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Thread: Toriko 216 Discussion Thread

  1. #61
    MangaHelper 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Impossibility's Avatar
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    Re: Toriko 216 Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Zehahaha View Post
    @Impossibility

    Seems like the author doesn't agree with you



    If it was truly about endurance and strength or speed, it wouldn't be like this, there would be a time limit, a unique path filled with beasts not two paths one with beasts and the other no...

    Again, if you've been reading this manga, you'd understand that there's no such a thing as a super delicious ingredient and a normal ingredient, it all comes to the cook and his cooking skills, something that Komatsu has, as he passed that test and made a delicious dish with just what was left, considering other cooks took the " best ingredients "

    And as you can see, Komatsu could've taken his time to finish the triathlon, since there's no time limit. The point of coming first is to get the best ingredients and best ustensils, no time limit at all, those are great advantages yes, but in the end, only the cooking skills matter, so Komatsu could've taken few ingredients, and take the safest route, and would still win. It's you people who refuse to see what's all this about and keep on saying " without Buranchi he wouldn't have done this and that "

    And I don't need to remind you about how much of a genius he is right ? He finished Century Soup before even learning Food Honor, he has been hailed a genius by Livebearer, Yuda, Chiru, Setsuno and every single cook who participated in cooking the Medicinal Mochi, his talent has been acknowledged by Staajyun too and even Ichiryuu and Melk, and that is without even stepping into GW yet and without having Gourmet Cells...
    The author doesn't disagree with me. It was the comments of the host. And let's hone in on one of the lines in the text you were so generous to provide:

    Quote Quote:
    Of course, those with faster times will be able to get more tasty ingredients.
    And the slower ones will have to compensate with their cooking skill!!
    Obviously if cooking skills have to be utilised to compensate for something, it's not all about cooking ability and the ingredients are not equal.

    And your argument that the manga suggests that there is no difference in class between ingredients is just ridiculous. That is the entire point of the manga. Why is everyone on the planet going after God if it isn't better than what's around? What is the point of individuals going out and risking their lives to procure ingredients that are no different from the ones they can get around the corner? Why do the chefs choose certain ingredients over others? You might be able to argue that there is nothing that is useless as an ingredient, but there is definitely a difference in the quality of ingredients, and to suggest otherwise is counter to the manga.

    Your second paragraph is the same as you've already said before, I've already addressed Buranchi's, and Zebra's, contributions to Komatsu challenge:

    Quote Quote:
    I've already said that I question whether or not Komatsu wouldv've been able to finish the triathlon without Buranchi. Even before he finished the swin component, Zebra had to save him. And I keep on seeing references to the absence of any time limit, and I keep looking for that condition, but I've yet to see where that is stated. Could you point me to where that is being said, or are you just taking the absence of an explicit time limit being stated as evidence that there was no time limit.

    Buranchi would probably have dropped out if it were not for Komatsu, but that doesn't change the fact that after he had decided to remain, he aided Komatsu extensively. Buranchi shared ingredients that he could easily have taken for himself once he realised their potential, he also allowed Komatsu to finish the triathlon in far better physical condition than he would've if he had attempted to complete it by himself. Both are rather important. For all we know, Komatsu's place could've very well been 50, and that improved physical condition could've given him the edge over the chef placed at 51. The fact remains that Komatsu was in a better position, and better shape, than he would've been without Buranchi's aid.
    And I don't need to be reminded that Komatsu is a genius, or of his notable accomplishments. Although, I feel it necessary to point out that the individuals he's up against are masters with accomplishments equal to, and in many cases far greater, than his own. They have the cooking ability to meet his own, and they have the clear advantage in terms of endurance, which is also apparently important for chefs, and lots of other abilities to aid them in their aim to become the top chef. I don't think that it's chance that the chefs that have won the Cooking Fest are absolute beasts in every sense of the word.

  2. #62
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member nyamonyamo's Avatar
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    Re: Toriko 216 Discussion Thread

    I'll just state some over pointers so its easier to read:

    Facts
    Host did not mention time limit, even when matsu took a long time to finish swimming.
    Zebra only help matsu float for a few secs before setsuno remind him
    There are difference in ingredient and way of cooking that makes one a top chef
    Komatsu put a handicap on himself making him even with the final racer

    Deduction/Speculation
    Even if buranchi took all the ingredients, matsu could still use the rice on the beach, or with his godlike food luck he probably found a fish while swimming.
    The marathon could probably just a means to work the crowd, wager bets etc. Certainly its more exciting than just cooking.
    Host did not mention anyone failing at the race part so it means even the 100th person manage to finish the race. That means matsu with his skill and experience can finish it himself.
    It wasnt mention that his cooking is the best merely just in the top 50. With garbage-like ingredients and normal cooking utensil he manage to beat 50 contestant. That is his skill he manage it on his own.
    With his food honor he passed the top 32 meaning even in top 50 there are some chef that does not have food honor. So here base on his ingredient, utensils and skill he is in top 32 without any outside help. This is what the author wants to show us. The key event here is to be able to cook your way into finals, the race part is just eye candy. Probably just to show off the cooks and their menu, serve as a mean to introduce the chefs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    And I don't need to be reminded that Komatsu is a genius, or of his notable accomplishments. Although, I feel it necessary to point out that the individuals he's up against are masters with accomplishments equal to, and in many cases far greater, than his own. They have the cooking ability to meet his own, and they have the clear advantage in terms of endurance, which is also apparently important for chefs, and lots of other abilities to aid them in their aim to become the top chef. I don't think that it's chance that the chefs that have won the Cooking Fest are absolute beasts in every sense of the word.
    Usually in a manga an event will happen to change the status quo. Herald by new comers to change the old ways of how things go. Here we have komatsu with his latent abilities to change things:
    Beat setsuno in century soup
    Improve yudas mochi which is impossible according to the assembled top chef
    Show chizuru new ways of cooking shy ingredients so everyone can taste
    make staajyun dreaming about matsu food luck
    Impress melk with his knife

    Its safe to say he earned his spot in the finals base on his skills. Not because he had help

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  4. #63
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Buggy's Avatar
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    Re: Toriko 216 Discussion Thread

    Don't really get all the Komatsu hate lately. Since last two chapters he was the most likeable character in manga and now his incredible accomplishments are being undermined.

    Lets deal with few facts:

    1.Buranchi helped Komatsu. No one can argue that. Did he want that? No. Did he need that? All the facts point to no.

    2.Zebra helped him during swimming with sound jacket, FIVE SECONDS LATER Komatsu tells him to cancel sound jacket. Did he want help? No. Would he have drowned for those five seconds?

    3.Komatsu cleared Cooking challenge on his own, Death Scale cooking on his own and Whole Island cooking on his own. Hmm, maybe Toriko bribed the judges what do you say?

    4.In everything seen so far, he's received help in cycling challenge, something he also didn't want or need, AND also didn't utilize the benefits of it. Really don't know how to put it more simply.

    The lengths you people would go to undermine characters is unheard of. You should stop acting like he's defeated Zaus already. It's perfectly fine not to like a character, but don't twist the known manga facts.

  5. #64
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: Toriko 216 Discussion Thread

    The author is clearly giving us a hint that Komatsu reached that far fair and square. That's why he bothered mentioning that even though Komatsu finished the cycling part ahead of the others, he still chose the normal utensils. And also, the mentioning of the safe but longer path is to give us the idea that even without Buranchi, Komatsu can still clear that part of the competition.

    Komatsu is like a wolf in sheep's clothing. He has the potential to be greater than any of the chefs in the competition (when it comes to cooking ofcourse). I guess no one would disagree to that.
    I wouldn't even be surprised if he turns out to be Frohze's descendant.
    So if Buranchi who doesn't have food luck and can't hear the voice of ingredients have win as a rookie, then why can't Komatsu?

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  7. #65
    MangaHelper 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Impossibility's Avatar
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    Re: Toriko 216 Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Buggy View Post
    The lengths you people would go to undermine characters is unheard of. You should stop acting like he's defeated Zaus already. It's perfectly fine not to like a character, but don't twist the known manga facts.
    I don't dislike Komatsu, I'm just disappointed in the manner in which the Cooking Fest has been handled. I'm not undermining Komatsu, the author does. Your response shows the aid Komatsu receives, and then assumes that it was irrelevant. You admit yourself that Zebra helped him with his sound jacket, and then quickly suggest he wouldn't have drowned anyway. How do you come to that conclusion? Because five seconds later he was swimming again. He was in the process of drowning. If Zebra hadn't saved him, and then Setsuna hadn't given him the pep talk, he probably would've failed and been at the bottom of the sea. There was nothing to suggest that he was suddenly going to right himself, and harden his resolve, without the intervention of those two. You state that there are no facts that suggest that Buranchi's aid was of any help in Komatsu's challenge. The problem is that there are barely any details in the chapter. We don't know the condition of the weaker chefs when they finished the triathlon, and how that might've affected their cooking. We don't know if everyone finished. We don't know if Komatsu just barely made it through, and his better condition was the factor that made him pass through. We don't know; which was one of my initial criticisms of the chapter. After Buranchi's aid, everythig Komatsu might've accomplished on his own is quickly glossed over. We have quite a few individuals coming to Komatsu's aid, and then he's through. That's it. There is mention that Komatsu doesn't utilise the Melk Knife, but that doesn't change that Buranchi befriended Komatsu and shared ingredients that he probably, based on his personality, would usually have kept for himself and he also put Komatsu across the finish line in much better physical condition and with much more time than if Komatsu had attmepted to finish the triathlon himself. As for the other challenges, those results aren't being questioned. Your smarmy questions aren't needed to get Komatsu success across. I would've liked to see Komatsu's performance on the challenges that lead up to his battle against Zaus.

  8. #66
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member nyamonyamo's Avatar
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    Re: Toriko 216 Discussion Thread

    Its not really hate i think some people are just disappointed that komatsu didnt get strong like setsuno and co. To me matsu condition is really ideal right now. There are some things that only weak guys can do. But matsu is far away from being weak. His strength and endurance is top notch. Hes just timid lol.

    Personally i dont think its wrong if matsu beat zaus in cooking. So far all the points are showing that matsu is capable of taking the top guys. He already showed them how to get things done. If he manage to beat zaus that means he is not the final boss in this game. Someone else is

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  10. #67
    MangaHelper 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Impossibility's Avatar
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    Re: Toriko 216 Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by nyamonyamo View Post
    I'll just state some over pointers so its easier to read:

    Facts
    Host did not mention time limit, even when matsu took a long time to finish swimming.
    Zebra only help matsu float for a few secs before setsuno remind him
    There are difference in ingredient and way of cooking that makes one a top chef
    Komatsu put a handicap on himself making him even with the final racer
    First, the absence of any mention of a time limit doesn't eliminate the possibility, especially considering that it is a reasonable assumption.
    Second fact, accurate.
    Third, spot on.
    Fourth, absolute speculation. He might've equalled the field on utenslis, but that doesn't mean everything was equal. Were the other chefs in terrible physical condition, or simply exhausted, after the triathlon. One would expect there to be serious effects on the condition of some of the less monstrous chefs after the race. Komatsu was probably in much better condition than the other chefs simply because he was whisked through the race.

    Quote Quote:
    Deduction/Speculation
    Even if buranchi took all the ingredients, matsu could still use the rice on the beach, or with his godlike food luck he probably found a fish while swimming.
    The marathon could probably just a means to work the crowd, wager bets etc. Certainly its more exciting than just cooking.
    Host did not mention anyone failing at the race part so it means even the 100th person manage to finish the race. That means matsu with his skill and experience can finish it himself.
    It wasnt mention that his cooking is the best merely just in the top 50. With garbage-like ingredients and normal cooking utensil he manage to beat 50 contestant. That is his skill he manage it on his own.
    With his food honor he passed the top 32 meaning even in top 50 there are some chef that does not have food honor. So here base on his ingredient, utensils and skill he is in top 32 without any outside help. This is what the author wants to show us. The key event here is to be able to cook your way into finals, the race part is just eye candy. Probably just to show off the cooks and their menu, serve as a mean to introduce the chefs.
    First, pure speculation, and quite simply suggesting that Komatsu shouldn't have to do anything because he's just going to get lucky.
    Second, the marathon existed to show off the endurance of the chefs, which was mentioned to be important for them. Although, I'd agree that the excitment for the fans didn't hurt.
    Third, the host doesn't say anything at the end of the race. It's just boxes running through Komatsu's path to his battle with Zaus. So there is nothing that points to the status of the other chefs at the end of the triathlon. Based on what we saw, it is distinctly possible that some individuals didn't finish the race.
    Fourth, right with the exception of the final sentence, which is basically the disagreement we're having.
    I agree with most of your final deduction, although I should point out that I am in no way questioning the other challenges because there was nothing to suggest that he didn't complete those challenges purely on his own skill.


    Quote Quote:
    Its safe to say he earned his spot in the finals base on his skills. Not because he had help
    It would be nice to say that. Unfortunately, that is not the impression that I was left with. I would've liked nothing more than to see Komatsu go through the Cooking Fest without any aid from others whatsoever. Unfortunately, the tendency to have soemone come to Komatsu' rescue semingly couldn't be ignored during the Fest.
    Last edited by Impossibility; December 23, 2012 at 05:48 AM.

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  12. #68
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member nyamonyamo's Avatar
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    Re: Toriko 216 Discussion Thread

    I could relate to that tho. Matsu's hard work is not shown in here. Just a few off panels and we were left with just guessing. If its naruto you can bet every top chef will get some flashback and even matsu picking his nose will be drawn over and over again~

  13. #69
    MangaHelper 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity
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    Re: Toriko 216 Discussion Thread

    Buggy
    Quote Quote:
    Setsuno, Zaus, Juda could have taken all of the ingredients and make Buranchi, Komatsu and the rest of the chefs immediately lose. Does that make Buranchi, and all the other chefs trash?
    1. I never called Komatsu trash. So I don't get your point. I just poiinted that he is physically weak and always gets help0 in any challenge, so he practically never accomplishes anything on his own exept for actual cooking and it's also looks sometimes as a plot-induced stupidity, since sometimes it gets to an illogical limit, when it is stated that Komatsu not only manages to do something in 5 minutes, but actually manages to do it in two and then spends other 3 in order to simplify the cooking method...
    2. I was talking about the particular situation, when Komatsu came last and Buranchi who was at the same moment there as well and could easily take all the ingridients, but didn't do it, but actually helped Komatsu to get more ingridients and get to the final stage of the Triatlon. Without such a help Komatsu would have been the last in the Tournament no matter how you look at it...

    Quote Quote:
    I wouldn't consider Komatsu defeating Zaus like it's a given, nor call it bad writing at this stage. Everything we've seen so far in Toriko is the exact opposite of bad writing, so I believe author deserves a little benefit of the doubt.
    Well, it would be strange at the least for Komatsu to defeat Zaus already, because there won't be that much room for him to grow.

    Quote Quote:
    Don't really get all the Komatsu hate lately. Since last two chapters he was the most likeable character in manga and now his incredible accomplishments are being undermined.
    Well, I wouldn't call it Komatsu's hate. I've always had the same opinion about Komatsu since the begining of the manga. He has one of the thickest plot armours in the entire manga history and his "luck" comes most of the times to the absurd limit and he practically never accomplishes anything on his own exept for actual cooking, so I don't get why we should not mention it as it is a part of the manga as well.

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