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Thread: Naruto 612 Discussion

  1. #346
    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity llamapie's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 612 Discussion / 613 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by ninjabot View Post
    The word "perfect" was said, but only in the older scanlation that I can't find. Now there's only this:http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/507/13, which is still implying that no one should be powerful enough to control Yagura specifically because he's a Jinchuuriki. The fact that he has a bijuu is the important bit of info here. Or more accurately, the fact that even with a bijuu, Yagura could not escape Obito's control.



    Ignored? Oh, you misunderstand. I know for a FACT it's not gonna work. The problem is, it's canonically SUPPOSED to work. Without fail, based solely on the power of the Genjutsu used on him.



    That's extremely situational though. The literal only reason no other Genjutsu worked on Kabuto is because they never succeeded in casting any other Genjutsu. His eyes were closed practically the entire fight. Had nothing to do with his chakra being too powerful to disrupt with Genjutsu. Izanami went off without a hitch. I've absolutely no reason to believe looking directly at him with a Sharingan Genjutsu or Tsukuyomi wouldn't have ended him right then and there.
    Neither do you.
    Its quite possible that Madara had control of the mizukage before Obito was in the picture, and it was through a transferred means that Obito gained control as well. Either way we don't have enough information and as we know nothing is in absolutes, but degrees. SM probably gives a larger resistance to Genjutsu simply because how it works. Naruto is able to sense chakra in that form and his chakra is also extremely strong. As we know one way to break a genjutsu is by blasting your chakra above the level of your attacker, this is something he can do with SM. As to how it handles hack eye genjutsu? Well we saw with Kabuto, not so well - but that cost Itachi an eye. Nor do we know that Kabuto's SM works the same as Naruto's. We both know they have similar roots but it seems the effects on the user is also very different.

    From a story standpoint its pretty simple. Naruto and Sasuke are arch rivals. Naruto needed an answer against chidori, he gained FRS. He needed an answer to help counter the sharingan's ability to predict movements, he gained SM which counters that particular ability of the sharingan. He needed a way to counter genjutsu, he gained a partner in Kyuubi. I mean yes there are questions to all of this. Like if Kagura was really a perfect jin, how could he be controlled? We don't even know if it was genjutsu controlling him. We just assume it was.
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  2. #347
    MangaHelper MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Rikudou King's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 612 Discussion / 613 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by llamapie View Post
    You're missing that Naruto won't be affected by Genjutsu because the Kyuubi is his partner now. Why ignore this argument? And I never said it wouldn't work, I just think he would be capable of breaking genjutsu in SM because his chakra caliber is that much stronger. As we saw with Kabuto, a sage can still be put under a genjutsu strong enough to overwhelm him, but nothing else worked on him. Itachi had to lose an eye.
    It isn't that he wouldn't be affected by it, merely that he'll have the means to escape it once caught. Case in point, Itachi had no trouble catching Kirabi and holding him for some time before the Hachibi could free him.

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  4. #348
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member shafagh's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 612 Discussion / 613 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Shackie View Post
    Do we know that he had the bjuu when kazekage was under Tobi's control?
    Oh ... I mean , Sandiame Mizukage ... and we knew jinchuriki will die if biju get extract from their body ........

    for fun :

    Spoiler show
    Last edited by shafagh; December 10, 2012 at 03:54 AM.
    خداحافظ

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  6. #349
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member badluckartist's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 612 Discussion / 613 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by llamapie View Post
    \Like if Kagura was really a perfect jin, how could he be controlled? We don't even know if it was genjutsu controlling him. We just assume it was.
    I've always assumed Yagura was controlled by other means specifically because he's a jin and genjutsu simply would never work like that. Maybe Madara just held his family hostage forever lol

    ---------- Post added at 09:28 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:23 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    It isn't that he wouldn't be affected by it, merely that he'll have the means to escape it once caught. Case in point, Itachi had no trouble catching Kirabi and holding him for some time before the Hachibi could free him.
    "Some time" looks to me to be about a couple seconds. Just about as long as it was held on Bee when Sasuke used Tsukuyomi on him ages ago.

  7. #350
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member number12michael's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 612 Discussion / 613 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by badluckartist View Post
    I've always assumed Yagura was controlled by other means specifically because he's a jin and genjutsu simply would never work like that. Maybe Madara just held his family hostage forever lol

    ---------- Post added at 09:28 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:23 AM ----------



    "Some time" looks to me to be about a couple seconds. Just about as long as it was held on Bee when Sasuke used Tsukuyomi on him ages ago.
    could it have been Kotoamatsukami ?
    "Keep Eating Shit For The Rest Of Your Life " - 愛憎のロクサーヌ- Roxanne of Love and Hate

  8. #351
    Registered User 九千以上だ! / Kyuusen Ijou Da! / It's Over 9000! mattiaildivino's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 612 Discussion / 613 Predictions

    No : sasuke couldn't control the time inside his tsukuyomi world,whereas itachi could,that was according to danzo,and confirmed by tobi a bit after. In fact,kakashi told chiyo that against itachi's ms even the counter of making a comrade release the illusion was useless...

  9. #352
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member jalix's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 612 Discussion / 613 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by shafagh View Post
    Well , Sasuke won't use genjutsu against Naruto ... not because his genjutsu has no effect but only because Naruto is main character and has some obvious lame advantage over his opponent ......

    for example , Tobi could control Sandaime kazekage with his genjtusu ( and he was prefect jinchuriki ) but he never use genjutsu against Naruto ...
    I hope this is touched upon in the story. One theory is that Yagura was not a 'perfect' jinchuuriki at the time. Hard to argue he wasn't since he's there talking to the others but at the same time, maybe that was just plot work. Because is it 'believable' that all of them just so happened to be perfect jinchuuriki at the time of their death/extraction?

  10. #353
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted ninjabot's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 612 Discussion / 613 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by llamapie
    Its quite possible that Madara had control of the mizukage before Obito was in the picture, and it was through a transferred means that Obito gained control as well. Either way we don't have enough information and as we know nothing is in absolutes, but degrees. SM probably gives a larger resistance to Genjutsu simply because how it works. Naruto is able to sense chakra in that form and his chakra is also extremely strong. As we know one way to break a genjutsu is by blasting your chakra above the level of your attacker, this is something he can do with SM. As to how it handles hack eye genjutsu? Well we saw with Kabuto, not so well - but that cost Itachi an eye. Nor do we know that Kabuto's SM works the same as Naruto's. We both know they have similar roots but it seems the effects on the user is also very different.
    I still don't get the idea that jinchuuriki are impossible to be controlled, after we've seen it happen ad nauseum. We've seen Obito control SIX bijuu at once. It took the Rinnegan's sealing chains and black rods for their full bijuu forms to be controlled, but they also had Sharingan Genjutsu placed on them, and he only resorted to chains when controlling multiple bijuu at once. But somehow he's gonna need Madara's help to control one jinchuuriki? And once again, Sage Mode only increases the base abilities of the user. Naruto is so horrible at escaping Genjutsu that any aid he gains from SM would be so negligable he should never escape. Kabuto on the other hand is not only incredibly intelligent, but proficient with Genjutsu and thus, should have been able to boost his own Genjutsu escaping potential via Sage Mode. And STILL failed. I will however admit that the likely main reason he couldn't escape is because the literal only way to escape Izanami is by accepting one's personal reality. It doesn't work like your standard Genjutsu.

    Quote Quote:
    From a story standpoint its pretty simple. Naruto and Sasuke are arch rivals. Naruto needed an answer against chidori, he gained FRS. He needed an answer to help counter the sharingan's ability to predict movements, he gained SM which counters that particular ability of the sharingan. He needed a way to counter genjutsu, he gained a partner in Kyuubi. I mean yes there are questions to all of this. Like if Kagura was really a perfect jin, how could he be controlled? We don't even know if it was genjutsu controlling him. We just assume it was.
    Once again: Yagura can be controlled because no where is it ever claimed that perfect jinchuuriki are immune to all forms of Genjutsu. They simply have a partner who can break them out, the same way one would if they were using a human ally just standing near them. And just like how Tsukuyomi, Kotoamatsukami, and Izanami can't be disrupted by outside sources, there's absolutely no logic behind claiming a perfect jinchuuriki could escape them either. Naruto won't need Kurama's help or Sage Mode to escape Genjutsu in the future anyway. Kishimoto's just going to skirt past this and not even acknowledge how powerful Madara or Obito's Genjutsu are in this fight, and hope no one brings it up.

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  12. #354
    Registered User 九千以上だ! / Kyuusen Ijou Da! / It's Over 9000! mattiaildivino's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 612 Discussion / 613 Predictions

    I'm just pissed off cause bee is still avoiding using samehada. but that's not all there is: he must merge with it! or at least kishi has to explain why a not-water user can't merge with it...

  13. #355
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member number12michael's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 612 Discussion / 613 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by mattiaildivino View Post
    I'm just pissed off cause bee is still avoiding using samehada. but that's not all there is: he must merge with it! or at least kishi has to explain why a not-water user can't merge with it...
    ? dose he still have it with him? u think it would go crazy being near nine tails....and madara has infinite chakra thats a all u can eat buffet to Samehada( on that i watched 1 epi of naruto in english and they called it "shark skin" yet they still called Sharingan by its name and not "Copy weel eye" annoyed me so i turned it off lol and went to the japanese epi)
    "Keep Eating Shit For The Rest Of Your Life " - 愛憎のロクサーヌ- Roxanne of Love and Hate

  14. #356
    Registered User 九千以上だ! / Kyuusen Ijou Da! / It's Over 9000! mattiaildivino's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 612 Discussion / 613 Predictions

    he does have it with him,it's just that they were inside gyuki,so it could escape either. yet,now that they are there,they have to merge. I know madara's got infinite chakra,but bee's powerup would be useful nonetheless,as he should absorb chakra just touching

  15. #357
    MangaHelper MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Rikudou King's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 612 Discussion / 613 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by badluckartist View Post
    "Some time" looks to me to be about a couple seconds. Just about as long as it was held on Bee when Sasuke used Tsukuyomi on him ages ago.
    I would believe their exchange took more then a couple of seconds. Regardless, you would note that neither he nor the Hachibi knew about being in a genjutsu til Itachi outright told them, which was the original point, that just being a prefect Jinchuuriki by no means mean that they can't be caught in a genjutsu.

  16. #358
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Invader's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 612 Discussion / 613 Predictions

    So Shikamaru's dad really thinks it is a good idea to send all Taijutsu users up against a guy that can pull out Susanoo at any time and use Moukton? Really? And he's supposed to be really intelligent?
    Hidan... Naruto's ONLY real villain!

  17. #359
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member jalix's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 612 Discussion / 613 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by mattiaildivino View Post
    I'm just pissed off cause bee is still avoiding using samehada. but that's not all there is: he must merge with it! or at least kishi has to explain why a not-water user can't merge with it...
    Ah yes, Samehada. The mightiest, greatest of the swords of the 7 swordsment of the mist, rendered obsolete somehow. A sword that gobbled up and ate chakra like a fat guy in a buffet. Useless & not evne used. I alomost wish that fat tiger guy had it when he was fighting in the war so that it would have at least been given the credit it was due. But nope, didn't happen.

    My only hope is that it will play a role at some point and prove to be more than just a valuable, sentient weapon but somehow attached to the sage, perhaps even using chakra or something to help form the other weapons. But that's beyond a pipe dream.

    ---------- Post added at 05:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:14 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Invader View Post
    So Shikamaru's dad really thinks it is a good idea to send all Taijutsu users up against a guy that can pull out Susanoo at any time and use Moukton? Really? And he's supposed to be really intelligent?
    Don't look directly into the hole - otherwise it will consume you.

    From what we've seen thus far, it's almost like Shikamaru's dad is playing a cruel trick. I wonder if he and that girl in the watch-tower have a game going on... "Hey, wanna see 20,000 people rush to their deaths? Watch this... it'll be a riot..."

    But no seriously, I think there will be more to it than that (the order to use taijutsu on a guy that fry them in an instant).

  18. #360
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted gnut's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 612 Discussion / 613 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by jalix View Post
    I hope this is touched upon in the story. One theory is that Yagura was not a 'perfect' jinchuuriki at the time. Hard to argue he wasn't since he's there talking to the others but at the same time, maybe that was just plot work. Because is it 'believable' that all of them just so happened to be perfect jinchuuriki at the time of their death/extraction?
    frankly i believe if obito was the one that controlled yagura...then why is it so hard for individuals to believe he tricked kisame with genjutsu(giving the appearance of madara)?

    i still say it was madara who was behind yagura...maybe using the black rods.but,obito has never shown the ability to control anyone besides ETs...but we know the rinnegan can manipulate living beings...so the rinnegan or shisui's tech are the only two abilities to have been shown controlling living people...correct me if i'm wrong...

    now,the only other thing i can think of about kisame is...he was weaker than yagura and was inexperienced in sensing who/how strong madara/obito was/were.in other words,he was a young man from a different village...so right there he was disadvantaged.he has no erected statue in his village/land of madara nor the history lessons...only lore/myths/fables....



    sidenote...the spiral zetsu still has not been addressed...he may have something to do with controlling yagura...

    if i remember right...yagura's tailed beast was loose.they said it takes time for the bijuu to reform/be reborn if their host is/was killed(bijuu still sealed within).so,no telling if obito screwed up and killed him or it was planned...no matter...the bijju would take some time to come back.
    hence,not giving up the fact that yagura was dead but in the mean time he had free access to a village of ruthless shinobi....
    Last edited by gnut; December 10, 2012 at 05:43 PM.
    But the stink that filled the privy gave ample evidence that the oft-repeated jape about his father was just another lie. Lord Tywin Lannister did not, in the end, shit gold

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