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Madara wipes the floor with The Alliance, Meteor no Jutsu style.
Obito decides to finally use his Rinnegan and Chou Shinra Tensei The Alliance
Ino controls the Juubi and makes it eat Madara and Obito
Sasuke crashes the party and every fangirl screams
Hinata reveals she's the mastermind behind the Juubi, and backstabs Naruto
Juubi & Co decide they are suddenly weaker and let the Alliance do their thing while standing still like robots
Juubi does NOT fire his Bijuuhameha at the Alliance and patiently waits until Kyuubi is ready to dance
He sure sacrificed his own life to save his platoon from a certain death, which is an honorable act, but as you said, it's more of a duty for a Hokage to do it.
It was very easy to suspect them. Their rejection in Madara's ideals doesn't necessarily make it concrete that they had no one with similar opinions, but it means they were rather reluctant to act at that point. And yes, they weren't really that innocent, as their ceased desire for power returned to life when they felt they were left without governing powers.
I don't know. It's difficult to blame just one side and call them the bad guys on this.
It's more like a rivalry. Like the Jedi versus the Sith. Throughout the series, we are steered into thinking of the Jedi as good guys, and the Sith, as the bad ones.
In Narutoverse, the Jedi are the Senju, ad the Sith are the Uchiha.
I know, but what is that bad in having your own sense of justice going on? When Naruto becomes a Hokage one day, his mentality and view of things shouldn't be any different than that of Hiruzen. He'd not be able to bring himself to kill his pupil although knowing how dangerous he will be (Orochimaru), he'd object the Uchiha massacre and he'd eventually die for his village.
Hiruzen was a bad Kage by the standards of unending battles, though. You're right.
And I'm absolutely positive that we are long past the phase of making a choice. There isn't any option other than winning this fight.
Sarutobi's crazy title is another thing that could easily be rectified with a flashback of him fighting in his prime. I imagine he was a terrifying opponent, knowing every jutsu that he could physically learn from Konoha. It would only add to the fact that he knew Shiki Fuujin, one of the most convenient jutsu in the series.
---------- Post added at 11:54 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:48 AM ----------
This strikes me as one of those situations where editors unfairly get blamed for a series' flaws. An editor can can reject things, give feedback, and point out what he thinks works/doesn't work; maybe even suggest things that might work better. In a perfect world that kind of editing is basically a safety net for a writer.
Judging from the type of issues that have been coming up for Naruto I don't think it's a "strong editor bullying Kishi into doing what he wants". In fact, judging from the type of issues that have come up, it seems to me like the opposite. Where the guy is either too star struck or shy to give the kind of writing feedback that is needed to create a polished story.
An example of what I mean was having the battles versus Kabuto, Madara, and Tobi all at the same time. That's the kind of pacing in a storyboard should result in a long abusive profanity laced email from an editor; ending with the words "FIX THIS GARBAGE!"
I want to see the emperor realize he's wearing no clothes. Naruto needs to fail in some sense or another to remind himself how human and imperfect he is.
If a character doesn't accept their fears, they can never be brave.
If a character doesn't acknowledge their own foolishness, they can never be wise.
If a character doesn't see their own weakness, they can never become strong.
Naruto, as he is right now, is propped up by dozens similar of narrative crutches. I want to see them taken away. Let him fail, let some of his comrades die, let his foolishness come at a price. If Naruto really is the character I thought him to be, the story shouldn't be afraid of putting him through the same adversity that caused others to fall.
Give him the test of fire. It'll be rough, but he'll come out stronger and better for it.
Last edited by Jammin; December 03, 2012 at 12:53 PM.
Everything you say you want has already happened in the manga several times over. From his empty childhood, to rejection by the entire village, to desperate class clown, to academy failure, to defeat in his first fight, to repeated whompings, almost losing himself to the QB, to getting clobbered by Pain, fear of inadequacy, actual lack of adequacy driving him to try harder, deaths, defeats, doubts, yadda yadda yadda on and on and on and on. Naruto's been 'reminded' of his humanity and imperfection dozens of times.Quote:
You've already gotten everything you ever wanted. In spades. Times 1 billion. In fact it has happened so often, so constantly, and so completely that everyone was SICK of it. There were epic threads about this. People were sick of Naruto getting "kicked in the nuts". They were tired of his constant defeats. They were weary of him being the weakest guy in the whole storyline. We were tired of his repeated humilations, his neverending shortcomings, the insults, the defeats, the putdown, the lack of accomplishments. Do you forget - or do you choose to forget - that up until chapter 340 (over HALF the manga) Naruto really had no victory to call his own except over Kiba and Neji? We were all sick of his weakness and the fact that in every fight he was nothing but a punching bag that kept taking hit after hit with no retaliation except to say "I won't give up". Stick a fork in it - it's done - yeesh.
And all those nut-kickings, defeats, humiliations, insults and weakness are never good enough. There's always something else that someone says they "want Naruto to suffer" and so the goalpost gets moved. "Wah wah wah - some arbitrary, artificial, completely idiomatic standard that I am using to judge Naruto's character hasn't been exactly met because of my constantly shifting, nebulous, undefined personal whims and even though a ton of what I say I want is in the manga already, I'm going to ignore it and create an unattainable, endlessly altering set of fungible re-definitions and permutations of my requirements."
As Madara would say... "How unsightly..."
I would say you are a genius at that stuff. Also i am sure i am not the only one who would agree on this.
For me attributing the genius title only to people who have high computing power is wrong. I don't give a damn what a man's IQ is if said man can use a few words to move me to tears or compose the most beautiful poems. But yes generaly this people also have somewhere above average IQ.
I have a better quote for you about "genius":
Someone who can learn the shadow clone tech in not even a night IS a genius, someone who can turn in a few hours the most obsessed psychopathic killer into what Gaara is now IS a genius. Someone who can fundamentaly change people around him by just beeing there IS a genius. Remember Naruto was able to take SM to a level that nobody before could. We have a garden of statues of people who failed... Then we can go with FRS and so on.Quote:
Anyway someone with iq of 120 but HIGH creativity IS a genius to me.
The concept of genius can vary from people to people based on what said people concept of genius represents.
Also found this article, its interesting:
Last edited by xXan; December 03, 2012 at 03:39 PM.
Hear hear. Naruto is a genius. Not a person with a high IQ, but a genius in his own way. Those who say he is not are using some other set of standards to artificially LIMIT what they will or won't call a genius. That's fine. As your post indicates, the definition of 'genius' is multifaceted and subjective. There is no 'one true' definition for the term. However, to try to claim Naruto is NOT a genius when he is clearly exceptional on many levels is just being closed-minded and narrow.Quote:
Naruto is not a god. He cannot control the world and force it to go the way he wants. I don't blame him for making the promise, but it was a promise that is beyond his power to keep.
I don't object to Naruto growing stronger, or gaining success. What I object to is how shallow it all is.
Kid: "Mr. Naruto, how can I be great like you?"
Naruto: "Never give up!"
Kid: "I already do that...and things still don't work out."
Naruto: "Then do what I did and inherit the power of a pseudo god called the Kyuubi"
Kid: "Um....I can't do that..."
Naruto: "Ok, then get the author to write everything in your favor."
Kid: "What author...w-what are out talking about?"
Naruto: "Did I mention, the 'Never give up' thing?"
Kid: "I think I hear my mom calling" *runs away from the crazy man*
This is my point about what has happened to Naruto's characterization. He is not longer changing and growing as he meets adversity the way he once did. Instead the world is changing to accommodate him. Which makes his strength false and illusory, as well as making it difficult to respect or relate to.
You seem to be treating the situation like it's this kind it is this kind of false maturation, or nothing. And I reject that.
Last edited by Jammin; December 03, 2012 at 10:44 PM.
I think Madara's involvement would have been fine, had he remained the shell of himself Tobi. What would have helped though, would have been him a separate antagonist unrelated to Akatsuki or the villages, like Orochimaru. Have him as someone acting against both of those sides would have been interesting and added more drama. Of course, Nagato would have remained the final villain, except without the whole Konoha revival.
Well - I'm not trying to target "you" specifically. What I'm targeting is the general attitude, which you (and others) espouse. Yes - I am being harsh towards that concept - but I'm not targeting you specifically for derision. When it is your specific quote that is the example though, it is understandable to take it personally. I'll try harder to make the distinction clearer in the future. But the problem is that in a purely text-based format it is hard to keep from taking such a discussion personally when it is your ideas that are being attacked. Case in point...
If I was a very sensitive chap I'd say, "Woah - take it down a notch there Captain Rudeness". However, I'm able to separate the dispute with my 'idea' from your use of the personal pronoun "You". So while I was definitely butchering your opinion, I was not attacking "you".Quote:
But - on to your substance...
When Christ refused to accept "reality", but instead offered a superior philosophy based on humility, sacrifice, and repentance - was he refusing to change or grow with adversity? Did not the world change to accommodate HIM rather than him moderating or watering-down his philosophy in order to accept "things as they were"? Did that make his philosophy, "Be ye perfect" difficult to respect or relate to? Perform the same mental exercise with other revolutionaries such as Ghandi, MLK, Bhudda, and so on. Now perhaps you'll get the point. True revolutionaries - once they achieve a level of enlightenment - do not require 'changing and growing' when it comes to their core philosophies. Those concepts are fully mature, and it is OTHER people that have to learn to accept them.Quote:
But right now Naruto is facing down the purest form of 'evil' he's encountered to date. There is no negotiating with it. And we've already heard his take on the war. Several times. And I wouldn't say Naruto is sailing through it without worry. He's taken quite a shellacking in this fight. It's the longest fight in the manga so far, going all the way back to chapter 564. We're at 47 chapters so far (with intermissions) and they are still probably another 10+ chapters away from a conclusion - assuming they don't cut away to Captain Emo and his troupe of doofuses.Quote:
There's a difference between 'sailing through' and simply not questioning the fact that he is in the right fight at the right time. What would be the point in naruto questioning himself against Obito/Madara now? Such a pointless detour into self-doubt would stick out like a sore thumb, and would be bad writing on several levels. That time has passed.
Last edited by Invader; December 03, 2012 at 04:57 PM.
Oh and KYUUBI another obstacle he was able to overcome and inspire Kurama with his message.
And let's remember that Jiraiya was a lot like Naruto when he was a kid, as seen by his flashback after Hiruzen's death. Jiraiya grew up to be an awesome character, so Naruto still has hope. IF Kishi lets Naruto grow up to be wise and badass.
If he/they knows that naruto is the son of minato and student of jiraiya then I don't see any problem.
And naruto would going to use his almighty talk no jutsu, then everything would gonna be alright. The fuedal lord would going to bet on naruto like tsunade did.