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Translations: Gintama 507 (2)
Plenty of stuff in POT is vaguely on stretching science to its limits and then violate it. For example Rai is said to involve moving at the speed of light, which is impossible for massive objects but apparently Sanada can do it no problem. Quantum mechanics deal with subatomic particles and obviously a ball is way too massive to observe such effects but there's no reason why POT can't violent the laws of physics like it always does. It's in the same sense that time travel is not theoractically impossible (no self respecting scientist would say it absolutely cannot be done), it's just there doesn't seem to be an actual way to do it. POT is like this too.
If you say X-ball is just everything sped up X times, you might be able to see the characters themselves moving in a blur. That's possible. But the ball itself, traveling at X times speed, would be way beyond the ability of your average character to see. Remember some of these spectators can genuinely be mistaken for normal human beings, and if you watch the real life pros on TV (who are considerably weaker than anyone in POT), on a 'big serve' guy if you blink at the wrong time you can definitely miss their serves because it's that fast (as a spectator). And now we speed it up 5 to 10 times, how is an average spectator supposed to see this at all? In such a scenario you can see Oni swing his racket 10 times but you sure would have no idea where the ball is, let alone being able to discern that there are 10 balls. If you have that kind of vision, you'd be able to see through a Mach Serve no problem, something the vast majority of MSer cannot do!
---------- Post added at 10:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:04 PM ----------
If it's just 'X times faster', way back when Sanada played Ryoma, he used Fuu and the shot was too fast for the average spectator to see, so we'll assume Fuu is pretty darn fast. Sanada then revealed the real Fuu is 3 times as fast compared to what we first thought was Fuu. Does that mean back then Sanada is already at at least 3-ball level? There's a clear implication that X-ball techs can only be returned by the same level X-ball tech, and yet Fuu certainly isn't even anything really noteworthy (Tezuka returned it easily, Ryoma did it with some effort). Sure, you can say these are new concepts, but the point is that Fuu, which is at least 3 times faster than 'fast' back in POT, isn't even anything noteworthy back in POT. I really don't see how 5-10 times the speed in NPOT suddenly becomes the go-to move of a bunch of guys who are unfathomably stronger than the guys in POT.
---------- Post added at 10:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:19 PM ----------
By the way, did you know for power shots to even make sense in POT, a power shot user must be able to increase the mass of the ball as he hits the ball? Kinetic energy is mv^2, and yet power shots are shown to be perfectly normal speed shots while doing immense damage. Since v is not particularly high for a power shot, the only way it can do so much damage is if m increased. That's just as crazy as observing quantum mechanics effects on massive objects, and yet nobody even questions why power shots work. I'm not saying the 10 ball is actually because quantum mechanics effects occur on balls, but it's an explanation of why you must hit all X balls despite only having one real ball to return it, and it's no more implausible than power shots increasing the mass of the ball itself which everyone just accepts as true.
Last edited by Phantron; December 02, 2012 at 10:22 PM.
Says Rai is at the speed of light. Here's another comment by Yukimura:
Again says light speed.
Are you saying Sanada was just making stuff up when he says he can increase his speed to 3 times of what people thought was Fuu (which is already pretty darn fast)? Especially when the same guy later revealed he can move at light speed?
Frankly in a series that features stuff like ZSS it's clear the laws of physics goes out of the window. In fact, they break the laws of physics rather casually. Just look at what Yukimura is saying: moving at the speed of light exceeds the limit of human body! Talk about an understatement and yet they do this everywhere in POT.
Last edited by Phantron; December 02, 2012 at 10:52 PM.
I'm gonna give my explanation:
This is PoT, don't ask.
I hope you liked it.
Brandnewkid is more on track than Phantron. I'll explain what is actually going on, which is what I think Brandnewkid is trying to say as well. I couldn't do an in depth explanation earlier, but I can now, so here goes:
The way they are rallying what appears to be ten balls, whilst hitting only one, is quite simple to explain. Think of it like this:
Oni hits 1 ball
Kintarou hits 1 ball
If you take the speed by which the ball travels and multiply it by 2, you will see what looks like 2 balls, instead of 1. However, this is an afterglow or a mirror image. What once took 1 second for the ball to go from Oni's racquet to Kintarou's racquet now takes .5 seconds, which makes the ball move back and forth twice as fast (which would make your head move back and forth twice as fast, trying to follow the ball's trail).
Oni's hitting 10 balls at the same time is not like Tachibana's Abare Dama. Abare Dama gives off an illusion of more than one ball due to the vibration of the impact. It has nothing to do with Tachibana being able to rally at speeds higher than normal. Oni is literally rallying with Kintarou at x10 the speed of a normal rally, which is why it appears to be 10 balls. It's not that Oni swings 10 times when 10 balls are on his side of the court followed by Kintarou swinging 10 times to hit those 10 balls. It is always 1 ball. Oni swings 1 time as 1 ball in on his side of the court...repeat process 10 times within the time frame it takes to hit 1 ball back at normal speed.
Let's say it takes 10 seconds at normal speed for Kintarou to hit the ball to Oni, and for Oni to hit it back (I know it is slow, but it's for illustration purposes). That would mean 10-ball status is doing the same process in 1 second instead of 10 seconds, allowing you to do that process 10 times within the time frame of your previous rally.
This is why it is irrelevant if they use 10 balls or 1 ball, because you'll be able to return it either way. If you can hit 10 balls at the speed by which you hit 1 ball, you have already multiplied your rally speed by 10.
Last edited by Fayte; December 02, 2012 at 11:47 PM.
The problem with the argument of X-ball being X times faster is that first, increasing speed isn't even very impressive in a series where people can go at the speed of light. Fuu is 3 times faster than 'fast' and it's not even a noteworthy tech on the high end. Second, increasing your shot speed by this amount makes the ball impossible to see, as we can assume even 5X normal speed is significantly faster than say, Mach Serve. In POT a very fast shot like Mach Serve cannot be seen by a low tier character, in a surprisingly nod to reality (good luck trying to see a serve from a pro player). It doesn't leave after images or whatever. It's simply invisible to one with weak vision power, and yet every fodder character in there was able to see the 5-10 balls.
I just have a hard time seeing speed being a trump card in a series that tosses out light speed so casually.
This isn't physics. POT's treatment of extremely fast shots is that they're invisible to people whose vision level is below a certain threshold. For example, most MSers cannot see Mach Serve because it's too fast. The TnK serve is invisible to everyone and requires the aid of machinery to see. That said I don't think even TnK serve is supposed to be ten times as fast as a normal rally, so if X-ball is simply a really fast shot then its speed is clearly past the threshold that can be seen by lesser players, and yet everyone can see the ten balls.
POT also has a history of trivalizing speed shots. Sanada used Fuu, which is said to be really fast, and then increased his speed to 3 times as fast as 'really fast'. It took Ryoma something like 2 games to figure out how to counter it. Shiraishi was wearing a golden armguard, and after he took it off his serve is much faster, and we're reminded that since gold is heavier than most metals the increase is even greater than the usual 'take off heavy weight' deal. Two cannon fodders returned his 'really fast serve' after two games and can accurately aim at Kirihara's face on the return. We can see the X-ball is pretty much the go-to move of the top tier characters and it's hard to imagine just 'hitting the ball really fast' can possibly be the trump card in a series that has always treated 'hitting the ball really fast' as at best a distraction. Certainly there are far more players who find success by 'hitting the ball really hard' as opposed to 'hitting hte ball really fast'.
I don't see how Brandnewkids explain make sense either, though. The ball is hit 10 at Oni, someone talked for couple of second, and 10 ball at Kintarou either. There's 10 balls flying at Kintarou, and he did not start to hit before 10 balls fly at him. Otherwise, the counting down of the ball that Kintarou hit wouldn't have make sense. Especially at 9 ball.
It's like, oh, 8 ball is Kintarou limit, but he hit 9 ball back to Oni so that Oni can do 10 balls tech. There's already 10 flying at him.
Ken, no explanation is going to be without questions. Konomi really doesn't know what he's doing. No matter how you explain it, it will not make sense. I mean look at Phantron's posts. Even he doesn't know what the hell he's talking about. The best explanation is "Konomi is on drugs."