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Translations: Gintama 515 (2)
xXan is saying it as if we weren't told that Minato couldn't complete his rasengan but knew about FRS. Bad idea to assume Minato would know FRS unless another character knew because Minato might not have fuuton, FRS seems to be too powerful, and no other character would have used FRS, so it doesn't make sense Minato could either. Especially if no one knew about it.
It's different from assuming Tobi can use all Rinnegan jutsu because we've seen Nagato use it. It's Madara's eyes, not his, but he was able to use all jutsu associated with Rinnegan. Tobi has Madara's eye, so why can't he do the same? It's Madara's own freakin' eyes in the first place, so even as Edo Tensei, Madara should be able to use ALL Rinnegan jutsu.
Which makes the Uchiha beat Hashirama and Naruto. Shinra Tensei, ability to absorb chakra, and six paths give Tobi tons of power to deal with Naruto and Hashirama.
What about Madara being able to use the chakra absorption? Madara did teach Tobi a lot of things before he died, from the looks of the flashback. Rinnegan doesn't really need powers to be worked for, otherwise Nagato would have died when he was a kid. They apparently need some kind of knowledge to use, and Tobi should have enough knowledge from Madara to knwo how to use Shinra Tensei and other Rinnegan jutsu. Hell, he was able to use six paths without any apparent knowledge or mentioned knowledge. Why can't he use other jutsu as well?
And I'm pretty sure six paths would be one of the most difficult jutsu to use.
Firm evidence or not, there's far more implication that he CAN do it than there is that he CAN'T do it. Which is enough for me.Originally Posted by xXan
Reasons to believe Madara can see through clone deception
1: He can see through Moku Bunshin deception used by the greatest ninja to ever live.
2: The manga scan I posted.
Reasons to believe he can't see through clone deception:
1: Because nobody else can
...and that's it.
its a perfect copy of the user down to the cellular level.
Meaning it has every advantage a normal Kage Bushin has, plus the fact that the body is the same one of the user, making it a perfect copy not made only of chakra.
Just my 2 cents
Precisely. Hell, they are more durable too, meaning they don't die in one shot. Meaning a clone can get hit once, fooling the attacker into thinking it's the real ninja because it didn't "die" yet only to leave an opportunity for the real ninja to attack.
Last edited by ninjabot; December 20, 2012 at 02:12 AM.
The diference from Rasengan to FRS is not bigger then from chakra shield to belive Madara/Tobi can use CT and Super ST for instance. Not only that most of the ST techs where ONLY showed by Nagato. What you whant me to belive Madara/Obito can start using robot parts? How about CT, Super ST and so on?
Now Minato we know he was going to add his element and failed(he did not had the time), yes there is no evidence but its just about 90% probability its FUTON.
Obito can control like puppets said Pein jutsu but he can't use jutsus trough them (at least he did not show it). Also he was using the power of his eyes, PLURAL. He has only 1 Rinnegan so said control was chaneled trough his sharingan to. Rinnegan was probably for Mazo sync. Of course now we know he can use Rinne Tensei true but going to need evidence he can use the rest.
Having the tools does not mean you can do something. Sasuke had EMS/MS but had NO bloody idea how to do Izanagi/Izanami. We don't know if some jutsus are developed by Nagato and its just him that knows how to do it.
Of course you can belive what you wish but i will not consider him able to use jutsus before there is some mencion of his ability to use them expecialy considering he has 1 eye. There must be SOME drawback from having only 1.
Would Monopoly money do? :P
We have Madara himself having no idea the clone going poof before him was a clone. Its not just your "1: Because nobody else can". We have a scan him having no idea it was a clone.
Also wood element its not exacly stated to have the same properties of a Shadow Clone. Just because he can see trough that it does not mean he can see trough SC. Also the scan you posted (as i already said) had 2 Naruto's RIGHT IN FRONT OF HIM. Of course 1 was a clone, Madara did not state he could see trough clones like with Hashirama, he could be making an educated gues considering you would have your clone up in front (obviously) so you don't get hit.
Just because it reproducess the user it does not mean it also can split the chakra like SC can. At least i don't remember anywhere stating this. Could be wrong. It is also a completly diferent tech.
Also SC replicates the user completly to, only diference is the SC is not organic. SC are perfect replicas of the original and are able to split the chakra evenly.
Its a true copy. Its 100% the original. If you could cut it and draw blood you would get the samd DNA as the original.
Just because Madara can see trough 1 type of clone that is completly diferent then a SC does not mean he can see trough SC to. They work diferently.
If you're talking about the scan you posted when Naruto was in Bijuu Mode, I don't believe that one for the simple fact that the Naruto he was looking at never disappeared whenever the Sage Mode Naruto came to save Kakashi.Originally Posted by xXan
No, Madara didn't see both Naruto's in my scan. He saw only one and knew immediately that it was a fake. He even asked Obito where the original Naruto was because he couldn't see him anywhere. Yes he was in the same direction, but he was also considerably further away in front of Killerbee. The Sharingan gives color to chakra, but it doesn't increase sight distance. That's the Byakugan.Quote:
---------- Post added at 04:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:29 PM ----------
As for Mokuton Bunshin not working the same way as Kage Bunshin, one would assume that would make KB easier to see through, since they're just chakra while Moku Bunshin are made of chakra and replicated cells. That SHOULD make it harder to tell wood clones from regular ones. Add to that the fact that literally every clone we've ever seen that's not a Genjutsu has worked the same way (trick the enemy into thinking it's you) with the exception of some extra added effects (clay bunshin trap you, raiton bunshin paralyze you, bunshin bakuha explode)... there's been nothing to imply Kage Bunshin is any more deceptive than any other clone.
I would agree with you if Mokuton Bushins weren't showed to be able to do jutsu and to have similar capacities of the original ( after he was "discovered", Yamato's clone was undetected by neither Orochimaru nor Kabuto.Quote:
Also note how Madara calls the copy perfect, meaning there was no difference between the original and the copy, and only Madara's superior Sharingan could see through it.
Also do note how Madara's handsign is the same one Kagebushin uses:
this, with also counting how Kage Bushin was in Hashirama's Forbidden Scroll, hints as a link between Kage Bushin and Mokuton Bushin.
Hell, it's confirmed Tobi can do Rinne Tensei no jutsu like Nagato did. What more do you need? Too many signs show that Tobi and Madara can use all jutsu that Nagato can. Maybe not some without training, but I'm sure Madara knew the jutsu and trained Tobi, who likely trained Nagato.
Ninety percent? Where'd you get that from? It's only a 20% probability that it's fuuton. Are you using Naruto as basis that Minato likely has fuuton?Quote:
Yes he can, apparently. The reason why he didn't is because of plot, Tobi himself confirming that he didn't want to waste chakra when the trio knows how to counter the Rinnegan jutsu, since it took him a lot of chakra to control the jinchuuriki.Quote:
No, we don't, there's enough evidence he can use the rest. He used six paths, can apparently use Rinne Tensei, and claimed to use soul grabbing ability. Madara himself was able to use chakra absorption. Tobi confirmed he didn't use Rinnegan against the trio because he couldn't afford to waste chakra using Rinnegan jutsu that could be countered, since it was troublesome to control the jinchuuriki. He also didn't have enough time to react to surprises like Naruto being in the other dimension, or he couldn't use jutsu in the other dimension, or at least Rinnegan. Tobi's an idiot, before you say he had enough time to react.
There's no evidence he can't use any Rinnegan jutsu, especially after all the reasons I listed. So yes, he can use all Rinnegan jutsu in this fight until CONFIRMED otherwise.
Madara just got revived, and he was able to use chakra absorption without a problem. Tobi got his Rinnegan from Nagato's dead body, but knew how to do six paths. Sasuke didn't have knowledge, but Tobi and Madara likely did.Quote:
Apparently, jutsu like the robot arm and the Tensei are Rinnegan jutsu. Even if they were made by Nagato, Rinnegan's power can let Madara or Tobi use the same power too.
Maybe so, or maybe not.Quote:
But there's enough evidence to show that Tobi can use all Rinnegan jutsu, even the ability to bring life back to a corpse with just one eye. Like I said, if you're so strongly against this, provide good evidence. Using Minato and FRS is not a good way to compare because we don't know Minato's element, and FRS was never mentioned until Naruto used it against Kakuzu. No one knew about it. I'm pretty sure Kakashi would know something about FRS, considering it's his master's jutsu.
Maybe the drawback is that he has half the strength of Rinnegan jutsu?
Of course Mokuton clones can do jutsus. They are replicas of the original. Thing is Madara's clones aparently had to use some inferior version of Susano compared to the one Madara himself was riding in. Could be a indication of the inability to use jutsus to the full potancial.
How perfect it is... Not that perfect considering Madara can see trough it (somehow). If it was perfect then you would not be able to tell the diference. Some diferences MUST be there or Madara would not be able to tell the original and the clone appart.
Also yes we do have similar handsigns and what not as both of them are clones but how they work... Well its diferent.
Also why did Madara not know the clone that got hit with that Bijudama was not the original? I gues we will get the answer to "does it work for SC to" before this fight is done as after Juubi goes down Madara will engage himself. I am not stating Madara can't tell them appart but i am poiting to the fact that we don't know for sure. If not for that page when Madara goes "??? wtf was that a clone to" things would be diferent but after that event i am starting to question his ability in this thing.
And you have no real evidence that he can, what you have is conjecture. What you are telling me is that Nagato can do it so Madara/Tobi can. Even the fact that Obito has 1 eye and needs to be taken into consideration. What i am telling you is that we have the posibility of them not knowing or not having the ability (in Tobi's case) to do 1 or more and we should not asume they can before they demonstrate it.Quote:
Its irrelevant who's eyes it is. Give Naruto EMS and make him use Susano and see if he can do it... Just having the tools does not = the ability to perform them.
Sasuke has ITACHI'S EYES but can he do Izanami? Of course not. He does not know HOW.
Just because Nagato and the other 2 have the same tools does not mean those 2 can do it. Tobi does not even have 2 eyes.
Sasuke can do Amaterasu, MS genjutsu and Susano just like Itachi can do them so he can also do Izanami. What more do you need? Just because they share SOME jutsus it does not mean they share them ALL.Quote:
Now Madara did not have rinnegan, Obito did not have Rinnegan so why would he even show Tobi this? How would he even show him? Genjutsu world? Perhaps. Thing is in the little we got from them i noticed nothing about Rinnegan jutsus, not even a small indication.
Not stating its not true but you have to understand we don't know what he can do. Just asuming he can does not sit right with me.
Well aparently FRS is something to be used with Futon as Kakashi failed to add Raiton to it. Also i am considering the fact that he is his father and how Naruto is showed to overcome his father and inherit stuff from him. As i said i am just about 90% sure that if Kishi decides to reveal Minato's afinity he is going to have Futon there. Again and as i said i have no evidence of this, its something i belive.Quote:
You have evidence that he can use SOME of them. Nothing more. You are using the fact that he has some and the fact that he has a rinegan like Nagato to back your theory and that is not right. Just because 1 has the same tools and some of the abilities as another ninja it does not mean he can do the same jutsus.Quote:
Also Tobi is NOT an idiot. He is one of the smartest individuals in the manga. Its just the plot forcing him to forget his jutsus... Think about it man, this man was running Aka from the damn shadows. He is a master manipulator and so on. He has tactics just as well.
People only started with Tobi = moron after finding out about the fact that he is Obito and hating the idea so they started to hate on the caracter. Not stating i like this fact but Tobi is not an idiot.
Does not matter he was just revived. How Tobi was using the Pein jutsu is also not the same as Nagato. He just used the overwhelming power of his visual keke to control them. All of them where doing jutsus from the jins. Not really rinnegan abilities. Nagato's Pein could not use the realms own abilities (from when they where alive).Quote:
Now we also don't know that Madara knew all the damn abilities from the rinnegan. He got it when he was damn old and then put his eyes in Nagato. Nagato had a TON of years of teach himself and learn. No evidence that Madara even had time to practice with his rinnegan. He was old and sick and just an old fart when he got this power. Close to death. Of course he did pull the Mazo but teaching himself offensive moves and going into battle when he was hiding? I can't see this 1.
I don't think you understand what i am stating. I am stating we have no clear evidence that Madara/Obito can use all jutsus and we should not asume they can. I am not stating they CAN'T. I am just stating we should not asume they can.Quote:
I can't provide any evidence to the fact that they can't do it as we have NONE(aside from some posibilities and conjecture). What i am stating is that we don't have clear evidence of there ability with the rinnegan and that we should not asume they can.
If you don't like Minato's example then use the Itachi/Sasuke one.
What drawback it is... I don't know. That is what i keep telling you. What if Obito (he is the main thing we are arguing here not Madara) can do ST but its damn week? Would that even be relevant? Can he actualy trow a damn CT when it was that draining on Nagato with 2 damn eyes? If he can use CT how powerfull would it be considering Tobi only has 1 eye? Can he super ST? How powerfull would it be if he can.... If you ask me its not FAIR to asume Obito can pull the same things Nagato had.
Another point is that Tobi stated he WOULD DIE if he would use RT but Konan only stated about Nagato that he would die because of his low chakra at that moment. So why is 1 ending up dead no matter what and the other just because he is low on chakra? We have a ton of ifs and buts and why's... But of course not telling you whant you can belive. I just told you that asuming Obito can do the same things as illogical( to me at least).
Yes the one in my scan. That Naruto poped with Kakashi just above him, Madara had a long look at him and he did not know it was a clone. After he whent poof Madara was asking "wtf another clone".
In the scan you showed Naruto and the original are direcly in his line of sight, both of the Narutos where in Madara view. No farther then he could see with NORMAL eyes. I mean he was just in front of Bee. No idea what Madara was talking about, perhaps he belived that was a clone to. You have 1 Naruto in front of Madara (the clone) and then you have Kakashi and Gai and behind Kakashi and Gai its Naruto and Bee. Naruto is just in front of Bee. Madara would need to be blind as a damn bat not to see Naruto.
Also and yes there is no indication that KB is more effective and MB but there is no evidence that its not. Also it does not matter one is replicates cells and what not when a KB is a real complete copy of the original.
To the point Madara could not notice Naruto was a clone i belive he can look trough them to but now i am not sure of this. Going to need more from him. I mean he LOOKED at the clone for a long time... Why did he not know? Perhaps he can't tell SM clones appart but he can non-SM ones?
Last edited by xXan; December 21, 2012 at 02:47 AM.
Do you really think Madara can't use ALL the same jutsu even more the Nagato? I mean the Rinnengan is Madara's!
It understandable that you question Tobi, but questioning Madara is just .... Crazy.
Sasuke still has the potential to do Izanami, just like how Tobi has the potential to even do Shinra Tensei. Even if it's Nagato's move, Rinnegan allows Tobi to use ST even if it's not Rinnegan jutsu.
So? He apparently doesn't need two eyes to use Six Paths, Rinne Tensei, or Human Path's ability, why would he need two eyes to use others? Maybe he needs two to create jutsu or something.
But Madara should be able to use every jutsu Nagato has shown. I dunno how this is even debatable, especially since he was the one who taught Tobi, who apparently taught Nagato. I don't recall if Tobi was ordered to teach Nagato how to use his Rinnegan.
Nothing indicates Sasuke does NOT have the potential for Izanami or Izanagi, in fact it's implied that he has the ability to use either. The difference is though, Madara and TObi apparently knew how to use at least one Rinnegan jutsu and showed knowledge of how to use at least two Rinnegan jutsu. Sasuke himself didn't know how to use Izanagi or Izanami, so using Sasuke here doesn't work.Quote:
Didn't Madara say he'd train Tobi and teach him everything? I don't see how this doesn't include Rinnegan either, especially when Tobi knew how to use Six Paths and Madara knew how to use chakra absorption even though he was dead for one or two decades.
It's not just an assumption. It's assumption based on what we've seen. There's no evidence whatsoever that Minato has fuuton or Naruto has suiton, but there's evidence Sasuke holds the potential to do Izanami and Izanagi, and that Tobi and Madara can use all Rinnegan jutsu unless the manga itself states otherwise. Tobi never once said he couldn't use all jutsu associated with Rinnegan - the only time that was ever mentioned was when he admitted that he didn't want to waste chakra on something that could be countered.
That's grasping at straws. There's no evidence whatsoever that completed rasengan only works with fuuton, just that Minato didn't have enough time, and Kakashi couldn't add raiton. For all we know, raiton, suiton, katon, and doton could work as well. If Naruto also had raiton like Kakashi, we'd probably see raiton: rasengan.Quote:
As long as you don't treat what you believe like fact and claim Minato knows fuuton.
I'm theorizing he can use all of them because nothing has indicated otherwise. Tobi even implied he can use any Rinnegan jutsu when he confirmed the only reason why he's not using the other jutsu was to save chakra, since it's not easy controlling jinchuuriki. It makes no sense that he can use Rinne Tensei and Six Paths with one eye, but not any other jutsu as well.Quote:
Unless proven or shown otherwise, it kinda does. From Kakashi, we know that not all Mangekyo have same jutsu, at least out of family. Itachi and Sasuke have same jutsu but with different level of mastery. WE can assume that each Mangekyo is different based on what family the eyes come from, like SHisui being mainly genjutsu, Tobi being space/time ninjutsu, and Sasuke and Itachi having genjutsu and ninjutsu. It's also confirmed that two eyes are required for Susano'o, and that it's rare even among MS, so it's also safe to assume not everyone will have SUsano'o even if they have powerful MS. It's also just as safe to assume Tobi and Kakashi won't be able to use Susano'o because they only have one eye. WE can also assume Sasuke can use Izanagi and Izanami as well, because Itachi has said that the jutsu were used/spammed a lot. All Sasuke needs is to know how to use either.
So yeah, plenty of facts here. Little to no facts or confirmation that Tobi and/or Madara can use limited amount of Rinnegan jutsu.
thanks to Madara. tobi has not come out of most of his fights unscathed either, he even got surprised by Hiraishin v2, his own master's jutsu. Though at least in this fight, plot won't stop him from absorbing bijuu dama or pushing away Mokuton, or even using Chibaku Tensei.Quote:
Tobi used Six Paths on Edo Tensei jinchuuriki. Nagato used Six Paths on dead bodies and put his own power in it. Tobi and Nagato used Six Paths in different ways on different people. Tobi's version would be considered better because they were Edo Tensei jinchuuriki with their own power, supplied the power of their bijuu through Gedo Mazo connection. Nagato's version was just dead bodies with Nagato's own power. Nagato didn't need to expand as much chakra over his paths as Tobi had to to keep them under control.Quote:
This may not be a 100% fact, but Tobi confirms he chose not to use any Rinnegan's power. Another implication he can use all Rinnegan power we've seen so far.
Then how did he know about chakra absorption or Rinne Tensei no jutsu? Nagato didn't even show any signs of knowing Rinnegan jutsu until Yahiko's death, and the only time Rinnegan jutsu was mentioned before that was when Konan told him not to summon the Mazo. This happened after Tobi met with Nagato and his group, so for all you know, Tobi taught Nagato how to use Rinnegan. And considering Madara's main limitation was that he had to stay connected to Gedo Mazo, there's no evidence he didn't have time to practice. He must have, because there's no way he'd be able to asspull chakra absorption out of nowhere. Or even know about Rinne Tensei. Madara didn't need to go into battle.Quote:
We have enough evidence that they can use all jutsu. There's no evidence that they can't. Tobi and Madara have never said they were unable to use a Rinnegan jutsu, Tobi can even use one or two of the most powerful or complex Rinnegan jutsu with one eye. There's enough evidence to assume they can use all Rinnegan jutsu.Quote:
Doesn't work either as we know Sasuke didn't know about Izanagi or Izanami, but still has potential to use it. Tobi and Madara seem to know about all Rinnegan jutsu, and Tobi has said he chose not to use all of the jutsu associated with Rinnegan, especially with his paths.Quote:
I'd agree with you if Tobi or Madara didn't show they could use one Rinnegan or imply that they could use other Rinnegan, but both sadly happened.
It was draining on Nagato because he was low on chakra. And true, and we can assume it's possibly weaker, but that depends, considering Tobi's Six Paths was no different - in fact he was doing well even though he was controlling Edo Tensei jinchuurikis and confiding the bijuu. If the drawback was weaker power, then Tobi would have failed at controlling the Edo Tensei paths.Quote:
I don't see how it's illogical when there's enough evidence to prove he could do all these jutsu with no signs of drawbacks. We could also attribute Tobi and Madara thinking Tobi would die as assumption based on Nagato dying. Tobi probably thought Nagato died because that's the price to pay.Quote:
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/567/12 I hope this is enough proof Obito can use ALL the paths powers just like Nagato.