Final antagonist in Bleachverse ??

[Zehahaha]

5. He could KILL pre-hogyoku Aizen with Kidos ALONE, as Aizen himself stated.

Implying pre Hogyoku Aizen is a dumbass that would fall for that... As Urahara said it himself too
He's strong, but I don't even think that he's at Aizen level either... Well, I'm talking about pre Hogyoku Aizen ofc, the one who thinks of many plans, never underestimate his opponents and stuff, not the arrogant shit we ended up with

[dex]

Implying pre Hogyoku Aizen is a dumbass that would fall for that... As Urahara said it himself too
He's strong, but I don't even think that he's at Aizen level either... Well, I'm talking about pre Hogyoku Aizen ofc, the one who thinks of many plans, never underestimate his opponents and stuff, not the arrogant shit we ended up with

yes butterfly aizen was a dumbass... but with or without hougyoku aizen always felt that urahara is superior to him...he even admitted it openly...the only one he found real threat in soul society...and apart from zan powers (which we do not know) urahara has crazy intellect to develop amazing techs...with that wrist sealing tech he can even own yamaji (without making wonderweiss and cheating like aizen)... so we can say that if urahara gets serious he is at aizen level or maybe more...

[Jorge D. Dragon]

Duniak

1. We don't know about Urahara's bankai.
2. In hand-to-hand he was on par with Yoruichi.
3. His intellect is unmatched.
4. He can create his own attacks and kidos.
5. He could KILL pre-hogyoku Aizen with Kidos ALONE, as Aizen himself stated.

That makes him above... everyone in SS?

1. You say we don't know about Urahara's Bankai? Do you know about Aizen's Bankai? Or do you know about Yama's Bankai? Yama's Bankai alone seemed to be enough to destroy SS with all the Captains who were there and this Bankai now belongs who the guy who was actually able to take down base Yama who seemed to be stronger in base than base Aizen... So no way Urahara's Bankai would make that much of a differense.
2. So what? Yoruichi's fits aren't that impressive. She was a bit faster than Soifong and a bit faster than Byakuya, but the same Aizen made a fodder treatment of Soi Fong and many other Captains who seemed stronger than Yoruichi. Also Yoruichi isn't the best in hand-to-hand combat. The same Yama or Tessai seem to be way higher in that department.
3. Again... It's Shounen manga! Here intellect doesn't play that much of a role to be a desisive factor. Aizen was intelligent, but he was strong enough to be able to take down practically entire Gotei in Shikai-Bankai in just his base form... Also Urahara's intellect lies only in the field of inventions. Aizen seems to be better in terms of planning and tactics.
4. Well, Isshin seems to be able to do the same as well. The same way as Yama and Tessai is obviously better than Urahara in Kidou...
5. Well, Kubo stated himself that Shunsui could do the same thing Ichigo did against Hougioku Aizen with his Bankai, but it wasn't his role to do it, but Ichigo's. Does it make him fit to be the final villain? Also Aizen didn't want to dodge any Urahara's attack. He wanted to test his new form. He wouldn't have done it, when he was a normal Shinigami. Urahara himself stated it.

So it doesn't make Urahara strong... Not even close to high tier Captains. The same Urahara in his Shikai couldn't do anything against Base Ulquiorra, while Aizen could have taken entire Espada down by himself. His Reiatsu was so strong that he made Grimjaw fall on his knees infont of him... Compare the differense.

dex

well we all know that much...JB is in limelight...but if you read what i posted before, i was just trying to find reasons which can point at urahara being the main villian...ofc it has not been mentioned directly yet...but this is just a speculation...also its a shounen manga but then SS invasion arc also turned out like this...shounen manga does not mean that there cant be twists like these... till now even many people suspect that JB will not be the final antagonist...

Well, I agree that Juha Bach might not be the Final Villain. I just pointed my thoughts why Urahara can't be the one...

[Kay3795]

Duniak

1. You say we don't know about Urahara's Bankai? Do you know about Aizen's Bankai? Or do you know about Yama's Bankai? Yama's Bankai alone seemed to be enough to destroy SS with all the Captains who were there and this Bankai now belongs who the guy who was actually able to take down base Yama who seemed to be stronger in base than base Aizen... So no way Urahara's Bankai would make that much of a differense.
2. So what? Yoruichi's fits aren't that impressive. She was a bit faster than Soifong and a bit faster than Byakuya, but the same Aizen made a fodder treatment of Soi Fong and many other Captains who seemed stronger than Yoruichi. Also Yoruichi isn't the best in hand-to-hand combat. The same Yama or Tessai seem to be way higher in that department.
3. Again... It's Shounen manga! Here intellect doesn't play that much of a role to be a desisive factor. Aizen was intelligent, but he was strong enough to be able to take down practically entire Gotei in Shikai-Bankai in just his base form... Also Urahara's intellect lies only in the field of inventions. Aizen seems to be better in terms of planning and tactics.
4. Well, Isshin seems to be able to do the same as well. The same way as Yama and Tessai is obviously better than Urahara in Kidou...
5. Well, Kubo stated himself that Shunsui could do the same thing Ichigo did against Hougioku Aizen with his Bankai, but it wasn't his role to do it, but Ichigo's. Does it make him fit to be the final villain? Also Aizen didn't want to dodge any Urahara's attack. He wanted to test his new form. He wouldn't have done it, when he was a normal Shinigami. Urahara himself stated it.

So it doesn't make Urahara strong... Not even close to high tier Captains. The same Urahara in his Shikai couldn't do anything against Base Ulquiorra, while Aizen could have taken entire Espada down by himself. His Reiatsu was so strong that he made Grimjaw fall on his knees infont of him... Compare the differense.

dex

Well, I agree that Juha Bach might not be the Final Villain. I just pointed my thoughts why Urahara can't be the one...

Been very busy these past 3 days so I couldn't actually take part as I would have like too. But I will later.

But before that, I'd like to know where Kubo actually said such a thing about Shunsui being able to take on Aizen. IIRC he only mentioned how haxxed Shunsui bankai would be & he said it's so haxx people would think he's able to take on Aizen. He never actually said he could take him on.

Anyway regarding the actually topic of Urahara being so poweful. I've said it before & I'll say it again. We have absolutely no reason to believe he is actually above Byakuya's lvl.

(Anyway I'll back in 2 days if lucky 1 days time to further discuss)

[dex]

ill interrupt a lil :P

Duniak

1. You say we don't know about Urahara's Bankai? Do you know about Aizen's Bankai? Or do you know about Yama's Bankai? Yama's Bankai alone seemed to be enough to destroy SS with all the Captains who were there and this Bankai now belongs who the guy who was actually able to take down base Yama who seemed to be stronger in base than base Aizen... So no way Urahara's Bankai would make that much of a differense.

just bankai based no one can surpass yamaji (even haxx is a relatively small term for that)...but urahara's fearsomeness comes from his other abilities and creations ...eg. hougyoku...yamaji even with bankai got taken out 2 times...so bankai alone does not add to power levels...

3. Again... It's Shounen manga! Here intellect doesn't play that much of a role to be a desisive factor. Aizen was intelligent, but he was strong enough to be able to take down practically entire Gotei in Shikai-Bankai in just his base form... Also Urahara's intellect lies only in the field of inventions. Aizen seems to be better in terms of planning and tactics.

intellect does play a major role in bleach...ichigo got bankai in 3 days coz of urahara intellect...grew like crazy and defeated so many coz of hougyoku (which is urahara's intellect)...the whole aizen becoming overpowered was coz of urahara's intellect...about his planning abilities he perfectly owned aizen which was almost impossible to kill...and we just don't know much about urahara inspite of him being in limelight...this is the reason he is suspicious... also kubo said that this arc yoruichi-urahara history will be revealed...

4. Well, Isshin seems to be able to do the same as well. The same way as Yama and Tessai is obviously better than Urahara in Kidou...

well actually anyone cannot be the best in every field unless you have hougyoku (urahara invention)... if you got reiatsu to support you even your one third potential 90s kido will do some severe damage (aizen performing black coffin on komamura first time)

So it doesn't make Urahara strong... Not even close to high tier Captains. The same Urahara in his Shikai couldn't do anything against Base Ulquiorra, while Aizen could have taken entire Espada down by himself. His Reiatsu was so strong that he made Grimjaw fall on his knees infont of him... Compare the differense.

ofc aizen before revealing his true nature died (fake death)... zenith of urahara's power levels have never been pointed out...his whole character remains shady and unpredictable...aizen on the other hand became a arrogant blabbermouth after he left SS... urahara is dangerous coz of many things like his ability to keep his mouth shut (as teppei said "words can be dangerous" :P - toriko reference for those who don't know) , his intellect and inventions , his more than average base power ...there was a reason aizen till the end acknowledged urahara...

Well, I agree that Juha Bach might not be the Final Villain. I just pointed my thoughts why Urahara can't be the one...

ofc

[I]
Anyway regarding the actually topic of Urahara being so poweful. I've said it before & I'll say it again. We have absolutely no reason to believe he is actually above Byakuya's lvl.

byakuya was a small brat (literally) when urahara was a captain...he is definitely above byakuya...more of like shinji and other levels (if we consider that a genius like him grows just like other normal people...although i doubt it...imo)

[Jorge D. Dragon]

Kay3795

But before that, I'd like to know where Kubo actually said such a thing about Shunsui being able to take on Aizen. IIRC he only mentioned how haxxed Shunsui bankai would be & he said it's so haxx people would think he's able to take on Aizen. He never actually said he could take him on.

It was in those materials we've got during his hiatus before the Quincy Invasion Arc.

Anyway regarding the actually topic of Urahara being so poweful. I've said it before & I'll say it again. We have absolutely no reason to believe he is actually above Byakuya's lvl.

Agreed here. He never showed anything apart from intillect to put him above an average Captain. While Byakuya was reffered as the genius of his generation.

dex

byakuya was a small brat (literally) when urahara was a captain...he is definitely above byakuya...more of like shinji and other levels (if we consider that a genius like him grows just like other normal people...although i doubt it...imo)

Well, Byakuya was reffered as a genius of his generation and he seems to be way above in Shinigami skills than most of the current Captains, exept for the Senior Captains, but well they are at least 1000 years old.
Well, currently Urahara's fits aren't that impressive. His only fit is to barely being able to protect himself from Ichigo's Shikai in the begining of the manga and saying himself that he would have lost an arm if not for the Blood Shiled tech from Benihime that was also quite damaged, not even scratching base Ulquiorra in Shikai with pseudo-Getsuga attack and showing of against Hougioku Aizen who didn't even bother dodging or protecting himself in any way... So it can't prove in any way Urahara being stronger than Byakuya. Especially since Byakuya can use Bankai against Urahara... and we know that Byakuya's Bankai can actually damage Yami to some extent who was the strongest Espada. Also... I can't agree that what we've seen from Shinji would be enough to defeat Byakuya. His Shikai is inpractical in one-on-one fight, while his Mask won't compensate the differense in attacking power between him and Byakuya's Bankai. I absolutely don't get neither Shinji's nor Urahara's hype.
Also age doesn't automatically put you higher than the younger one. At least in this case.

[dex]

Kay3795
It was in those materials we've got during his hiatus before the Quincy Invasion Arc.

ohh thx for the info...

Agreed here. He never showed anything apart from intillect to put him above an average Captain. While Byakuya was reffered as the genius of his generation.

that is the most interesting thing here...inspite of there being so many prodigies and geniuses in SS (gin,byakuya,hitsugaya,kaien...) why was aizen ( a genius himself) was focused on urahara...the answer is simple...real geniuses are intelligent enough to hide their true potential

as for byakuya imo he is not that strong...he is noble and hyped...but there are people in SS who can own him...my opinion

also being intelligent = genius... a genius will learn things faster (coz he is intelligent) which some people will call prodigy and some intelligent and some genius...thus he/she will become stronger faster than others...

[Jorge D. Dragon]

dex

that is the most interesting thing here...inspite of there being so many prodigies and geniuses in SS (gin,byakuya,hitsugaya,kaien...) why was aizen ( a genius himself) was focused on urahara...the answer is simple...real geniuses are intelligent enough to hide their true potential

Well, this way we can deduce that the real big baddy is Hanatarou. He just looks weak, but his actual goal is to dominate the whole world. Being serious I don't think that Aizen was interested in Urahara as a Shinigami. He was only interested in him as an inventor who managed to make Hougioku. Aizen seeked power and Hougioku was perfect in order to make it faster. And again Urahara's intellect only lies in the field of inventing tools. Nothing more. He isn't a tactition like Aizen.

as for byakuya imo he is not that strong...he is noble and hyped...but there are people in SS who can own him...my opinion

I agree with you. Byakuya is hyped, maybe overhyped, but if he is overhyped, then I can't find a word to express how overhyped are Urahara and Shinji.

also being intelligent = genius... a genius will learn things faster (coz he is intelligent) which some people will call prodigy and some intelligent and some genius...thus he/she will become stronger faster than others...

There are different types of genius. But again, Urahara's intellect lies only in the field of inventing things, not in any other field.
Also Hitsugaya is called a genius. Is he an intelligent person? I would hardly say so.

[Hakuteiken]

that is the most interesting thing here...inspite of there being so many prodigies and geniuses in SS (gin,byakuya,hitsugaya,kaien...) why was aizen ( a genius himself) was focused on urahara...the answer is simple...real geniuses are intelligent enough to hide their true potential

as for byakuya imo he is not that strong...he is noble and hyped...but there are people in SS who can own him...my opinion

Because neither of those mentioned were a threat to Aizen in his plot. Gin and Byakuya were little kids. Hands down, Kaien was a VC, but you can say he was hardly the great observant type of guy Urahara is. I suppose he wasn't that much different from Kuukaku. A little short-tempered, a little laid-back.

There are people who can own Byakuya, but that doesn't take his accolades away. Ukitake and Kaien mentioned him in their conversation regarding the geniuses, and he was ranked slightly behind Gin, as far as I can remember.
Hype is another element to boost it, too, of course

[dex]

dex

Well, this way we can deduce that the real big baddy is Hanatarou. He just looks weak, but his actual goal is to dominate the whole world. Being serious I don't think that Aizen was interested in Urahara as a Shinigami. He was only interested in him as an inventor who managed to make Hougioku. Aizen seeked power and Hougioku was perfect in order to make it faster. And again Urahara's intellect only lies in the field of inventing tools. Nothing more. He isn't a tactition like Aizen.

well we as readers can say these things (coz we look at the stroy with all the aspects)...but imagine yourself in bleach world with limited knowledge as a character...we look at 4 eyed aizen(when he was a good guy) and we can hardly think that this guy is very powerful and maybe plotting against SS...but one day bam he does it and we are like wtf ? :P now we never expected that a guy living in shadows was so powerful (like he cancelled tessai kido without chant and tessai was like wtf ? owned !! )...

just like this in the real world also we never know who got how much potential until we see it...so if someone hides his/her real potential then we can never know what level that person has... we can say all these things about aizen coz he has shown his true potential to us...but urahara has not shown much to us except for his invention skills... but if someday he pulls out the mask and shows his plot in screwing around with aizen and ichigo and isshin and whole SS then we will be like wow genius...

my speculation is based entirely on this fact that we do not know much about urahara to judge him...only thing we know till now is that whole first saga of bleach was coz of him (result of his actions) ,main protagonist in the story is partially his invention's result and the guy's got seriously crazy brain to develop tools of war (hougyoku) which can very well make you more haxxed than the most haxxed abilities...more than enough to form a rough opinion about him...imo purely this along with his shady character makes me think he can be upto something ...but that is another of my opinions

I agree with you. Byakuya is hyped, maybe overhyped, but if he is overhyped, then I can't find a word to express how overhyped are Urahara and Shinji.

byakuya's hyped version has been shattered to pieces recently...shinji's was shattered by normal aizen...urahara's still stands ( he fought cocoon aizen who crossed over to transcedental boundary)

There are different types of genius. But again, Urahara's intellect lies only in the field of inventing things, not in any other field.
Also Hitsugaya is called a genius. Is he an intelligent person? I would hardly say so.

well genius like hitsugaya will learn bankai in say few months...bigger genius like sasakibe will learn it in 1 month...haxx genius like urahara in 3 days intelligence has many forms in this world ...all depends in that what kind of form is most useful

Because neither of those mentioned were a threat to Aizen in his plot. Gin and Byakuya were little kids. Hands down, Kaien was a VC, but you can say he was hardly the great observant type of guy Urahara is. I suppose he wasn't that much different from Kuukaku. A little short-tempered, a little laid-back.

agreed...but then that is where urahara stands and we can't take away his credits for that...

There are people who can own Byakuya, but that doesn't take his accolades away. Ukitake and Kaien mentioned him in their conversation regarding the geniuses, and he was ranked slightly behind Gin, as far as I can remember.
Hype is another element to boost it, too, of course

ofc we cant take away his feats...but once brushed with a higher sense of powers the relative standing of byakuya does fall by a significant amount...

[Hakuteiken]

byakuya's hyped version has been shattered to pieces recently...shinji's was shattered by normal aizen...urahara's still stands ( he fought cocoon aizen who crossed over to transcedental boundary)

He is the victim of this arc, losing to his own Bankai. Like Hitsugaya in a way, who made his way down from his genius status with fights against Aizen.
To be fair for every character, I don't take battle instances as a strict measurement line. Even in HM, had they switched opponents, both Byakuya and Kenpachi would probably be owned by Espada, so, in a way, they are either protected by the story development, or victimized by it (=

well genius like hitsugaya will learn bankai in say few months...bigger genius like sasakibe will learn it in 1 month...haxx genius like urahara in 3 days intelligence has many forms in this world ...all depends in that what kind of form is most useful

I think Urahara's real intelligence lies within the fact that he managed to develop that training. Going through it to achieve Bankai is, for sure, a great feat, but developing it is an entirely different issue.

agreed...but then that is where urahara stands and we can't take away his credits for that...

Can't really argue. That's true.

ofc we cant take away his feats...but once brushed with a higher sense of powers the relative standing of byakuya does fall by a significant amount...

Since he isn't a deity, and younger than every other captain except Hitsugaya, I suppose this is natural. If he was overpowering seniors who are 1000+ years old, then that would signal a difference. Two people have broken that hierarchy; the protagonist Ichigo and the antagonist Aizen (=

[Torran]

Here's my prediction, no, my guarantee of who is going to be the final antagonist:

As if what Aizen said wasn't suggestive enough.

[Zehahaha]

Kay3795

It was in those materials we've got during his hiatus before the Quincy Invasion Arc.


Agreed here. He never showed anything apart from intillect to put him above an average Captain. While Byakuya was reffered as the genius of his generation.

Wrong, that was Gin who was reffered as a genius, and Hitsugaya, never Byakuya was mentioned to be that " genius "

[cracker]

Actually Byakuya was mentioned like that in some regard, that he was gifted. I think it was when they were referring to his nobility or something along lines. I'd go check but I'm on my phone... Lol too tedious.

@ Torran

I'd definitely consider it a possible and the initial glimpse of him/it was more menacing than anything else. But I'm holding out for JuhaBach

[Zehahaha]

Actually Byakuya was mentioned like that in some regard, that he was gifted. I think it was when they were referring to his nobility or something along lines. I'd go check but I'm on my phone... Lol too tedious.

@ Torran

I'd definitely consider it a possible and the initial glimpse of him/it was more menacing than anything else. But I'm holding out for JuhaBach

Byakuya was mentioned to be as that " brat " by Kaien during TBTP arc, Ukitake never mentioned Byakuya as being genius, instead he said that there's a kid at the same age as Ginrei grandson who graduated from the academy, and it took him just one year (which suprised Kaien too)