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Dust Eater is pretty damn offensive, if you look at Deneve she has somewhat powerful attacks but not a crazy strong offensive technique. Neither did Galatea. One of Gala's abilities was when she released yoki, she grew a lot stronger proportionally than other warriors (I think). But she also didn't have a specific offensive sword move. So, I guess Cass probably was offensive then, but this violates speculation on offensive/defensive ABs. In the Pieta chapter, Helen says "you were an offensive type, right?" to Rigardo to mean that he couldn't regen his arm in any meaningful time for it to matter during that battle. Also, Riful remarked on how slow Duff is to regenerate in Witch's Maw (and we KNOW Duff was offensive lol).
Oop, I was wrong about Isley. He was indeed regen'ing his arm during the AEs, just not fast enough but still pretty fast compared to a simple AB. Also I guess you could say that since he was so worn and damaged that this only made it even slower. An actual AO can probably have both great regen abilities and offensive moves, something that just a AB cannot mix n' match. At least this is my theory.
Last edited by fluorideconspiracy; December 30, 2012 at 12:41 PM.
3-Miria's awakening mirage = Hysteria's Elegance
4-Miria's awakening mirage > her old mirage
5-Hysteria's Elegance > Riagrdo's speed.
but as for Clare's or Hysteria's technique to be the superior, I suppose we have to compare it to Miria's when she go QoB mode in the future.
Although we seem to think that, Yagi every once in a while mentions something about physics or logic that tells us that he is one the same track (maybe he lost it or it is us that lost the ability to super think about the matter like the old days!!)..Quote:
The idea lies here.. To hit here, else everything would be pointless and she will claim victorious. And BTW she has some powers like when she cut Deneve, Nike, Dietrich and the rest on her way. That must've count for something.Quote:
Maybe faster in the half awakened form but for his full form, only a very few were able to dodge or at least tried to block (Luciella's case but the arrows were much stronger than what she expected). But still this tells us that they might have a chance to dodge or at least block them because as I said his use to them seems to be limited(a disadvantage that turns the tables against Hysteria).Quote:
Sorry for the misunderstanding, because what I meant was that what I quoted was about who was faster not your discussion about Miria and Rigadro.Quote:
Well in Hysteria's case, dodging or being faster doesn't matter, because all she wants is to evade this one attack (due to the fact he doesn't use it more than once or twice with homing ability) so if she survives that undamaged he is in a tough position, because she is faster and as long she is not hit she has the upper hand.. A super tricky battle IMO.Quote:
If you would read my earlier posts to which links I've provided you would have found the answers there. I've presented several options which would allow Isley to at least escape from AEs (including the sea one). I think the best idea was the one with a trap set up by Isley (the simplest being a masked hole). I've also pointed out that MiB couldn't input all of the commands, only simple ones, hence AEs had to go back each time and learn from their mistakes. To every scenario MiB would come up with I could come up with a counter which they wouldn't have thought of and Isley was supposed to be smarter than average Joe.Originally Posted by MalakTawus
Anyway, going back to your question, it doesn't matter they would wait on him. You need to seriously think all of this through because with each post you make there are more holes in your reasoning. You admitted yourself that Isley is super fast (faster than even Rigaldo) so how the heck could AEs keep up with him? All he would have to do would be to run to the town, instantly eat some people + take a couple with him for later, go back to the sea/cave and he could wait like this for years.
In short, there are dozens of possible methods of defeating AEs having Isley's abilities and power and even more that would allow him to escape only.
You crack me up Malak . I've answered this already but I'll make it explicit: if they did that, Isley could live for a very long time without being bothered by them at all. He could also go to the HQ and fight Alicia and Beth in MiB's dungeons without the fear of being bothered by AEs (if he would be smart enough to realize that sooner or later they would produce another Alicia and Beth or so many AEs that he would be taken down by sheer numbers). But if he thought about it a bit further he would be able to force MiB's hand by killing enough people. Because of Riful Alicia wouldn't be dispatched and they would have to deal with him to not be destroyed (without humans they wouldn't be able to create Claymores and Claymores don't live too long). Heck, if MiB were this retarded he could go into a house and watch at the creatures that would attack in open space only :].Quote:
If the above isn't enough read:
I've provided these links earlier but you didn't even bother to read them.
Since he used this ability practically at the start of their fight I seriously doubt that it required much of his power but of course I can't prove it. But even if what you say is true it would still mean his victory, even if he would become exhausted. Although I seriously doubt that he wouldn't be able to release 12 of these arrows with ease (and there were 11 AE IIRC).
---------- Post added at 09:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:57 PM ----------
Last edited by Goral; December 30, 2012 at 03:22 PM. Reason: repgrasing and clarifying
Not to give Yagi credit for this (yet), but it's possible that Cass's form has a strategy of having much higher hit points on the body, much more mass to the body to destroy to reach real vital areas, much higher regen rate, and a high spawn rate of tentacles. Cass could be like a "Pin Cushion of Death" in this way. The only thing we're missing now is for her to actually make some use of her high hit points and do something in the next chapter that lets us know that she's a real AO.
The thing about Hysteria is that her body was optimized for pure, raw speed. Undoubtedly her yoki was that of an Abyssal One, but she sacrificed everything for speed. She didn't even have some goddamn arms!
Now, she can blitz warriors, but since AOs (who we are comparing her to) are themselves extremely fast, they will at the very least be able to react to her. Miria, as stated by Dr. D. (YMMV), was the only one there who could follow Hysteria's movements. It stands to reason that an AO should be able to do better.
Since she has no long range attacks, so she needs to hit and run. Which brings her in range of her opponent. The only advantage she has, speed, is no longer truly an advantage since she's dealing with people in her class. Those people, on the other hand, have advantages in pretty much every other category.
In normal cases I would be on your side but here is something that sounds strange even to me, because he could release another set just before that AF cut his arm. And if it was me I wouldn't stop releasing them, but why did he release only one set or two with much interval between them (Luciella's case) if not for having a limit for using this technique (like I said maybe the homing thing takes from his consciousness or something).Quote:
And as for Roxanne, I have to say that her battle actually was cut by Yagi and even when she lost her arm, I suppose it happened because she mistook her speed as she never expected her to be this fast (more or less Isley's speed if not close to Hysteria especially in DE mode). Even the ABs who observed the fight one of them got eaten (QS AB) which means that even the speed of a single digit AB is still not enough to evade her attacks!
I totally agree with your post. Even with her powers, Hysteria is still limited by the sacrifices she made to be the fastest which if she fought Luciella, she would be dead the minute she attacks, unless her piercing attack is stronger than what we think it is, because it was only demonstrated against warriors and nothing hard and tough like Dauf's skin or at least hard rocks.Quote:
---------- Post added at 12:12 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:10 AM ----------
For me, I don't she needs to show us anything more than this as a proof that she is an AO. For her to look at this army of 7 warriors and 6 ABs who are all single digits as nothing but garbage means she is a true demon!Quote:
I agree, but it's not what i was saying,lol.Quote:
I was simply saying that just because in the past someone was able to catch one of his arrows, it doesn't mean that that opponent was necessarily fast (obviously i mean fast in moving their whole body).
Little problem is that you missed the part where Isley says that he almost didn't eat people anymore.Ops...Quote:
.....and yes of course the AFs waiting for you don't matter at all and maybe you also think that the AFs that are waiting for you would let you go to town to eat without attacking, right? Yes, yes, great plan indeed,lol.
And what do you think could happen when the humans understand this super-easy-to-notice-pattern and decide to leave the towns near the sea to escape near the central regions??? You think that people will remain there as your food like complete idiots??? Please.....
In case you haven't noticed even Miria is barely able to follow and attack one AFs at the same time, and those AFs are only babies. And you think that just because Isley is fast he should be able to stop 6 AFs from escaping in different directions??? Yeah, keep dreaming.Quote:
Your big plan is weak as hell 'cause you understimate the AFs way too much.
Thinking about it,not even Riful was able to stop the 4 ghosts, and she not only was also very fast, but her attacks were also A LOT better to hit multiple targets.....
Yeah, the problem is that if Isley would have done as your "great" plan suggested, he would have died way before than what he did,lol.Quote:
Great plan indeed, Gooral.
This is also another 100% USELESS consideration.Quote:
Yes, it's true that he could have done as you say (and he could have won too,i'm not denying this), but this can't be considered an inconsistency in his character (what you are saying and that i'm contesting, the real HEART of this discussion) since this is something moronic that he did from the very beginning!!!!!!!
It's not that he changed midway, he always did this mistake, like all the other abyssals btw.
Not attacking the orgainization was stupid? Yes
It shows an inconsistency in Isley? NO.
If the abyssals never attacked the org is probably because deep down they feared the org. Right or wrong doesn't matter, they chose to not attack 'cause they didn't know the org's strenght or because they moronically did't care at all about the org since they felt untouchable.
In any way, this at best shows that even Isley has done mistakes in his strategy since the very beginning even if he wasn't stupid.
A few points taken from so your old posts (so you can't say i didn't read them, when instead i did):
Really a great idea Gooral, and what if instead there was a trap ready for him?Quote:
Also do you think that the org decided to send the AFs against him without be ready in the eventuality that he decided to attack them?
Than you REALLY are naive, it's freaking obvious that at that point Ali and Beth were already complete.
Ok that sometimes the Mibs are morons, but attacking the org hoping that even this time the mibs will act like morons, well, that's actually 100 times more idiotic than the mibs,lol.
LOL, another absurd idea.Quote:
Think about it, Gooral.
If Riful came to know about the situation Isley was in, instead of making an alliance with him she could have used the situation in her favour betraying Isley and killing him.
Sorry, but what you suggest here is WAY TOO DANGEROUS.
You feel the need to complain about Isley's decisions and then you come up with a suggestion like this???? Priceless.....
And anyway, just a single one of your suggestion failing (this one for sure, for example) would automatically deny you the right to complain about Isley's decision, since you yourself proved that you could have done a stupid move like trying an alliance with Riful,lol.
Sure, let's wait while i build the boat.Quote:
Hey, no cheating! You can't attack me! I have the fingers crossed!!!
....and even if he let someone else built a boat while he buy time escaping, even if he really can save himself that way, then how the hell can he return to Raki and Prissy???
Saving himself that way is NOT what he wanted, it would be meaningless for him.
As soon as they start escaping, they don't stop anyway even if Isley doesn't follow them......Quote:
I could simply repeat what Cyclone said, but i'll add something different: HOPE.Quote:
Hope that something could have changed......and the funny thing is that things would have REALLY changed if he survived a bit more ('cause the whole destroyer thing plus Priscilla awakening could have changed drastically the whole scenario).
As you can see, surrender would have been the most idiotic idea he could have done, what he did would have actually worked if he was just a little bit more lucky....but lady luck surely wasn't on his side since he even found Helen and Deneve in the worst possible moment,lol.
I could go on, but i guess my point is quite clear: even you suggested very discutible plans (the most crazy is no doubt the alliance with Riful) and since i don't think you consider yourself stupid, than it's possible that even Isley didn't chose a perfect plan (even if i'm pretty sure that in 3 years he obviously must have tried something) even if he was not a stupid character, so it's plain wrong to say that his character had an inconsistency-problem.....especially since, like i said, it's not that he didn't make mistakes before (like the choice to not destroy the org when he could).
---------- Post added December 31, 2012 at 12:24 AM ---------- Previous post was December 30, 2012 at 11:55 PM ----------
There is no contradictory information at all, Roxy simply lost her mind like an idiot and made a full frontal attack against an opponent that was clearly too strong for her.
Even Gala and Miria if started attacking losing their minds wouldn't have obtained great results,and the same is valid for the ABs that are now attacking Cassy infact, not only they are NOT doing a single attack (but a team attack) like Roxy did, but they also are NOT attacking in a stupid way while losing their mind.
Last edited by MalakTawus; December 30, 2012 at 06:17 PM.
Well for all I know even it Octavia can hit with her whip hand at casandra she can't even make her look like an pain or cut it so it doesn't look stronger to me since can't cut it. and Priscilla she only need a flash of Teresa face to feel fear and become crazy for being able to beat her opponents.
@littleangel and MalakTawus: Indeed, Hysteria's statement which I used to justify No. 2 seems to indicate that Elegance > Old Phantom, and that Miria's statement was a mere supposition, i.e. an "if" statement, and not an actual judgment of equality based on observable velocities. I've argued this in the past in AS, but more people agreed that Miria's statement was an absolute judgment.
@Goral: Oh, you meant the statement based on Roxanne as a claymore. Fair point, and I do agree that her performance against an awakened Cassandra seemed lackluster compared to Clare's. Still, we must consider a few things.
Roxanne was Cassandra's ultimate object of revenge, and was as focused as can be against the former. Clare, some may argue, fought Cassandra while the latter was "a little out of it." Of course, we can't be sure unless Clare were to fight Cassandra one-on-one with Priscilla's mind control out of the picture. Also, some have expressed disappointment in Roxanne for having her left arm bitten off on Cassandra's first strike, whereas Clare got out of the fray damage-free. Roxanne was laughing her head off when Cassandra struck, and was possibly a little lost in her maniacal laughter. She had demonstrated superb agility against the twins; enough, I am quite certain, to have evaded that blow had she been in the right frame of mind. Now, when she furiously engaged Cassandra, she was already missing an arm, so that's already a handicap on her part. Finally, the entire battle wasn't shown. She may very well have done a bit of damage (which Cassandra regenerated instantly) before falling in front of Miria as a quadruple amputee.
These are all suppositions, I know. The illustrations seems to indicate that Clare >>> Roxanne based on raw performance. These are just little thought tidbits for your pondering pleasure...
I don't blame Isley for this, because if he attacked the Organization, it simply means death by Riful!!! Even without Riful, Just a couple of years ago, Teresa was in charge in protecting the Organization and only a fool would go that way against Teresa (she took Rosemary(An AO) in a hit!!!!!), so I don't think it was wise. And even before that it was Rosemary+Teresa, Hysteria+Rosemary+Teresa! So all AOs were doomed like for more than 20 years minimum! And even without Alicia, an entire generation could accomplish much with its top 5 because we have seen Ophelia (N.4) and she able to hunt a single digit AB just by her self so just imagine what can an entire generation accomplish.. Not to forget about what I wrote about that Riful was waiting for a chance to get him weakened even for a bit so she could claim victorious with ease!Quote:
I agree with Malak on what he wrote but I will add this: Riful knew what kind of man Isley was, and he was about killing all ABs! And what is she if not an AB, so for her survival his death is a must!Quote:
@Fermat, I totally agree with you, because Miria assumed that if their speed was the same she still beats her on terms of accuracy but the truth is that neither the speed nor the accuracy is the same so she had to use a stronger and faster technique to at least reach a level of having a chance against her.
Your reasoning is astounding. I could make this dicussion really short but for the fun of it I'll elaborate and comment your "reasoning". First things first, here's an argument that will instantly show how wrong you are.
Everything you've mentioned in your reply to me shows I'm right and that plot in Claymore is inconsistent. Actually I've brought this argument up already but even though you read my posts you couldn't comprehend them. If AEs were as powerful and intelligent as you think they were then MiB should be invincible. All they would have to do is to make army of zombies (read: mini-Priscillas) that can regenerate instantly and that's it. No one would be able to stop them. Someone could say: oh, but they need AB flesh to do that. Yeah, sure, bu what stops them from making AB by themselves just like Riful was doing? It's even more apparent now that we know they've had a freaking factory of ABs. But for some reason instead of producing soldiers that could be programmed as they wanted (according to you) and that even Isley was no match for (according to you) they still preferred Claymores who rebelled or Alicia and Beth which had a very weak point. Not to mention that somehow Alicia and Riful could obliterate them instantly without any problems but Isley couldn't?
And I "almost" don't argue with you. Firstly, the translation I see says "During that time, watching Raki mature with Priscilla by his side I actually found myself becoming contented with nothing more than the bare minimum of meals." The thing is, he says it in the past tense so we don't know whether he actually stuck with it (especially since as he said himself he didn't want to die). Most importantly though, a bare minimum would change if he was exhausted. Not to mention that he didn't have any objections against killing Helen and Deneve for no reason (besides the fact he suspected they were Claymores who wouldn't be able to do anything against him, and since they were cloaked he couldn't be sure about that, there was a chance he might have killed innocent people). What's more, because of his actions people still died and villages were being destroyed. In short, you fail.
As I've said, he's faster than Rigaldo, AEs are much slower. Enough said (I would think but since I'm talking to you I need to explain everything *sigh*). They wouldn't be fast enough to attack him. Notice that they could injure only the weakest Claymores (or at best everyone except single digits since even Rachel and Nina were unharmed). So Isley should be untouchable. Even if by some chance some of them would latch on to him, before they could do significant damage he would reach his destination and recuperate and gather supplies. If he had quite a distance to travel before him, after some time, once he would be far enough he could throw them off and kill them. Simple as that.
As for humans noticing this obvious pattern, firstly they live on a freaking island so he would have a very large area to choose from and it would take a lot of time before all villages would be destroyed. Secondly news do not travel fast in Claymore world and the fastest way of communicating available to them would be by horse (since we haven't even once seen pigeons or ravens it's doubtful they would use them for communications). But I don't see why people of the village that was attacked would try and communicate with others about it. If the villagers of that other village would believe them it would mean they would have a competition (and if they would not believe them they would be also killed). There are only so many people that another village (located more in the center) can absorb (and they surely wouldn't want villagers to come to their village and bring monster/disease with them). Also, people do not abandon their houses easily and if Isley was eating only the "bare minimum" it would take time before they would see that it might be their last option. Hence people still lived in the north despite the fact it was overrun with ABs. In any case Isley would still buy himself a lot of time.
And when all villages would be wiped out he could change his location to a cave/top of the mountain/ravine or some other location that would give him the advantage.
Anyway, this option is only a temporary measure as I've said but it would still be much better than dying. This applies to every option I've presented (well in some cases, like attacking HQ it would be no worse than doing nothing, i.e. what Isley did).
As for the rest, I don't have time nor will currently to reply to you. Maybe I'll do it later. Not that it will change much since my single argument proves I'm right.
BTW, I predicted the existence of Raftela almost 4 years ago ;P:
Borg zombies make sense? If somehow zombies are made so they can communicate with each other and share experiences then MiB are one step from probing minds of others (at least the ones that have youki)
---------- Post added at 09:35 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:26 AM ----------
Yeah, we can find excuses but this doesn't change the fact that Yagi gives us too much of contradictory information. And BTW, Clare was attacked from all sides by many heads and she also wasn't exactly expecting this but somehow she dealt with it easily.
Last edited by Goral; December 31, 2012 at 04:01 AM. Reason: Added a few things
I think it's an unwritten rule that all #1s are offensive types. I'm not even convinced by some speculation that Roxanne was defensive but we'll never know for certain without another databook.Quote: