principles that a person like Naruto is trying to live by. He can't take on the hatred of "the world", but he can take on the hatred in his own small sphere of circumstances. He creates a "micro world" where he defeats the challenges and problems relative to HIS experience.Quote:
In Naruto's case, he is facing something much bigger than that. Obito and ET Madara have their own "psuedo god" power at their fingertips. That power needs a counter. What would Christ have been with out a "Satan" in opposition? Such large-scale Iconoclasts need an opponent equal to the scope of the challenge they represent. Who is going to stand up to that? The "kid"? Of course not. That is where the EXEMPLAR steps, sets a standard, and shows everyone what they can emulate and shoot for in their own circumstances. Millions of individuals emulating that Exemplar in their own circumstances - while not individually taking on 'the world' - will in fact change 'the world' as a collective action.
So it is a false premise to treat "The Kid" as if he was "The Exemplar". Naruto isn't trying to say everyone in the world should be a Kurama toting Jinchuriiki. He's telling them to give up the hatred and take on the pain that manifests in their own individual lives and learn to deal with it without seeking revenge. ANYONE can do that. The manga isn't about kids acquiring the power to fight actual Juubis. It is about Naruto telling people that they can defeat the hatred THEY encounter... IE Teaching people how to fight the smaller, individual (but no less important) "Juubis" in their own lives.
Last edited by Invader; December 03, 2012 at 05:39 PM.
Otherwise it will just start up one of those competitions about who can be more condescending. Which in my experience are...unproductive.
I'm not taking anything personally, nor do I intend any personal insult to you; just trying keep discussion positive.
Ideals and philosophies are strengthened and proven by how rigorously they are put to the test. Naruto's ideals are like an umbrella that only gets taken out when it's sunny and dry. To truly know how well it holds up, you got to let it face the worst. And for symbolic heroes that's doubly important.
Also it seems kinda odd that you bring up Naruto's past trails in relation to testing his current ideals. It's like saying an untested umbrella works great because I always got rained on lots of times before I purchased it.
You see the kid represents the "simple questions", as in questions an actual kid would ask. You say Naruto "defeats hatred" but when you actually look at the methods he has used to do it. The have little to do with him and his views and everything to do with convenient circumstances and inherited strength. Even if you scale that down it comes across as a variant of "might makes right", which doesn't quite work.
Which is why his untested "enlightenment" rings false to me (and apparently I'm not alone in that). Which bring me back to the emperors new clothes analogy. I think he's philosophically buck naked, and the plot just keeps everybody going along with it.
Last edited by Jammin; December 03, 2012 at 10:41 PM.
I really wouldn't call the Kyuubi's recent actions an obstacle given that Naruto had to face no challenge to achieve them.
No - I didn't misunderstand. You are confusing two completely different things. Naruto having the power to take on Madara/Obito and his approach to dealing with "hatred" are not the same thing. What created all the pain in the Ninja world is not (at its root) the Jubi, Madara, or Obito. The hatred exists when people respond to negative events with anger/hate/violence/revenge. Naruto is not saying "You can only fight these things if you have Kurama in your belly". He's saying that anyone can fight that hatred by doing what he told the Raikage to do... Do not pursue a course of revenge.Quote:
The "method" that Naruto is using to fight hatred is NOT using Kurama. So that is where you are missing the boat. You are assuming he is fighting hatred with flashy jutsus and Bijjudamas, and chakra cloaks. That's just wrong. Those are the tools he is using to fight Obito & Madara. When Naruto fights "hatred" it is entirely different. In fact it is the exact opposite. He fought that hatred by NOT using his power to kill Nagato. He used it by NOT fighting back when that lightning chick pasted him. He used it by saying he was NOT going to just kill Sauske and be done with it. He fights hatred by not using his flashy powers.
If 6 Sharingan/Rinnegan wielding immortal, indestructable Jinchuuriki, 2 invulnerable Sharingan/rinnegan wielding demigods, and the Juubi itself don't count as 'current obstacles' then I'm not sure what to say. Naruto defeated his hatred, doubt, and fear already. Those obstacles are done. Now he's moved on to the big-baddies. Now is not the time for existentialism. We've been there. Done that.Quote:
So what's his answer for those who have already pursued that revenge? What happens when the person in the pursuit of revenge is too powerful for you to defeat? Or too mentally far gone that your words won't reach them? Naruto should experience a situation like this for the simple fact that... it'd make for far less boring writing. I mean, the answer Kishimoto's giving us so far is "Naruto will just defeat them. THEN they'll change." And that's what he means by stopping hatred with his borrowed powers. It IS might makes right, because Naruto has not faced an opponent where he could change people without tapping into a power that makes no amount of the opponent's power an issue. Madara (with the Juubi) is the first opponent Naruto's faced who hasn't been overwhelmed by the Kyuubi. That means that he's the first opponent who won't fall to the "might makes right+talk no jutsu" strategy. Something else has to happen. Something new.Originally Posted by Invader
I think the problem with claiming that Naruto has "been there, done that" with regards to experiencing trials and tribulations that bring forth character development... is assuming there's a such thing as "enough character development". With the death of Jiraiya, Naruto felt the same kind of despair people like Sasuke and Obito felt, and overcame that despair by... yada yada, whatever. So now we're not worried about seeing him deal with people dying again. We're concerned with him having other chances for growth. For example:
If Naruto were to claim that he would protect his friends, only for a meteor to fall and crush some of them, Naruto's learning experience would likely be "How to cope with loss when there's no time to cope with loss". Or more importantly "what to do when believing in yourself isn't enough". Better yet, if Naruto and Obito have their heart to heart while Obito is holding Kakashi hostage and Obito smiles to Naruto as if he was falling for talk no jutsu... before snapping Kakashi's neck and laughing "You're such a child." The lesson he'd learn is that not everyone can be changed, even if you understand their pain.
Naruto hasn't done enough to satisfy us, because even though it's shounen, and it's not supposed to be that complicated of a story... all of us here are adults. We can't help but expect better.
Why don't you?
Same as in Njal's Saga, or Ghandi, or Christ, or Yoda, or MLK... Peace, love and understanding. There are people like Madara/Hitler/Satan that need to be stood up too though, of course. But that is the "role" for the Exemplar (as I said before). Not everyone has that kind of power, but Naruto does and he's doing what the others can't do by throwing himself on the grenade. Some random kid is not going to be able to stand up to Madara, but no one expects him to. The point is that all those random people who can't fight Madara - but they CAN give up on revenge and hate. But just because there is a Naruto/Jesus/MLK or other Exemplar to fight the big fights does not in any way minimize the challenges that others face when dealing with thier own hate.Quote:
Two words. Captain Emo. Really though - isn't Sauske EXACTLY the person that epidomizes what you just talked about? He's too far gone. Isn't Naruto experiencing that with Sauske? So he actually IS facing that, and he's showing you exactly how he reacts to it over and over again. Not sure what else is wanted in this regard. His failure with Captain Emo has lasted 600+ chapters now. What else will satisfy?Quote:
Say not "enough", but if you said, "enough - for NOW" then you'd be nearer the mark. The kind of wrenching you're after will happen with Captain Emo. Why waste that on losers Naruto doesn't know at all like Obito and Madara? Naruto's growth to date is sufficient to deal with the Madara/Obito threat that is a direct, external assault on basic human free-agency. Madara/Obito are not posing a threat to Naruto's philosophy. They are just simply a basic, "power overwhelming" physical threat that needs whupping - not converting. It is Sauske that will represent hatred and the need for change and understanding in the face of rejection.Quote:
Again - Naruto was RIGHT THERE when ET Madara dropped 2 meteors and kills X,000 alliance troops. So what you want has already happened.Quote:
M'eh. And I think to quote a famous philosopher that you are "straining at gnats while swallowing camels". Everything from this perspective you are espousing has already been done. I can see the deeper message being shot for here, and I don't have to have Naruto watch someone he knows get killed (again). That's old hat. He's achieved inner peace. Now it is time for him to be the hero - not some self-doubting emo twerp who doesn't know what's what.Quote:
Then maybe konohamaru is right. Naruto is the next hokage, the rokudaime hokage. Danzo isn't officially in that sit though. So yeah, naruto would become the sixth in the future. But for me, he's not ready for that position yet not unless kurama would going to take charge in all the documents/political stuff of naruto as the hokage.
I doubt the elders and even the fuedal lords have the guts to talk to kurama. It would he hilarious if kurama would going to yell out of them to shut up at the meeting.
Naruto/kurama : hey you brats.( pointing to the elders) shut the hell up.
My question was how Naruto, personally, handles a situation like this. He breaks the cycle of hatred with love and understanding... until he finds a person who can't be swayed with any amount of love nor understanding. The question is "what then?" The answer is gonna be boring and cliche as hell: "He doesn't rely on his own strength, because his strength combined with those he has created bonds will help him win." That's cheap as hell. And in the examples of all the paragons of moral standing that you listed (MLK, Ghandi, etc), they all have this in common aswell. Don't give up, and eventually people will come around to your way of thinking. The problem though is all of their stories ended the same way... if you catch my drift.Originally Posted by Invader
I don't think that works for the simple fact that Sasuke is already re-considering his stance. I'm talking about a character that can not, that WILL NOT be deterred no matter how much you try to convince them to. If you wanna know what'll satisfy... something like this:Quote:
In other words I want Naruto to get serious because he realizes just how grim things have gotten.
The bolded part is part of the problem. How in the Blue Hell does it make sense that he's more concerned about saving his friend's life... than saving the world? This is the fight for ALL the marbles. Naruto vs. Sasuke? That shit is a playground spat. It's about standing for what you believe in. And proving you "don't go back on your nindo" or some such hot garbage. Yeah it's the fight we're all more concerned about... but... making up with your crush should be the last thing on your mind whenever all of your disciples are THIS close to being mind-jacked. And honestly, Sasuke bing the main mass of personified hatred Naruto has to overcome just doesn't fit anymore. Not when one person's hatred was so strong it spans multiple generations and TWO lifetimes. Madara's got Sasuke beat in the hatred department.Quote:
Barring another flipout once Sasuke meets "the human who knows everything."
He also didn't do anything that would lead us to believe it hurt him on a personal level. I mean I hate to say what everyone else is but... they're fodder. Fodder that were all weaker than him. If someone as strong as him, or stronger than him had got pwned by the meteor, perhaps it would've driven the point home. No, no it wouldn't. But if it was Sakura or Kakashi, maybe he'd pull out all the stops then? I guess my question is, what has to happen for Naruto to think "This is the one fight I can't lose. I HAVE to do better than I've been doing because if I don't... who will?" Christ, even GOKU had this revelation once. It was in a non-canon movie, but whatever.Quote:
I notice you throw "emo" around like... okay, I'm not gonna insult you. But I have to explain something: you're using "emo" in the derogatory "l337speak" connotation. As if to say "anyone who's emotional is a pussy". It's the reason you keep calling Sasuke "Captain Emo". It's the reason you say Emo anytime us posters ask for Naruto to have an emotion outside of "inept, annoying, over-powered, overly lucky cardboard cutout of insert-random-shounen-character". Characters have a select few items that can promote their actions and shape their personalities. Inorder for readers to relate to characters more, they become caricatures of people expressing emotions we all live with, and become stories about what emotions can do to people. Naruto is so stupidly one-dimensional that there really is NOTHING that can make him not boring, outside of something off the wall happening to make him get serious. Hell, I don't want characters to die either. I just want something to happen to Naruto to make him grow the hell up.Quote:
And yeah, it's too late. But it's only too late because of the period of the manga we're in. If this was the beginning of part 2, or if this manga was gonna go on for another 2 or 3 years, then my request wouldn't be futile. So at the end of the manga when Naruto's still... this; remember it's only because Kishi ran out of time. Not because he "got it right."
Last edited by ninjabot; December 03, 2012 at 11:26 PM.
I don't want Naruto to become a gritty, nihilistic hero with a bleak world view (seriously, how weird would that be?), and I don't think that the quantity or quality of his tragic experiences is a huge issue; I am perplexed by the fact that for a while now, his reactions seem off. Like he's not learning much of substance from his life lessons anymore, and maybe even regressing. It's odd. He's never been the most obedient kid, or the best listener, but things used to sink in eventually, didn't they? Am I remembering wrong?
He's emotionally resilient and a determinator (and, of course, a shounen hero), so I don't expect or want him to be beaten down by the woes of life. However, it's jarring when he learns that hugs don't solve everything...but then after a few chapters the thoughtfulness gets subtracted because hugs do solve everything. Well...not everything, of course! But a strangely high number of things for a story with so many dark elements.
Maybe Madara is Kishimoto's way of expressing frustration with genre limitations/pushy editors/character development roadblocks. Writers do say that sometimes their characters absolutely refuse to do as they're told!
Madara/Kishimoto: Kid, if you lob another bunshin at me, hand to God I will turn you into confetti for Juubi's litterbox
Kakashi: Naruto, he just frog-baseballed your clone with Juubi, like, ten seconds ago. Didn't you learn anything from that??
Naruto: I think it's safe to say that I did not
Madara: Come to think of it...go right ahead. Juubi could use the exercise and it's much funnier when your incompetence is multiplied.
Naruto: I'm not incontinent!!
Kakashi: Oh, God, Naruto...I've failed you and my last thought will be that I wish I'd bought you a dictionary
Gai: Kakashi, you have to smother them with attention and love. That's how mine turned out so well!
Kakashi: What about TenTen?
Gai: She's an object lesson in cutting your losses on absolute no-hopers
TenTen: I will have you know that I stole that banana fan from the munitions locker and I think I've found my calling, so :P
Moral: there's hope for everyone! Everyone. So I will think positively that Naruto will get back on track development wise and his dumbing down will reverse (I swear he used to have at least a nodding acquaintance with multi-syllabic words--are those my rose colored glasses again??)
Same Konohamaru suggested he was going to be the Seventh, although he's only a couple of years younger than Naruto, so, I don't take his words that seriously yet (=
If Kyuubi is the captain of a battle team, the battle being what Naruto is best at, he must certainly take over every other duty as well
To him, however, everyone is a brat, apart from Rikudo Sennin.
It would be abnormally great if Rikudo Sennin appeared against Madara, coming in a light beam striking down from space
---------- Post added at 11:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:20 PM ----------
Same happened to revived Hanzou against Mifune. He, too, remembered what his ideals were.
That's the reason why Obito can fall to talk no jutsu, because he can refer back to who he was before getting locked up with Madara and in the very final moment of his life, he may want to become that man again to die that way.
For Madara, as far as we know, there is no such thing. All this plan belonged to Madara from the beginning. He never sided with the idea of peace on his own. He's not going to realize something that isn't present within his heart.
Talk no jutsu against Madara is, therefore, going to be useless.
I agree, considering Naruto would do more damage with his "stupidity." Isn't it the hokage that make the main decisions? The advisers advise, but they don't make the decisions, right? Naruto can still make dumb decisions if he wanted to.
And seriously, I don't think Naruto or anyone can beat Juubi or Madara without some kind of asspull. But I'm curious to see how Naruto will protect his allies, and hope that he actually starts leading. Maybe Kishi wants to mislead us and is actually planning on showing how epic Naruto can be.
THAT. WOULD. BE. AWESOME.
And in the spirit of your optimism...
Depending on the direction the plot goes I could see real opportunity for Naruto is after this war.
Even in the best case, all five villages come out of this war depleted. And Nagato taught us that years of war have left some smaller countries with axes to grind. In addition to that some of the Daimyo didn't seem entirely trusting of their hidden villages. If they wanted to make moves to curtail shinobi village autonomy or have "dangerous" shinobi assassinated, the period immediately after the war would be the time for that too.
So basically for any possible enemy of the big hidden villages, the period after this war would be an opportunity almost too good to pass up.
The problem with all of this is we are trying to put realistic expectations on Kishi's fantastical idea that what Naruto is doing can actually work. Once Nagato was turned with talk no jutsu book no jutsu mega combo, that was it, it was all over.
Naruto changing other people is one thing, specifically, Neji and Gaara because they were both children. In Neji's case, Naruto proved him wrong in a believable sense. In Gaara's case Naruto showed him he wasn't alone, and showed him that he knew his pain.
Nagato however was a man; and incredibly stupid and gullible man, but a man none the less. The fact Naruto was able to change his entire way of thinking in a matter of minutes goes to show how unrealistic the idea is that Naruto can change everyone. That to me, was the moment was the make or break moment of this entire manga, and since then Kishi hasn't turned back. Once this happened people should have stopped putting realistic expectations of Kishi giving a shit about making his manga realistic or even having making sense.
But saying that, I have to disagree with the idea that Naruto's way of thinking is wrong. It is simply misunderstood and articulated terribly because Naruto is an idiot and Kishi has been a poor writer for the past 5 years.
Case and point: Naruto is often too stupid to realize how hopeless a situation is (except when pinned to the ground by Pain): and thus, with the help of plot no jutsu, he always wins. <<<THIS is the problem. Naruto does not know true failure. Naruto losing Jiraiya happened when he was irrelevant to Jiraiya's fate. He was too weak to prevent it at the time. But that wouldn't have mattered, again if Kishi changed one thing. If he let Nagato actually die a villain, and not revive everyone. If that would have happened, Naruto's character would have grown into the character we all wished he could. He would realize that, yes, you can achieve great things through hard work, but sometimes those great things come at a price, sometimes, despite your best efforts, you can't win, and even when you do win, your win can be hollow and pointless.