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@Jorge ^NO! IT'S NOT LOGICAL TO THINK THAT WAY
Yes, he out-sped or out-performed Kenichi in this chapter. However, that may not be as impressive as a feat you think it is. Kenichi has never been shown to be a quick opponent like Miu or Rimi for example. Looking back several of Kenichi's past opponents (Kano, Koukin, Tanaka etc.) have out-sped him in battle propelling him to RS in order to predict and follow their fast movements. Take in consideration that Kenichi was taught RS in order to defend himself against vastly quicker/superior opponents. Kenichi is not even using RS right now, but is he still able to dodge every single one of Berserker's attacks with a mere regular seikuken even though he is barely able to counterattack. In conclusion, Berserker must be not that fast if Kenichi is still using seikuken. Kenichi has displayed nothing short but ordinary speed throughout the story thus far, so Berserker out-speeding/surprising him early in this chapter was not all that impressive because Kenichi is slow or has modest speed in general, and Berserker doesn't seem to be very fast because Kenichi is not using RS right now.
Last edited by BASED Shinigami; November 24, 2012 at 02:10 PM.
Well, Kenichi actually never uses his real power. He only used it once, when he got unconcious against Kano Shou. And I agree, when he actually tried something close to his full power against Miu in her Bulu Mode, he couldn't do much, but we should take in consideration that Miu had a great training under Jenazaad. And we should also consider that she was brainwashed and seems to get training under some sort of hypnosis, so it's obvious that she learned way faster under such a method, than she or Kenichi learn under normal sircumstances.
I also can't agree that the actual differense in talent between Miu and Kenichi is big. You should take in consideration that just a bit more than a year before, Kenichi was weaker than a weak student, while Miu was a monster in her own right, but now Kenichi managed to take down tons of strong opponents and became quite a good sparring partner to Miu now. Even though she still wins. Kenichi's growth rate is the biggest in this manga and thus it's obvious that he is the most talented on. Maybe exept for Berserker.
Well, I can't see how it isn't logical.
Before this Arc hardly anyone thought of a Berserker as an actual match to Kenichi, but now we see that he managed to just outspeed Kenichi way more than Koukin (we can't compare Berserker with Tanaka, because for now Tanaka is just in another league, because he is stated by Elder to be actually quite close to Master, while Kenichi, Miu and Renka barely entered Expert class). I can't see how speed isn't a fit? And also Kenichi couldn't even counterattack properly in this fight for now. Of course I agree and I stated myself that Kenichi hasn't gone all-out yet as he hadn't used his Ryusui Seikuken yet, but well, Berserker is obviously quite far as well from being serious. The guy didn't even get his hands out of his pockets. And we should remember that he has his Berserker Mode, when his Dou Ki releases and he has a damn increase in his speed, durability and raw power.
Well, I don't understand why do you think that Berserker's speed is low?
Look at the pages above. When Berserker showed himself he stood in quite a distanse from Kenichi and then in just a mere second he was able to get just face-to-face with Kenichi and got back. And it was in just a second or a bit more. So how come it isn't an impressive speed?
Also Kenichi isn't slow in terms of actual speed. He is slower than Miu or Renka, but their fighting styles are based on actual speed. Apart from them he was actually shown one of the fastest up till now. It was shown as well, when he interfered with Lugh and Takeda. He managed to cover quite a distance in a mere second and stopped both of their attacks.
About Ryusui Seikuken... Well, I believe he will try it in the next chapter. If the chapter won't be focused on another fight.
How is he not not over hyped this bastard (I say that with all due respect) has done nothing but beat up on disciple class fighters or lower the whole series. People think that a top class fighter, he is going to get destroyed by Kensei or one of the Ryouranpaku masters if they happen to beat Kensei first.
Kenichi is a slow starter but he always ends up using his true strength in fights. In the end he went all out against most of his yomi opponents. At least we have little reason to think he did not go all out against boris, than, koukin, radin and odin so far...Quote:
Miu was with junazad 3 weeks or so and she spent most of that time learning silat techniques, basically a she started from scratch. I don't think miu got stronger through that other than maybe some release of her dou ki, she just learned an entirely different fighting style.
All of the opponents kenichi has beat down would be just as weak as I say kenichi is compared to miu. The only opponent kenichi took down who would be an actual match for miu so far is kano and even that was because of kano's heart weakness which allowed kenichi to use the full extent of ryusui seikuken on him. Other than that kenichi is not skilled or perhaps his heart is too weak to use ryusui seikuken against other yomi (all yomi but kano have dealt with ryusui seikuken with their own techniques or heart so far) and either version of miu. Kenichi might be able to fight evenly with miu if ryusui seikuken was an option but so far that is not even close to the case.
Its not a matter of agreeing, its an incontrovertible manga fact. Not a single manga event shows kenichi being even vaguely close to miu and not a single manga events shows anyone but rimi up to this point actually being a match for miu in a straight battle (although kano might have been there). The author actually even goes out of his way to show kenichi at every turn being fodder next to miu. It happens regularly in terms of speed, kenichi has never won a sparring match against miu (worst part is that that is a fact), she showed superiority to kenichi's combination of 5 martial arts with a style she learned in a week and it is a manga fact that kenichi cannot even defend from miu's attacks. Even if kenichi won't attack miu (which is not the case in sparring matches and the bulu incident) it doesn't make sense he is unable to defend as hard as he can against her at any time. If kenichi actually was a match for miu what we would see at least would be what we saw now against berserker, kenichi defending successfully like a boss. In turn what we saw was kenichi quivering in fear and having his measly life spared by the supremely and perhaps impossibly talented miu. It literally takes miu but a few attacks to actually kill kenichi these days. And that is taking in consideration miu has not fully awakened her dou ki and the elder held her training back. Once miu gets a hold of her dou ki the elder is likely to stop holding her training back which in turn will result in the gap between kenichi and miu widening.
Kenichi vs Berserker
Since his fight with Hermit, Berserker gained respect for hard work, powering up. I think that the fight can go either way.
I don't see Berserker as Kano's superior, remember that Kano always teched his way out of anything that is not a fight with the protag.
Renka vs Rachel
& Shiratorivs Chikage
Kisara has no right to even land a hit on Chikage. Nijima acknowledged Chikage as a threat (like with Koukin) and not because of being a girl.
Siegfried vs Hermit
Good match, I still think this goes for Hermit.
Freya vs Odin
Hahahahahahahahaha! Ah.... Sorry, Hahahahahaha! Odin hurry up and win.
Takeda vs Lugh
Whatever, I don't care.
Miu vs Rimi
Did Rimi, like, snapped? she acts like Apachai now. Miu should just release her dou ki and make it clear who is better, ending this pointless fight.
Where are the valkyries and other members from Shinpaku?
Berserker only had his hands in his pockets because he felt it was the most efficient way to counter Kenichi's seikuken not because he was holding back, and his theory was proved correct considering his small seikuken was able to dominate Kenichi's own although he was still not able to deal any damage to his adversary during this chapter.
Even though I said I wasn't going to argue with you today you still found a way to force my hand
---------- Post added at 04:47 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:08 PM ----------
Last edited by BASED Shinigami; November 24, 2012 at 07:16 PM.
This was an ok chapter, cant say it was amazing because hardly anything happened, other than a few fast exchange in blows at the very star between Kenich and Berserk (again people overestimating someone based on nothing) we didnt even see most of the other match ups fight. All this discussion between who is stronger than who is completely pointless because there are no facts involved so it ends up being an argument on how you saw a particular fight or biased opinions in case you like a particular character.
You gotta take into account this manga aint the most perfect piece around either we got plot holes and plenty of plot devices, Akira beating Junazard and Kenichi defeating Kano Sho (who treated Miu in her enraged no holding back state like if he were fighting a kid) and then getting completely destroyed by Miu on a training right after the fight come to mind. The authors job at the end is to entertain the public, would anyone enjoin any one sided fight from the "good guys"? No you wouldnt, it needs to be thrilling so you can root for them. So regardless of power and even though it aint logical all fights will look at least a bit even for a while just to provide a good show, at the end the obvious winners will beat their opponents (Kenichi beating Berserk for example is a given so is Miu). But that wont necessary prove someone is particular stronger than the other, unless it is blatant obvious like Kenichi and Miu being ahead of majority of the Shinpaku Alliance.
^First of all, you're clearly not reading our posts or you didn't comprehend what was being argued. We're not arguing who's stronger here. There a general consensus among everyone that Kenichi is stronger because we have no reason to believe otherwise. No one ever said Berserker was stronger than Kenichi (there's nowhere near enough evidence to backup such a claim at the present moment). That's not being argued as the real issue here is how impressive was his performance against Kenichi in this chapter, so we're breaking down and analyzing each part of the fight thus far. That's the argument mate. Also, how is our argument pointless when we're using factual opinions to backup our arguments and solidify our stances in this debate?
---------- Post added at 11:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:32 PM ----------
Last edited by BASED Shinigami; November 24, 2012 at 11:07 PM.
Berserk got close to Kenichi at the start so what? It is being stated a million times he is a slow starter not to mention Berserk has the advantage he knows all about Kenichi and he dosent know anything about him. He broke Kenichis seikuken so what? Not like it hasent being done before, otherwise kenichi would have won all his fights with that alone.
Btw it aint that i dont think Berserk could be a strong opponent it is just that i dont think we have being given enough to judge either way, similar to how i was so against people hyping Lugh. No need to jump the gun, we gotta wait for more to start passing judgement.
---------- Post added November 25, 2012 at 12:04 AM ---------- Previous post was November 24, 2012 at 11:22 PM ----------
Well, you obviously see the fight differently from me and Jorge if you think there isn't much analyze. That's your opinion I fear, and I respect it even though I vehemently disagree with you on this matter. Also, some of the points you've made are the same ones I've argued in my posts about the fight, so I don't understand why you're reiterating information to me . As you see the wall long posts above this one; you can conclude me and Jorge believe there is much to be discussed about this chapter contrary to your belief, and I'm still arguing with him You can believe what you want to believe.
"Jump the gun" Tell that to Jorge If you've read my posts you'll know that I keep stressing there isn't much to go on because we haven't seen either fighter in battle much up to this point, so we have to wait for more evidence (more fighting) to make accurate assumptions about their power. I believe you have the wrong idea here.
Last edited by BASED Shinigami; November 25, 2012 at 02:01 AM.
Well, I agree that there is not that much to discuss, thus I believe we should wait a bit. Maybe several chapters. It also depends on how the author will handle the fight (if he will show a bit from every fight or one fight in a chapter).
My main point was that Kenichi is constantly progressing. He progresses in every fight and also between them during the training. So the current Kenichi would utterly destroy Kano Shou from DoD Arc.
I hope we won't argue that much after the next chapters)))
Well, I won't argue with you more about Kenichi going all-out. It might be a matter of impression, but due to the fact what was clearly shown during his fight against Kano Shou, when even Kano stated that Kenichi only released his true potential and power, when he was unconcious, when his weak heart wasn't holding back, so I can't see how he might be all-out at the end against every opponent he had so far...
Well, learning an actual new style will obviously make Miu considerably stronger. Especially since she was trained under some sort of hypnosis and it should make her progress faster than under the normal sicumstanses.
Well, I might agree that Kenichi is weaker than Miu as well as most of his opponents, but I can't agree that Kenichi is actually that far away. Most of his losses against Miu were obviously comical. And it was clearly explained why he can't use Ryusui Seikuken against her. It's because when he sees her heart and all the stuff, he fells in love even more and starts dreaming, so he looses even more than without using it. Also Miu is a girl and Kenichi can't seriously fight girls and Miu is the girl he loves on top of that.
Kenichi has been on the level of most of the people he has fought with the exception of kano sho. How would the other yomi deal with miu in that scenario? If kenichi has had similar strength, speed and stamina to most of his enemies and miu is significantly stronger than kenichi in any single one of those aspects, how would most of the yomi match up to miu? The issue is specially severe with speed as a > b > c applies in every single scenario without fail. If kenichi is able to speedblitz kenichi then miu is also precisely that much faster than anyone who is comparable to kenichi.
Well, kenichi's power when he is unconscious is an entirely different deal, that much I will agree to. However kenichi cannot use that strength willingly, kenichi going all out against someone does not imply he will actually do the stuff he did while unconscious. In that regard the point would be that kenichi has defeated boris, ethan, koukin, jihan and a few other disciples without going all out at all. Still, the maximum strength kenichi can actually use consciously is still significantly weaker than what miu at any given point has shown. If kenichi's heart is too weak to use all of his strength willingly then that simply adds to kenichi's overall comparative weakness for that matter. Still, kenichi would just get to "might" have a chance if he could actually use all of his strength taking in consideration just how good a fighting miu is (and even then miu is due her dou ki powerup).
This is precisely how much stronger miu is than kenichi and everyone who is kenichi's equal or match. No single manga fact points to this somehow not applying to kenichi's other peers. The author even makes a point of actually including actual explanations as to why a situation would maybe suggest kenichi is somehow close to miu even though he in fact does not even come close (like when she fought akira's disciple and the author included that bit about her never expecting to receive the particular sentimental pressure she received from that disciple).
This and everything before, is Kenichi NOT fighting seriously (just check a few previous pages) that's the Kenichi that usually fight against Miu. So he isn't serious against her at all, while in the page you gave me, she went all out on him. Now look at this : http://www.mangareader.net/337-23826...apter-320.html and this http://www.mangareader.net/337-23826...apter-320.html and this http://www.mangareader.net/337-23826...apter-320.html
This is Kenichi getting SERIOUS, not a single time in their sparing matches have Kenichi went like this against Miu. Even Akisame stated that Kenichi who is bad at getting serious just got NOW. So you can't assume she is that much stronger just because she defeated a not so serious Kenichi. In fact, him matching a eventually defeating Sho is alone enough to show that he is on her level when he get serious or even beyond. And so far Kenichi Never used his strongest attacks against Miu because he doesn't want to fight her seriously, while she just brutally beat him. I honestly don't think Miu strong enough to defeat Sho or Kokin and especially Kokin who has shown endurance feats that not even Kenichi strongest attacks (which defeated Sho and several other people stronger than Sho) could faze him, so how is Miu going to pull that off considering she doesn't have any finishing moves ? Until i see Miu actually outmatching Kenichi in Ryusei Seikuken state, i'm not gonna consider her that much stronger or even stronger at all now that i think about it.
Last edited by KingOfNight; November 25, 2012 at 11:31 PM.