Urahara...as bad as Aizen?

[devstauk]

The official explanation was that Urahara made the Hogyoku to transcend Human and Shinigami in order to save the lives of the ex shinigamis who were hollofied by Aizen..was it not?

I always thought Urahara made the original

i could be wrong though

[kkck]

Well, about the orb, the facts do not quite add up IMO.

The first chronological sight of an orb prototype was when gin saw aizen feeding souls to his pre-orb thingy.
http://www.mangapanda.com/94-56329-1...apter-415.html

Aizen mentions that he fed thousands of souls to the orb in order to complete it but it was still not enough. Then he mentions that to complete it he fed urahara's version of the orb to his own and then it was completed.
http://www.mangapanda.com/94-56757-8...apter-416.html
http://www.mangapanda.com/94-56757-9...apter-416.html

Now, all of this does not quite add up at all. The reason urahara was creating the orb to begin with apparently was to save people from disintegrating.
http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...7-page-19.html

The scenario presented to us is that urahara in response to the disappearance of souls investigated and created the orb to further hollowification. Is this consistent? From gin's flashback it seems like aizen was working on hollowification well over 10 years at least. Are we to believe that in between the time urahara learned from mayuri and hirako about the disappearances he managed to create a prototype? Its quite fast if we compare it with what aizen did. I think urahara was being purposely misleading there. His answer to the disappearances was indeed hollowification however from that chapter it seemed like he had been researching the orb long before the disappearances. Why was he researching the orb to begin with?

Another thing that perhaps is worth a mention in this image:
http://www.mangapanda.com/94-56757-9...apter-416.html
Aizen has his captain haori while he speaks about feeding his own orb to urahara's. If he was already captain by the time this happened then it means this was a relatively recent event. It means that urahara's orb during the TBPA was not in fact the finished product at all and that by the time aizen got urahara's orb he still had his own. The very feeding of one orb to the other could have been an event from after aizen's escape from SS.

If what I am saying is true then we have a two particular plot points left for kubo to explain(and perhaps more):

Why did urahara create the orb to begin with?
Aizen used his incomplete orb to create arrancar before he got urahara's orb.

[devstauk]

This might be a huge WTF?! but if we look back at the time ichigo was put into the whole before started turning hollow, i had a thought that maybe Urahara Boosted Ichigo's transformation or whatever with the Orb?

Don't get me wrong from the explanation that was given to explain why that process was happening seems strange that only Ichigo went through that and not one other shinigami did, what also made me think ?? is the only other Shinigami's to go threw that was the vizards and they were exposed to the Orb, and lets not Forget that Urahara knows Isshin quite well from the looks of things, lets take that into account as well, He would of known from the start that ichigo was half Quincy half Shinigami, what intrigues me there is if he did in fact Expose ichigo to the orb then why?

[kisuke u.]

RG hinted him as an uncivilized person i.e. Hikifune-have u lost ur humanity while living with Urahara etc. Isshin-why are u so civil that’s not like u. was he really a cruel man in the past (like Unohana, just an example) and now grown softer? Ginjou called him a suspicious man. Kubo has said that we will get to see(learn about) his shadowy nature in this arc.

[Azuma]

The scenario presented to us is that urahara in response to the disappearance of souls investigated and created the orb to further hollowification. Is this consistent? From gin's flashback it seems like aizen was working on hollowification well over 10 years at least. Are we to believe that in between the time urahara learned from mayuri and hirako about the disappearances he managed to create a prototype? Its quite fast if we compare it with what aizen did. I think urahara was being purposely misleading there. His answer to the disappearances was indeed hollowification however from that chapter it seemed like he had been researching the orb long before the disappearances. Why was he researching the orb to begin with?

After reading that part again, the way I interpret it is that Urahara had been working on the Hogyoku since before that incident - the gigai was the only thing which he invented as a result of it. As for the image with Aizen wearing his Captain haori, it could very well simply be an image of him completing his Hogyoku research recently. I think the translation in this part is very important and could be misleading. Perhaps it was supposed to mean that Aizen came up with the idea of the Hogyoku before Urahara. That, however, doesn't rule out the possibility of Urahara completing his research first.

RG hinted him as an uncivilized person i.e. Hikifune-have u lost ur humanity while living with Urahara etc. Isshin-why are u so civil that’s not like u. was he really a cruel man in the past (like Unohana, just an example) and now grown softer? Ginjou called him a suspicious man. Kubo has said that we will get to see(learn about) his shadowy nature in this arc.

Urahara has often been hinted at as a more complex and darker character than what he appears like. Other than your examples, there is also the case of a creep like Mayuri finding Urahara unpleasant and saying that he is unable to understand Urahara's character.

I find the best example, however, being the fact that Urahara was in charge of the Special Detention Unit. One of his duties was to imprison Shinigamis who COULD become a threat. In other words, he was imprisoning people who had not yet done anything and were technically still innocent. Not many people would be fine with having such a role.

Overall, Urahara's dubious nature is what makes him the most interesting character in Bleach.

[M3J]

I don't think Urahara is evil. Odd as hell, yeah, but not evil. Aizen sought power for himself, while Urahara doesn't seek power. I'm not sure if he's sacrificed or is willing to sacrifice others , but Aizen does not seem to balk at the thought.

[Azuma]

I don't think Urahara is evil. Odd as hell, yeah, but not evil. Aizen sought power for himself, while Urahara doesn't seek power. I'm not sure if he's sacrificed or is willing to sacrifice others , but Aizen does not seem to balk at the thought.

I seriously doubt Urahara will turn into a villain at any point. That seems ridiculous to me.

I do agree with you. Urahara is not evil. He is, however, dubious in his nature. Generally, I think he abides to a more utilitarian code. This can be seen in his work as the head of the Special Detention Unit and the fact that he didn't mind getting rid of Rukia's powers against her will - as long as it serves a greater purpose.

Then again, good & evil is not easily defined in Bleach. Kenpachi and Mayuri could, for example, be seen as evil in their methods & personalities. At the same time, they are one of the "good guys".

[M3J]

Good and evil are quite subjective. Urahara is considered good because he helps out the heroes while Kenpachi and Mayuri were considered bad at the time because they opposed our heroes. If Aizen helped Ichigo and the others, while staying on his evil path, he'd probably be seen as a hero. I think Urahara's more of a person who's willing to do almost anything for the greater good, as long as it doesn't result in deaths or more deaths. He could have killed Rukia or hidden the sphere somewhere else, but he kept it within her.

[Azuma]

Good and evil are quite subjective. Urahara is considered good because he helps out the heroes while Kenpachi and Mayuri were considered bad at the time because they opposed our heroes. If Aizen helped Ichigo and the others, while staying on his evil path, he'd probably be seen as a hero. I think Urahara's more of a person who's willing to do almost anything for the greater good, as long as it doesn't result in deaths or more deaths. He could have killed Rukia or hidden the sphere somewhere else, but he kept it within her.

That may indeed be the case. However, I seriously doubt that kiilling Rukia would have gotten rid of the Hogyoku.

[M3J]

It wouldn't have, but Urahara would have been able to hide it elsewhere or something.

[Hakuteiken]

It wouldn't have, but Urahara would have been able to hide it elsewhere or something.

He could initially do so, but he opted to hide it there, so, I don't think he would go that far. He would just use the reverse Kido-like technique Aizen did to get it out back.

[MBVC]

First of all, I believe Urahara had thought about the possibility of creating the Hogyoku before he became a captain, but he didn't have secret any place and enough people to help him hiding this dangerous project from old man Yam and central 46. He knew fully well that creating the Hogyoku is illegal without any doubt but he chose to do it anyway. Second, why did he only make only one Hogyoku? Or did he only make one Hogyoku during these past 100 years? I think Urahara hided his Hogyoku inside Rukia in order to force Aizen showing his claws, I believe Urahara knew Aizen would make a move when he knew the Hogyoku hidden inside Rukia. Btw, how did Aizen know about this secret? It seems to me Urahara has been looking for someone better to replace the current Soul King, this being who can befriend with 3 sides (shinigami, quincy and hollow) will bring peace to all worlds. Until that time comes, Urahara will obey the Soul King's orders on the surface but he still looks for a higher being who understands the situations of shinigami, quincy and hollow. Up til now, we have a 3-way war between shinigami vs quincy vs hollow, I think after this quincy arc finishes, we will have a final hollow arc in hell perhaps.

[kisuke u.]

Urahara has often been hinted at as a more complex and darker character than what he appears like. Other than your examples, there is also the case of a creep like Mayuri finding Urahara unpleasant and saying that he is unable to understand Urahara's character.

I find the best example, however, being the fact that Urahara was in charge of the Special Detention Unit. One of his duties was to imprison Shinigamis who COULD become a threat. In other words, he was imprisoning people who had not yet done anything and were technically still innocent. Not many people would be fine with having such a role.

Overall, Urahara's dubious nature is what makes him the most interesting character in Bleach.

If I am not mistaken wasn’t it the duty of squad 12 and as he became the captain so he had to take care of it too.

If we see the order of events then it is safe to assume that Urahara too was working on hollowfication of shinigami before the visords incident and had created the hogyoku at that time i.e. he had it when Tessai ported the victims to his lab. Aizen created one before kisuke but it wasn’t complete. When Urahara tried to reverse the process (effects) of hollowfication with the hogyoku, he said there were 20% chances of success and he couldn’t do it. He enhanced the power of the hogyoku (or completed it) after fleeing to the HW since his wasn’t complete either as Aizen judged from his research but his(Urahara’s) experiment was a success while Aizen’s wasn’t. Before going to the HW, he promised Tessai that he would find a way to save them. So (may be)he completed it there. Aizen fed his hogyoku the souls of many spirit beings in the district to complete it which wasn’t enough and so he gave Urahara’s one to awake it.

About his choice of Rukia, I think it has to do with her too. Hogyoku tried to repel Tessai so (I think) an ordinary soul can’t contain it. When he hide it inside her;
- The first time she went to the HW with kiyoney and has no knowledge of her visit.

- When she lost her powers.

If it was the first time;
- Why Aizen didn’t had it from her on her coming back?
- Why he waited for her to loss her powers (in other words for ichigo to become a SR)?
- Why Urahara didn’t take it out when she lost her powers? He was a captain; he knew the SS would come for her in case she is missing.
If it was the 2nd time;
- She was a noble and under suspicion. When she lost her powers, it was obvious that the SS would come for her and you have Aizen as your opponent there, you should be more careful about your choice, instead he decided to hide it in her.
- Why Aizen chose Rukia to be appointed in KT near the place where ichigo lived in the first place?
Is there any connection between the choices of the two? May be Urahara wanted Aizen to have the hogyoku so that he could expose his true intentions.

[MBVC]

Aizen chose her because he knew about her guilt killing Kaien; by sending her to Ichigo's place then sent a hollow after Ichigo's family would ensure the interaction based on the assumption that Rukia would help Ichigo even she had to sacrificed her life due to her past guilt. The problem is that why did Urahara hide the Hogyoku insider her with the knowledge that she would be taken back by forced? This only means that he had a second plan after the first one which is exposing Aizen's dark side.

[conn-man]

It was shown plain and simple that Aizen just wanted to change the rules of the world. Almost childish in hindsight but we still don't know what his reasoning was. He was a heartless guy attached to know one but himself.

Urahara has values in friendship to an extent way above Aizen but way below Ichigo by comparison. He values his friends and allies but at the same time he seems loyal to structured order. By holding this belief, he also seems capable of sacrificing anyone for the greater good.

So I dont think Urahara is as bad as Aizen, however, there are similarities.