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Translations: Gintama 507 (2)
^Just to interject she does have one finishing move however I doubt it is as strong as Korui nuki
As for the kenichi fighting miu... there is an actual chapter dedicated to the fact that kenichi has to fight miu seriously during their sparring sessions.
Unless kenichi was serious during his matches against her there wouldn't actually be a benefit to the sparring sessions. And kenichi has even sparred under the same principle against renka for that matter. We don't know how far kenichi has gotten during his sparring matches however as far as the manga has told us his actual record against her is 0 wins.
Sho is the only yomi so far who actually seems to be a match for miu (other than rimi however we have yet to see how their fight will turn out as rimi is the only one among the yomi who even has the speed to deal with miu). Other than that there is not a single manga instance or fact that even vaguely suggests miu would lose to koukin. The manga goes out of its way to outright show miu as the person kenichi has to surpass. And who says miu does not have finishing moves? As far as we have seen she simply has not needed any yet as not a single enemy she has had so far has been an actual match for her. We actually saw her using a few finishing techniques during the DoD tournament for that matter. We have entire chapters dedicated to the fact that kenichi not only has not yet caught up to miu but actually show the sheer difference between them in every regard. The fact that kenichi needs tekou against enemies that miu can defeat flawlessly without tekou is already suggestive enough as it is.
What good is ryusui seikuken if kenichi is not actually skilled enough to use it against her? That is kenichi's fault and all the more reason miu would hand him his ass on a silver platter. Kenichi has barely been able to use ryusui seikuken at all since the fight against sho... Even if kenichi wasn't flabbergasted at the sight of miu while in ryusui state there is no guarantee he would actually be able to read her moves. Ethan changed his breathing to deal with it and koukin badassed his way out of it by merit of the strength of his heart. Who is to say miu's heart is not strong enough for that to begin with?
At this point saying kenichi is in any way even close to miu is against every fact the manga has presented at any point. The manga goes out of its way to factually state miu is still significantly stronger than kenichi. The fact that kenichi could not even defend from bulu proves that easily. No actual fact actually supports the notion that kenichi is in any way close to miu in terms of martial arts. I just don't see how the notion can be in any way substantiated... Miu is kenichi's objective not only as a romantic interest but also as the wall to overcome in terms of martial arts. Miu is supremely powerful for her age and has had first class training since the day she was born. How does it make sense that a somehow "normal" kenichi whose masters had to remodel beyond recognition to actually surpass miu yet? Kenichi surpassing miu would not even make sense plotwise yet. Once kenichi actually overcomes the weakness of his heart and actually has the sheer skill to use RS against miu he might actually be her equal. Until then he will continue to be overwhelmingly weaker at every turn and specially more so once miu gets her dou ki powerup.
Why are you comparing Miu to Ethan and Kokin ? Does she know Yuga ? No. Does she have a strong heart ? No. So why are you assuming she can pull her way out of it ? If Sho who made short work out of Miu couldn't, why would she ? And by now Kenichi can use Ryusei Seikuken whenever he is serious and thats why he didn't use it against Miu (along with Muboyoshi and Korui Nuki). There is also not a single Manga fact that Miu can beat Kokin. Or that Sho is stronger than Kokin (In fact, there are several facts that shows Kokin to be stronger). Or a manga fact that Miu can defeat a serious Kenichi. And one last thing, your words don't make any sense. You say Sho is the only one able to match Miu but, problem is, he didn't match her, he defeated her and there is no discussion about that. And then you say that She is far above Kenichi who defeated Sho, what the hell is that supposed to mean ? I know that Sho is stronger than Kenichi but he still lost. Thats how things go in this manga and even Kokin pointed that Kenichi always beats people stronger than him but that's not gonna work on him because he is a crazy badass.Quote:
So what we have seen is, a serious Kenichi defeated someone who defeated Miu. That alone should put him in Miu's level.
And, the undeniable fact is, Kenichi never EVER EVER EVER fought Miu seriously. He never Korui Nuki'd her or Mobyushi'd her or used his strongest combos or Ryusei Seikuken against her (or even a normal Seikuken now that i think about, don't remember him using against her) He get distracted sometimes in their sparring matches. Honestly saying Miu is stronger than him just because she defeats him in a sparring match is like saying Sakura is stronger than Naruto because she always beats him.
Last edited by KingOfNight; November 26, 2012 at 02:30 AM.
I've always considered Miu to be not that stronger than Kenichi. Unfortunately, manga has made every possible chance and effort to hype Miu to no end, especially since Tidat arc.
Sparring can't be used as a norm for anything, because it's just that - sparring. It was clearly stated in Kenichi vs Tanaka what sparring was all about: http://www.mangareader.net/337-46943...apter-371.html
We've seen the final confrontation between Sakaki and Hongou. Could any of their previous 250 matches come even close in comparison? It's not a fight where you put your life on the line.
For sparring rules and considering all the thing Kenichi holds for Miu I believe that he is virtually unable to fight her even remotely seriously, much less go all out.
To summarize my position - Miu is at the moment stronger than Kenichi (maybe will always be), but weaker fighters can beat stronger and in a hypothetical situation Miu wouldn't get up after a full-powered Korui Nuki.
Well, in a hypothetical situation Miu would not get up after getting hit by a full-powered Korui Nuki. However, that's assuming she doesn't bother to counter the technique in the first place. Korui Nuki is a risky technique that leaves numerous opening around the body. I'm going to have to assume if Ethan and Koukin were both skilled enough to be able to counter Kenichi's supreme technique (Ethan broke Kenichi's arm when he initiated it & Koukin straight kicked him back while in the air to negate some of the damage being dealt to him) then Miu should be able to deal with Korui Nuki as well.
Now that I look back at Ethan's fight with Kenichi, I'm starting to think that Ethan might be a match for Miu. During the fight Ethan was arguably dominating Kenichi the entire time (unlike Koukin's second fight with Kenichi where they were practically fighting on even ground), and IMO would have won the battle if it wasn't for Korui Nuki. It was Kenichi's bailout technique that propelled him to rise to victory in the face of certain defeat. Yes, I'm certain Ethan is stronger than Kenichi, and might be a match for Miu.
I bet some of you want to call me crazy for saying that
---------- Post added at 07:46 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:42 AM ----------
We should probably go to the HANGOUT THREAD seeing as our discussion is not really related to the current chapter anymore
Last edited by BASED Shinigami; November 26, 2012 at 07:55 AM.
Its one thing that kenichi has a stronger ultimate technique and an entirely different one that miu does not have finishing moves. Still, we have seen miu use several furinji style techniques through the manga although for the most part she has used them during the DoD tournament and against rimi a while back to catch up to her speed. Kuroi nuki is quite a bit more powerful than myoboshi though, while miu having something as powerful as kuroi nuki is unlikely we have no manga facts to say her grandfather has not taught her a technique comparable in power to myoboshi. More so, the manga factually states miu has the sheer power to kill kenichi in 2 or 3 hits through combat alone with no techniques. Kenichi is even more resilient than koukin to begin with so why would koukin be all that different? That said, koukin did tank through myoboshi however he only survived kuroi nuki because he managed to significantly reduce its power.
Why would we think miu does not have a strong heart? I am not saying that it is a fact that she call pull out of RS, I am just saying it is a strong possibility. Miu has been trained and tempered into martial arts since she was a little girl, there is no reason for her heart to be weak. Sho never made short work of miu and he only actually fought her when she was in her berserker state though. Not to mention that even if RS works miu has her own alternative to it which kenichi actually went as far as thinking was comparable to RS (he thought for a second that miu had learned RS until he was corrected).
Koukin and sho were never shown at comparable points in time though. So even if koukin was stronger than sho was it does not prove that sho would be weaker than koukin at a comparable point in time. More so, there is also the fact that kenichi needed a level 3 ryusui seikuken to keep up against sho while he was able to keep up with kokin without RS at all. I would think the fact that kenichi needed such a hax technique to keep up with sho while he could manage kokin without it suggest that sho was still superior to kokin.
Kenichi was by no means stronger than sho in precisely the same way akira was not stronger than junazad. Through 99% of the fight it was kenichi who was getting his ass handed to him in that battle to begin with. I am not saying kenichi couldn't pull an akira if the plot required him to, just that miu is the objectively superior fighter in precisely the same way junazad was objectively superior to akira.
Except there is the fact that kenichi tried to use RS against miu. Twice. He tried once during a sparring match and he simply couldn't manage it and he tried it against bulu and he still couldn't manage it. Kenichi is ultimately not good enough to use RS against miu, its not an issue of willingness. I don't think kenichi would have any reservations of using his regular seikuken against miu in sparring sessions. its a bit of a defensive technique to begin with anyways.
Its not just the sparring matches, its everything. The manga makes a point of hyping miu at every turn, she is shown as the objectively superior fighter through all stages of the manga and kenichi constantly points out to the fact that he has in no way caught up to miu yet. I am simply not ignoring the actual hype miu receives in the manga, I am just taking it every bit as serious as it is said every time it comes.
You bring up a moot point.
It's not entirely fair to say Kenichi wasn't able to keep up with Kano without RS and was able to do so against Koukin. If you look at the beginning chapters of the Kano fight, you'll see Kenichi was In fact able to keep up with Kano just barely. I admit Kenichi was getting hit a lot, but he was able to dodge all the lethal hits when necessary without the use the RS meaning he was able to follow Kano's movements to a certain extent. It's only when he initiated RS it enabled him to the start completely dodging Kano techniques one after another most of time (he still got hit occasionally). Now just like the Kano fight Kenichi was able to dodge the majority of Koukin's attacks while using RS for a certain amount of time, but what happened when he stopped using RS? Kenichi started getting hit a lot more and he was taking more noticeable damage (evident by the fact he was bloody and bruised by the end of their masters fight) while avoiding lethal hits the exact same way he was doing against Kano early in their fight without the use of RS. Do you not see the similar pattern of Kenichi's performance against both opponents with and without the usage of RS? It's practically just the same! Simply put its not fair to say Kano is a more superior opponent than Koukin because of the RS notion you've made.
Last edited by BASED Shinigami; November 26, 2012 at 12:05 PM.
The whole time ? What does dodging attacks have to do with better fight ? He protected her several times, he made up the imperfection of her dodging skills. He was the one that did all the damage to him and her getting the idea was simply due to experience.Quote:
Why ? Because Kokin is serious thats why. In the page i gave you earlier a NOT serious Kenichi getting thrashed by Takeda and looking like he can't take hits anymore but, the moment he got serious he dominated him. And once more I'm not talking about Kenichi but YOMI. The theory of Miu easily defeating any Yomi member because she defeats Kenichi easily in a sparring match is absolute nonsense (no offence), because that would make Rimi (who i personally see as the weakest Yomi) ten time stronger than Kenichi, Kokin, Sho etc. Also the fact that i'm talking about Yomi vs Miu means an entirely different thing than Kenichi vs Yomi. Because nearly every Yomi member Kenichi fought was stronger than him, Sho (a lot stronger), Kokin (a lot stronger), Ethan (somewhat stronger) etc.Quote:
Kenichi won against those guys because he is Kenichi, thats not something Miu can do. If she was an enemy then he would have defeated her no doubt because he defeated Sho who is stronger than her. Even Kokin said so. Miu because she defeats a not serious Kenichi doesn't make her stronger than those guys otherwise she wouldn't be struggling against Rimi.
As for the rest of your post.
No but seriously, are you going to assume that Miu can do something just because the manga didn't say she couldn't ? Do you realize how missed up that is ? One does not simply do something because it was not said he can't.
Why would i think not ? Because her heart always wavers ? she is like the Killua of HSDK, stronger than Gon (Kenichi) but has a weaker heart.Quote:
We also have no manga facts that she has anything close to Mubyoshi. So just because nothing says she doesn't have one, doesn't mean we have to assume she does. It's the other way around.Quote:
You have to take in consideration that kenichi needed his RS at the third level to beat kano while against koukin he never got there. Kenichi with RS had an even fight with sei do gyo kano while kenichi without RS had an even match with koukin. Kokin never displayed the sheer superiority against kenichi that kano did, the fight against kano was by far less even. Koukin at no point during their match actually just kicked kenichi around like kano did, at no point was kenichi ever barely holding on to his life by barely avoiding life threatening attacks. The fight with koukin was nothing like the fight with kano, the similarities you point to are simply not there.
---------- Post added at 01:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:59 PM ----------
The very fight you show of kenichi vs takeda proves that kenichi can get serious when he wants to though. The point is not just kenichi losing to miu in a few sparring matches. The point is kenichi losing against miu in sparring matches every single time. The point is that miu did not even try during their sparring matches until the time of the DoD tournament and even after that. And who is to say wouldn't be that dangerous right now? We already saw her factually blitzing the entire shinpaku alliance and awaking her dou ki gave her a significant boost in strength, speed and power.
I never got the impression kokin and ethan were that much stronger than kenichi though. Both of them had fairly even matches with kenichi as far as we saw. The fights against them were nowhere near as one sided as they were against kano and kenichi won them without using the third level of RS. Kenichi did use kuroi nuki however as far as keeping up with them he was perfectly capable of doing it.
I didn't say that miu can do it because it hasn't been shown that she can't. I merely suggested that miu has been going at the martial arts thing for far longer than what kenichi has, has more experience fighting and has been trained and is being trained by the elder into the fuurinji fighting style. She is a seasoned martial artists by disciple standards, more than any of her peers.
As for her heart, when has it been shown it is weak? If anything the entire junazad arc suggests repeatedly that her heart is strong as hell. She had her memories erased and was drugged and brainwashed and still through sheer will she kept herself from killing even though she was actually aiming for it. It is because of the sheer strength of her heart that she was able to resist junazad's training and make a recovery from it (kenichi helped but still). Miu having a strong heart is a manga fact.
Even if her heart was weaker, wouldn't your last sentence confirm what I am saying about miu being the superior fighter? I am not denying kenichi could pull an akira against her (even though he technically failed at it when miu spared him 2 or 3 times as bulu), just that miu is the objectively superior fighter and the manga goes out of its way to hype her as such at every turn.
Guys I understand that you'd want to discuss this kind of stuff given the nature of the chapter, but it's not really relevant to the chapter itself. You should take it to the hangout thread, thanks.
^Ok so what? , Kenichi was surprised by his initial speed and was nearly killed, but after that he didn't let it happen again even while not wearing chain mail. That point is really invalid. You're completely glossing over the fact that it was the first time Kenichi had initiated RS, so he wasn't quite effective at using it initially even though he eventually won the fight. Also, Kenichi did get to level 3 against Koukin although the technique failed because of the strength of Koukin's heart, so he had no other choice but to find another way to beat him do you not realize that? The fight may have been less even, but Kenichi was far more prepared to fight Koukin than he was against Kano. He had fought two Yomi disciples, learned powerful new techniques most notably Korui Nuki, and started entering the lower levels of the expert class around the time he briefly fought with Tanaka. He gained tremendous fighting experience in this time frame, and became a lot stronger physically/mentally by the time he had his rematch with Koukin. There's no surprise at all he had a more even match with Koukin if you take those things into consideration.
---------- Post added at 01:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:44 PM ----------
Oh sorry just read your post. I will take it to the hang out thread.
As for the matchups. Either Lugh or Beserker are the strongest. Lugh stated that taked could "fight rimi, no Odin or even Beserker!" he said it like Beserker was the strongest dude Rimi could have powered up but i refuse to believe she just got stronger than everyone with one little mountain training sesh. Lugh seems like hes more experienced rather than powerful even shigure noticed it. So who knows i hope Takeda loses though so ken can fight him later.
Well, what lugh said was more about takeda's fighting style rather than his actual strength. Takeda is a fighter with strong limitations in comparison to his peers. His only means of attack are his fists. He has no locks, no throws, no kicks and no means to respond to any of lugh's techniques if they connect. A lock is exceptionally dangerous and if caught in one takeda is the worst equipped member in the shinpaku alliance. In turn the other yomi members would be more conventional fighters and would fight in a way which is not so much of a disadvantage to takeda.
501 is out on manga stream.
I so saw that happening with Ryuto and Freyas situation...
and while reading the last pages with miu...
Last edited by wizzard; November 30, 2012 at 01:19 PM.