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Thread: Naruto 612 Discussion

  1. #316
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    Re: Naruto 612 Discussion / 613 Predictions

    Fukasaku has already told us what happens to Sages with genjutsu and any other techniques. They become more proficient. Genjutsu requires the interruption of a ninja's chakra flow. Sages have not only stronger chakra but also better chakra control. This makes them more resistant to genjutsu. You wonder if Naruto lost sage mode but I interpret those moments as Naruto standing down, disarming himself as a gesture of peace. Any idea that he lost sage mode is completely contrary to the very benefits of sage mode.

    As to Itachi getting the upper hand on Kabuto: he's a frigging Uchiha.

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    Re: Naruto 612 Discussion / 613 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Ripcord View Post
    Fukasaku has already told us what happens to Sages with genjutsu and any other techniques. They become more proficient. Genjutsu requires the interruption of a ninja's chakra flow. Sages have not only stronger chakra but also better chakra control. This makes them more resistant to genjutsu. You wonder if Naruto lost sage mode but I interpret those moments as Naruto standing down, disarming himself as a gesture of peace. Any idea that he lost sage mode is completely contrary to the very benefits of sage mode.

    As to Itachi getting the upper hand on Kabuto: he's a frigging Uchiha.
    He used a genjutsu that by all intents and purposes is leagues beyond any other including Tsukiyomi. Hence the cost of an eye to use it. Besides this discussion is pointless, even if genjutsu was effective on naruto in sage mode he is now friends and partners with Kurama, who would simply break the genjutsu. Ala Bee and Hachaan vs. Sasuke.
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    Re: Naruto 612 Discussion / 613 Predictions

    sage mode.
    it was a filler. were a monster use a genjutsu and stun naruto cause he was trying to use sage mode. and in the filler i think gai or yamato say something about sage mode weakness been genjutsu. but i dont think this goes in the real story of the manga.

    it would make sense cause they always give naruto a weakness when it come to sasuke power.
    resengan=fire ball
    sage mode=genjutsu
    I must create a real village, until i demonstrate what a real kage is. I cant Die!

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    Re: Naruto 612 Discussion / 613 Predictions

    what a weird discussion. i don't think Sage Mode is weak against genjutsu. actually it's the opposite. even if it was weak, what would that mean? it's not like Sage Mode keeps Kyuubi out of equation. if Bee can break genjutsu with Hachibi, then Naruto and Kyuubi can as well, sage mode or not.

    and anime fillers are just that, fillers. and how fire ball is a weakness for Rasengan? i can't understand.
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    Re: Naruto 612 Discussion / 613 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    It makes creating rasengan faster, and enemies might not see rasengan coming. Or, using a clone leaves Naruto in a better situation to hit his enemies. I'm not totally sure, but Naruto stated that the problem stemmed from his inability to whack Kabuto due to how obvious a motion it was. And doesn't using a clone help Naruto be faster than him doing it on his own? Even by himself, it took him much longer to do rasengan compared to Jiraiya or Minato's nearly instant formation. The clone probably allows Naruto to focus on the fight, as we see him running or doing something while creating rasengan. if it was himself, he'd probably be standing there. Just a guess.

    Unexpected because no one would know or see him using a clone to create rasengan until it's actually doing it. Like I said though, all I'm doing is guessing, not saying it as fact.


    I still have no idea how it's imperfect, but that's irrelevant as the issue was actually hitting Kabuto with it, which he couldn't. The clone allowed him to create rasengan while holding Kabuto in place so he couldn't dodge it.

    I remember us having this discussion, adn you pointed out how his 'imperfect" rasengan looked different from his perfect one.
    It was imperfect as he was missing stage 3 of the training. To keep its power contained.

    Naruto learned said tech in 3 stages:

    The first step was learning how to burst a water balloon by spinning the water inside in multiple directions at once using only the user's chakra, which emphasises rotation.
    The second step was for the user to burst a rubber ball, and since rubber is thicker, and air is completely different from water, it forces the user to use denser chakra to break it. This step emphasises power.
    The third and final step was to combine both step one and two by spinning chakra inside a balloon without moving the balloon itself, emphasising stability of the sphere shape.

    With no 3'th steb and it showed here what it means:
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/155/9

    With the last stage:
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/155/10

    The end result from comparing the 2 above:
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/155/11

    The fact that he could not hit Kabuto with a rasengan just gave him the luck of figuring it out how to do it with a clone... Now if Kabuto would have been hit with a stage 2 Rasengan you can be damn sure he would get right back up like nothing happened (especialy with his healing). As you can see in the links above it did minor damage even to the tree.

    @ninjabot


    Quote Quote:
    He was losing it, evidenced by his eyes starting to change. Had he not suppressed his Kyuubi chakra, his Sage Mode would've ceased completely. Also, Nagato's chakra rods have been proven to only stagger one's chakra. Not overwhelm it. This is proven when Kakashi is stabbed by one while he has a Raikiri active. He was stabbed in the SAME SHOULDER of the arm using the Raikiri and yet, his Raikiri stayed active despite the chakra running through it.

    None of the instances you posted have anything to do with taking someone's chakra reserve, rearranging it in the way the Genjutsu caster sees fit, and then manipulating their brain.
    He was losing it? PROVE IT. He lost NOTHING after a combo of Kyuubi chakra, Nagato chakra infusion AND his feelings.

    Nagato sends chakra to the target trough said pipes, its even enough to move Kakashi a bit to the right (or left whatever it was) and miss Deva.

    Genjutsu does not take over someone's chakra reserve and it does not rearrangies it. How did you got to that conclusion is beyong me.
    Genjutsu works when a ninja extends their chakra flow through the cerebral nervous system of their opponent to control their mind, thereby affecting their five senses. It does end up messing your chakra somewhat because you are in a genjutsu and your mind is effected but in no way shape or fashion it ends up doing more crep then a combination of Kurama's chakra leeking into Naruto+Nagato sending powerfull chakra to mess up his own.

    Also yes Kakakashi could still Raikiri but so could Naruto when Itachi put him into a genjutsu(Rasengan for Naruto).

    Quote Quote:
    Not when he's holding it back thanks to asspull seal.
    He was not holding it back. His eyes started to change. That only happends when Kurama's chakra is mixing with his own. It was not a masive amounth of chakra but it was there. More then a genjutsu sends anyway.

    Quote Quote:
    No, proven by what happened with Kakashi. Nagato's rod control only works on either weaklings or corpses, lmao.
    Proven what? Nagato sends chakra to his target... Then you are comparing doing it to Kakashi from a distance to point blank range to Naruto. It was made CLEAR that what Naruto did there it was an INSANE FEAT. Stated so on panel. Konan could not belive her eyes that Naruto could rezist Nagato from that distance.

    Quote Quote:
    Tell you what: try your damnedest to prove that any of your above instances compare (power-wise) to being hit by a Tsukuyomi, Sharingan Genjutsu, paralysis Genjutsu of any class... and then I'll concede you have a point.
    And why would i do that? Its not relevant what is a more powerfull tech but what can send and mess up your chakra more badly. Even a little bit of chakra leeking after Orochimaru used that thing on Naruto's seal and he could not walk on water. Genjutsu effect is over the mind to put you into a ilusionary stated, it does not mess up your body in a physical sense. I don't even remember ANYWHERE in this manga anybody using a genjutsu and somebody be unable to use a jutsu because of it.

    Quote Quote:
    Oh, wow! You actually DO think all of these are more superior to the jutsu I just mentioned.
    I'm... I'm thoroughly surprised. No theatrics either. I'm genuinely dumbfounded at this realization.
    Heh. You are looking at this from a wrong point of view. Its irrelevant what is a more powerfull ability. Genjutsu does something and what i listed there does something else.

    Quote Quote:
    First off, you don't know how much chakra Kyuubi was trying to force through. Especially after Daddy came back and gave Naruto a brand spanking new powered up seal. Naruto's eyes change without even going up to 1 tail, or red chakra aura. Secondly, Nagato's black rod control is weaksauce when it comes to disrupting already active jutsu (proven with Kakashi's Raikiri like said).
    Whatever it was you can be damn sure its more then a genjutsu can send to you. Genjutsu has nothing to do with sending masive amounth of chakra to the target to take over it... A little bit of Kurama's chakra its already a lot of it.
    Again your Kakashi example is just wrong considering the distance Kakashi was from Nagato.

    Quote Quote:
    Not sure what the heck any of that has to do with having your chakra disrupted, altered, then shoved through your brain but... okay?
    What it has to do is with your last post, did you forget that you claimed he lost SM because he "loves" Iruka crep??

    Quote Quote:
    No... I think he lost SM because he lost his focus. Everyone here that actually reads the manga (this instance doens't even require reading... it requires looking at the picture is all, lol) remembers that Naruto doesn't "poof" out of Sage Mode. His eyes gradually turn back to normal. His eyeshadow disappears and frog eyes return to their original color and shape.
    Ha if you whant to bet i have a lot more people thinking its Naruto droping out of SM by choice then the other way around? Even on the same page you had somebody stating the same thing as me. Oh yes go ahead and give me that "your people" are better then the other ones.
    Naruto just droped out of SM as it was no need to keep it active and he probably had the idea that RM was better (and used it after that to). Once you create the chakra its there. Focus is needed when you are transforming said chakra and getting more of it. There is nothing to focus at once you are in SM... You seriously think Kabuto was focusing anything when he was in the genjutsu world? How the bloody hell would he even do that(read more on this below)?

    Quote Quote:
    See, I knew you were gonna get defensive about this. Not a single damn person even mentioned Sasuke. I said Genjutsu. Vs. Sage Mode. And you automatically deduced that it was an attack on Naruto somehow? Naruto isn't the only Sage in the manga. Hell, he ain't even the best.
    I am not getting defensive i am just remembering the discussion we had before and you used Sasuke and Juugo as example. I also used Naruto because he is a sage. We have limited number of sage and feats. Most come from Naruto. Also i completly disagree that Naruto is not the best. For one Kabuto needed to "steal" power to even get there... Remove Kabuto's other abilities and go SM vs SM and i would give Naruto the win easy. Kabuto would win over SM Naruto becaus he also has genjutsu, water mode and so on.

    Quote Quote:
    You make yet another gigantic oversight: Kabuto's Sage Mode doesn't follow the same rules as Naruto's Sage Mode. Kabuto doesn't need to keep mixing Natural Energy with his body, as it's naturally done (as it's done with Juugo) without his control. Kabuto is unconscious, but his body is handling the steady absorbtion of Natural Energy into his body that anyone else would have to maintain focus to use. And since he was already in SM before Izanami was cast... his genetics do the rest for him.
    My hypothesis is supported by not only the rules of how Sage Mode is activated and maintained, but by the rules of how Genjutsu works against opponents. As far as YOU are concerned, it's infallible. But it's okay. Kishimoto's gonna ignore it for you.
    And of course this would be wrong... Naruto himself is NOT constantly getting more SM energy man... He get's it once, balance it and then he is good to go... Kabuto even if he can get chakra energy because of Juugo (evidence he is not as good as Naruto) he still needs to balance it and create senjutsu chakra just like Naruto. Genjutsu would obviously disrupt Naruto trying to get more chakra energy if he get's a face full of genjutsu when he is getting chakra energy for that 1 second he needs but that is another story.

    Going by this last bit you aparently don't grasp even the fundamentals of SM. Juugo's ability only grants him the ability to pasively absorb NE but the balancing act and transformation into senjutsu chakra its done by focusing on it. Why do you think he had to train for it?
    He is no diferent then Naruto. Only diference is that Naruto needs to stop a second to get NE and then pop SM back up. Actualy not sure he can just absorb and transform NE into senjutsu chakra on the move considering he was focusing here:
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/579/4

    He is CLEARLY focusing. Its not something that can be done from inside a genjutsu. He even forms a handseals as he does it. Kabuto did not show the ability to get into SM on the move, he did not show the ability to enter it and create senjutsu chakra with no focusing first.

    In short Juugo has the ability to absorb NE from around himself (something like the oil) but he sure as hell does not have the ability to balance it and create senjutsu chakra automaticly.
    Last edited by xXan; December 09, 2012 at 04:37 AM.

  8. #321
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    Re: Naruto 612 Discussion / 613 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by llamapie View Post
    He used a genjutsu that by all intents and purposes is leagues beyond any other including Tsukiyomi. Hence the cost of an eye to use it. Besides this discussion is pointless, even if genjutsu was effective on naruto in sage mode he is now friends and partners with Kurama, who would simply break the genjutsu. Ala Bee and Hachaan vs. Sasuke.
    even after izanagi and later genjutsu, kabuto maintained his sage mode until orochimaru absorbed his self from him.

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  10. #322
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    Re: Naruto 612 Discussion / 613 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by darkprince0521 View Post
    what a weird discussion. i don't think Sage Mode is weak against genjutsu. actually it's the opposite. even if it was weak, what would that mean? it's not like Sage Mode keeps Kyuubi out of equation. if Bee can break genjutsu with Hachibi, then Naruto and Kyuubi can as well, sage mode or not.

    and anime fillers are just that, fillers. and how fire ball is a weakness for Rasengan? i can't understand.
    Quote Originally Posted by abyozuu View Post
    even after izanagi and later genjutsu, kabuto maintained his sage mode until orochimaru absorbed his self from him.
    Exactly! Please cease this whole genjutsu > sage mode nonsense..... It's really pointless
    I'm a bit confused how people are still able to think with Kurama that Naruto won't be able to fight off a genjutsu after knowing the hachibi helped out Bee from a genjutsu and adding that it's able to nullify his sage mode. I find it ridiculous to even have it as a topic of discussion


    Starting to sound like a bunch of that uchiha, or in this case sasuke too much.

    Fireball is a fire element while Rasengan is still a wind element.
    It's the element's weakness, fire > wind.
    Last edited by hollowdemon; December 09, 2012 at 06:48 AM.


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  11. #323
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    Re: Naruto 612 Discussion / 613 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by darkprince0521 View Post
    what a weird discussion. i don't think Sage Mode is weak against genjutsu. actually it's the opposite. even if it was weak, what would that mean? it's not like Sage Mode keeps Kyuubi out of equation. if Bee can break genjutsu with Hachibi, then Naruto and Kyuubi can as well, sage mode or not.

    and anime fillers are just that, fillers. and how fire ball is a weakness for Rasengan? i can't understand.
    Sasuke's fan is trying too hard to downplay naruto.

    Even if naruto would be caught to genjutsu, he can cancel that by absorbing natural energy.

    And even we assume that sage naruto would be caught by genjutsu, he can still cancel that by using the natural energy around.

    http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v46/c431/17.html

    He was already in sage mode and yet he's still absorbing the natural energy.

    It's clearly obvious that sage mode naruto has the ability to cancel sasuke's genjutsu.

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    Re: Naruto 612 Discussion / 613 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by hollowdemon View Post
    Fireball is a fire element while Rasengan is still a wind element.
    It's the element's weakness, fire > wind.
    Rasengan isn't wind element. Fūton: Rasengan is. but Rasengan is A - Ranked, Great Fireball is C - Ranked. Fūton: Rasengan should be stronger than normal Rasengan. now, if my memories don't deceive me, elemental advantage will come into play if two opposing jutsu are of same power or the weak element jutsu is weaker. however, elemental advantage won't do much good if the weak element jutsu is stronger. you won't have to look far, Naruto couldn't cut through Third Raikage's barrier despite of elemental advantage using Rasen Shuriken, a super strong wind jutsu.

    the bottomline is, Rasengan isn't weak against Great Fireball. Fūton: Rasengan, even though it is wind element, it is much stronger than Great Fireball, hence it isn't weak against Great Fireball either.
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    Re: Naruto 612 Discussion / 613 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Ripcord View Post
    As to Itachi getting the upper hand on Kabuto: he's a frigging Uchiha.
    The only reason Itachi got the upper hand against Kabuto was ( without counting the worst asspull in recent times ) because he had Sasuke as back-up.

    On the genjutsu issue, the user of the genjutsu imo could be able to disrupt Sage Mode if he knows how to use and manipulate Sage energy, otherwise he wouldn't be able to significatively alter the user's chakra flow.
    Its known though that SM users can be affected by genjutsus, and that, when they are hit, they remain in Sage Mode.

    The only 2 times Naruto got out of SM unwillingly were:
    1. Against Preta Path
    2. When Kyuubi affected him with his will, forcing his chakra inside Naruto.

    If we go by option 2, the Genjutsu user, to end SM, would need to overpower it
    Last edited by Uchiha_Blood; December 09, 2012 at 07:50 AM.

  14. #326
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    Re: Naruto 612 Discussion / 613 Predictions

    I don't think that sage mode's weaknesses are the genjutsu.
    Infact the sage mode improves the genjutsu ability together to the other things.
    Infact I believe that the normal Naruto is weak against the genjutsu (or at least against the normal sharingan (while perhaps he is able to break the other genjutsu (infact at the beginning of Shippuden we know that Jiraya teached him about that)).
    At the opposite I believe that in sage mode (even if we have not any test that confirm this) Naruto will be able to evade from the normal sharingan, but he will lose against the MS or EMS.
    And in the Biju's mode he will be able to evade even from the MS, just like Bee did against Sasuke.

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    Re: Naruto 612 Discussion / 613 Predictions

    Well , Sasuke won't use genjutsu against Naruto ... not because his genjutsu has no effect but only because Naruto is main character and has some obvious lame advantage over his opponent ......

    for example , Tobi could control Sandaime kazekage with his genjtusu ( and he was prefect jinchuriki ) but he never use genjutsu against Naruto ...

    Or Madara is a genjutsu beast but he never use his genjutsu against Naruto ....

    some good guys have some advantage .... .for example , Tobi could beat Yondaime with genjutsu or at least trap him in his genjtusu for 1 second ( in worst scenario ) but he didn't use Genjutsu even when Minato directly looked at his sharingan !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    lame writing .......

    ---------- Post added at 09:38 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:05 AM ----------

    anyway , I hope kishi won't bring back some ideology chalange for Naruto anymore .... This is become a real pain for me to reading some bullshit as Naruto's answer for world's problems .... and the last one is worst one , " I don't care ... " ... and Naruto consider himself as World's Savior !!!
    خداحافظ

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    Re: Naruto 612 Discussion / 613 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by shafagh View Post
    for example , Tobi could control Sandaime kazekage with his genjtusu ( and he was prefect jinchuriki ) but he never use genjutsu against Naruto ...
    Do we know that he had the bjuu when kazekage was under Tobi's control?

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    Re: Naruto 612 Discussion / 613 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by hollowdemon View Post
    Exactly! Please cease this whole genjutsu > sage mode nonsense..... It's really pointless
    I'm a bit confused how people are still able to think with Kurama that Naruto won't be able to fight off a genjutsu after knowing the hachibi helped out Bee from a genjutsu and adding that it's able to nullify his sage mode. I find it ridiculous to even have it as a topic of discussion


    Starting to sound like a bunch of that uchiha, or in this case sasuke too much.

    Fireball is a fire element while Rasengan is still a wind element.
    It's the element's weakness, fire > wind.
    Yep. I been saying it since the discussion started, but people still go on. Its utterly irrelevant now that Naruto and Kurama are buddies.

    Ya but I don't think any fire technique below Ameterasu is strong enough to stop FRS. Fireball would simply get blown away. As the analogy was given a strong enough wind can still put out a fire.

    ---------- Post added at 04:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:57 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Shackie View Post
    Do we know that he had the bjuu when kazekage was under Tobi's control?
    I'm not convinced he was a perfect jin. He could have taken control of the chakra but the 3 tails may not have been his partner.
    Give the best manga of all time some attention!

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    Re: Naruto 612 Discussion / 613 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by llamapie View Post
    Yep. I been saying it since the discussion started, but people still go on. Its utterly irrelevant now that Naruto and Kurama are buddies.

    Ya but I don't think any fire technique below Ameterasu is strong enough to stop FRS. Fireball would simply get blown away. As the analogy was given a strong enough wind can still put out a fire.
    madara should have some great fire jutsus to explode frs in naruto's hand, like a powerful hand grenade. however, kishi would not allow his savior main character getting purged in his own jutsu.

    besides, sasuke's susanoo in ems form, can shoot amaterasu disks like machine gun. He can hit frs in naruto's hand easily. still, naruto may dodge with his increased perception in sage mode or increased speed in rm.
    Last edited by abyozuu; December 09, 2012 at 12:22 PM.

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