Bleach 519 Discussion

[Lee.J.Baxter]

I've been thinking about why the Soul King and transcendental Aizen have a similar appearance, and it struck me...what if the Soul King that we've just seen IS Aizen?!? In all honestly, it would be an uber-troll on KT's part if this turned out to be true, but I think it's certainly a possibility!!! So, how would he have pulled it off???...

Well, the first thing we know is that although Aizen has lost his Zanpakutou he certainly hasn't lost his powers, as he's managed to alter Juhabach's perception. The question is, was the man sitting in the underground prison really Aizen, or was it an illusion caused by Aizen's power? Furthermore, it appears as though Aizen managed to alter Juhabach's perception without the usually-required ritual!!! Taking this into account, we can safely assume that Aizen has been able to use his powers even after his transformations, quite possibly without requiring the ritual; he could have easily hypnotised ANYBODY since this point (even Ichigo)!!!

How he would have actually gotten into the Royal Dimension and overthrown the Soul King, I haven't really thought on it, but I've got a gut feeling about this!!!!!

[Schabrak]

If and what's aren't needed since we have seen them act like that. Did they care when the send those two Shinigami girls to the city known for having some hollow problems, especially because it's such an important place. Shinigami are there to do their business, they are warriors, similar to the Samurai of the medieval Japan, the code was more important than their life Imo, at least until Ichigo did crash into SS and started to change their view. I don't intend to turn this into a history debate so I will just drop some clues: priestism in Japan, descendant of gods, shintoism, Buddhism, (neo-)confucianism, The Cambridge history of Japan.

Do you want to hear about possible explanation from me/the users or in the manga? If it's Nr 1, just read the thread or better the last one. That are two shinigami capable of bankai, that alone makes them more special, one is a noble and they are all connected to Ichigo. Rukia isn't a weakling either, has a strong ice zanpakatou and even took down an espada. I will wait and see, hopefully it's a mix of these reasons, not just a single one. And I thinks it's more their decision to take them up there, not the SKs. Bonzen clearly differentiated the reason for taking Ichigo and rest.

How he would have actually gotten into the Royal Dimension and overthrown the Soul King, I haven't really thought on it, but I've got a gut feeling about this!!!!!

If I were you, I would stop trusting that gut feeling, because it that idea sounds like shit and does absolutely not work with the plot presented. Just NO.

[Notak]

Royal Guard's duty is to protect the king. I can say they couldn't care less about Byakuya dying or anything so.

Well, the Gotei 13 also defend the king, they are the second layer of defense for SS after all, and once they're done for then the royals have to step in personally.
So I think the Gotei 13 matters to the king as well. He did order the Zero division to rebuild the Gotei 13 right?

Exactly, he has different priorities or else he wouldn't be watching SS getting trashed from his secluded dimension.
That's why I'm saying he can't have a nice personality. If one has the authority, it's very unlikely for him to be literally nice.
He can be as nice as Captain-Commander was, though.

Hmm I wonder if he'll even talk. Maybe he just communicates through telepathy to the few people he talks to. It's difficult (for me) to imagine him actually talking.

(this may explain what GF was talking about when he mentioned Ichigo's 'pure blood'; perhaps the Ouken also gives the Royal Guard enhanced strength, and this was passed onto Ichigo through his blood).

True, Grand Fisher probably meant that Ichigo is of pure spiritual blood, 'cause it seems like Quincy also inherit abilities.
(Would be cool if Bach was the ancestor of all Quincy)


And Ichigo inheriting power from Isshin's King's Key? Now that'd be awesome. I like that.

[Pigov]

Do you want to hear about possible explanation from me/the users or in the manga? If it's Nr 1, just read the thread or better the last one.

The latter, i just wanted to state that iam looking forward to kubos explanation on that matter ^^
Sadly, i dont think your obvious-approach to an explanation is sufficient for me, since bankais arent what it takes to defeat sternritter, all of them failed, but kenpachi did not. So you are right, bankai-shinigamis are really rare and maybe thats why they should be saved, but there just has to be more to it. I will wait and see ^^ Just hoipe that kubo doesnt wait with the answer like he did with lots of other things :P

[Hakuteiken]

Well, the Gotei 13 also defend the king, they are the second layer of defense for SS after all, and once they're done for then the royals have to step in personally.
So I think the Gotei 13 matters to the king as well. He did order the Zero division to rebuild the Gotei 13 right?

Still, his guards waited till Captain-Commander died and the Quincy retreated. If they are as powerful as they are speculated to be, then, obviously they could interfere before SS turned into a mess.
So, anyway, while she didn't show proper etiquette, Soifon was right.

Hmm I wonder if he'll even talk. Maybe he just communicates through telepathy to the few people he talks to. It's difficult (for me) to imagine him actually talking.

That's tough to judge. If he's a transcendent being, that's a possibility.

[ca12nag3]

Still, his guards waited till Captain-Commander died and the Quincy retreated. If they are as powerful as they are speculated to be, then, obviously they could interfere before SS turned into a mess.
So, anyway, while she didn't show proper etiquette, Soifon was right.



That's tough to judge. If he's a transcendent being, that's a possibility.

The Royal guard are not soldiers they are Royal guard. They dont fight unless the soul king orders them. As far as i can tell the soul king isnt that much interested in SS. But well see.

[Hakuteiken]

The Royal guard are not soldiers they are Royal guard. They dont fight unless the soul king orders them. As far as i can tell the soul king isnt that much interested in SS. But well see.

And I'm exactly thinking the same way.
Soul King isn't a little nice guy who prioritizes SS over something else. His motives are yet to be seen, but he has definitely not been portrayed as an omnibenevolent divine figure so far.

[Godzen]

Hello everyone, here's my theory that's most likely going to happen.

First of all, about Aizen... The emo lady has described him as the very personification of evil...yeah right. If Aizen's so evil then why didn't he really kill anyone even though he had many chances to do that? Why has he refused Bach's offer? And why the hell did Aizen mess with his perception of time in the first place? I bet you're thinking "for his own goals of course,like usual" Well,who knows,maybe...BUT to be honest I highly doubt it because ALL Aizen really wanted was to make a better world and he was definitely right about that. There's something absolutely wrong with the world. Remember that "Victors must always speak of the way the world should be, not the way it is!"
I completely agree with the statement because that's 100 % true.
And does anyone remember how Ichigo described Aizen when their fight ended? I don't quite remember the quote very well myself but Ichigo mentioned that all Aizen wanted was to find a person that would be his equal...I forgot what else he said though. So..is he really that damn evil?! I don't think so.

Now my theory,

I suppose many people think that Bach isn't going to stay as the last villain of the manga...I'm quite sure of that. I think that the Soul King is going to be the last villain...Yes, I think he's evil as well as the royal guards and THAT'S why Aizen wanted to make a better world...in order to do that he was thinking to take care of the evil trashes like them and becoming "God" himself by overthrowing the evil "God" aka the current Soul King. Also this Soul King must be somehow related to Aizen, he might even be his twin brother or something..One brother is evil while the other is good and they want Ichigo and the rest to think that Aizen himself is the evil twin brother. I think the emo lady is manipulating Ichigo by pointing out that Aizen is the personification of evil which is definitely not true. And it looks a bit pathetic...like really, the whole Soul Society along with the Soul King and their royal guards againts Bach and his quincies...? Are you serious? The only one really powerful guy from the quincies is Bach of course while Ichigo, Kenpachi , Uhahara , The Soul king, the royal guards and lots of more supporting the other side? Open your eyes, there's something totally wrong.

[haarisa]

There is something off on the soul king. He resembles Aizen when he was going through his transformations. So here is the thing: Numbers speak, but think about the it. Aizen hates the Soul King, this Bach guy is basically avenging the wrong done to him, AND no one did anything to hunt down the murderer of Ichigo's mother. Granted, she was a quincy, but considering Ichigo saved their lives more than once, it seems a little strange that he would not be included in anything. I feel like (and someone may have mentioned this before) the Ginjo story line was there for more of a reason than just him to get his powers back. There was a basis for Ginjo to hate Soul Society as well. Right now, Ichigo is at a real critical point in character development where he is realizing all these combination of powers. I'm just saying, Ginjo, Aizen, Bach, even Ishida to a degree, all have something against SS. The ultimate factor of which side Ichigo is going to side with is what side will end up protecting the humans.

[Duniak]

First of all, about Aizen... The emo lady has described him as the very personification of evil...yeah right. If Aizen's so evil then why didn't he really kill anyone even though he had many chances to do that? Why has he refused Bach's offer? And why the hell did Aizen mess with his perception of time in the first place? I bet you're thinking "for his own goals of course,like usual" Well,who knows,maybe...BUT to be honest I highly doubt it because ALL Aizen really wanted was to make a better world and he was definitely right about that. There's something absolutely wrong with the world. Remember that "Victors must always speak of the way the world should be, not the way it is!"
I completely agree with the statement because that's 100 % true.
And does anyone remember how Ichigo described Aizen when their fight ended? I don't quite remember the quote very well myself but Ichigo mentioned that all Aizen wanted was to find a person that would be his equal...I forgot what else he said though. So..is he really that damn evil?! I don't think so.
.

So.. Aizen was about to kill Yamaji, he made an Arrancar specifically to kill Yamaji. He cut down EVERY captain from G13, he faked his death, he stabbed Hinamori without hesitation knowing her love and attachment to him, he attacked Hitsugaya, he was attacking Ichigo with intent to kill. I don't care about his intentions. His way of doing things WAS evil, just like him. It's not freakin' Makaveli. The end DOESN'T justify means. Get freakin' real. It'd be nice plottwist, but abandon hope for Aizen being very good guy.

Are you serious? The only one really powerful guy from the quincies is Bach of course while Ichigo, Kenpachi , Uhahara , The Soul king, the royal guards and lots of more supporting the other side? Open your eyes, there's something totally wrong

Hashwald could MOP THE FLOOR with Ichigo. Kirge wasn't so weak. They can steal Bankai. They can keep up with senior captains in Shikai. They can kill someone like Byakuya with ease, while having their bankai. THEY CONQUERED HM, MOPING THE FLOOR WITH EVERY HOLLOW. G13 was hopeless. We don't know if SK can even fight. Bach has now Yamaji's bankai, Vollstandig and is personally so strong, that Ichigo couldn't lift a finger against him. Ichigo, who is already RG level, I think. Still, you think it's a joke? That's some big assumptions you have there. Btw, yes. I'm serious, and my eyes are wide open.

[jaymizzo]

Hello everyone, here's my theory that's most likely going to happen.

First of all, about Aizen... The emo lady has described him as the very personification of evil...yeah right. If Aizen's so evil then why didn't he really kill anyone even though he had many chances to do that? Why has he refused Bach's offer? And why the hell did Aizen mess with his perception of time in the first place? I bet you're thinking "for his own goals of course,like usual" Well,who knows,maybe...BUT to be honest I highly doubt it because ALL Aizen really wanted was to make a better world and he was definitely right about that. There's something absolutely wrong with the world. Remember that "Victors must always speak of the way the world should be, not the way it is!"
I completely agree with the statement because that's 100 % true.
And does anyone remember how Ichigo described Aizen when their fight ended? I don't quite remember the quote very well myself but Ichigo mentioned that all Aizen wanted was to find a person that would be his equal...I forgot what else he said though. So..is he really that damn evil?! I don't think so.

Now my theory,

I suppose many people think that Bach isn't going to stay as the last villain of the manga...I'm quite sure of that. I think that the Soul King is going to be the last villain...Yes, I think he's evil as well as the royal guards and THAT'S why Aizen wanted to make a better world...in order to do that he was thinking to take care of the evil trashes like them and becoming "God" himself by overthrowing the evil "God" aka the current Soul King. Also this Soul King must be somehow related to Aizen, he might even be his twin brother or something..One brother is evil while the other is good and they want Ichigo and the rest to think that Aizen himself is the evil twin brother. I think the emo lady is manipulating Ichigo by pointing out that Aizen is the personification of evil which is definitely not true. And it looks a bit pathetic...like really, the whole Soul Society along with the Soul King and their royal guards againts Bach and his quincies...? Are you serious? The only one really powerful guy from the quincies is Bach of course while Ichigo, Kenpachi , Uhahara , The Soul king, the royal guards and lots of more supporting the other side? Open your eyes, there's something totally wrong.

Aizen wanted to be Soul king or whatever it was because he wanted to govern the world as he saw fit. Sure that does not make him evil but how else was he going to create a spirit key?

Its like saying Tobi isnt evil because all he wants is Eternal Peace, we all know thats B.S.

[Hakuteiken]

Hashwald could MOP THE FLOOR with Ichigo. Kirge wasn't so weak. They can steal Bankai. They can keep up with senior captains in Shikai. They can kill someone like Byakuya with ease, while having their bankai. THEY CONQUERED HM, MOPING THE FLOOR WITH EVERY HOLLOW. G13 was hopeless. We don't know if SK can even fight. Bach has now Yamaji's bankai, Vollstandig and is personally so strong, that Ichigo couldn't lift a finger against him. Ichigo, who is already RG level, I think. Still, you think it's a joke? That's some big assumptions you have there. Btw, yes. I'm serious, and my eyes are wide open.

In a way, that Bankai stealing medallion will be casted aside at some point, most likely by work from Urahara, Mayuri and fellow scientists. Many of the SR achieved a stalemate against captains in Shikai, so, it's not as if they were stronger by any means. Granted, probably they didn't go Vollstandig, but that neutralizes the Bankai-less captains anyway.
So, apart from Haschwald, who looks immensely strong, and Bach, currently the head of the Quincy with a history, it's not like they have some big names out there. The other captains, seniors and the rest, will probably hold their ground again in the next assault.
And Ichigo being RG level is a big assumption. There's no indication about a Royal Guard's power level. Even if we assume this to be true, it'd be like 2-versus-6 (Haschwald and Bach vs Royal Guards and Ichigo).

I'd say, without medallion, SS will most likely turn the tides in this war.

[Glassjaw003]

Still, his guards waited till Captain-Commander died and the Quincy retreated. If they are as powerful as they are speculated to be, then, obviously they could interfere before SS turned into a mess.
So, anyway, while she didn't show proper etiquette, Soifon was right.

At this point it seems that they had saved the Captains most hurt. Why? That we can't say for sure. Some people say the King would care for the Gotei 13, while others say he wouldn't. We have no idea about his beliefs because all we have seen is his face, and not even a word.

I think the reason for saving the members and trying to heal them is simple, to get on Ichigos good side. There wasn't a reason to save the Gotei 13 because them getting owned would help in doing this. They were right when they said that the Gotei 13 has a job and that they should be ashamed that they couldn't do it, but at the same time if your enemy is powerful and motives clear, then what is the point of waiting to attack until all of the SS is dead? Even if they were able to win that battle, they just lost a huge chunk of the SS, probably upsetting the balance.

In my opinion, the Quincy aren't all that bad, and from what we heard it seems that they were at fault for upsetting the balance but that only came form the word of a Shinigami, we really can't say if that was true or not.
I think Bach may be in the right as well as maybe Aizen, but who knows. Or both sides could be dead wrong, and because the Gotei 13 was changing a bit so the RG decided to let them feel the pain. Ichigo could be caught in the middle of a continuation of the war, in which he will have to put a stop to it himself.

[mattiaildivino]

to be honest,hakuteiken, the quincies didn't use their full powers either,just the opponents' bankai. when the moustache VR used the vollstanding,he could outspeed kyoraku. I guess they didn't use it for 2 reasons: 1)they were already aware of the fact they were there to slow down the gotei 13,and to steal some bankai. the next time SS will counter the medallions,but the vollstanding is needed to counter this counterattack ; 2)the other reason is that kubo didn't want to show all the last enemies' powers before the final fight

[kkck]

Well, SS ability to turn the tide of the war depends on a number of things even past the medallions issue. Overall I would argue the main issue they will have once the medallions are dealt with is the number of people on each side. Overall SS has many allies however they can and perhaps will act independently and maybe even against the overall goals of SS itself. So far we have reason to believe there were 27 stern rittern (2 of them had the letter Y). So we have kirge, royd, loyd, and the 3 guys kenpachi killed as dead stern rittern meaning there are still at least 21 of them left and juhabach to deal with. Juhabach is apparently as powerful as yamamoto or at least it would seem he follows the general rule seem in military groups in the manga where the leader is as strong or stronger than the rest.

Now, taking that in consideration the issue would be exactly how powerful the weakest stern rittern is. We didn't actually see a single VC actually holding a candle to any one stern rittern so it is still a perfectly viable scenario that any one of the stern rittern could still be significantly more powerful than any VC (with the exception of renji as he has bankai). And even then we have to consider the possibility of every stern rittern having access to volstandig. While the number of stern rittern actually match the number of captain and vice captain level shinigami it does seem like there actually isn't a difference in rank between then, even the letter is kinda based on their abilities rather than their amount of power or position among them (unless kubo makes this into an overwhelming councidence and the letters match their abilities and power level/rank). Basically all of the stern rittern have the same rank so far so A wouldn't having a rank or position any higher than what soifon as captain of the second squad would have over kyoraku the captain of the 8th. I would think that the apparent fact that all stern rittern have the same position equivalent to that of a captain suggest that each and every one of them overall has considerable strength, at least more so than a regular VC.

Now, taking that in consideration there is the possibility of volstandig being a power readily available for all stern rittern. Volstandig is not an innate ability which has to be nurtured and mastered as bankai is to shinigami as far as we have seen. Volstandig is an induced state for quincy which is acquired through a gadget. While not every shinigami will necessarily have even a shot at using bankai, it is perfectly possible and perhaps probable that every quincy has access to the glove or gadget which induces the volstandig. Overall the limited information which have does seem to suggest that a quincy acquiring volstandig would be simpler than a shinigami acquiring bankai.

So, even without the medallion, what would have been the situation of the shinigami in the worst case scenario? The 13 captains had to face 16 or so quincies all of which have at least power easily beyond the VCs and volstandig. In this situation the quincy are not screwed, they simply have to kick things up a notch and respond to shinigami bankai with quincy volstandig. While I am certain a number of quincy would have been in a similar situation as kirge was against ichigo (kirge got his ass handed to him relatively easily) there will still be a number of quincy who would have been more than capable of fighting against a bankai with the normal abilities of a volstandig. So in a situation where the weakest quincy is still much stronger than a VC and they all have volstandig the issue would be that the captains are severely outnumbered. While the medallions are the immediate main cause for the latest shinigami defeat, they are certainly not the only issue. Without the medal the quincy would simply have to fight with their true strength.