Naruto 611 Discussion

[Hakuteiken]

With someone like Orochimaru, I doubt he'd have cared about Jiraiya. Though, Hiruzen probably knew about Jiraiya not wanting teh spot, so he was never mentioned. Someone probably mentioned Jiraiya was better gathering intels by going out the village and all. If you compare Jiraiya and Orochimaru side by side, most people will pick Orochimaru because he's a known genius. Plus, with someone like Minato, Jiraiya would have too much competition. Naruto however, is far too young, and despite his power, isn't mentally able to fulfill the role. Minato may have been the youngest, but he was mentally capable and ready, as proven. Kakashi was also smart, powerful, and well known (like Naruto will be), not to mention having Minato has his teacher, and Sakumo as his father.

Sadly, Kishi can't make Naruto a hokage in a feasible way if he keeps him as he is. Naruto needs to mature and get smarter, like he was meant to in Part I. <_<

Orochimaru would have been undoubtedly picked unanimously if only he didn't have a corrupted view of things. Minato was so young that even Hiruzen was probably worried a bit about his inexperience, but in the end, your assumption is the most likely one. Jiraiya never looked like he would want to settle down in the village as Hokage.

Let's hope Kishi realizes he can make Naruto quite similar to Jiraiya, yet unique. Naruto can be the less perverted, more loudmouthed version of Jiraiya. When Naruto got serious, like Jiraiya, he was epic. I hope Naruto learns a lot of jutsu that Jiraiya knew, especially since as Kyuubi's jinchuuriki and kage bunshin user, he'd be extremely dangerous.

Without being anywhere near as smart as Jiraiya was, and without all those jutsus, he's already insanely dangerous

Don't care if they fight, to be honest. I don't want to see Kyuubi vs. Susano'o. If they did have normal fight though, like in VotE, then I'd be eager to read it.

I would find it unlikely to happen. Limitations, I mean.

True, but Orochimaru probably has a good defense against the genjutsu. He apparently had tons of info about anything, he could have prepared a way to prevent getting hit with the genjutsu. Maybe this is one of the reasons why he was hellbent on Akatsuki's destruction.

Whenever I finally assume this is as far as Orochimaru's knowledge goes, he comes back at me with something else, so, I cannot really object.

Nagato needed Naruto alive so that much is irrelevant.

Why did he need Naruto alive? I forgot about that part

IMO people that believe "Faith is better than any plan" are people who are unwilling to accept the reality of the world. Naruto is one of these people. He is unwilling to accept that he is a shinobi, a trained killer. That his best friend is a murderous lunatic, and that as long as humans are humans, hatred will always exist because of things like jealousy, death, hardship etc.

And IMO, change of the scale Naruto and Nagato were talking of is indeed impossible, or at the very least, is not possible in any foreseeable future where humans act like normal humans.

Of course it is impossible. In a way, you can say what they want to achieve is exactly possible only with an infinite imposing power on people (Infinite Tsukuyomi), so, no difference from Obito in that regard.
But logical perception is irrelevant through the story.

[Delbi]

No, it's also because he can either relate to others or prove others wrong. By winning, he proved Neji wrong about the concept of destiny. By relating to Gaara, he showed that even Gaara could make bonds.

Only reason he defeated Neji was because of the Kyuubi though, and there lies the problem.

Only reason he could stand up to Nagato and preach to him was because of the Kyuubi.

The Kyuubi has essentially allowed Naruto to circumvent what would normally be impossible, and thus, he is allowed to prove others wrong by simply having something that lets him get around everything. That isn't being inspirational IMO, that is simply being stronger than someone. This is why what he is doing is unrealistic, because without the Kyuubi he'd be long dead and wouldn't be able to do anything.

IMO, it makes you wonder would Naruto be any different than some of his counter parts without the Kyuubi? Without it's power, he would have given into hatred and sadness long ago because he would have continued to fail in life.

[M3J]

Orochimaru would have been undoubtedly picked unanimously if only he didn't have a corrupted view of things. Minato was so young that even Hiruzen was probably worried a bit about his inexperience, but in the end, your assumption is the most likely one. Jiraiya never looked like he would want to settle down in the village as Hokage.

I'm not sure if youth was the factor with Minato. Maybe Orochimaru had more experience, that he was definitely better than Minato was probably why. The rankign could have been Orochimaru > Minato/Jiraiya > Jiraiya/Minato in terms of overall shinobi.

Without being anywhere near as smart as Jiraiya was, and without all those jutsus, he's already insanely dangerous

Unless you put the five-pronged seal on him like Orochimaru did. Then Naruto's not that dangerous, but with jutsu like Swamp of the Underworld and ability to transform others into toads, he can be pretty dangerous. Or, he can learn covert and mimic someone's shadow. That's far more dangerous as the info Naruto can get would be tremendous, especially mixed with his kage bunshin. If he remembers anything said. <_<

I would find it unlikely to happen. Limitations, I mean.

Naruto's known for asspulls out of nowhere. He'd probably survive Kyuubi's extraction, while Sasuke might choose not to use Susano'o out of pity.

Why did he need Naruto alive? I forgot about that part

Kyuubi.

[Delbi]

Why did he need Naruto alive? I forgot about that part

Because he needed the Kyuubi. If he killed Naruto the Kyuubi would disappear until it formed again possibly decades later delaying his whole plan. The only reason he destroyed Konoha was to bring Naruto out of hiding so he could capture him and extract and seal the beast inside him.

Of course it is impossible. In a way, you can say what they want to achieve is exactly possible only with an infinite imposing power on people (Infinite Tsukuyomi), so, no difference from Obito in that regard.
But logical perception is irrelevant through the story.

Logical perception is only irrelevant through this story because Kishi made it that way. Madara and Obito are both logical, hence why they are doing what they are doing. Problem is, they aren't moral.

l

[M3J]

Only reason he defeated Neji was because of the Kyuubi though, and there lies the problem.

Only reason he could stand up to Nagato and preach to him was because of the Kyuubi.

The Kyuubi has essentially allowed Naruto to circumvent what would normally be impossible, and thus, he is allowed to prove others wrong by simply having something that lets him get around everything. That isn't being inspirational IMO, that is simply being stronger than someone. This is why what he is doing is unrealistic, because without the Kyuubi he'd be long dead and wouldn't be able to do anything.

IMO, it makes you wonder would Naruto be any different than some of his counter parts without the Kyuubi? Without it's power, he would have given into hatred and sadness long ago because he would have continued to fail in life.

Not necessarily only because of the Kyuubi. Naruto also planned ahead and set up a trap to hit Neji. Kyuubi wouldn't have helped if Naruto was still out there like a sitting duck, especially since Neji could still fight. Naruto planned ahead that he could take out Neji at the right moment.

Kyuubi didn't make its appearance until Naruto was chained down, and only because of Hinata's "death." Naruto still beat Deva with his own power at the end. And against Nagato's mind control, he was in Sage Mode. Maybe that was enough, I guess? Kyuubi could have chosen to push back Nagato's chakra like it did with Fukasaku.

True, but he was able to win because he didn't give up. He didn't sipmly say "oh no, I can't use my chakra! Neji, you win. :<" He just told Kyuubi to lend him chakra. Instead of sayin "eff you Pa," he said "I won't give up, and I'll bring peace!" Even though he'd be dead without the Kyuubi, it's Naruto himself who continues to fight that makes him inspirational.

I doubt it, since Naruto wouldn't have any need to be a failure since it's implied he was only an idiot for attention. He'd have probably been smarter, and a better ninja, as well as not have a shitty childhood that'd make him give in to hatred and sadness.

[Delbi]

Not necessarily only because of the Kyuubi. Naruto also planned ahead and set up a trap to hit Neji. Kyuubi wouldn't have helped if Naruto was still out there like a sitting duck, especially since Neji could still fight. Naruto planned ahead that he could take out Neji at the right moment.

Kyuubi didn't make its appearance until Naruto was chained down, and only because of Hinata's "death." Naruto still beat Deva with his own power at the end. And against Nagato's mind control, he was in Sage Mode. Maybe that was enough, I guess? Kyuubi could have chosen to push back Nagato's chakra like it did with Fukasaku.

True, but he was able to win because he didn't give up. He didn't sipmly say "oh no, I can't use my chakra! Neji, you win. :<" He just told Kyuubi to lend him chakra. Instead of sayin "eff you Pa," he said "I won't give up, and I'll bring peace!" Even though he'd be dead without the Kyuubi, it's Naruto himself who continues to fight that makes him inspirational.

I doubt it, since Naruto wouldn't have any need to be a failure since it's implied he was only an idiot for attention. He'd have probably been smarter, and a better ninja, as well as not have a shitty childhood that'd make him give in to hatred and sadness.

Naruto's plan relied on him using chakra. He couldn't make clones with his chakra points sealed up, which only came unsealed with the Kyuubi's help. Also, the Kyuubi boosted his speed and strength to help him gain an advantage over Neji.

IMO, you are missing the point I am making. Naruto would never be able to continue to fight without the Kyuubi, he'd be long dead by now. His ability to say "I'm never going to give up, believe in me!" Is only possible because the Kyuubi keeps helping correct his mistakes. If people want to believe in someone, it should be the Kyuubi for allowing Naruto to live all these years.

And if Naruto lacked the Kyuubi he would have never had a chip on his shoulder. Would have been trained by his father how to kill, would have been a great student for Kakashi, and wouldn't of had half the impact on the world he has now.

[Hakuteiken]

I'm not sure if youth was the factor with Minato. Maybe Orochimaru had more experience, that he was definitely better than Minato was probably why. The rankign could have been Orochimaru > Minato/Jiraiya > Jiraiya/Minato in terms of overall shinobi.

I didn't mean he was stronger than Orochimaru, either.
During Orochimaru's invasion of Konoha, it's implied that only Minato could have stood up to him, so, it's highly probable he was still well behind in terms of skill when he was appointed as Hokage.

Unless you put the five-pronged seal on him like Orochimaru did. Then Naruto's not that dangerous, but with jutsu like Swamp of the Underworld and ability to transform others into toads, he can be pretty dangerous. Or, he can learn covert and mimic someone's shadow. That's far more dangerous as the info Naruto can get would be tremendous, especially mixed with his kage bunshin. If he remembers anything said. <_<

Then again, aside from Orochimaru and Kabuto, it looks as if the Narutoverse will run out of villains after this battle, so, those extreme powers may end up being only a bonus

Naruto's known for asspulls out of nowhere. He'd probably survive Kyuubi's extraction, while Sasuke might choose not to use Susano'o out of pity.

Naruto surviving the extraction is more likely. Let's assume someone has secretly copied Chiyo's technique of reviving a person with his own life force. Like Gaara, Naruto then can survive the process and get reincarnated.
Sasuke not using Susano'o is what I find unlikely. Unless he has a limited chakra to go with, of course.

Kyuubi.

I thought the Two-Tails Jinchuuriki was killed by Hidan, and not by the extraction.
My bad, though. The Bijuu would have roamed around on its own, then.
No, it wouldn't. Raikage mentioned of this while threating to kill Naruto to stop Kyuubi from getting extracted. Remember it now

---------- Post added at 01:45 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:43 AM ----------

Because he needed the Kyuubi. If he killed Naruto the Kyuubi would disappear until it formed again possibly decades later delaying his whole plan. The only reason he destroyed Konoha was to bring Naruto out of hiding so he could capture him and extract and seal the beast inside him.

Oh, I got it now. So, it was like that

Logical perception is only irrelevant through this story because Kishi made it that way. Madara and Obito are both logical, hence why they are doing what they are doing. Problem is, they aren't moral.

Desire for power and giving up in faith is hardly moral, agreed.

[Delbi]

Desire for power and giving up in faith is hardly moral, agreed.

No, desire for power and giving up in faith isn't immoral, hardly so.

What you desire that power for however, can indeed be immoral. In Madara and Obito's case, the idea of taking away free will from every human being on the planet is indeed immoral.

Losing faith in the wold, and in people doesn't make you immoral, it on one end makes you highly logical (although losing all faith in the human race certainly takes your logic into question) or highly defeatist in nature.

[marshall313]

Nagato's original self failed. That's the problem. Naruto is nothing more than Nagato 2.0 in that regard, so why would he assume he could succeed where Nagato failed? And being evil to begin with is irrelevant. No one is originally good or evil.

And Nagato isn't simply a murderer. He is a mass murdering terrorist with plans for world domination who was very likely insane to some degree. It is one thing for a normal person to commit murderer and feel bad about it, it is another thing for someone like Nagato to do the same. If you can't see how that is unrealistic then there is no point in continuing this conversation.

Nagato failed? Maybe not maybe yes. His role was suppose to be a savior and the one who could bring peace to the ninja world. If he'll going to used the bijuu's power to create a powerful jutsu that can annihilate an entire country, then maybe he can bring peace to the ninja world with that kind of act. The great toad's prediction never shown anything on the savior save/bring peace to the ninja world by uniting with talk no jutsu. So it could be by uniting like naruto's idea or it could be murdering or by fear like nagato's idea. The point is, they can bring peace to the ninja world. So I never considered nagato as a failure as a savior. His idea maybe foolish but still he was hoping for peace.

Nagato maybe a mass murdering terrorist, but you can't deny that he's still a human. He may be change his heart to hatred but still his heart knows how to loved or cared to his comrades/countrymen. Nagato was being manipulated by obito, his way of thinking about peace and love was change to peace and hatred/fear.
Nagato was suppose to be a good child. So if naruto change him to his own old self, then it's realistic. If he sacrificed his life because he believed in naruto, then maybe he remembered his old self, his idea, his belief, his mission and his goal to naruto.

Obito may successfully manipulated nagato, but maybe, somewhere in nagato's heart is still resisting or can't accept obito's goal or his doing. That's maybe the reason why he was easily influenced by naruto. Maybe nagato's heart isn't entirely full of hatred/evil.

[Hakuteiken]

No, desire for power and giving up in faith isn't immoral, hardly so.

What you desire that power for however, can indeed be immoral. In Madara and Obito's case, the idea of taking away free will from every human being on the planet is indeed immoral.

Losing faith in the wold, and in people doesn't make you immoral, it on one end makes you highly logical (although losing all faith in the human race certainly takes your logic into question) or highly defeatist in nature.

Taking away free will from every human being is the natural byproduct of that desire, in my opinion. You never desire more than enough power for anything other than your own interests. In the very extreme case, you want to rule over the world.

No, I'm not talking about giving up believing in other people or the world. What I refer to as immoral is giving up believing in yourself.
Just like it was the case with Nagato, and now it is, with Obito. Madara gets a pass from me in that sense.

---------- Post added at 02:05 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:01 AM ----------

Nagato failed? Maybe not maybe yes. His role was suppose to be a savior and the one who could bring peace to the ninja world. If he'll going to used the bijuu's power to create a powerful jutsu that can annihilate an entire country, then maybe he can bring peace to the ninja world with that kind of act. The great toad's prediction never shown anything on the savior save/bring peace to the ninja world by uniting with talk no jutsu. So it could be by uniting like naruto's idea or it could be murdering or by fear like nagato's idea. The point is, they can bring peace to the ninja world. So I never considered nagato as a failure as a savior. His idea maybe foolish but still he was hoping for peace.

Nagato maybe a mass murdering terrorist, but you can't deny that he's still a human. He may be change his heart to hatred but still his heart knows how to loved or cared to his comrades/countrymen. Nagato was being manipulated by obito, his way of thinking about peace and love was change to peace and hatred/fear.
Nagato was suppose to be a good child. So if naruto change him to his own old self, then it's realistic. If he sacrificed his life because he believed in naruto, then maybe he remembered his old self, his idea, his belief, his mission and his goal to naruto.

Obito may successfully manipulated nagato, but maybe, somewhere in nagato's heart is still resisting or can't accept obito's goal or his doing. That's maybe the reason why he was easily influenced by naruto. Maybe nagato's heart isn't entirely full of hatred/evil.

He didn't fail. The Toad Sage noted that Jiraiya's two pupils together became the Children of Prophecy, so, it can't truly be considered a failure from that perspective. He failed to complete the task, if that's needed to be said.

[M3J]

I didn't mean he was stronger than Orochimaru, either.
During Orochimaru's invasion of Konoha, it's implied that only Minato could have stood up to him, so, it's highly probable he was still well behind in terms of skill when he was appointed as Hokage.

I know.

Could also be that Hiraishin and fuuinjutsu, as well as Kushina being the jinchuuriki, were the only reasons he became hokage while Hiraishin was the only reason he could stand up to Orochimaru.

Naruto surviving the extraction is more likely. Let's assume someone has secretly copied Chiyo's technique of reviving a person with his own life force. Like Gaara, Naruto then can survive the process and get reincarnated.
Sasuke not using Susano'o is what I find unlikely. Unless he has a limited chakra to go with, of course.

Never know, I hope something happens that takes Susano'o out of the equation. We don't need another DBZ.

I thought the Two-Tails Jinchuuriki was killed by Hidan, and not by the extraction.
My bad, though. The Bijuu would have roamed around on its own, then.
No, it wouldn't. Raikage mentioned of this while threating to kill Naruto to stop Kyuubi from getting extracted. Remember it now

Where was it said he was killed? If I recall, all jinchuuriki have just been knocked out.

No, raikage mentioned that killing Naruto would put off Tobi's plan for a while. Kyuubi would come back, but it'd take a while for it to be revived. Pain wanted the Kyuubi immediately.

---------- Post added at 03:10 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:05 AM ----------

Naruto plan relied on him using chakra. He couldn't make clones with his chakra points sealed up, which only came unsealed with the Kyuubi's help. Also, the Kyuubi boosted his speed and strength to help him gain an advantage over Neji.

He didn't need chakra to dig and jump and punch. But yeah, Kyuubi's boost was the reason why he was able to do what he did.

IMO, you are missing the point I am making. Naruto would never be able to continue to fight without the Kyuubi, he'd be long dead by now. His ability to say "I'm never going to give up, believe in me!" Is only possible because the Kyuubi keeps helping correct his mistakes. If people want to believe in someone, it should be the Kyuubi for allowing Naruto to live all these years.

No, I understand it well. I'm just saying that Naruto himself didn't give up when he could have.

And if Naruto lacked the Kyuubi he would have never had a chip on his shoulder. Would have been trained by his father how to kill, would have been a great student for Kakashi, and wouldn't of had half the impact on the world he has now.

Exactly. He'd have actually been much smarter, though I"m not sure if anywhere near Sasuke's level.

[Hakuteiken]

I know.

Could also be that Hiraishin and fuuinjutsu, as well as Kushina being the jinchuuriki, were the only reasons he became hokage while Hiraishin was the only reason he could stand up to Orochimaru.

That would hypothetically make a good fight now.

Never know, I hope something happens that takes Susano'o out of the equation. We don't need another DBZ.

Hope it doesn't evolve to Madara's Perfect Susano'o instead (=

Where was it said he was killed? If I recall, all jinchuuriki have just been knocked out.

It wasn't mentioned, but I thought she died, as she was shown after Hidan completed the ritual. Never thought Hidan could actually use that ability just for the purpose of knocking someone out (got too much into this personality perhaps? )

[marshall313]

Yes, maybe the entire action of talking is trash. Then again, when Naruto was pinned to the ground, Nagato should have killed him off instead of giving a god-length preach about pain and the cycle of hatred.
Nagato didn't believe in Naruto, nor in his answer. As you said, there is no such answer "I will keep looking for it". Jiraiya tried and failed. Nagato tried and failed. Naruto is no different. In the end, Nagato just recalled his own words to Jiraiya: "Faith is better than any plan".
An eternal peace is a concept existing within an utopia, so that, you can only "believe" in it. Nothing more.

Nagato believed in the ideals passed down to him and Naruto. He had no reason to personally believe in Naruto and the only reason I can see in questioning him with "How?" was this.
So, now then, why didn't he just embrace his ideals again when he encountered Jiraiya? The words taken from his book can make a change, but the man himself cannot?
I agree, it's not realistic.

---------- Post added at 01:05 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:02 AM ----------



Yes, it's not that I find Nagato to come back to his old self unrealistic.
What I find as unrealistic is Jiraiya's failure in triggering that change.

Though, from a certain standpoint, that entire talk was about Jiraiya, Nagato and finally, Naruto's shared ideals, so, I don't know.

Does naruto said that his answer is the same as jiraiya? He believed on jiraiya for saying''that the time would come that the people would understand each other''.

Maybe that's the way for peace to naruto. Forgiveness and love would heal the hatred of the ninja world, then maybe they would going to understand each other. What naruto did to nagato is he forgive him on what he done to jiraiya. Naruto wants to tell nagato that forgiveness is the key for peace, if the ninja knows how to forgive then the cycke of hatred will soon come to an end.

How can you expect nagato to embrace his ideals again when he encountered jiraiya if jiraiya himself never remind nagato to his old self?

Do you think nagato would change his heart if jiraiya would told him that his name was written in the last page of his first book?
Do you think nagato would embrace jiraiya if jiraiya told him that he'll going to find the peace like his old self?

No. The impact of naruto's opinion to nagato is different to jiraiya. Because naruto isn't just the momento of jiraiya, but rather, naruto is both momento of jiraiya and nagato.

[Uchiha_Blood]

I know. I wasn't trying to justify the jutsu on its own, really. It's a wicked procedure, no matter how you view it. About being a bad guy, though, I can't really say much. Hashirama certainly had that good guy aura built in through the manga, but Tobirama is a bit of a mystery. I can't call him as a good guy or bad guy.
He sure sacrificed his own life to save his platoon from a certain death, which is an honorable act, but as you said, it's more of a duty for a Hokage to do it.
It was very easy to suspect them. Their rejection in Madara's ideals doesn't necessarily make it concrete that they had no one with similar opinions, but it means they were rather reluctant to act at that point. And yes, they weren't really that innocent, as their ceased desire for power returned to life when they felt they were left without governing powers.
I don't know. It's difficult to blame just one side and call them the bad guys on this.
It's more like a rivalry. Like the Jedi versus the Sith. Throughout the series, we are steered into thinking of the Jedi as good guys, and the Sith, as the bad ones.
In Narutoverse, the Jedi are the Senju, ad the Sith are the Uchiha.

I know, but what is that bad in having your own sense of justice going on? When Naruto becomes a Hokage one day, his mentality and view of things shouldn't be any different than that of Hiruzen. He'd not be able to bring himself to kill his pupil although knowing how dangerous he will be (Orochimaru), he'd object the Uchiha massacre and he'd eventually die for his village.
Hiruzen was a bad Kage by the standards of unending battles, though. You're right.

Beautiful post

Regarding Naruto's mentality, I don't think he would be as weak-willed as Hiruzen:
Oro became evil because Hiruzen turned a blind eye ( if I recall right, he remembered the guy was evil since he was a child ), I can see Naruto trying to get to the kid since day one, not letting him roam free doing what he wants, but following him in his time of need.
I also don't see Naruto playing favourites like Hiruzen did, really

Orochimaru would have been undoubtedly picked unanimously if only he didn't have a corrupted view of things. Minato was so young that even Hiruzen was probably worried a bit about his inexperience, but in the end, your assumption is the most likely one. Jiraiya never looked like he would want to settle down in the village as Hokage.

Anko said clearly Orochimaru wouldn't dare try a thing if Yondaime was alive, this despite Oro having growth and accumulated power for 13 years.
There is a reason why Yondaime is always hailed as a one-of-a-kind genius

Only reason he defeated Neji was because of the Kyuubi though, and there lies the problem.

Only reason he could stand up to Nagato and preach to him was because of the Kyuubi.

The Kyuubi has essentially allowed Naruto to circumvent what would normally be impossible, and thus, he is allowed to prove others wrong by simply having something that lets him get around everything. That isn't being inspirational IMO, that is simply being stronger than someone. This is why what he is doing is unrealistic, because without the Kyuubi he'd be long dead and wouldn't be able to do anything.

IMO, it makes you wonder would Naruto be any different than some of his counter parts without the Kyuubi? Without it's power, he would have given into hatred and sadness long ago because he would have continued to fail in life.

This is the foundation of the manga, Naruto rising above the hate despite having the worst object of fear sealed into his gut, conquering the hate inside him as well as the one directed towards him, saying that Naruto would fail without the Kyuubi shows that one purposefully ignores what the manga is all about only to bash a character.
Expecially in part 1, where Kyuubi was Naruto's Gekkei Kenkai basically.

Also did we miss Naruto's growth the moment he received attention and love?
Do we have to compare Naruto's growth in half a year with everyone else, even without Kyuubi? The guy goofed around, alone, for 13 years, seeking attentions and doing pranks.
It also helps that he's not the brightest guy either

The problem with all of this is we are trying to put realistic expectations on Kishi's fantastical idea that what Naruto is doing can actually work. Once Nagato was turned with talk no jutsu book no jutsu mega combo, that was it, it was all over.

Naruto changing other people is one thing, specifically, Neji and Gaara because they were both children. In Neji's case, Naruto proved him wrong in a believable sense. In Gaara's case Naruto showed him he wasn't alone, and showed him that he knew his pain.

Nagato however was a man; and incredibly stupid and gullible man, but a man none the less. The fact Naruto was able to change his entire way of thinking in a matter of minutes goes to show how unrealistic the idea is that Naruto can change everyone. That to me, was the moment was the make or break moment of this entire manga, and since then Kishi hasn't turned back. Once this happened people should have stopped putting realistic expectations of Kishi giving a shit about making his manga realistic or even having making sense.

But saying that, I have to disagree with the idea that Naruto's way of thinking is wrong. It is simply misunderstood and articulated terribly because Naruto is an idiot and Kishi has been a poor writer for the past 5 years.

Case and point: Naruto is often too stupid to realize how hopeless a situation is (except when pinned to the ground by Pain): and thus, with the help of plot no jutsu, he always wins. <<<THIS is the problem. Naruto does not know true failure. Naruto losing Jiraiya happened when he was irrelevant to Jiraiya's fate. He was too weak to prevent it at the time. But that wouldn't have mattered, again if Kishi changed one thing. If he let Nagato actually die a villain, and not revive everyone. If that would have happened, Naruto's character would have grown into the character we all wished he could. He would realize that, yes, you can achieve great things through hard work, but sometimes those great things come at a price, sometimes, despite your best efforts, you can't win, and even when you do win, your win can be hollow and pointless.

^ We should sticky this one

I really want to point out something though on the issue ( not really pointed at the post above, but at the general idea ):
Naruto is a shounen, and Naruto is the main character. Shounen are always about the main overcoming obstacles and never failing when it matters most ( as Naruto had his fair share of failings ), and this will never change.
The guy saying that Naruto can't fail because of plot are, you know, a little too late, do you expect your shounen main character to fail and die? If so, you really chose the wrong manga.

Even in reality, do you believe in ones who are all bark and no bite, or guys who gets shit done?
Naruto gets shit done, he may do it in a retarded way ( Nagato's conversion was retarded ) but he does it nevertheless.
As for the ones who says he didn't grow, did ya miss Itachi's talk? Did you miss Itachi saying to Naruto to not shoulder everything by himself, but to let others help.
And this was the Naruto that understood pain and that overcame his inner hatred to master the Kyuubi. Narratively speaking, Naruto's growth should've been done, and yet here he was, receiving a life lesson by someone else, and abiding to that teaching to this moment.

Now he's facing impossible odds, Obito can be TnJ'ed, but Madara and Juubi likely can't.
We're about to see Naruto's answer to "how can he deal with those who can't be converted" in a short while, so sit tight and reserve judgement for when the fight is over.
But then again, I know many will continue to bash Naruto regardless, saying he's no good because he depended on others and all that.
Which is fine, really

[mattiaildivino]

At this point,I'd rather prefer kagami to be the one who knows everything,instead of obito.then,kagami should come with hawk into the battlefield,whereas obito must be owned in 10chapters