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  • Madara wipes the floor with The Alliance, Meteor no Jutsu style.

    26 13.27%
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Thread: Naruto 611 Discussion

  1. #511
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Hakuteiken's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 611 Discussion / 612 Prediction

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    Where was it said that Jiraiya was chosen? I don't remember that, I remember it being said that Minato and Orochimaru applied to be hokage, but Hiruzen chose Minato only because Orochimaru was too evil. Basically, Orochimaru would have been the hokage if he wasn't so messed up, not Minato. Orochimaru was the better choice in terms of everything but how messed up he was.

    I agree, considering Naruto would do more damage with his "stupidity." Isn't it the hokage that make the main decisions? The advisers advise, but they don't make the decisions, right? Naruto can still make dumb decisions if he wanted to.



    And seriously, I don't think Naruto or anyone can beat Juubi or Madara without some kind of asspull. But I'm curious to see how Naruto will protect his allies, and hope that he actually starts leading. Maybe Kishi wants to mislead us and is actually planning on showing how epic Naruto can be.

    THAT. WOULD. BE. AWESOME.
    I thought Minato's name was suggested by Jiraiya, but I may have daydreamed about this, can't exactly remember.
    Maybe I just assumed, because Tsunade said Sandaime wanted Jiraiya to succeed him, it would only be logical if he was asked to become the Fourth, as well, before being asked to become the Fifth.

    He's never going to be a hermit filled with wisdom, anyway. Thank God, Sage Mode is just a moniker and not something related to being a sage.

    To defeat the Rinnegan, he definitely needs some trickery.
    And that won't be coming from talk no jutsu, so, maybe a combined attack from the entire Shinobi alliance will put a scratch on the Juubi.
    Still waiting to see what Sasuke and Orochimaru are up to. Obviously, it's not about that everlasting "I will destroy Konoha" chit chat at the moment.
    They may come along with a Rinnegan awaken and that's what Madara would call cheating now.

  2. #512
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Delbi's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 611 Discussion / 612 Prediction

    IMO, Naruto way of thinking, to me, is that you can succeed if you work hard and don't give up. I believe this is true because I've seen it in real life. Only thing is, we have to curb our expectations. Dreams often do not turn into reality. In Naruto's case, his dreams can be reality because he was given the keys to God-like power. Again, if Nagato was allowed to leave everyone dead, this wouldn't be a problem and Naruto would "get it". But since it didn't, he believes anything is possible.
    "The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

  3. #513
    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 611 Discussion / 612 Prediction

    It was also said that Orochimaru was Hiruzen's favorite. I also recall Orochimaru and Minato being the only ones mentioned for Fourth Hokage, Jiraiya's name never popped up, apart from the Fire Daimyo wanting Jiraiya as a hokage, if I recall. I'm not sure if Minato did put down his name, but I remember reading that.

    I think Naruto could get smart like Jiraiya though. He's still young, but once he gets experience and experiences real world, he could gain tons of potential. I dunno, I just don't think Naruto will remain stupid forever.


    So totally want to see Sasuke adn Naruto team up though.

  4. #514
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Hakuteiken's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 611 Discussion / 612 Prediction

    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi View Post
    The problem with all of this is we are trying to put realistic expectations on Kishi's fantastical idea that what Naruto is doing can actually work. Once Nagato was turned with talk no jutsu book no jutsu mega combo, that was it, it was all over.

    Naruto changing other people is one thing, specifically, Neji and Gaara because they were both children. In Neji's case, Naruto proved him wrong in a believable sense. In Gaara's case Naruto showed him he wasn't alone, and showed him that he knew his pain.

    Nagato however was a man; and incredibly stupid and gullible man, but a man none the less. The fact Naruto was able to change his entire way of thinking in a matter of minutes goes to show how unrealistic the idea is that Naruto can change everyone. That to me, was the moment was the make or break moment of this entire manga, and since then Kishi hasn't turned back. Once this happened people should have stopped putting realistic expectations of Kishi giving a shit about making his manga realistic or even having making sense.

    But saying that, I have to disagree with the idea that Naruto's way of thinking is wrong. It is simply misunderstood and articulated terribly because Naruto is an idiot and Kishi has been a poor writer for the past 5 years.

    Case and point: Naruto is often too stupid to realize how hopeless a situation is (except when pinned to the ground by Pain): and thus, with the help of plot no jutsu, he always wins. <<<THIS is the problem. Naruto does not know true failure. Naruto losing Jiraiya happened when he was irrelevant to Jiraiya's fate. He was too weak to prevent it at the time. But that wouldn't have mattered, again if Kishi changed one thing. If he let Nagato actually die a villain, and not revive everyone. If that would have happened, Naruto's character would have grown into the character we all wished he could. He would realize that, yes, you can achieve great things through hard work, but sometimes those great things come at a price, sometimes, despite your best efforts, you can't win, and even when you do win, your win can be hollow and pointless.
    If Naruto is able to change a God-knows-how-many-years-old obstinate Oonoki's heart, retrospectively, the whole Nagato case makes sense.
    As I pointed above, Nagato believed in Naruto only because the things Naruto went on and on were his ideals back then as a young man. It wasn't because Naruto has special power to convince people. You believe in people only when you really want to. In that case, Nagato wanted to believe in "himself" again, and had a moment of redemption.
    Though, I admit I still don't get the point of reviving fodder Shinobi as a way of redemption, when Nagato could keep himself alive and fight for his ideals himself again. In the end, Nagato gave up on his own in the final moment, yet, he entrusted another young kid with the task, who may well be bound to another failure.
    It just doesn't make sense to me.

  5. #515
    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 611 Discussion / 612 Prediction

    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi View Post
    IMO, Naruto way of thinking, to me, is that you can succeed if you work hard and don't give up. I believe this is true because I've seen it in real life. Only thing is, we have to curb our expectations. Dreams often do not turn into reality. In Naruto's case, his dreams can be reality because he was given the keys to God-like power. Again, if Nagato was allowed to leave everyone dead, this wouldn't be a problem and Naruto would "get it". But since it didn't, he believes anything is possible.
    I dunno, even god-like power wouldn't have helped Naruto change people if it weren't for Naruto himself. His words have had more action than anything else, the fighting just made sure he survived long enough to beat it into people. His victory proved that "fuck destiny" and that despite suckin with normal bunshins, Naruto's a master of kage bunshin by working hard. ANd by never giving up, victory is possible because you plan to win. Gaara realized that it was possible to have bonds because Naruto gained bonds and fought hard to protect those bonds - he fought Gaara intensely to save Sakura.

    And I guess Naruto reminded Nagato of his old self. I do think Nagato was too easily convinced though.

  6. #516
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member shafagh's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 611 Discussion / 612 Prediction

    Well ,
    I should repeat that in next chapter , MAdara and Juubi and Obito will forget their abilities ....... so no one will die ( at least no one from Savior friend would get kill by Madara and co )

    I think Naruto should face something like this :
    Quote Quote:


    There's nothing more troublesome than a shinobi that has lost his occupation.
    Unable to display his power or to make a living.
    In a village that stresses business, the ones who have the money are celebrated. Shinobi will be chased to the outskirts of the village. They'll get treated like dogs, the hands which were tainted for the village's sake will be glared at. They'll start selling saigenzai.
    Who can be sure that Leaf Village won't end up like that?
    That thought made me laugh.
    Someday, Leaf Village should end up like that too. Someone should make some incredible invention, or dig up some precious resources and…
    In that case the society where shinobi rule would collapse immediately. The city's guardian deity would no longer be the Hokage but would be money. Guys like Naruto would spend a lifetime ignored.
    A Naruto that wouldn't be heard by anyone? …That's funny. I laughed. Shinobi truly have no more worth than that.
    Taking advantage of the fact that there was no one around, I laughed aloud. A dog, startled by the noise, barked in the distance somewhere. As long at the shinobi system continues, a second and third generation Itachi will appear. Under the banner of justice, someone else will be forced to sacrifice himself.
    Is Leaf Village worth the sacrifice?
    In the end, how do Leaf Village's and Tobi's methods even differ?

    http://www.narutoforums.com/showthread.php?t=876309
    so , Are you think Naruto can face with these questions
    خداحافظ

  7. #517
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Hakuteiken's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 611 Discussion / 612 Prediction

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    It was also said that Orochimaru was Hiruzen's favorite. I also recall Orochimaru and Minato being the only ones mentioned for Fourth Hokage, Jiraiya's name never popped up, apart from the Fire Daimyo wanting Jiraiya as a hokage, if I recall. I'm not sure if Minato did put down his name, but I remember reading that.

    I think Naruto could get smart like Jiraiya though. He's still young, but once he gets experience and experiences real world, he could gain tons of potential. I dunno, I just don't think Naruto will remain stupid forever.


    So totally want to see Sasuke adn Naruto team up though.
    I know. I just never thought Hiruzen would bypass a Shinobi of Jiraiya's caliber to appoint as Hokage, but there is no proof of Jiraiya getting mentioned, as far as I could remember, too.

    This I can agree with. Not a sage like Rikudou Sennin, but someone like Jiraiya, who is, despite all his foolish poses, actually smart.
    Who would ever think Jiraiya would one day be a man of justice and wisdom more than Orochimaru did ever become, back when they were both kids, I wonder (=

    They can have a battle of their own later on. It goes for Orochimaru, as well. If he somehow escapes Izanami, Kabuto, too. If they don't do anything against it, they will end up getting owned by the freaking genjutsu, anyway.
    So, mutual benefit is present in teaming up.

  8. #518
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Delbi's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 611 Discussion / 612 Prediction

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    If Naruto is able to change a God-knows-how-many-years-old obstinate Oonoki's heart, retrospectively, the whole Nagato case makes sense.
    As I pointed above, Nagato believed in Naruto only because the things Naruto went on and on were his ideals back then as a young man. It wasn't because Naruto has special power to convince people. You believe in people only when you really want to. In that case, Nagato wanted to believe in "himself" again, and had a moment of redemption.
    Though, I admit I still don't get the point of reviving fodder Shinobi as a way of redemption, when Nagato could keep himself alive and fight for his ideals himself again. In the end, Nagato gave up on his own in the final moment, yet, he entrusted another young kid with the task, who may well be bound to another failure.
    It just doesn't make sense to me.
    Problem with this is Naruto reasoning to change Nagato was terrible. Obviously, any normal person is going to agree that Nagato, Madara, and Obito's way of doing things is wrong, but Naruto couldn't give Nagato an answer, he simply said "I'm going to keep trying until I find an answer". What made Nagato believe he could do this, because he bested him in combat? Because he held up a book?

    Nagato's 180 was so unrealistic it isn't even funny. And in here lies the problem. Changing people with radical or strong beliefs simply isn't believable. People do not like to change how they think, they do not like being wrong. Naruto has essentially been proving people wrong, without himself actually being right. THAT, is a massive problem, and something that could never happen in the real world. You need evidence, proof, and answer, SOMETHING. Naruto has nothing other than the idea that he can eventually find an answer, and eventually win. What would happen if Naruto failed all these people that have entrusted their beliefs into him?

    ---------- Post added at 01:57 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:52 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    I dunno, even god-like power wouldn't have helped Naruto change people if it weren't for Naruto himself. His words have had more action than anything else, the fighting just made sure he survived long enough to beat it into people. His victory proved that "fuck destiny" and that despite suckin with normal bunshins, Naruto's a master of kage bunshin by working hard. ANd by never giving up, victory is possible because you plan to win. Gaara realized that it was possible to have bonds because Naruto gained bonds and fought hard to protect those bonds - he fought Gaara intensely to save Sakura.

    And I guess Naruto reminded Nagato of his old self. I do think Nagato was too easily convinced though.
    The fuck destiny thing is irrelevant now because Naruto is the "destined child". So in hindsight that speech of is was nothing but a lie, even though he didn't know it was a lie at the time.

    But if it were not for the Kyuubi Naruto would be long dead by now. Sasuke would have killed him at the VOTE, and this story would be over. Naruto achieving all of what he has is cheapened by the fact he can cheat death where others can not. When people look at Naruto they think "wow this kid is something" without realizing that he is only able to be "something" because of the mythical beast inside him. This the problem. Naruto simple way of thinking, his entire ability to push past a normal persons limits, to push past all these obstacles is thanks to the Kyuubi.

    So to me, IMO, Naruto's shallow ideals and limited explanations of how to solve problems only work because of the Kyuubi. Whether or not he made the power is own is irrelevant.
    "The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

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  10. #519
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member marshall313's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 611 Discussion / 612 Prediction

    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi View Post
    The problem with all of this is we are trying to put realistic expectations on Kishi's fantastical idea that what Naruto is doing can actually work. Once Nagato was turned with talk no jutsu book no jutsu mega combo, that was it, it was all over.

    Naruto changing other people is one thing, specifically, Neji and Gaara because they were both children. In Neji's case, Naruto proved him wrong in a believable sense. In Gaara's case Naruto showed him he wasn't alone, and showed him that he knew his pain.

    Nagato however was a man; and incredibly stupid and gullible man, but a man none the less. The fact Naruto was able to change his entire way of thinking in a matter of minutes goes to show how unrealistic the idea is that Naruto can change everyone. That to me, was the moment was the make or break moment of this entire manga, and since then Kishi hasn't turned back. Once this happened people should have stopped putting realistic expectations of Kishi giving a shit about making his manga realistic or even having making sense.

    But saying that, I have to disagree with the idea that Naruto's way of thinking is wrong. It is simply misunderstood and articulated terribly because Naruto is an idiot and Kishi has been a poor writer for the past 5 years.

    Case and point: Naruto is often too stupid to realize how hopeless a situation is (except when pinned to the ground by Pain): and thus, with the help of plot no jutsu, he always wins. <<<THIS is the problem. Naruto does not know true failure. Naruto losing Jiraiya happened when he was irrelevant to Jiraiya's fate. He was too weak to prevent it at the time. But that wouldn't have mattered, again if Kishi changed one thing. If he let Nagato actually die a villain, and not revive everyone. If that would have happened, Naruto's character would have grown into the character we all wished he could. He would realize that, yes, you can achieve great things through hard work, but sometimes those great things come at a price, sometimes, despite your best efforts, you can't win, and even when you do win, your win can be hollow and pointless.
    Unrealistic?

    Nagato isn't really evil to begin with. He just seen his old self to naruto. His belief about peace and his goal to the ninja world are just coming back to his senses. It's just like the manipulation of obito to nagato was being replaced by naruto's words/opinion.

    Yeah, it may be a minute of change, but there's alot of real stories that happened exactly like nagato. A murderer who change his heart/opinion because of their love one's. A murderer who change his heart the moment he realized he was wrong. So for saying that nagato's change is unrealistic is kinda wrong.

    And the fact that naruto used nagato's opinion about peace, naruto is just simply kicking nagato's true self backed to normal.

  11. #520
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Hakuteiken's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 611 Discussion / 612 Prediction

    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi View Post
    Problem with this is Naruto reasoning to change Nagato was terrible. Obviously, any normal person is going to agree that Nagato, Madara, and Obito's way of doing things is wrong, but Naruto couldn't give Nagato an answer, he simply said "I'm going to keep trying until I find an answer". What made Nagato believe he could do this, because he bested him in combat? Because he held up a book?

    Nagato's 180 was so unrealistic it isn't even funny. And in here lies the problem. Changing people with radical or strong beliefs simply isn't believable. People do not like to change how they think, they do not like being wrong. Naruto has essentially been proving people wrong, without himself actually being right. THAT, is a massive problem, and something that could never happen in the real world. You need evidence, proof, and answer, SOMETHING. Naruto has nothing other than the idea that he can eventually find an answer, and eventually win. What would happen if Naruto failed all these people that have entrusted their beliefs into him?
    Yes, maybe the entire action of talking is trash. Then again, when Naruto was pinned to the ground, Nagato should have killed him off instead of giving a god-length preach about pain and the cycle of hatred.
    Nagato didn't believe in Naruto, nor in his answer. As you said, there is no such answer "I will keep looking for it". Jiraiya tried and failed. Nagato tried and failed. Naruto is no different. In the end, Nagato just recalled his own words to Jiraiya: "Faith is better than any plan".
    An eternal peace is a concept existing within an utopia, so that, you can only "believe" in it. Nothing more.

    Nagato believed in the ideals passed down to him and Naruto. He had no reason to personally believe in Naruto and the only reason I can see in questioning him with "How?" was this.
    So, now then, why didn't he just embrace his ideals again when he encountered Jiraiya? The words taken from his book can make a change, but the man himself cannot?
    I agree, it's not realistic.

    ---------- Post added at 01:05 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:02 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by marshall313 View Post
    Unrealistic?

    Nagato isn't really evil to begin with. He just seen his old self to naruto. His belief about peace and his goal to the ninja world are just coming back to his senses. It's just like the manipulation of obito to nagato was being replaced by naruto's words/opinion.

    Yeah, it may be a minute of change, but there's alot of real stories that happened exactly like nagato. A murderer who change his heart/opinion because of their love one's. A murderer who change his heart the moment he realized he was wrong. So for saying that nagato's change is unrealistic is kinda wrong.

    And the fact that naruto used nagato's opinion about peace, naruto is just simply kicking nagato's true self backed to normal.
    Yes, it's not that I find Nagato to come back to his old self unrealistic.
    What I find as unrealistic is Jiraiya's failure in triggering that change.

    Though, from a certain standpoint, that entire talk was about Jiraiya, Nagato and finally, Naruto's shared ideals, so, I don't know.

  12. #521
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted xXan's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 611 Discussion / 612 Prediction

    @Rikudou King

    Quote Quote:
    Was talking about the current situation, Naruto having no obstacles during this war. It appears that some believe that since Naruto overcame the difficulties against Nagato, he should no longer have to do it again, which doesn't make sense. We had the wonderful showing against Nagato of Naruto proving Jiraiya's belief was correct, even if it could have been done less DEM.

    I really wouldn't call the Kyuubi's recent actions an obstacle given that Naruto had to face no challenge to achieve them.
    Well i do belive its not necesary after the Pein event. That was enough to shape him in the man he is NOW. That was his TURNING POINT. Then he was able to defeat his dark side. What is it left? Yes life is a continous fight/change but he is just about up there. There is no longer a need for psychological barriers. I don't even agree with Itachi when he said Naruto was doing crep because of his ego. He was doing it to SAVE HIS FRIENDS, not becoming trash and loosing them. That is what Minato/Kushina/JMan/Nagato/Konan and a few other entrusted him to do. ITS HIS LEGACY.

    Thing is he does have obstacles curently.
    Even curently he is SHOWING OBITO how his way of the ninja is the right way and how he is NOT going to become trash (even if its somewhat naive). He is curently sholdering (or at least trying) the hate of the world and the war itself. Everywhere he goes he finds people that don't belive in him and he NEEDS to prove himself. What do you think its curently going on with Obito. How about Kakashi and Naruto piking him up after he found about Obito. Even with Kakashi Naruto demonstrates his will to don't give up. Wth Obito he is demonstrating how there is another way, HIS WAY.

    Now this are more psychological(to his faith) barriers as he is curently facing Madara/Obito and the bloody 10 tails. There is no great chalange then that (that we know of coruse).

    Also the Kyuubi was ALWAYS an obstacle and Naruto even curently had to PROVE HIMSELF to Kurama before they teamed up. Do you remember when Kurama was going on and on how he can't do shit and then Naruto had to enforce his possiton on how he can't question himself?
    Even the chapter itself is names with Naruto having to provide proof of his good will:
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/569

    Seriously it was and obstacle.

    The only thing i see here are people QQ-ing about Kishi's writing skills... I don't even understand why some people follow the manga (not you) or why they bother posting around here. I can see pages and pages of nothing but moaning of how lame and what not the manga is and how Naruto's goal is noting but naive and crep.
    Last edited by xXan; December 04, 2012 at 02:24 AM.

  13. #522
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Delbi's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 611 Discussion / 612 Prediction

    Quote Originally Posted by marshall313 View Post
    Unrealistic?

    Nagato isn't really evil to begin with. He just seen his old self to naruto. His belief about peace and his goal to the ninja world are just coming back to his senses. It's just like the manipulation of obito to nagato was being replaced by naruto's words/opinion.

    Yeah, it may be a minute of change, but there's alot of real stories that happened exactly like nagato. A murderer who change his heart/opinion because of their love one's. A murderer who change his heart the moment he realized he was wrong. So for saying that nagato's change is unrealistic is kinda wrong.

    And the fact that naruto used nagato's opinion about peace, naruto is just simply kicking nagato's true self backed to normal.
    Nagato's original self failed. That's the problem. Naruto is nothing more than Nagato 2.0 in that regard, so why would he assume he could succeed where Nagato failed? And being evil to begin with is irrelevant. No one is originally good or evil.

    And Nagato isn't simply a murderer. He is a mass murdering terrorist with plans for world domination who was very likely insane to some degree. It is one thing for a normal person to commit murderer and feel bad about it, it is another thing for someone like Nagato to do the same. If you can't see how that is unrealistic then there is no point in continuing this conversation.
    "The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

  14. #523
    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 611 Discussion / 612 Prediction

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    I know. I just never thought Hiruzen would bypass a Shinobi of Jiraiya's caliber to appoint as Hokage, but there is no proof of Jiraiya getting mentioned, as far as I could remember, too.
    With someone like Orochimaru, I doubt he'd have cared about Jiraiya. Though, Hiruzen probably knew about Jiraiya not wanting teh spot, so he was never mentioned. Someone probably mentioned Jiraiya was better gathering intels by going out the village and all. If you compare Jiraiya and Orochimaru side by side, most people will pick Orochimaru because he's a known genius. Plus, with someone like Minato, Jiraiya would have too much competition. Naruto however, is far too young, and despite his power, isn't mentally able to fulfill the role. Minato may have been the youngest, but he was mentally capable and ready, as proven. Kakashi was also smart, powerful, and well known (like Naruto will be), not to mention having Minato has his teacher, and Sakumo as his father.

    Sadly, Kishi can't make Naruto a hokage in a feasible way if he keeps him as he is. Naruto needs to mature and get smarter, like he was meant to in Part I. <_<

    Quote Quote:
    This I can agree with. Not a sage like Rikudou Sennin, but someone like Jiraiya, who is, despite all his foolish poses, actually smart.
    Who would ever think Jiraiya would one day be a man of justice and wisdom more than Orochimaru did ever become, back when they were both kids, I wonder (=
    Let's hope Kishi realizes he can make Naruto quite similar to Jiraiya, yet unique. Naruto can be the less perverted, more loudmouthed version of Jiraiya. When Naruto got serious, like Jiraiya, he was epic. I hope Naruto learns a lot of jutsu that Jiraiya knew, especially since as Kyuubi's jinchuuriki and kage bunshin user, he'd be extremely dangerous.

    Quote Quote:
    They can have a battle of their own later on. It goes for Orochimaru, as well. If he somehow escapes Izanami, Kabuto, too. If they don't do anything against it, they will end up getting owned by the freaking genjutsu, anyway.
    So, mutual benefit is present in teaming up.
    Don't care if they fight, to be honest. I don't want to see Kyuubi vs. Susano'o. If they did have normal fight though, like in VotE, then I'd be eager to read it.

    True, but Orochimaru probably has a good defense against the genjutsu. He apparently had tons of info about anything, he could have prepared a way to prevent getting hit with the genjutsu. Maybe this is one of the reasons why he was hellbent on Akatsuki's destruction.

    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi View Post
    Problem with this is Naruto reasoning to change Nagato was terrible. Obviously, any normal person is going to agree that Nagato, Madara, and Obito's way of doing things is wrong, but Naruto couldn't give Nagato an answer, he simply said "I'm going to keep trying until I find an answer". What made Nagato believe he could do this, because he bested him in combat? Because he held up a book?

    Nagato's 180 was so unrealistic it isn't even funny. And in here lies the problem. Changing people with radical or strong beliefs simply isn't believable. People do not like to change how they think, they do not like being wrong. Naruto has essentially been proving people wrong, without himself actually being right. THAT, is a massive problem, and something that could never happen in the real world. You need evidence, proof, and answer, SOMETHING. Naruto has nothing other than the idea that he can eventually find an answer, and eventually win. What would happen if Naruto failed all these people that have entrusted their beliefs into him?
    Reminds me of the Kyuubi's 180. Out of nowhere,and too unrealistic with what we know about it.

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  16. #524
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Delbi's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 611 Discussion / 612 Prediction

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    Yes, maybe the entire action of talking is trash. Then again, when Naruto was pinned to the ground, Nagato should have killed him off instead of giving a god-length preach about pain and the cycle of hatred.
    Nagato didn't believe in Naruto, nor in his answer. As you said, there is no such answer "I will keep looking for it". Jiraiya tried and failed. Nagato tried and failed. Naruto is no different. In the end, Nagato just recalled his own words to Jiraiya: "Faith is better than any plan".
    An eternal peace is a concept existing within an utopia, so that, you can only "believe" in it. Nothing more.

    Nagato believed in the ideals passed down to him and Naruto. He had no reason to personally believe in Naruto and the only reason I can see in questioning him with "How?" was this.
    So, now then, why didn't he just embrace his ideals again when he encountered Jiraiya? The words taken from his book can make a change, but the man himself cannot?
    I agree, it's not realistic.
    Nagato needed Naruto alive so that much is irrelevant.

    IMO people that believe "Faith is better than any plan" are people who are unwilling to accept the reality of the world. Naruto is one of these people. He is unwilling to accept that he is a shinobi, a trained killer. That his best friend is a murderous lunatic, and that as long as humans are humans, hatred will always exist because of things like jealousy, death, hardship etc.

    And IMO, change of the scale Naruto and Nagato were talking of is indeed impossible, or at the very least, is not possible in any foreseeable future where humans act like normal humans.
    Last edited by Delbi; December 04, 2012 at 02:21 AM.
    "The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

  17. #525
    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 611 Discussion / 612 Prediction

    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi View Post
    The fuck destiny thing is irrelevant now because Naruto is the "destined child". So in hindsight that speech of is was nothing but a lie, even though he didn't know it was a lie at the time.
    Well, it was pretty relevant at the time. It can still be relevant as well, considering Naruto's actions did change Neji and his "destiny," as well as many others'. But it was a shitty decision to introduce the concept of "destined child" when Naruto fought hard against his "destiny" and aimed to make a new path.

    Quote Quote:
    But if it were not for the Kyuubi Naruto would be long dead by now. Sasuke would have killed him at the VOTE, and this story would be over. Naruto achieving all of what he has is cheapened by the fact he can cheat death where others can not. When people look at Naruto they think "wow this kid is something" without realizing that he is only able to be "something" because of the mythical beast inside him. This the problem. Naruto simple way of thinking, his entire ability to push past a normal persons limits, to push past all these obstacles is thanks to the Kyuubi.
    If not for Kyuubi, Gaara would have killed Naruto, Neji would have beaten Naruto, and who knows how he'd have done against Haku or even Orochimaru and the snake when they were fighting Sasuke?

    I'm not sure if it's thanks to the Kyuubi though. Remember when Orochimaru messed up the seal during the Forest of Death exam? Naruto was still able to push himself and keep going against the Rain (?) genin when they were close to the tower. He wasn't able to use the Kyuubi's power at all. He also beat Kiba without using Kyuubi's power. I will stand firm by the belief that Naruto pushes himself past a normal person's limit and obstacles. The Kyuubi didn't help him when he was training to master rasengan, other than when Naruto was passed out, if I recall. Naruto was the one who stabbed his hand and made a vow, he's the one who kept practicing rasengan despite the condition of his hand.

    Quote Quote:
    So to me, IMO, Naruto's shallow ideals and limited explanations of how to solve problems only work because of the Kyuubi. Whether or not he made the power is own is irrelevant.
    No, it's also because he can either relate to others or prove others wrong. By winning, he proved Neji wrong about the concept of destiny. By relating to Gaara, he showed that even Gaara could make bonds.

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