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Thread: X-Ball Discussion Thread

  1. #16
    Intl Translator 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Airgrimes's Avatar
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    Re: X-Ball Discussion Thread

    Phantron that was a lot of nonsense.
    Not having 5balls doesn't make you weak. or makes you not worth mentioning.
    Akutsu even with 5 ball didn't look like he would really out play Atobe who doesn't have 5ball.

    LOL why forget AK?
    Niou and Yukimura would have beaten Akutsu at 5ball without question as well.

    I can understand the 10ball thing clearly but you have to see past that 5ball hype. Otherwise Konomi wouldn't have pushed them all to do 10ball, and more importantly, Yukimura wouldn't have been the only MSer chosen while the 5ballers were there.

    Secondly Kaoz you forgot Ibu and Kamio who could hit 2 balls at a time back at Districts.
    remember Ryoma walks through them and handles the two balls at once?

    ---------- Post added at 06:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:29 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Fayte View Post
    That mission had nothing to do with Ryoma getting 5-ball, because Ryoma got it from the sportsman hunt. Kenya said the only thing that mission accomplished was better balance. This means their 4-ball status (and Tanishi's skinny status) was most likely obtained by practicing on the irregular court.
    I agree with this, and I never said Ryoma got it from the mission. I never said Kenya nor Tanishi did either.
    I said they went on the mission together. So I think Konomi gave them some added improvement along with that.
    This means in addition to their mission, Konomi gave each of them added improvement.
    Ryoma's added improvement being 5ball, and Tanishi and Kenya's being 4ball.

    I mentioned this because Kenya and Tanishi are Low Tier characters unlike the other Xballers. And what they have in common was that mission.

    ---------- Post added at 06:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:32 PM ----------

    LOL Tanishi has 4ball and Kite hasn't been shown to have anything like that and there is absolutely no reason to assume he should.
    Are we going to have comedians on here say Tanishi > Kite? Or Tanishi > Atobe, Fuji, Shiraishi?

    10ball hype yes, but 5ball hype no. No need to hype up 5ball, it can't have been that good.

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  3. #17
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
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    Re: X-Ball Discussion Thread

    The top tier characters pretty much had nothing to say regarding the techniques of the first 3 matches, even for people on their own team (Mach Serve was just a whatever move to the top tier guys) and yet Duke was impressed a middle schooler can easily return the 5-ball. In particular the Atobe & Niou game features probably the strongest set of moves we've seen so far in a game of POT. Atobe Kingdom, Tezuka Phantom, ZSS, Mach Serve, and Mental Pressure are all clearly top tier moves and yet nobody at the top tier bothered commenting on these moves. Yet Kintaro's 5-ball was immediately commented by Duke, who is surprised that a middle schooler can do this easily. He also saw a game earlier that features guy with ZSS, x-ray vision, synchronizing with yourself, and other ridiculous superpowers and he's still surprised that a middle schooler can easily return the 5-ball. This implies even seeing all these crazy techs he still doesn't expect a middle schooler to 'easily return 5-ball', which pretty much means there is no equivalence relationship from other techniques to the X-ball tiers. If Atobe Kingdom and ZSS doesn't qualify you as 'easily return 5-ball' then I can't really think of any other technique that'd put you up there.

    Similar to the power players never play anyone besides themselves you obviously won't see a X-baller play someone who doesn't know X-ball (unless it's a lopsided instant win). There are obviously other guys who could learn X-ball but right now there are only 4 of them who passes the minimum qualifying criteria, which is able to hit 5 real balls at the same time.

  4. #18
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Fayte's Avatar
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    Re: X-Ball Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Phantron View Post
    and yet Duke was impressed a middle schooler can easily return the 5-ball. In particular the Atobe & Niou game features probably the strongest set of moves we've seen so far in a game of POT. Atobe Kingdom, Tezuka Phantom, ZSS, Mach Serve, and Mental Pressure are all clearly top tier moves and yet nobody at the top tier bothered commenting on these moves. Yet Kintaro's 5-ball was immediately commented by Duke, who is surprised that a middle schooler can do this easily. He also saw a game earlier that features guy with ZSS, x-ray vision, synchronizing with yourself, and other ridiculous superpowers and he's still surprised that a middle schooler can easily return the 5-ball. This implies even seeing all these crazy techs he still doesn't expect a middle schooler to 'easily return 5-ball', which pretty much means there is no equivalence relationship from other techniques to the X-ball tiers.
    Let me remind you of something. The high-schoolers were shocked at the middle-schoolers even BEING at the camp to begin with. So that tells you right off the bat that they do not have high expectations. I think you're looking at it from the wrong angle. The question is not "Why did the HSers only praise them for certain things and not everything?" The question is "Why did the HSers do nothing BUT praise them whenever they had "match commentary?" If you think Konomi is going to draw a reaction from the HSers every single time a MSer picks up a racquet, you don't understand the way this manga works. Konomi is lazy as it is, he aint drawing that stuff every chapter. The MSers have been praised more than you remember. Oni commented on how disciplined Sanada was, and noticed the potential of Momoshiro. Irie and Shuuji both acknowledged the competence of Atobe. Yukimura was chosen for a shuffle match. As far as I'm concerned, they have been impressed this whole series. 5-ball is not significant in light of this reality.

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  6. #19
    MangaHelper 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Kaoz's Avatar
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    Re: X-Ball Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Airgrimes View Post
    Secondly Kaoz you forgot Ibu and Kamio who could hit 2 balls at a time back at Districts.
    remember Ryoma walks through them and handles the two balls at once?
    Except that the two situations are completely different. Neither of them are hitting the two balls at exactly the same time there, let alone at a speed you'd see in a rally nowadays.

    As I kinda said before, I think it's worth considering to somewhat split the ball techs into being able to rally with that many balls and being able to actually create them from a single ball. The former being stat dependent and the latter needing some added input, but more along the lines of techniques as we know them. For example, Irie might be unable to split the ball by himself (theoretically speaking of course, maybe he can), but he would still be able to return all the balls if Oni split them first.

  7. #20
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Fuji Shusuke's Avatar
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    Re: X-Ball Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaoz View Post
    Except that the two situations are completely different. Neither of them are hitting the two balls at exactly the same time there, let alone at a speed you'd see in a rally nowadays.

    As I kinda said before, I think it's worth considering to somewhat split the ball techs into being able to rally with that many balls and being able to actually create them from a single ball. The former being stat dependent and the latter needing some added input, but more along the lines of techniques as we know them. For example, Irie might be unable to split the ball by himself (theoretically speaking of course, maybe he can), but he would still be able to return all the balls if Oni split them first.
    Well technically the ball does not really clone when following the speed mulitplier theory. So when Oni hits a 10x speed ball to attempt to create 10 balls, Irie does not have that much power in his arm (apparently) to hit it back at 10x speed to create the clone illusion so the ball will be returned as one.

    Essentially, splitting the ball and rallying the balls are the same thing since the returner needs to "split" the ball (hit the ball X-times fast) to sustain the clone illusion.
    "Sorry, but I never lose to the same opponent twice." - Fuji

  8. #21
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    Re: X-Ball Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Fuji Shusuke View Post
    Well technically the ball does not really clone when following the speed mulitplier theory. So when Oni hits a 10x speed ball to attempt to create 10 balls, Irie does not have that much power in his arm (apparently) to hit it back at 10x speed to create the clone illusion so the ball will be returned as one.

    Essentially, splitting the ball and rallying the balls are the same thing since the returner needs to "split" the ball (hit the ball X-times fast) to sustain the clone illusion.
    The effort Tokugawa and Ryoma used to maintain rallying with 10 real balls is considerably below what it takes Oni to create 10 balls (using just one) based on their facial expressions, and Ryoma is consistently toe to toe with Kintaro who can only do 8-ball in a real match and there's no reason to believe Ryoma has suddenly surpassed Kintaro by such a wide margin where he can casually do stuff that's beyond Kintaro's limit.

    If using X real balls is the same as splitting one ball to X balls, why even get X balls to practice in the first place? The 10-ball is clearly one of those 'watch out this tech can kill you' deal and it really wouldn't make sense to practice with that kind of power. Even in POT they don't usually practice with techs that can kill you. For example you don't see people practice with Hado 108s. It'd be reasonable to assume using X real balls is a 'safe' version of honing for X-ball techs without risking significant injury.

  9. #22
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Fayte's Avatar
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    Re: X-Ball Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Phantron View Post
    The effort Tokugawa and Ryoma used to maintain rallying with 10 real balls is considerably below what it takes Oni to create 10 balls (using just one) based on their facial expressions
    This is probably the most subjective argument I've heard yet.

  10. #23
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    Re: X-Ball Discussion Thread

    If you practice with a method that's not even POT-rule legal, there's only two possible reasons:

    1. It's harder than real technique (similar to the wearing heavy weights) to improve your skill.
    2. It's easier than the real technique because some techs are too dangerous to use in practice.

    In the case of #1 then the 10-ball practice should've created effects that makes setting the net on fire look tame, except that never happened. Tokugawa and Ryoma rallied for hours with 10 balls, compared to Kintaro showing signs of getting tired and hitting his limit after a few rallies with Oni. Unless Tokugawa and especially Ryoma are supposed to be an order of magnitude better than Kintaro or Oni, #1 is simply impossible. There would be no point to use X real balls if it only duplicates the same effect because Tokugawa presumably can split the ball into 10 just fine. So it has to be weaker than the real thing.

  11. #24
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    Re: X-Ball Discussion Thread

    Phantron, one key issue is that the ball wasn't on fire until it scraped across the cord and began to singe the net.
    Remove the whole "net on fire" thing from your mind until we solve the Mystery of the burning net.

    There isn't nearly enough evidence to suggest Tooyama set the net on fire on purpose and burned down the whole court. Or that he can set net's on fire at will like how he did.
    Even for Kintaro who despite being amongst the biggest retards in the series, that would be beyond retarded to burn the net that you need for your own match on purpose.
    Secondly, Oni probably would have hit them all back but he didn't expect the last ball to pick cause so much friction when pass across the cord of the net that it would pick up flames.
    Lastly Ryoma was hitting 10 casually when Kintaro was just on 8 lol. Tokugawa wasn't impressed and we still haven't seen how Oni will react to Tooyama hitting 10 at once. Stop underrating other characters just for Tooyama.

    Although you've raised a good point on how different practising with 10 real balls is to practising with 10 ?Illusion? balls.

  12. #25
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    Re: X-Ball Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Airgrimes View Post
    Phantron, one key issue is that the ball wasn't on fire until it scraped across the cord and began to singe the net.
    Remove the whole "net on fire" thing from your mind until we solve the Mystery of the burning net.

    There isn't nearly enough evidence to suggest Tooyama set the net on fire on purpose and burned down the whole court. Or that he can set net's on fire at will like how he did.
    Even for Kintaro who despite being amongst the biggest retards in the series, that would be beyond retarded to burn the net that you need for your own match on purpose.
    Secondly, Oni probably would have hit them all back but he didn't expect the last ball to pick cause so much friction when pass across the cord of the net that it would pick up flames.
    Lastly Ryoma was hitting 10 casually when Kintaro was just on 8 lol. Tokugawa wasn't impressed and we still haven't seen how Oni will react to Tooyama hitting 10 at once. Stop underrating other characters just for Tooyama.

    Although you've raised a good point on how different practising with 10 real balls is to practising with 10 ?Illusion? balls.
    Err, setting the net on fire is clearly just to give you an idea what kind of power you'd expect for a true 10-ball level rally. I mean none of the top tier players even look surprised at the outcome, and why should they be when Byodouin can crater a wall with a serve? But it pretty much rules out the case of practicing with 10 real balls > using 10-ball tech in terms of difficulty, or the practice rally between Tokugawa and Ryoma should at least end up with the court looking like it's been ravaged by some kind of natural disaster. You can't get away from this kind of equipment damage no matter how powerful the characters are. If you replaced Oni with Byodouin in the Kintaro match, let's say Byodouin is so powerful he can return the 'set net on fire' shot like it's nothing. But the net itself is still going to get set on fire when Kintaro did that move. There's literally no way you can do 10-ball level rally for extended time without accidentally destroying some equipment.

    There's quite a bit of history of people not going all out in practice. Tezuka didn't even use Tezuka Zone in his practice matches against other Seigaku players. When you consider that playing tennis is now a death-defying event it does make a lot of sense you'd come up with 'safe' versions of techs that'd normally burn buildings down so you can actually practice.

  13. #26
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    Re: X-Ball Discussion Thread

    Stop with the net on fire shot.
    We don't know if Oni was necessarily "unable" to return it.
    Byoudouin obviously would have.
    chances are, the Top10 see nothing wrong with a net burning accidentally, whilst the rest of the camp were stunned.

    I don't think 10ball absolutely means destroy equipment and I think that it's stupid to think that.
    Don't think that to return 10ball by Oni the net must be set on fire. That's really dumb.

    Byoudouin would have returned 10 cleanly and wouldn't have to accidentally hit a Cord ball.
    That just confirms that Oni is probably still above Tooyama. That 10th ball he returned was a Cord Ball, it touched the cord.
    It means it was inches away of hitting the net and becoming a fault.

    Ryoma and Tokugawa don't use any kind of over whelming power in their play styles. Whilst Oni and Tooyama have beast levels of power incorporated in their tennis.
    That is why there was destruction. Obviously Tokugawa isn't going to be destroying equipment and neither is Ryoma as neither of them have been portrayed as players with overwhelming power.

    Your argument is a bit silly.

  14. #27
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Hardy's Avatar
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    Re: X-Ball Discussion Thread

    I don't know how relevant this is but...

    Spoiler show


    Pre Nationals Fuji hit back X-Balls before it became mainstream

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  16. #28
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Brandnewkid's Avatar
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    Re: X-Ball Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Hardy View Post
    I don't know how relevant this is but...

    Spoiler show


    Pre Nationals Fuji hit back X-Balls before it became mainstream
    Actually, Akutsu did it first.

  17. #29
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    Re: X-Ball Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Brandnewkid View Post
    Actually, Akutsu did it first.
    3 balls? gotta see that.

    Fudo guys practiced with 2 balls, but still, no one tried 3 balls before Fuji I think.

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    Re: X-Ball Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Hardy View Post
    3 balls? gotta see that.

    Fudo guys practiced with 2 balls, but still, no one tried 3 balls before Fuji I think.
    Thought he meant X-balls in general.

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