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View Poll Results: Why does Kouen think Hakuryuu is no threat to him?

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  • Because Hakuryuu is too powerless to start a coup on his own

    1 25.00%
  • Because Judar is secretly working with Kouen

    0 0%
  • Because Hakuei is on Kouen's side

    1 25.00%
  • Becaus just like Sinbad, Kouen has a djinn ability that we don't know of that he's using to manipulate Hakuryuu

    0 0%
  • Kouen is underestimating Hakuryuu

    2 50.00%
  • Others (explain if you don't mind)

    0 0%
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Thread: The Kou Empire Factions (Kouen, Hakuryuu and Gyokuen Discussion)

  1. #1
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member Hayatempest's Avatar
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    The Kou Empire Factions (Kouen, Hakuryuu and Gyokuen Discussion)

    Unlike the unified Seven Seas Alliance that's under Sinbad's banner, the Kou empire is divided by at least three factions that want to rule the empire (and the world):

    Kouen Faction:

    According to Alf Layla Wa Layla guidebook, Kouen is almost identical to Sinbad in stats. They both have the highest leadership abilities out of all the characters and the highest magoi quantity out of the non-magi and non-magician characters (both 5/5). The only stat that Kouen is behind Sinbad's is technique (Sinbad 5/5, Kouen 4/5). Also, there's the number of djinns, but Kouen is balanced out by the fact that he has four metal vessel users under his command (five with Alibaba, if he ended up joining him for real)

    When first introduced, Kouen looked like a cruel and tyrannical character. He seemed like the opposite of Sinbad, who was an instant love when he appeared at the begining. What's interesting is that in contrast to Sinbad, who we learned he isn't as heroic nor as noble as we thought he was, we learned that Kouen isn't as bad as he seemed. He laughed off Hakuryuu's disrespect of him in public, declared he doesn't wish to fight with his brothers nor force them to join him (he did the same with Alibaba), healed Kouha when everyone expected he will punish him and acknowledges Hakuryuu's birthright and even feels guilty for denying him that (for a valid reason).

    Another thing we learned about from the manga, official art...etc is that he greatly admired his late uncle and cousins. It seems like he wouldn't have minded if his uncle, Hakuyuu or Hakuren were still alive and he continued to serve them. Hakuei revealed in the funeral that she thinks Kouen will make an even better ruler than her father what you would expect from the master of Paimon, the spirit of chaos and mad love. And like mentioned above, he acknowledges Hakuryuu's birthright and doesn't seem to have minded if Hakuryuu is emperor, if he weren't a threat to the empire. What I'm interested to know is how Kouen found out about Hakuryuu and his revenge? Up to the funeral, Hakuryuu acted in a way to not let Hakuei notice there was something wrong with him, which leads me to think Kouen might've learned about it from Hakuei or Judar, if Judar is indeed working with Kouen.

    So far, Kouen's future plans include fighting against the Seven Seas Alliance, unifying the world and getting rid of Gyokuen. He also seemed to have struck some kind of a deal with Muu and his Fanalis group. As for Hakuryuu, even though he knows he intends to start a coup against him, he thinks he possesses no threat to him for some reason. Alibaba thinks that just like Sinbad and Kougyoku, Kouen has set some kind of a trap against him, though he doesn't seem he would go as far as killing him:

    Spoiler show

    Spoiler show


    Hakuryuu Faction

    Everyone knows Hakuryuu and his story with his mother. He pales in comparison to Kouen in terms of stats and has the lowest leadership abilities out of all the Kou king vessels beside Kougyoku (1/5). When compared to Alibaba, though, he's the same in fighting ability, technique and physical strenth (4/5, 3/5, and 3/5 respectively). Alibaba is higher in leadership abilities (3/5) and Hakuryuu is higher in magoi quantity (4/5 for Hakuryuu and 3/5 for Alibaba)

    Just after he acquired Zagan, he declared that he wanted to start a war and divide the Kou empire into two. When he reunited with Hakuei after he left Sindria, he displayed a cruelty on the battlefield that shocked her and she sensed that he had changed for the worse. After Hakuei rejected his offer to join him, he joined hands with Judar, who told him that he was just playing into his mother's hand:

    Spoiler show


    According to Alf Layla, Judar is both using Hakuryuu and wants him to fall into depravity. What also surprised me is that in the Sadeik guide, it was implied that at first, Judar wanted to join hands with Kouen, who would satisfy his love for war. However, since Kouen didn't pursue him that strongly (because Kouen thought Judar was Gyokuen's lap dog?) he turned to Hakuryuu instead.

    Judar's plans and loyalty are both a mystery to me. After he had learned about his past (he described Solomon's wisdom as 'the power that changed his life') he seemed to want to break free from Al-Thamen. Sadeik described the panel when he cried in Sindria as 'could it be a cry from his heart?'

    I can think of these possibilities concerning Judar:

    -With Kouen's statement that he's inducing Hakuryuu into not starting trouble, it's possible that Judar is working with Kouen.

    -Judar is following his own agenda and also wants to get revenge on Al-Thamen for killing his family and using him all those years.

    -Judar is still loyal to Gyokuen and is working with her to make Hakuryuu fall into depravity.

    Hakuryuu's future goal is to kill his mother and become emperor, but it's unknown what he and Judar are up to right now. What does Judar intends to do with the energy he collected after the battle with the medium?

    Gyokuen Faction:

    To Gyokuen, Kou, its armies and its resources are just a mean to an end to fulfill the organization's agenda. According to Sadeik, she's provoking Hakuryuu's hatred towards her and raising that dark seed within him, and according to Judar, Hakuryuu's way of life is being controlled by her. As for Kouen, according to Sadeik, she can't make him an ally but can't afford to have him as an enemy; it was even implied she hopes she can bring him over to her side. As for Hakuei, she declared to Hakuryuu she would kill her and even attempted to kill her during the battle with the medium. Since Hakuei is important to both Hakuryuu and Kouen, it's possible that Gyokuen has some plans concerning her.

    So, what Kouen has in store for Hakuryuu and Al-Thamen? What Hakuryuu and Judar are up to and what Gyokuen is planning to do about Judar and the Kou king vessels?

    Feel free to post your thoughts on the Kou empire and its characters (and sorry for the walls of text)
    Last edited by Hayatempest; July 24, 2014 at 08:27 PM.
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  2. #2
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member ladylola's Avatar
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    Re: The Kou Empire Factions (Kouen, Hakuryuu and Gyokuen Discussion)

    Well I guess that Kouen doesn't think Hakuryuu is much of a threat because he thinks he doesn't have anyone to back him up, but we know that Sinbad might interfere in Kou's affairs if Hakuryuu asked him and I doubt that Kouen knows about their deal in Sindria.Unless of course it was all part of his plan and he secretly made it so that Hakuryuu goes to Sindria to form an alliance with Sinbad, and Kouen could use that as an excuse to start a war.To me Kouen is kind of an hypocrite, he recognizes Hakuryuu's birthright, and yet he's willing to take the throne from him just so he can unite the world,while destroying other cultures and civilizations in the process.It doesn't make much sense to me. About Judal it doesn't matter whether he works for himself, Gyokuen or Kouen because the outcome will be the same: making Hakuryuu fall into depravity and possibly use him as the medium.I think that ever since Judal saw his past he may have become really desperate and the only thing he wants to see happen is the world getting destroyed. As for Gyokuen well we're pretty sure she wants to kill off Hakuei if it can allow her to make Hakuryuu fall into depravity.
    One more thing, Kouen has no idea what is going on between Gyokuen, Judal and Hakuryuu I think and Al Thamen's true objective. For someone who's so desperate about knowing the truth about Alma Toran it's pretty ironic that he doesn't know what is going on in his country. I can see after he learns the truth he may change his plans, and try to get rid of Al Thamen but I fear it's too late.
    Last edited by ladylola; July 24, 2014 at 09:42 PM.

  3. #3
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member Hayatempest's Avatar
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    Re: The Kou Empire Factions (Kouen, Hakuryuu and Gyokuen Discussion)

    Quote Originally Posted by ladylola View Post
    One more thing, Kouen has no idea what is going on between Gyokuen, Judal and Hakuryuu I think and Al Thamen's true objective. For someone who's so desperate about knowing the truth about Alma Toran it's pretty ironic that he doesn't know what is going on in his country. I can see after he learns the truth he may change his plans, and try to get rid of Al Thamen but I fear it's too late.
    What makes me think Kouen knows about Hakuryuu and his revenge is when he described Hakuryuu as 'a king vessel unable to swallow up his hatred' and in the background we see an image of Hakuryuu holding Gyokuen's severed head. It's highly possible Kouen already knows that Al-Thamen were behind the incident.

    While Kouen does want to follow in Hakutoku's footsteps and unify the world (and Hakuryuu doesn't want to) he doesn't want Hakuryuu to become emperor is because his hatred doesn't make him fit. He referred to it in his advice to Alibaba about what he has to do after Balbadd becomes his.
    Last edited by Hayatempest; July 24, 2014 at 10:01 PM.
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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member ladylola's Avatar
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    Re: The Kou Empire Factions (Kouen, Hakuryuu and Gyokuen Discussion)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hayatempest View Post
    What makes me think Kouen knows about Hakuryuu and his revenge is when he described Hakuryuu as 'a king vessel unable to swallow up his hatred' and in the background we see an image of Hakuryuu holding Gyokuen's severed head. It's highly possible Kouen already knows that Al-Thamen were behind the incident.

    While Kouen does want to follow in Hakutoku's footsteps and unify the world (and Hakuryuu doesn't want to) he doesn't want Hakuryuu to become emperor because his hatred doesn't make him fit. He referred to it in his advice to Alibaba about what he has to do after Balbadd becomes his.
    I meant he doesn't know that Gyokuen is feeding off Hakuryuu's hatred and Judal might be helping her, only to make Hakuryuu fall into depravity. He's well aware that Hakuryuu wants to become emperor but right now the true problem lies in what Al Thamen are planning to do to finish the dark spot.

  5. #5
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member minette's Avatar
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    Re: The Kou Empire Factions (Kouen, Hakuryuu and Gyokuen Discussion)

    Kouen has always been portrayed as a man of great arrogance and self confidence. A good example is when Judar tells him he declared war against Sindra, Kouen's reaction is just laughing it off. The worst part is that he didn't even know Sinbad. Considering the consequences of that action ( Sinbad making a deal with Hakuryuu and Zepar's kougyoku) I could see him making the same mistake again underestimating his enemy

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    Re: The Kou Empire Factions (Kouen, Hakuryuu and Gyokuen Discussion)

    Thanks for the character stats hayatempest! I had no idea hakuryuu had more magoi than alibaba.
    On the topic of kouen, I doubt he would underestimate anybody at this point, especially hakuryuu. My only grip with him is that his methods of unifying the world are terrible even for a fictional world's standards, though I will definitely give him props for not making al thamen his enemy because he knows how much murdering and war his plan involves and that he will need all the help he can get.
    I think his ideals could change after the summit, especially when it comes to al thamen.
     
    Quote Quote:
    As for Hakuryuu, even though he knows he intends to start a coup against him, he thinks he possesses no threat to him for some reason. Alibaba thinks that just like Sinbad and Kougyoku, Kouen has set some kind of a trap against him, though he doesn't seem he would go as far as killing him
    This part got me confused a bit, do you mean that alibaba thinks that sinbad and kouen are using him or are using hakuryuu? And how is kougyoku any of them?

    Anyway, the only detail we know about judal and hakuryuu's plan is that it involves a great amount of black rukh that was taken from the medium, but other than that it's really hard to predict what they're up to exactly.
    Though I will say that I really think that hakuryuu doesn't care about hakuei's safety anymore since he rejected to help her in the medium fight.

  8. #7
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member Hayatempest's Avatar
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    Re: The Kou Empire Factions (Kouen, Hakuryuu and Gyokuen Discussion)

    Quote Originally Posted by airmattress View Post
    Thanks for the character stats hayatempest! I had no idea hakuryuu had more magoi than alibaba.
    On the topic of kouen, I doubt he would underestimate anybody at this point, especially hakuryuu. My only grip with him is that his methods of unifying the world are terrible even for a fictional world's standards, though I will definitely give him props for not making al thamen his enemy because he knows how much murdering and war his plan involves and that he will need all the help he can get.
    I think his ideals could change after the summit, especially when it comes to al thamen.
    You're welcome. You can also find all the charactets'stats on Magi wiki. As for Kouen, according to the guide he's currently focused on unifying the world and would only deal with Gyokuen later. Is Kouen really a match for Gyokuen? Gyokuen is careful not to be on his bad side right now and she even wants him to join her. I don't know, though he's planning carefully, the scans that I posted above raised a death flag for him. Actually, at the moment, I think all the king vessels except Alibaba, Muu and probably Koumei have a good chance of dying.
     


    Quote Quote:
    This part got me confused a bit, do you mean that alibaba thinks that sinbad and kouen are using him or are using hakuryuu? And how is kougyoku any of them?
    Maybe I worded this wrong. I meant Alibaba thinks just like Sinbad is manipulating Kougyoku through Zepar, Kouen might have set a trap for Hakuryuu that Hakuryuu doesn't know about.

    Quote Quote:
    Anyway, the only detail we know about judal and hakuryuu's plan is that it involves a great amount of black rukh that was taken from the medium, but other than that it's really hard to predict what they're up to exactly.
    Though I will say that I really think that hakuryuu doesn't care about hakuei's safety anymore since he rejected to help her in the medium fight.
    I would't say Hakuryuu doesn't care about her anymore. He and Judar were observing the battle from a distance and weren't revealed they were doing so until the battle ended. He probably wanted to help her off-page. The attack on Hakuei happened so suddenly that even Kouen had no time to react. Hakuryuu is in a state of shock that Hakuei doesn't agree with him and even sided with Kouen, who he really hates, but his two main goals in life are still protecting her and killing his mother.
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    Registered User 初心者/ Shoshinsha / Beginner ayameyume's Avatar
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    Re: The Kou Empire Factions (Kouen, Hakuryuu and Gyokuen Discussion)

    I want to ask a question that bugging in my head since I read that chapter.
    What Kouen means by 'I'm building a nest in my body. A nest in which I kept strength of monsters, no matter how repulsive they are.'? Is he means he let Al-Thamen first then use them latter or something bad to his own body? Which body he means there? His country? (since the picture showed him with his Astaroth Djinn Equip and Gyokuen behind him, which is confusing me)

    About Hakuryuu, I don't know what I felt again about him. In one way, I felt pity. Yet he still has something in his mind--even sided with Judal. Maybe he already fall into depravity :/ And I foreseen Alibaba met him then confront him (if only Alibaba go to Kou after summit).

    I have nothing to comment about Gyokuen. At least, we need to confirm who she is first now.
    Ren Kouen and Ren Kouha's Fan

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    Re: The Kou Empire Factions (Kouen, Hakuryuu and Gyokuen Discussion)

    My personal opinion on character deaths in magi:
    I really don't feel that this is the type of manga that would have a lot of important characters dying. First off, nobody has had a premature death out of all the important people that died (I'm excluding hakuryuu's family since they died before the events of the manga started and aren't that important to the plot).
    Also the important characters that died so far are mostly villains that fell into depravity at some point: jamil, that b**** mother, mogamett when he got insane, ithnan,
    kassim, dunya, etc... Also non of them died without expressing their goals, ideals, and reason for turning evil.
    This is why i think that ohtaka won't be killing characters left and right just for the heck of it, and that if anyone were to die, they will have a good closure.

  11. #10
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member Hayatempest's Avatar
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    Re: The Kou Empire Factions (Kouen, Hakuryuu and Gyokuen Discussion)

    @ayameyume

    My interpretation is that Kouen is gathering some sort of destructive energy inside his body and plans to unleash it at some point on Al-Thamen. I'm not sure how he's gatgering this power, but since we see Astaroth and the blue ghost dragon in the panel, it could be some sort of a special djinn ability (like how Zepar spies on people and Valefor enables Sinbad to evade attacks). Kouen plans to live on and move forward, so I doubt it's anything suicidal, but man, I have a bad feeling about when he finally confronts Gyokuen.

    @airmattress

    Back in February, Ohtaka stated in one of her blog entries that certain characters will be killed (lol seriously, why would she make a statement like that). So far, Sinbad, Kougyoku, Kouen and Hakuei had death flags raised for them, so their fans are a bit anxious they might be killed off at some point. I expect that the party at the summit will be attacked and result in one of the households dying. My guess it could be Hinahoho, since he had a lot of development in the Sinbad spinoff. Jafar and Drakon are not safe either.
    Last edited by Hayatempest; July 25, 2014 at 08:50 AM.
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    Re: The Kou Empire Factions (Kouen, Hakuryuu and Gyokuen Discussion)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hayatempest View Post
    @airmattress
    Back in February, Ohtaka stated in one of her blog entries that certain characters will be killed (lol seriously, why would she make a statement like that). So far, Sinbad, Kougyoku, Kouen and Hakuei had death flags raised for them, so their fans are a bit anxious they might be killed off at some point. I expect that the party at the summit will be attacked and result in one of the households dying. My guess it could be Hinahoho, since he had a lot of development in the Sinbad spinoff. Jafar and Drakon are not safe either.
    Yeah i heard about that when I searching for a forum to discuss magi, but I'm pretty sure she was talking about setta and tess dying.
    If I remember correctly she even said that the deaths will be very soon.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member ladylola's Avatar
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    Re: The Kou Empire Factions (Kouen, Hakuryuu and Gyokuen Discussion)

    Quote Originally Posted by ayameyume View Post
    I want to ask a question that bugging in my head since I read that chapter.
    What Kouen means by 'I'm building a nest in my body. A nest in which I kept strength of monsters, no matter how repulsive they are.'? Is he means he let Al-Thamen first then use them latter or something bad to his own body? Which body he means there? His country? (since the picture showed him with his Astaroth Djinn Equip and Gyokuen behind him, which is confusing me).
    Maybe it's just a metaphor about him doing despicable things just so he can get what he wants. The chapter is called Dirty hands, so I can see that as a metaphor about him turning himself into a monster, a tyrant so that he's able to unite the world. And yeah it could also mean that he's willing to use all kinds of monsters(including Gyokuen) to realize his ambition.
    Another way to look at it is that he's keeping all those dark feelings inside and one day he will release all of it, and it will prolly be the day when he confronts Al Thamen.

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    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member minette's Avatar
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    Re: The Kou Empire Factions (Kouen, Hakuryuu and Gyokuen Discussion)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hayatempest View Post
    @ayameyume
    So far, Sinbad, Kougyoku, Kouen and Hakuei had death flags raised for them, so their fans are a bit anxious they might be killed off at some point.
    Sinbad does have a death flag but if he die it will be near the end of the manga.
    And why do you think Muu is safe? For me it's the opposite

    I always thought that when Kouen was talking about his body he was referring to Kou as a county

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    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member Hayatempest's Avatar
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    Re: The Kou Empire Factions (Kouen, Hakuryuu and Gyokuen Discussion)

    As for Muu, he has yet to have any death flags and seems like the only one who wants to carry on Scheherazade's will and protect Reim. I can see him at some point being chosen by Titus and ruling over Reim.

    And yeah, I can't see Sinbad dying until the last arc of the manga. As for Kouen, his story is intertwined with that of Hakuryuu and Gykouen, so I can't see him dying until their plots are resolved. It's also possible that Ohtaka is planning for Kouen to revert back to being a retainer and serve Hakuryuu who gets over his hatred and proves himself reliable.
    Last edited by Hayatempest; July 25, 2014 at 12:01 PM.
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    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member Ryuusu's Avatar
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    Re: The Kou Empire Factions (Kouen, Hakuryuu and Gyokuen Discussion)

    In the blog post that teases character deaths, she mentions that she is making this announcement "with a bitter heart". This suggests that the characters that will be killed off are characters that she herself is fond of in a way and/or characters that she knows that readers will be devastated by. While Setta and Tess' deaths are tragic, especially knowing the way in which they died, we never really get to know them and honestly their deaths were highly predictable seeing as we did not see them in the first flashback.

    In my opinion the ones that are most likely to die soon afterwards would be Kougyoku or Hakuei. I feel as though if characters who are more in a grey area like Sinbad, Kouen, and Hakuryuu are the ones with the death flags then their deaths should come much later after more story development.
    Last edited by Ryuusu; July 25, 2014 at 01:09 PM.

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