Not a member? Register now!
Announcements
Manga returns! Catch up with the details. Enjoy downloading, translating, and scanlating manga HERE legally!
Like us on Facebook, follow us on Twitter! Celebrate another year with MH and read our yearbook.
Manga News: Check out this week's new manga (7/21/14 - 7/27/14).
Forum News: Visit new sections for Nisekoi and Kingdom!
Translations: Gintama 503 by kewl0210 , One Piece 753 by cnet128 , Bleach 589 (2)
New Reply
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 23

Thread: Zoro' use of armament haki

  1. #1
    Intl Translator 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity ukimix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Country
    Colombia
    Posts
    3,059
    Post Thanks / Like

    Zoro' use of armament haki

    The discussion is from 3 weeks ago from that scene in chapter 687 in which Zoro cut's Monet's cheek. This is the scene:



    Does Zoro use armament haki there? I have reasoned that the only way to explain the blood in Monet's face is that Zoro cut her using haki. With out haki, it would be like a cut in ice wich wouldn't produce any bleeding.

    Hoeru and Mr Arachi have found weird the possibility to imbue haki to the air. I trully don't understand their reasons, but I think, ultimately, it has been accepted that without haki is not possible to explain the blood. Only that, against the idea that it's possible to imbue haki to air, hoeru has reasoned that the haki that makes possible to cut Monet comes from Tashigi's hug in that moment, and not from Zoro's ability to imbue haki to air. (The possibility was saw by Strawhat13).

    Well, the technique Zoro could be using there is called Sanjuroku Pound Ho. It was used firstly against Brahma in this Battle from Skypia arc. Wikia says about it:

    Quote Quote:
    Sanjuroku Pound Ho (三十六煩悩(ポンド)鳳 Sanjūroku Pondo Hō?, kanji meaning "Phoenix of the 36 Earthly Desires"; furigana meaning "Pound Phoenix/Cannon"): This attack uses the air itself to slash the target from a distance. To initiate it, Zoro first holds one of his swords horizontally above the shoulder of his sword arm, and then performs a circular swing that launches the air compressed projectile spiraling towards the target. Zoro introduced this technique as a very powerful Flying Slash Attack. This was first seen being used to finish off Braham in Enel's Survival Game. The attack's name is actually a very heavy pun, it's written out as "Phoenix of the 36 Earthly Desires" in the manga with a skewed reading attached that makes it "36 Pound Ho" when read out. Ho means both Cannon and Phoenix, however the attached kanji is for Phoenix, making that the literal translation and the "Cannon" reading a Pun on that, both of which are correct. The "Pound" part is a skewed reading of the Kanji "Bonnou" for Earthly Desires, and it is referring to the Caliber of a Cannon. (a 36 Caliber Cannon would fire a 36 Pound Ball) This technique is known as 36 Pound Phoenix in the Viz Manga, 36 Caliber Phoenix in the FUNimation dub (and sometimes the Viz Manga) and Single Sword Rising Phoenix in the 4Kids dub.[2]
    I was reading previous chapters to the arrival to Punk Hazard, and I found that, in fact, Zoro used the same technique here... and with armament haki, as we can say because of the dark color in the water pushed by it, that we can see in the space between the ship and the fish:

    Spoiler show


    So, the Sanjuroku Pound Ho can push other fluid mediums different than air. It is like if Jimbei would imbue haki to his Ushimizu.
    Last edited by ukimix; November 25, 2012 at 12:04 AM.

  2. #2
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member scandalous''s Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Country
    Suriname
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    439
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Zoro' use of armament haki

    I thought it was absolutely clear that zoro used haki on that page. He is obviously able to cut a object at a distance, but the technique he used to cut her HAS to have been infused with haki. Rules to certain techniques don't suddenly change just because you got stronger. No haki, means no touching a logia. It doesn't matter how strong you are, the rules stay the same.

    I think it was implicated a few pages later that he only cut her cheek like that to show her that he COULD use haki if he wanted to. And when he cut her after, he decided not to use. It's all mind games on zoro's part.

    Left panel in the middle, also explains it to a degree.
    Spoiler show


    Zoro also did not use haki on that fish. The technique is just one of extreme air pressure forced upon the target, actually cutting them. But the dark you see between the fish and the boat is just a drawing technique by the writer to highlight the pressure zoro is forcing upon the fish under water.

    Also, the explenation's given by the two users you posted, don't really make any sense. It wasn't after zoro cut monet, that tashigi and monet knew zoro was a haki user. I could be wrong, but there was no mention of it by them, that he could use haki. It was the cut that gave it away, thus highlighting it even more as a haki technique.
    Last edited by scandalous'; November 25, 2012 at 09:58 AM.

  3. #3
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member hoeru's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Country
    Mauritius
    Posts
    1,546
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Zoro' use of armament haki

    I'm still not convinced, as there's nothing pointing so far that Busoshoku Haki can be imbued into *AIR*, as Zoro didn't throw neither a snowball nor an ice pickle on Monet's cheek. In addition, Monet just had to become vincible - not only her ice teeth - so her attack on Tashigi could succeed. Everything we've seen so far included only imbuing Haki into solid objects. Even though Zoro's technique makes air sharp as a blade, I don't se how that is as solid as a real sword, one's fist or a gun bullet.

    There's just too much left unclear like how much Monet mastered her logia ability or if she was much too confident in her abilities and was just too careless - like when Luffy rammed Smoker and Ace in Spice Bean. And that part could be explained then by Zoro recognizing her "state of unreadiness" with Kenbunshoku Haki.

    And let's not forget: If it was possible to imbue Haki to air, it shouldn't be any problem to imbue Haki into one's surrounding air which would reduce a logia DF to a mere paramecia as logia users couldn't become intangible anymore within an area of the Busoshoku Haki user.

    If there's some irritation on Zoro either not using Busoshoku Haki or not being able to use Busoshoku Haki at all actually comes from the preceding chapter where he never really tried to attack Monet until Tashigi arrived and cut her for real.

  4. #4
    MangaHelper 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member MiyamotoMusashi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Country
    Marine Headquarters
    Posts
    2,404
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Zoro' use of armament haki

    Zoro only could have used CoA with that slash, there is no other possibility at this point.
    Monet is a Logia which are obviously intangible. Even if she is solid for a moment to attack and hurt Tashigi, that does not mean that she is tangible, those are 2 different things (pretty much proven here http://www.batoto.net/read/_/139225/...y_mangarule/12), the next, immediate panels show that again, Zoro cuts a solid Monet in half but this time without Haki. If she is bleeding and hurt as a Logia, then she was attacked with Haki, easy as that. Somebody touching a Logia with Haki does not make them tangible either because unlike Seastone or BB´s ability, Haki (CoA) does not prevent the user to use his ability, a Logia in particular is still his element even upon being touched or held with Haki, pretty much proven here: http://www.batoto.net/read/_/106234/...by_mangarule/3 and here http://www.batoto.net/read/_/107517/...by_mangarule/7. So even if we do not see it in that panel, this is proof that Haki can be used in combination with air slashed what i actually like btw.

    Now, how an air slash imbued with CoA works in detail is of course interesting but not a question we can answer 100% correctly. My reasoning always was that an air slash is just a normal slash which is so strong that the slash itself can actually fly through the air towards the target (remember how Zoro had to increase his strength to develop the technique 36 pondo ho), so that it can be imbued with CoA is actually quite logical. Also, following my logic makes hoeru´s point void, you do not actually imbue the air with Haki but the slash you are executing.

    Btw, i also would never use comedic relief scenes to explain the rules of the OP world or we would have to discuss about Sanji and Nami having Haki pre-TS and so forth.

  5. #5
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member hoeru's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Country
    Mauritius
    Posts
    1,546
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Zoro' use of armament haki

    Quote Originally Posted by MiyamotoMusashi View Post
    Btw, i also would never use comedic relief scenes to explain the rules of the OP world or we would have to discuss about Sanji and Nami having Haki pre-TS and so forth.
    No. That Spice Bean scene wasn't pure comic relief. It clearly proves that Logia users aren't intangible all the time.

    You guys are expecting that air can be imbued with Busoshoku Haki without any explanation so far from the manga - unlike Sanji and Nami beating up Luffy which was clearly explained by Oda in the SBS as "Luffy'S DF doesn't protect him from his friends", which is just another hint that careless DF users can be completely defenseless.

  6. #6
    MangaHelper 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member MiyamotoMusashi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Country
    Marine Headquarters
    Posts
    2,404
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Zoro' use of armament haki

    Quote Originally Posted by hoeru View Post
    No. That Spice Bean scene wasn't pure comic relief. It clearly proves that Logia users aren't intangible all the time.

    You guys are expecting that air can be imbued with Busoshoku Haki without any explanation so far from the manga - unlike Sanji and Nami beating up Luffy which was clearly explained by Oda in the SBS as "Luffy'S DF doesn't protect him from his friends", which is just another hint that careless DF users can be completely defenseless.
    Dude, even if you were right taking comedic relief scenes as proof for information (which i highly doubt should be done btw, there are several instances were those scenes contradict with everything we learned in fights) and thus Logia not being intangible all the time unless concentrating, it still does not explain why Monet, one of the most careful characters we have seen so far, would not be concentrating against an opponent who can clearly use Haki and has her held down and be tangible at exactly that point. Your explanations make even less sense than air slashes being able to be imbued with Haki. You also make a huge mistake in taking the SBS as manga explanation. Nami and Sanji hurting Luffy was never explained in the manga itself and if some fan had not asked that particular question, it would have stayed that way.

  7. #7
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member hoeru's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Country
    Mauritius
    Posts
    1,546
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Zoro' use of armament haki

    Quote Originally Posted by MiyamotoMusashi View Post
    You also make a huge mistake in taking the SBS as manga explanation. Nami and Sanji hurting Luffy was never explained in the manga itself and if some fan had not asked that particular question, it would have stayed that way.
    So, Akainu does not possess the abilities from the Magu Magu no Mi? That wasn't part of the manga, either but ONLY named in the SBS. It's actually you who deny facts just because you want your theory to fit.

  8. #8
    Intl Translator 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity ukimix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Country
    Colombia
    Posts
    3,059
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Zoro' use of armament haki

    Quote Originally Posted by hoeru View Post
    And let's not forget: If it was possible to imbue Haki to air, it shouldn't be any problem to imbue Haki into one's surrounding air which would reduce a logia DF to a mere paramecia as logia users couldn't become intangible anymore within an area of the Busoshoku Haki user.
    If I'm not wrong, this is the major problem you have with the possibility to imbue haki in air. Let's suppose someone uses CoA to imbue haki in the air contained into a relativety big sphere around him, with him as its center. What could be the problem for a logia user that is fighting against such a guy? Is that guy invencible? Not at all. Let me put it this way: what medium is more dangerous to a logia user?:

    1. A medium in which he loses his power to become intangible but keep his other DF powers. (user grabbed by a user of CoA)
    2. a medium in which he loses his power to become intangible and his otrhe related powers. (user chained by sea stone chains)
    3. A medium in which you can´t breath because the oxigen is removed from the air. (Ceasar Clown case)

    the third one could be the most dangerous, because if you can breath, at least you can throw a punch or use CoC or bite, etc. The whole thing would depend on what else that guy can do besides the trick that he can imbue haki in air. So I wouldn't be afraid that such a power would exist in One Piece ;-)

    ---------- Post added at 03:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:26 PM ----------

    Maybe you think that that posibility would make pointless the logia DF, but that's not the case. It would only increse the speed of the haki CoA user over the logia user. That's all. And this arc has shown that in a fight between a haki CoA user and logia user the speed and the power in the hits, are the key factor to the victory.

  9. #9
    MangaHelper 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member MiyamotoMusashi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Country
    Marine Headquarters
    Posts
    2,404
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Zoro' use of armament haki

    Quote Originally Posted by hoeru View Post
    So, Akainu does not possess the abilities from the Magu Magu no Mi? That wasn't part of the manga, either but ONLY named in the SBS. It's actually you who deny facts just because you want your theory to fit.
    So you are taking something that was extremely obvious as an example? Wow, i am impressed. Oda took all the three abilities of the Admirals as obvious, and again if someone would have not asked about that it would have stayed that way. I am not denying any facts at all, especially if you look at my initial post. Everything is proven within the realms (nice word) of the manga, in contrast to that your "disprovals" are purely conjectures.
    Your biggest problem seems to be the misconception that the air itself is supposed to be imbued with Haki but i even explained that, so if you do not have any points to actually disprove something i would suggest you keep more of an open mind.

  10. #10
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member hoeru's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Country
    Mauritius
    Posts
    1,546
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Zoro' use of armament haki

    Quote Originally Posted by MiyamotoMusashi View Post
    So you are taking something that was extremely obvious as an example? Wow, i am impressed. Oda took all the three abilities of the Admirals as obvious, and again if someone would have not asked about that it would have stayed that way. I am not denying any facts at all, especially if you look at my initial post. Everything is proven within the realms (nice word) of the manga, in contrast to that your "disprovals" are purely conjectures.
    Sarcasm doesn't suit you at this point because another example is the Super-floating wood as example for information from SBS concerning the CANON of the manga are 100% reliable.

    You are denying that Logia users are actually quite vulnerable as their intangibility is not in auto-mode as you suggested, which is proven wrong by the Spice Bean incident where Luffy rammed both Smoker (not knowing what was about to happen, but who was preparing an attack on Ace!) and Ace (seeing what was coming, but did NOT turn on his intangibility mode). That is hard canon fact.

    On the other hand, it's YOU who conjectures that busoshoku haki can be imbued into air without any proof whatsoever. Arrows and bullets are solid projectiles, air on the other hand is not. Even you have to see the difference, don't you?

    Quote Originally Posted by MiyamotoMusashi View Post
    Your biggest problem seems to be the misconception that the air itself is supposed to be imbued with Haki but i even explained that, so if you do not have any points to actually disprove something i would suggest you keep more of an open mind.
    So my biggest problem is, that I want YOU to PROVE your theories from the manga or SBS to deny my theory Zoro simply used Kenbunshoku to hit Monet at the right time.

    Now what is more possible:
    1. Zoro imbuing Busoshoku Haki into air - which is NEVER said to have happened before in the manga, not even when Mihawk fired that giant slashes in Marineford which was the biggest opportunity
    2. Zoro observing the enemy with Kenbunshoku and hit Monet right on time to cause enough irritation?

    I know most are going to choose No.1 because it's simply catchy... But on the other hand it just opens the door to Busoshoku becoming a very broken power, even more powerful than tha Haoshoku.

    _______________________

    Better late than never:

    Quote Originally Posted by ukimix View Post
    If I'm not wrong, this is the major problem you have with the possibility to imbue haki in air. Let's suppose someone uses CoA to imbue haki in the air contained into a relativety big sphere around him, with him as its center. What could be the problem for a logia user that is fighting against such a guy? Is that guy invencible?
    No, but the opponent Logia user would lose his intangibility thus simply become a mere Paramecia-like - as haki imbued objects come into contact with the Logia users' real bodies. That's not less tough but leaves the Logia user with the same disadvantage Ace had to face against Blackbeard. To startle the opponent that way, Oda has two different "powers": 1.) the Haoshoku Luffy showed, and then 2.) the blood lust Zoro showed.

    And now the Busoshoku is the third power to put the Logia users in such a disadvantage?

    Quote Originally Posted by ukimix View Post
    The whole thing would depend on what else that guy can do besides the trick that he can imbue haki in air. So I wouldn't be afraid that such a power would exist in One Piece ;-)
    And that is why I say, that Haki imbued into air slashes doesn't make much sense either. Not even "the best swordsman of the world" was said to use haki air slashes, neither when Jozu blocked the one meant for Whitebeard, nor when Luffy evaded the one that cut off the ice mountain. But now Zoro comes up with something like a haki air slash that in such a precision actually even pales Usopp's sharpshooting skills?

    There's just too much skill development at once compared to Luffy.

    Quote Originally Posted by ukimix View Post
    Maybe you think that that posibility would make pointless the logia DF, but that's not the case. It would only increse the speed of the haki CoA user over the logia user. That's all. And this arc has shown that in a fight between a haki CoA user and logia user the speed and the power in the hits, are the key factor to the victory.
    But that has always been like that even before the "Haki age" when it came to find the natural weakness or to bring the logia user into physical contact with a piece of Kairoseki. That was no surprise.
    Last edited by hoeru; November 27, 2012 at 06:52 AM.

  11. #11
    Intl Translator 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity ukimix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Country
    Colombia
    Posts
    3,059
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Zoro' use of armament haki

    Quote Originally Posted by hoeru View Post
    ... And now the Busoshoku is the third power to put the Logia users in such a disadvantage?

    ...

    And that is why I say, that Haki imbued into air slashes doesn't make much sense either. Not even "the best swordsman of the world" was said to use haki air slashes, neither when Jozu blocked the one meant for Whitebeard, nor when Luffy evaded the one that cut off the ice mountain. But now Zoro comes up with something like a haki air slash that in such a precision actually even pales Usopp's sharpshooting skills?
    I suppose you see that your arguments has this form: "how so... a new power for Zoro? ... No way" and "a new power beyond what Mihawk is able to do?... No way" Those are not arguments about a hole plot or about something useless for the manga.. It is just that you dont want to beleieve that Zoro has that kind of power.

    I just have to say to all of it: YESSSS. Good for the story if Zoro has that kind of new power, and it is much better if it happens that he is the first pirate in the whole One Piece history able to imbue haki in air. Just the kind of development that the straw hats need for and that will take them to his final battles. ;-)

    ---------- Post added November 28, 2012 at 03:23 AM ---------- Previous post was November 27, 2012 at 09:12 PM ----------

    From the spoiler, it seems that what Vergo does in chapter 690 is also using CoA at a distance. The New World is scary, hoeru. ;-)

  12. #12
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member hoeru's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Country
    Mauritius
    Posts
    1,546
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Zoro' use of armament haki

    I'm not saying that there shouldn't be any new power from Zoro, nor that he's to surpass Mihawk, nor that Zoro shouldn't be able to combine Haki with his sword skills and so on. Heck, if Oda wants to pull this out - so be it.

    All I'm saying can be broken down to three thesis:
    1. "I don't believe it is able to imbue Haki into a non-solid object like air."
      And at this moment, all you've got is Monet's bleeding cheek which can be explained otherwise by canon facts such as: (2) and (3)
    2. "Logia users are non-intangible at some point when they are unprepared for being attacked."
      BTW: Tashigi was disarmed, Zoro said he would let Tashigi do as she pleasess without intervening, Monet tasted the arrogance of a logia user all so far have shown - and Monet thought he wouldn't attack a woman.
    3. "Having Kenbunshoku/Mantra being displayed as fighting skill in Skypiea to find out the right moment to attack an opponent, Zoro's minor air slash to Monet's cheek could be very well a simple haki-less strike to startle her."
      Just look how Satori used his Mantra against Luffy, Sanji and Usopp in the first half of the battle...

    All I want is you to show me that there's a glimpse of the prove beyond Monet's bleeding cheek that it's able to imbue Busoshoku Haki into air. One occurance can't create a "must" as there's other explanation for what happened in that moment.

    Sorry to be the Scully, dear Mulders.
    Last edited by hoeru; November 28, 2012 at 07:11 AM. Reason: maybe it's better to read that way... :/

  13. #13
    Intl Translator 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity ukimix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Country
    Colombia
    Posts
    3,059
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Zoro' use of armament haki

    But Scully, you need and argument to probe that it is not possible to imbue haki in air. You have none, as well as I have none to probe that it is possible to imbue haki into air. So it seems Oda has the final say.

  14. #14
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Country
    Turkey
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    386
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Zoro' use of armament haki

    sry to jump in to the discussion in the middle of it but.... i am gonna look at that scene in a different way. i think rather than thinking whether or not zoro used haki it would be much more productive to think monets powers. that monster attack is infact tangible as we could see from her skirmish with robin and marines bullet hits her in that condition. about blood i must have to say i am on tashigi kept her from becoming intagible by hugging her. otherwise she would have just taken her shoulder out and zoro just used the opponents downed guard since she thought she wont be cut by him. so idont think zoro used haki in that scene.

    robin destroyin her

    marine bullet hits

    so about imbuing air with haki; or slashes with haki for that matter i think it may not be done. cant say i have definitive proof but if BH could be used to imbue air we wouldnt need HH. i know seems more like an excuse but.. also if i remember correctly logia users ranged attacks have been defended and we know the admirals have haki. so it could be that BH can only be used within weapons that have contact with the body of the user and directly from the body but not with things like air or logia ranged attacks. otherwise it would be magic trick rather than willpower. thou as things stand with haki right now oda might just change everything....

  15. #15
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    wherever cookies can't get to me...(as if such a place existed...)
    Country
    Galactic Empire
    Posts
    18,362
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Zoro' use of armament haki

    I don't see any particular reason for it to be impossible for haki to be imbued into air. We already have confirmation that armor haki can be imbued to stuff and even maintains its power when applied on arrows. Its just a matter of haki traveling along with the path of the air blade or whatever in this case. When rayliegh showed his haki to luffy he even used it to push back that elephant thingy, perhaps what zoro does is a variation of that. Plotwise the manga would even require a swordsman to do this. Long range slashes are a significant part of the arsenal available to a swordsman as far as we have seen. Still, the attack would be virtually and literally useless without the strength of haki to back it up specially against a logia.

New Reply
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts