Naruto 611 Discussion

[Uchiha_Blood]

I'll be damned. You said this:
You said that if they were using their own powers Sasuke could not use the Sharingan. This implies that the Sharingan is not considered his power. It may not have been what you meant, but it's what you said. As for the MS I'll never understand how anyone could consider loss of sanity not a real cost.

Its because, right now, without Itachi's eyes he would be without his own eyes ( since he gave them to Obito ) or blind ( thanks to MS overuse )
Not because its Sharingan is something or he's weak, its because he was forced to swap eyes, otherwise he wouldn't be able to fight

---------- Post added at 09:16 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:11 AM ----------

And did I say anything about Naruto?

And while Sasuke needed Itachi to die, Naruto needed his father to repair his seal, Bee's help to train to defeat his inner demons, and his mother to help him fight the Kyuubi.

Which for the record, the Kyuubi is "LOADS" more powerful than EMS.

And Naruto still lacks a counter to Amaterasu without the Kyuubi, and simple Sharigan genjutsu. Even if Sasuke was half blind like Itachi, he still has the chakra to spam Sussano and kick Naruto's ass. Naruto without the Kyuubi is powerful, but not nealy powerful enough to stand up to an MS user of Sasuke's caliber, even if he's half blind.

I politely disagree, EMS showed to be on par with a Bijuu in sheer power, just see Madara and his Perfect Susano'o ( and Sasuke's version would be even stronger, since it would have Enton weapons ).
Also I distincly remember 2 Sharingan users who tamed the Kyuubi pretty easily, Sharingan has a lot of pretty crafty abilities that compensate his "lack" of firepower ( even though I distinctly remember Amaterasu burning a Bijuu ).

And no, Sasuke wouldn't be able to since, as I said to ninjabot, without Itachi's eyes he would be either blind or without eyes.
In an Arena kind of contest, with Sasuke at full power with MS, of course he has a lot of chances to defeat Naruto

[Delbi]

But sasuke never killed his brother. And he never intended to gain the MS at that fight.

And no, sasuke's so called genius stuff never allowed him to advance or learn on how to use his MS power, I'm pretty sure itachi stab sasuke's head with his finger of knowledge to give sasuke the knowledge on how to used that power. Itachi already create a program on how to used the MS power and inserted it on sasuke's head drive.

The MS and how to use that power was easily handed by itachi to sasuke. Sasuke earned that power with ease.

So Itachi taught Sasuke how to use Amaterasu and Sussano in ways he never could? Right..... It was Sasuke's genius that led him to create Enton, and to utilize his MS like he has.

The power was not easily handed to him. Sasuke had to train his entire life to even get close to his brothers level, nearly died fighting him, and then had to suffer the agony of knowing his brother was a decent man and actually loved him. He earned the damn thing.

---------- Post added at 10:52 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:47 AM ----------

I politely disagree, EMS showed to be on par with a Bijuu in sheer power, just see Madara and his Perfect Susano'o ( and Sasuke's version would be even stronger, since it would have Enton weapons ).
Also I distincly remember 2 Sharingan users who tamed the Kyuubi pretty easily, Sharingan has a lot of pretty crafty abilities that compensate his "lack" of firepower ( even though I distinctly remember Amaterasu burning a Bijuu ).

And no, Sasuke wouldn't be able to since, as I said to ninjabot, without Itachi's eyes he would be either blind or without eyes.
In an Arena kind of contest, with Sasuke at full power with MS, of course he has a lot of chances to defeat Naruto

1) Sasuke has not shown to be capable of using the Final Sussano. That is Madara's power, not Sasuke's, it remains to be seen if Sasuke can do that.

2) Even if he can use it, can he last long with it? The amount of chakra and life force it must consume should be extraordinary. The Kyuubi essentially gives Naruto an unlimited supply of chakra.

3) We are not talking about any old Biju. This the Kyuubi, who's Biju Dama is stronger than 6 Biju Dama from tailed beasts 2-7 combined.

4) Of course the Sharigan has other powers, but almost all of them come at a price or are situational. It is more a more diverse power EMS, but not a more powerful one.

5) Sasuke was not blind after he fought Danzou, Kakashi, and Naruto. Did his vision suck? O yes, it did, but he was not blind. At no point in this manga has he ever been blind aside from the moment when his eyes were removed in favor of Itachi's.

---------- Post added at 10:53 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:52 AM ----------

Remember when Naruto was first teaching himself FRS? I just remembered that he totally stopped expanding FRS that far ever again- he was slicing the tops off of mountains in the blink of an eye, and now it's just a destructo disc with a nougaty center of wind C4. I wonder when he's going to use it to change the whole battlefield like Madara's jutsu typically do.

Those were not "Mountains" in comparison to the ones that surround Konoha or the Mountains around where they are fighting now. FRS pales in comparsion to a Bijudama.

[shafagh]

No you're wrong Jiraiya wasn't an Uzumaki and had sage mode! Stop trying to detract from Naruto for your baseless and senseless arguments! Also last I checked if your chakra is specifically adapted to control the Kyuubi how is that not a bloodline limit? Was the sage not considered the best because only he could host jyuubi? Isn't that what Madara is doing now? Trying to seal the Jyuubi to make it his OWN POWER! Face it being an Uzumaki whether a Jin or not is comparable to the level of eyes in a Uchiha, MS= Sage Mode, EMS=Kyuubi/ jyuubi... Lastly Both characters were given power ups deal with it but they're their powers respectively.... Even if Naruto has the Kyuubi and Sasuke has Itachi's eyes....

sigh ... you get it wrong ... Jiraya couldn't master sage mode without special body ( Uzumaki , Senjo , Juggo body ) in 40 years but Naruto could master it with his special and strong body in only one week !!!! , even oro couldn't master it without Special body , So Naruto's Uzumaki body help him as well .. ........ the point of my post is that Naruto has his own blood line limit and if some one want to compare Sasuke and Naruto , he/she should compare Sasuke's sharingan with Naruto's uzumaki body not QB ....

[chilibun]

And no, Sasuke wouldn't be able to since, as I said to ninjabot, without Itachi's eyes he would be either blind or without eyes.
In an Arena kind of contest, with Sasuke at full power with MS, of course he has a lot of chances to defeat Naruto

Well, if you are going to use plot events to compare powers, then I can make the argument that Naruto should have been dead a long time ago. He is saved from death in almost every one of his fights by the Kyuubi. He wouldn't have even lasted beyond Haku (unless that transy spares him). And that's really why the Kyuubi powerup is so OP compared to anything else in Naruto. Kishi has and will use it to save Naruto from death and empower him to win any fight at any time. Regardless of how haxed you think the sharingan is, Sasuke is still bound to the normal rules of mortals. He will run out of chakra and he will die from injuries. He has been defeated and needed to be saved multiple times already. The Kyuubi on the otherhand, basically makes Naruto immortal. He can get into any situation and Kyuubi will and can just magically save and win him the fight.

[Uchiha_Blood]

1) Sasuke has not shown to be capable of using the Final Sussano. That is Madara's power, not Sasuke's, it remains to be seen if Sasuke can do that.

2) Even if he can use it, can he last long with it? The amount of chakra and life force it must consume should be extraordinary. The Kyuubi essentially gives Naruto an unlimited supply of chakra.

3) We are not talking about any old Biju. This the Kyuubi, who's Biju Dama is stronger than 6 Biju Dama from tailed beasts 2-7 combined.

4) Of course the Sharigan has other powers, but almost all of them come at a price or are situational. It is more a more diverse power EMS, but not a more powerful one.

5) Sasuke was not blind after he fought Danzou, Kakashi, and Naruto. Did his vision suck? O yes, it did, but he was not blind. At no point in this manga has he ever been blind aside from the moment when his eyes were removed in favor of Itachi's.

1) He has the potential to obtain it, meaning in the future he can match Naruto's power.
This without considering the scroll's massive power-up

2) Search syx's beautiful post regarding Kakashi's chakra, stamina and chakra aren't issues anymore, Sasuke will be able to keep Susano'o activated for years, should the plot demand it

3) Said Kyuubi was Madara's and Obito's pet.
So?

4) Sasuke's Sharingan can copy jutsus, anticipate movements, bind in a genjutsu, create hellish flames, create a stronger genjutsu and create a huge chakra construct capable of launching balls of unestinguishable flames.
The only things that come to a price are Izanami and Izanagi, and I doubt even Kishi would make jutsus that alter reality free of charge

5) He had the same kind of vision Itachi had when he fought Sasuke, and he was almost blind. Another fight and he would be blind half-way from it.

Well, if you are going to use plot events to compare powers, then I can make the argument that Naruto should have been dead a long time ago. He is saved from death in almost every one of his fights by the Kyuubi. He wouldn't have even lasted beyond Haku (unless that transy spares him). And that's really why the Kyuubi powerup is so OP compared to anything else in Naruto. Kishi has and will use it to save Naruto from death and empower him to win any fight at any time. Regardless of how haxed you think the sharingan is, Sasuke is still bound to the normal rules of mortals. He will run out of chakra and he will die from injuries. He has been defeated and needed to be saved multiple times already. The Kyuubi on the otherhand, basically makes Naruto immortal. He can get into any situation and Kyuubi will and can just magically save and win him the fight.

Plot events?
So Naruto having the Kyuubi isn't a plot event? Sasuke's Mangekyo isn't the only Mangekyo that made the user blind, it also happened to Madara and Itachi, meaning its something perfectly natural.
Using the plot as an excuse isn't gonna work, the issue was that someone said Sasuke earned his power ups, to which I answered that he didn't earn EMS just to name the most recent example and, without it, he would be blind

And I can remember Sasuke being as protected by the plots as Naruto is, without having an almighty Bijuu in his gut might I add

[roggie]

Well, if you are going to use plot events to compare powers, then I can make the argument that Naruto should have been dead a long time ago. He is saved from death in almost every one of his fights by the Kyuubi. He wouldn't have even lasted beyond Haku (unless that transy spares him). And that's really why the Kyuubi powerup is so OP compared to anything else in Naruto. Kishi has and will use it to save Naruto from death and empower him to win any fight at any time. Regardless of how haxed you think the sharingan is, Sasuke is still bound to the normal rules of mortals. He will run out of chakra and he will die from injuries. He has been defeated and needed to be saved multiple times already. The Kyuubi on the otherhand, basically makes Naruto immortal. He can get into any situation and Kyuubi will and can just magically save and win him the fight.

yeah, i miss those days when this actually used to happen...

[mattiaildivino]

if madara and obito aren't "the ones who know everything", then I can only think that the one who knows everything is kagami uchiha,it's the only way to bring him into the story,cause it would be nasty if new characters aware of all the events joined the manga out of the blue.

[EMS]

next chapter..
MADARA: I'M TIRED OF ALL OF YOU,
MASARA;mokuton kourin kajukai(the flower tree world), everyone is gone

[KiSwordsman]

Lol neither has Sakura and Lee. Sakura is allegedly a "main character", or so descriptions of the series tell me, but all we see of her is how her hilariously offensive-to-all-sexes feminine indecision nearly kills her every now and then. Except when she punches something. Then I guess she's cool.

Rock Lee was/is one of the most popular (and downright likeable) characters in the whole series. He deserved his own story like Shikamaru's more than anyone for all the crap he went through. Gaara becomes Kage but Lee fades into obscurity? Shenanigans.

The focus of my post was mainly why I'm done with all doujutsu, Byakugan included. While I can appreciate both Sakura and Lee for the the focus that both of their characters got. At least Lee nor Neji for that matter were regressed like Sakura was. All Lee and Neji really lacked was focus. Sakura's character was made "heroic," which equated to irredeemable destruction by the author. Hinata though, She was never given anything, character wise, besides Naruto. I mean didn't Kishimoto say in an interview that she would have made a better main character? If that is to be believed, of course. I'm just like, "if that's the case, then why didn't you make it that way?" As it is though, it's taken her practically the entirety of the series to show resolve in regard to Naruto. Because that is the only thing that really gives her character any meaning.

[mattiaildivino]

next chapter..
MADARA: I'M TIRED OF ALL OF YOU,
MASARA;mokuton kourin kajukai(the flower tree world), everyone is gone

choji:" super expansion technique, overwhelming thorny bullet!"
Kiba:" akamaru,sister, kuromaru (her sister's dog), let's merge! super 4heads-wolf!"
lee:" 6 gates! morning peacock"
Mifune:" samurai,try to do what I'm gonna do: multiple slices!"
and the job should be done,at least I think the alliance will slow down madara's technique,and prevent naruto from being affected by them. if that doesn't work,tenten can always use her nuclear bomb

[jalix]

Not trying to pick apart the post, just want to add my thoughts to it/against it if need be.

1) Sasuke has not shown to be capable of using the Final Sussano. That is Madara's power, not Sasuke's, it remains to be seen if Sasuke can do that.

For now it's Madara's power but Sasuke's hinted at being able to use it before he even had Itachi's eyes. Just before he went blind, his Susano'O started to be enveloped by Itachi's as the hatred built up within him. We haven't had the opportunity to see it yet, but I wouldn't at all be surprised to see him use it.

2) Even if he can use it, can he last long with it? The amount of chakra and life force it must consume should be extraordinary. The Kyuubi essentially gives Naruto an unlimited supply of chakra.

It should be. But Sasuke is anything but normal and the way he's built up from a character perspective is extraordinary. Thinking about it, that guy should be broken, in a psychiatric ward or dead. But there he is. And then there's no telling what else happened to him with Orochimaru. I definitely wouldn't put it past Kishimoto to give him a 'boost' so he could use it.

5) Sasuke was not blind after he fought Danzou, Kakashi, and Naruto. Did his vision suck? O yes, it did, but he was not blind. At no point in this manga has he ever been blind aside from the moment when his eyes were removed in favor of Itachi's.

I think this is a matter of semantics. He may not have been blind per the link below, but the way his pupils were drawn to me suggest that he was well on his way to becoming the Ray Charles of the Uchiha clan.

http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v52/c484/11.html

The beauty of their (Naruto & Sasuke) conflict (if it even comes to pass) is that they will have a difficult time with one another's maneuvers. It will not be a walk in teh park for Sasuke, and it will not be a walk in the park by Naruto. Kishimoto will find a way to make it interesting and clever. I think he's already been working on ways to make it interesting. If Amaterasu has a counter, Kishimoto will of course come up with it. I remember Jiraiya sealed the flames in Pt. 1 - who knows what can happen later with a new ability or something. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if they fought and Naruto didn't have the kyuubi, as weird as that sounds. Though I think he will, and it will be a counter to that incredible susano'o jutsu.

Anyways, I just think there's nothing at all ordinary about Sasuke, Naruto, or Madara. They defy the 'logic' the manga dictates, which makes them the special outliers. They are the plot and the story (big, big parts, at least). Naruto *should* have been killed, but wasn't. IN fact, Naruto should've been easily captured. All Akatsuki had to do was say:

Pain: "Look. Kisame, Deidara, Sasori, Kakuzu, Hidan - I have a job for you. Konoha is sending the 9 tails jinchuuriki on assignments with Kakashi, the leftover Uchiha, and a girl with pink hair. Surely you can overwhelm them and take him with next to no struggle at all."
Kisame: "Then what will you do? We need the other bijuu."
Pain: "Don't worry about it. Konan's made 1,000 coloring books to keep him occupied."

I actually use a little imagion and at least pretend that Naruto was always watched by ANBU or Root as a little kid when he was say 7 years old or whatever. But... meh.

sigh ... you get it wrong ... Jiraya couldn't master sage mode without special body ( Uzumaki , Senjo , Juggo body ) in 40 years but Naruto could master it with his special and strong body in only one week !!!! , even oro couldn't master it without Special body , So Naruto's Uzumaki body help him as well .. ........ the point of my post is that Naruto has his own blood line limit and if some one want to compare Sasuke and Naruto , he/she should compare Sasuke's sharingan with Naruto's uzumaki body not QB ....

I don't know. I think you're right that the body has to be pretty special but there's more to it IMO. Kabuto's a major outlier & when Jiraiya used sage mode he was fighting Pain - he didn't have an opportunity to sit and gather natural energy, he was on his own. Maybe he couldn't use it without the frogs... He summoned ma/pa frog who I believe gathered natural energy from their shoulder. But this wouldn't work with Naruto because the they couldn't interface with the kyuubi. Not only that, but Naruto couldn't bring the oil because it's effects wouldn't work - so the solution was a creative usage of Kage Bunshin's, but it looks like Naruto has long since gotten better at sage mode. Orochimaru... would you be surprised if he showed the ability to be a dragon sage? I wouldn't. I think it's 100% possible there was a lot of critical information that he witheld from Kabuto. I still think it was odd how he stared at Kabuto when Sasuke brought him from Anko. I tend to think Orochimaru knows more about being a sage than Kabuto could imagine. It's why I think, should Kabuto awaken and maybe even become a decent person, he may be oblitherated by Orochimaru as Kishimoto attempts to display his power.

As for the body, We don't know if Jiraiya was a senju or not, but I almost think he was because while he couldn't perfect sage mode without ma/pa frog, he could still use natural energy with them and study them, and I think he had signfiicant chakra. Also... the frogs mentioned Minato being a sage, and he was not an Uzumaki & we don't know for certain if he was a senju (though I think he was since it's been mentioned that Tobirama also knew S/T jutsu, etc). What made naruto special was that he had considerable chakra, and was able to use kage bunshin to an extent (as long as Pa was able to whack out the statue transformation) to speed up the process. And... Naruto's just special.

IMO the sharingan is a part of Sasuke and for now the Kyuubi is a part of Naruto. If they win a fight or are saved because of it, no big deal to me. They are just fortunate while some other characters obviously aren't, and not everyone can be special characters in the story.

[Invader]

FRS didn't cut through mountains

Yeah - they sort of look like mountains a bit, but they are actually giant bamboo shoots that grow in the Toad kingdom. That isn't to say that they aren't HUGE, and bamboo shoots can push their way through stone so they are very tough. But yeah - they weren't mountains.

He is saved from death in almost every one of his fights by the Kyuubi. He wouldn't have even lasted beyond Haku

To be fair - quite a few of those early fights were NOT the Kyuubi 'saving' Naruto by any stretch. Rather, the 8 Trigram seal was designed to allow the Kyuubi's chakra to 'leak out' into Naruto. Over the years, it resulted in naruto having a much larger chakra capacity than most people - and when he taps into that 'mix' it shoots even higher. I don't think Haku or even Neji were the result of the Kyuubi 'helping' Naruto as much as it was Naruto tapping into that big chunk of chakra that was 'leaking' into him.

There were definitely times when Naruto had to get more from the Kyuubi directly - but I don't think it is fair to say that everything Naruto did before the time skip was the result of Kurama yanking his chestnuts out of the fire, any more than you could say that Sauske didn't really win any fights until after he got the Curse Seal. Does that mean Sauske only 'won' with Orochimaru 'helping' him? Of course not.

[Kid Chameleone]

i dont know why people are complaining about power levels and shit this far into the manga. BOTH naruto and sasuke are op and built like tanks the reason people are complaining is cause sasukes not retarded like naruto. Lets look at the two characters:

Sasuke
Sharigan, MS, EMS
Fire techs
lightning techs
fast as fuck
swordsmaster
Hawk summons

Naruto
Kyuubi
sage mode
uzumaki (potential for sealing techs)
kage bushin
wind element
frog summons
massive chakra
rapid healing

If we look at both characters they've both got op powers and are pretty balanced so let me explain why youre pissed, NARUTO IS RETARDED!.

Kishi built naruto and sasuke to have the same amount of potential but naruto is a fuckin idiot, plain and simple. He has access to as many abilities as sasuke but kishi built him like a moron so he never uses them.

ever since the beginning of the manga weve seen sasuke busting his ass training so everytime he pulls out something new i dont care because i know at some point he waxed on and waxed off to earn that move.

Naruto, every time he learns something new or scratches the surface of new potential he simply rushes into a new fight and gets a new rasengan and im tired of that shit! He never trains, he simply jumps on the kyuubi and rides it to the finish line in nearly all of his fights.

Think about it, if naruto was using wind, sealing and other techs opposed to rasengan and kagebushin every two seconds we wouldnt be having this pointless argument about power levels at the end of the manga. If naruto used his head like sasuke did we wouldnt need to argue wed just be waiting for how epic the final fight would be.

People are complaining about pointless shit. Sasuke and the sharigan arent op theyre developed, if kishi decided to explore narutos talents (even off screen) wed have nothing to complain about but he doesnt. Naruto is under developed, plain and simple. He has the same, if not more potential but it was ignored, you cant blame sasuke for kishi making him more boss than the main character.

Both of them were thrown power ups, yes, but sasuke is the only character who made them his own and explored their possibilities which is why he has so many techs and variations.

Naruto is too simple minded, kishi tried to make naruto like goku, stupid but sweet, but goku was never stupid, he was socially retarded and made silly comments but overall his mind and battle prowess were unstoppable. Naruto is stupid on and off the battlefield which is why well never like him as much as sasuke or why hell never be epic as goku.

Look at it like this, sasuke is a character who bought a beat up car and FIXED EVERYTHING before he drives it, naruto is a character who takes off as soon as he gets the engine running

---------- Post added at 02:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:51 PM ----------

and stop with the sharigan bs thats its op, it got beat by the hidden mist jutsu. thats like a c rank jutsu, it can be beat with skill and ingenuity dont get mad because some characters cant think outside the box and use something to hinder their vision. yes it does come with op moves but they go blind so its balanced perfectly

[dex]

i dont know why people are complaining about power levels and shit this far into the manga. BOTH naruto and sasuke are op and built like tanks the reason people are complaining is cause sasukes not retarded like naruto. Lets look at the two characters:

Naruto is an idiotic ass and Sasuke is a emo jackass...idk why are you getting so emo over it ?
whatever happens kishi will make them equlas by the end of naruto...that is plot driven...so we can find as many as reasons as we want but its bound to happen

[Rikudou King]

The fact that Kishimoto has ignored it is why I'm done with it too. The only two "important" characters that have the Byakugan are Neji and Hinata. The ladder's only real importance has to do with the main character due to the fact that her entire character revolves around Naruto. Whereas Neji, despite being the only Jonin of the Konoha 12, has not seen any focus at all since the beginning of the second part. If one could even call it that. Unless Kishimoto wants to literally pull an ability for the Byakugan out thin air in the upcoming fight, it will never again come close to the Sharingan or Rinnegan, and whatever the hell it is that the 10 tail is foreshadowing. even if Kishimoto were to do something like that for the Byakugan, I doubt he would be able to pull it off without it coming across as situational, and obvious balancing.

I don't know. The fact that Kishi has pretty much ignored them is the best part I think. Every time Kishi goes to focus on something or someone, he just makes them worst: Pain went from being the awesome leader of Akatsuki to a wussy puppet, Tobi went from a mysterious badass to sadface Obito, the Bijuus went from being forces of natures to misunderstood animals needing love, etc. Just imagine the horrors that would come to the Byakugan and Hyuuga clan from some of Kishi's "focus".