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View Poll Results: Is Yamamoto Weaker than the Royal Guards?

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Thread: Is Yamamoto Weaker than the Royal Guards?

  1. #211
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Delbi's Avatar
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    Re: Is Yamamoto Weaker than the Royal Guards?

    Quote Originally Posted by Firebird0ne View Post
    I guess we'll find out how well Ichigo can face down Ryuujin Jakka's power, seeing as how Bach will be wielding it, from now on!
    Thing is this Ichigo is different than the one that fought Aizen, but I'm assuming he will be able to.
    "The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

  2. #212
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member NoOneInParticular's Avatar
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    Re: Is Yamamoto Weaker than the Royal Guards?

    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi View Post
    What measures one's strength though? Aizen's power is useless in front of Yama because he could never touch him once Yama released Bankai. Aizen could not defeat him without sealing his powers because he could never get past the sheer destructive force of his Bankai.

    A Shinigami's power is that of their Bankai as much as it is their normal abilities. Yama's Bankai is the strongest we have seen and it's not even close. There is a reason he told Hisagi he would kill all the Quincies when they invaded, because it's something he is capable of.

    It should be noted that Aizen's power only truly became too much for the Gotei 13 once he had the Hōgyoku in him. His powers as a Shinigami were not enough for him to fight all of the Gotei 13 at once, that is absurd. He never even faced all the upper tier captains at one time, and even in the last fight, hardly anyone had their Bankai released.

    Ichigo for intents and purposes isn't a Shinigami.

    So to me, there is no debate that Yama is the strongest Shinigami ever. He didn't have to use something like the Hōgyoku to achieve massive results, nor is he a super hybrid like Ichigo.
    Well, what I mean by strength in this instance is anything beyond Zan abilities. So reiatsu, physical strength, speed, agility, blah blah. In that regard I think Aizen was virtually equal with Yama. Well, Yama may have been physically stronger and Aizen faster, but aside from personal traits like that, I reckon they were roughly the same. With all their powers taken into consideration, yes Yama is the more powerful. When I said Aizen and Ichigo surpassed him, I meant post-Hogyoku boost/Dangai training.

    So I guess what I mean is one (or all, but I think it's at more one) of the RG could be stronger than Yama not accounting Zanpakuto abilities. So they might have greater reiatsu, an entirely different type of Zan ability. I suppose the question is whether being stronger than Yama makes you any less susceptible to the destructive powers of Ryujin Jakka. In the case of insane powers like transcendent Ichigo, probably, in the case of a Shinigami who happens to be a bit stronger, I don't know.

  3. #213
    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity danzouismadara's Avatar
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    Re: Is Yamamoto Weaker than the Royal Guards?

    Quote Originally Posted by Firebird0ne View Post
    Just need to comment on a couple of points.

    First, no captains were forced to use their bankai. The four captains who lost their bankai did not use it because they had to. They employed it to draw out the enemy, to test how they were able to seal bankai. Unfortunately, it wasn't a seal, they stole the bankais.

    But here is Byakuya/Komamura/Hitsugaya's explanation...

    http://www.mangapanda.com/bleach/496/10

    Here is proof that at least Byakuya was capable of holding his own, for some amount of time, in shikai

    http://www.mangapanda.com/bleach/496/7

    He lost badly because he went into bankai and then was defeated with his own power. As Nodt did not use his own powers, and it is shown that Byakuya does overcome his 'fear' attack and is able to strike at him. However, As Nodt just then uses the stolen bankai to destroy Byakuya. I would argue that if Byakuya had stayed in shikai, he could have at least held his own against As Nodt, although he would probably have needed Renji's help too.

    Here is Byakuya breaking free of the 'fear' attack

    http://www.mangapanda.com/bleach/501/8
    and
    http://www.mangapanda.com/bleach/501/9
    and also
    http://www.mangapanda.com/bleach/501/15

    Point two is that Aizen might have been close to old man Yama in ability, but the fact that he went to the effort of modifying Wonderweiss, just to counter Ryuujin Jakka suggests that he wasn't close enough to think he could defeat him. In fact, he recognizes aloud that he might not be able to overcome Ryuujin Jakka here...

    http://www.mangapanda.com/94-47594-2...apter-393.html

    And Finally, Yamamoto wasn't forced to use his bankai to fight the Bach fake. He chose to use bankai before even being challenged. Add to that the fact that the Bach fake only fought defensively, and it becomes evident that had Yamamoto NOT gone bankai, he would not have worn himself down. But he was convinced he was fighting Bach and used his full arsenal. Sure, the Bach fake survived for a while, but his abilities were pushed to the brink and once the full bankai was released, the fake was trashed in one hit. That wasn't a weak Sternritter fighting at Yama-jii's level, it was purely defensive posturing.

    Thus, I am convinced that old man Yama certainly would have been able to take on one or two RG members and give them a really good fight.
    http://www.mangapanda.com/bleach/496/10

    Please, read what byakuya says. thank you for your cooperation. lol

    and here is another fine example!

    http://www.mangapanda.com/bleach/497/9
    Last edited by danzouismadara; July 16, 2013 at 04:25 PM.


    Can someone message me an anime that's similar to d grayman or claymore or deathnote?

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  4. #214
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Firebird0ne's Avatar
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    Re: Is Yamamoto Weaker than the Royal Guards?

    Quote Originally Posted by danzouismadara View Post
    http://www.mangapanda.com/bleach/496/10

    Please, read what byakuya says. thank you for your cooperation. lol

    and here is another fine example!

    http://www.mangapanda.com/bleach/497/9
    Please go back and read what I actually said before you start getting sarcastic. I said that the captains who went out first could have HELD THEIR OWN in shikai and BYAKUYA WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN TRASHED if he had stayed in shikai and not handed over his bankai in the 'test' that the first four captains did by 'sacrificing themselves. They did not go bankai because they were trying to win, then and there. They went bankai to test how the enemy sealed/stopped bankai. I NEVER SAID they could have stayed in shikai and decisively won. If you doubt what they were doing, then read this...

    http://www.mangapanda.com/bleach/497/9

    Did you actually read the part where Shunsui ADMITTED that 'someone had to be sacrificed' which is proof that the first four captains were risking themselves to learn their enemy's abilities.

    The point I made before, and I will say it again with perfect confidence is that the four captains, INCLUDING BYAKUYA, would not have been DEFEATED if they stayed in shikai, although neither would they have won. They would have drawn...as is proven by the fact that the other three captains HELD THEIR OWN AFTER HAVING BANKAI STOLEN and Byakuya didn't lose to the enemy's power, BUT TO HIS OWN BANKAI.

    There, was that more clear for you?

  5. #215
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Delbi's Avatar
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    Re: Is Yamamoto Weaker than the Royal Guards?

    Quote Originally Posted by NoOneInParticular View Post
    Well, what I mean by strength in this instance is anything beyond Zan abilities. So reiatsu, physical strength, speed, agility, blah blah. In that regard I think Aizen was virtually equal with Yama. Well, Yama may have been physically stronger and Aizen faster, but aside from personal traits like that, I reckon they were roughly the same. With all their powers taken into consideration, yes Yama is the more powerful. When I said Aizen and Ichigo surpassed him, I meant post-Hogyoku boost/Dangai training.

    So I guess what I mean is one (or all, but I think it's at more one) of the RG could be stronger than Yama not accounting Zanpakuto abilities. So they might have greater reiatsu, an entirely different type of Zan ability. I suppose the question is whether being stronger than Yama makes you any less susceptible to the destructive powers of Ryujin Jakka. In the case of insane powers like transcendent Ichigo, probably, in the case of a Shinigami who happens to be a bit stronger, I don't know.
    Ok I get what you are saying, but I still don't think that matters. Yoruichi is probably faster than Yama, Kenpachi stronger, Aizen smarter, etc etc. But none of them were overall stronger than him. You can't discount his Zanpakuto and Bankai as that is part of his power. Them being stronger than him without his Zanpakuto is irrelevant, because up until his death he always had it. Meaning unless you could steal or seal his Zan, you could not defeat him.

    And he is right that no Shinigami has been born who was stronger than him. Aizen ceased being a Shinigami, and Ichigo isn't one.

    As for how the Royal Guards are stronger than the entirety of the Gotei 13, I don't think it has anything to do with their natural abilities or Bankai's and what have you. I honestly think they were altered by the Soul King to have some kind of collective be all end all power than can obliterate everything. Because frankly, some of them aren't that old seeing as how they know current Gotei 13 members, meaning they aren't stronger than Yama, and none of the rest of them seem older than Yama. I also fail to see how without making even this manga absurd, all 5 of them could be around Yama's strength.
    "The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

  6. #216
    Banned 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
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    Re: Is Yamamoto Weaker than the Royal Guards?

    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi View Post
    And he is right that no Shinigami has been born who was stronger than him. Aizen ceased being a Shinigami, and Ichigo isn't one.
    Aizen ceased being a Shinigami after their fight. He was still good old SHINIGAMI Aizen when they fought. And Old man sacrificed his arm to bruise him. The biggest FAIL in this manga. Ittou Katso, I'll sacrifice my arm to deal MINIMAL damage!

  7. #217
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Hakuteiken's Avatar
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    Re: Is Yamamoto Weaker than the Royal Guards?

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Aizen ceased being a Shinigami after their fight. He was still good old SHINIGAMI Aizen when they fought. And Old man sacrificed his arm to bruise him. The biggest FAIL in this manga. Ittou Katso, I'll sacrifice my arm to deal MINIMAL damage!
    Clearly, Aizen escaped from the center of that Hadou's explosion. Besides, that was after he had to endure his own Shikai power to save all his subordinates and the entire FKT from turning to ashes. That Hadou was a final act to try and do something with his remaining power, nothing else. Had Aizen had the power to take him on at his full power, he'd simply do so.
    Aizen was a logical man, so, he chose the best path for himself, weakening Captain-Commander's hand by using Wonderweiss. He would definitely not bother to develop that ability specially for someone weaker than himself, so, yeah, Aizen was still not at Captain-Commander's level of power, or destructive force, to say the least.
    Thus, "There hasn't been a Shinigami stronger than me born in the last thousand years" should still be considered as a fact.

    Well, considering this within the thread's topic of debate, some of Royal Guards may or may not be older than a thousand years old, so, that's not a bounding argument at all. And even if they are older, that doesn't necessarily mean the people who have been stronger than Captain-Commander were the Royal Guards.

  8. #218
    Banned 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
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    Re: Is Yamamoto Weaker than the Royal Guards?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    Clearly, Aizen escaped from the center of that Hadou's explosion. Besides, that was after he had to endure his own Shikai power to save all his subordinates and the entire FKT from turning to ashes. That Hadou was a final act to try and do something with his remaining power, nothing else. Had Aizen had the power to take him on at his full power, he'd simply do so.
    Aizen was a logical man, so, he chose the best path for himself, weakening Captain-Commander's hand by using Wonderweiss. He would definitely not bother to develop that ability specially for someone weaker than himself, so, yeah, Aizen was still not at Captain-Commander's level of power, or destructive force, to say the least.
    Thus, "There hasn't been a Shinigami stronger than me born in the last thousand years" should still be considered as a fact.

    Well, considering this within the thread's topic of debate, some of Royal Guards may or may not be older than a thousand years old, so, that's not a bounding argument at all. And even if they are older, that doesn't necessarily mean the people who have been stronger than Captain-Commander were the Royal Guards.
    Yes, he was exhausted, but that's why he used sacrificial Kido. And he lost his arm, and that's why he died so miserably. It was stupid. The only explanation was he wanted to scare Aizen so he wouldn't kill him.

    About Aizen and Yamaji's power. As I said, Aizen needed Arrancars (that he considered stronger than captains) to invade RG. Of course he'd handicap Yamaji. Old man could oneshot his entire army as his last stand.

  9. #219
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Delbi's Avatar
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    Re: Is Yamamoto Weaker than the Royal Guards?

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Aizen ceased being a Shinigami after their fight. He was still good old SHINIGAMI Aizen when they fought. And Old man sacrificed his arm to bruise him. The biggest FAIL in this manga. Ittou Katso, I'll sacrifice my arm to deal MINIMAL damage!
    He was doing all he could to protect Soul Society. His Zanpakuto was sealed, so he used a Kido. He wasn't counting on Ichigo coming in and saving the day, so he will willing to sacrifice his body to kill Aizen.

    And sorry to burst your bubble, but Aizen wasn't just a Shinigami there.

    He had already fused with the Hougyoku at this point.
    "The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

  10. #220
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member jimtors's Avatar
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    Re: Is Yamamoto Weaker than the Royal Guards?

    I think Yamamoto is stronger than the RG's on a 1 on 1 fight.. Until proven otherwise..... ^__^

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    Re: Is Yamamoto Weaker than the Royal Guards?

    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi View Post
    He was doing all he could to protect Soul Society. His Zanpakuto was sealed, so he used a Kido. He wasn't counting on Ichigo coming in and saving the day, so he will willing to sacrifice his body to kill Aizen.

    And sorry to burst your bubble, but Aizen wasn't just a Shinigami there.
    Yup, and on the next page it explains, that the only thing Hogyoku did was healing his wound, as it wanted to protect it's master.

    Fusing (or subjugation, as Aizen prefers) happened after Isshin made Aizen run for his money. That's when all boost started. Before that Isshin could handle him pretty easily. Too bad Aizen had regeneration. The only thing Hogyoku couldn't regenerate was his fatigue. Who knows if Ichigo was needed if not for that.

  12. #222
    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity danzouismadara's Avatar
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    Re: Is Yamamoto Weaker than the Royal Guards?

    Quote Originally Posted by jimtors View Post
    I think Yamamoto is stronger than the RG's on a 1 on 1 fight.. Until proven otherwise..... ^__^
    What part of 5 royal guards being stronger then the whole gotei 13 combinded don't you understand? do the math? At least 1 royal guard not being stronger then yamamoto would just completely conflict with basic math.


    Can someone message me an anime that's similar to d grayman or claymore or deathnote?

    Ive seen Deathnote, deadman wonderland, fairytale, shigurui, ao no exorcist, beelzebub, samurai champloo, code geass, devil may cry, Hakuouki, monster, blood plus, gantz. Basically, something with demons and gore.

  13. #223
    MangaHelper 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member zimbardo's Avatar
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    Re: Is Yamamoto Weaker than the Royal Guards?

    Quote Originally Posted by danzouismadara View Post
    What part of 5 royal guards being stronger then the whole gotei 13 combinded don't you understand? do the math? At least 1 royal guard not being stronger then yamamoto would just completely conflict with basic math.
    Not really - as we have no real way to quantify their power numerically.
    If we did, - and this is not accurate at all, but just for the sake of it - and we came up with something like
    average numerical strength of G13 captains (already misleading but still) - 10 (to keep the maths easy)
    average numerical strength of G13 vice captains (as above) - 1 (again, for easiness sake)
    This equals 120 + 13 (assuming that a new VC had been chosen for Yamamoto) - or 133
    Now let's assume that the royal guards were equal to 40 each - 40 * 5 = 200
    Yamamoto could still be a 66 and that 'maths', as ridiculous as it is to do such maths, would still work (199 to 200 respectively).

    Now I do not think that Yamamoto was 'that' much stronger than all the Royal Guards, but still, there is no reason why he couldn't be stronger than them individually and the statement still hold.

    As for the question of if he is weaker than the royal guards (combined) or not - yes, I believe he probably is...

    HOWEVER

    Until other bankais have been seen, Ryuujinjakka makes Yamamoto pretty much untouchable in most/all fights (if not stolen that is)...
    Last edited by zimbardo; July 18, 2013 at 10:58 AM.
    Infinite RAGE!

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  15. #224
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member jimtors's Avatar
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    Re: Is Yamamoto Weaker than the Royal Guards?

    Quote Originally Posted by danzouismadara View Post
    What part of 5 royal guards being stronger then the whole gotei 13 combinded don't you understand? do the math? At least 1 royal guard not being stronger then yamamoto would just completely conflict with basic math.
    Math? are you serious?what you said can't be a proof..

    Here look at this, just for math's sake...

    Yamamoto - 10
    RG's - 45 ( 9 for each)

    the rest of GOTEI 13 is 30... which means there's 40 including yama.. but RG has 45 which makes them stronger thant gotei 13 all together.. But individually they lose to Yama since they are only 9..


    I made you math that can make the RG's stronger than GOtei 13.. just to make the statement of Shunsui true.. but still can't prove that Yama is weaker.. i still believe he is stronger until further evidences.

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  17. #225
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    Re: Is Yamamoto Weaker than the Royal Guards?

    Ya guys don't get it Yamoto created the soul society and every time you see him appear you always see how powerful he is. Don't you also think if that dude with tha yakuza hairstyle know Unohana which is one of the oldest of the member in the soul society and taught her how to heal. If you add it up he could be one of the first generation Gotei 13 and so might the other member of the royal guard they never said that the first generation is gone. Am making suggestion but i think the yakuza dude is probally a captain of the second division cause they gave him the nick name lightning flash well that my opinion.

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