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Translations: Bleach 595 (2)
By acceling at Taijutsu, he should've mentioned how it can make a ninja whose actually inferior in Taijutsu to his opponent, outright defeat them in close range combat thanks to predictive abilities.Originally Posted by efreet
Nope. Izanagi and Izanami. Niether require MS. Izanagi is said to require Senju DNA, but I'm sure that's only for when one wants to further the time limit. And Sasuke's basic Genjutsu was powerful enough to negate a B-rank Sage Mode enhanced Genjutsu cast on Itachi. He had his MS active, but it was called "Sharingan Genjutsu". Not Mangekyou Sharingan Genjutsu.Quote:
I agree with this one. Actually. Though while it wouldn't make your ninjutsu better than anyone elses you'd certainly learn jutsu faster than others by copying them from people.Quote:
Nah, Izanagi does require Senju DNA. With the recent reveal that Tobi has senju blood, it's pretty much confirmed. Unless they purchase some black market Senju Juice that's not a viable option. I'll give you Izanami, but that's a lofty price to pay for a win. I'm of the assumption that Sasuke's sharingan genjutsu was still above average, weaker than Tsukiyomi, but much more affective than the average genjutsu.Quote:
No arguments here. Again, it allows more variety for ninjutsu for the Uchiha, it just doesn't make them better at it. If they are bad at ninjutsu, the Sharingan isn't going to magically make them better. They can use it to practice quicker perhaps, but that's about it.Quote:
Last edited by eefrit; January 01, 2013 at 09:46 PM.
Except you can't deal internal damage against an opponent you can't touch thanks to their predictive abilities. Being a superior Taijutsu user means you're more effective in close range with your Taijutsu against another Taijutsu user. But that doesn't take into consideration abilities like say, a Sharingan, a Raiton Armor, or Kimimaro's kekkei genkai. The reason I'm bringing taijutsu oriented ninjutsu into the conversation is because Jyuuken can be considered nintaijutsu like Raikage's Raiton armor (using condensed chakra to amplify your physical abilities for melee purposes).Originally Posted by efreet
Obito, yes. But whatabout the countless Uchiha that used Izanagi so often that it resulted in the creation of Izanami inorder to temper it's use? I can't realistically believe that the entire Uchiha clan were giving themselves Senju DNA or else we would've found a ninja other than Madara with a Rinnegan beforehand, since they all would've had to steal eyes from their siblings from wasting their eyes so often (resulting in EMS and, eventually, Rinnegan thanks to the dna). As for Sasuke's Genjutsu being above average, I'm assuming that's based on the fact that he's a prodigy. Still, it's vastly underpowered compared to characters like Itachi and Shisui. But what, if anything at all, implies that a non-prodigious Uchiha's basic Genjutsu wouldn't be naturally superior to the average Genjutsu? Obito was never a prodigy. He was garbage. And now he's controlling perfect Jinchuuriki with a 3 tomoe alone (or he did at one point).Originally Posted by efreet
Also we know that the Sharingan grows stronger the more strong the Uchiha is, meaning fodderUchihas wouldn't have an easy time.
On topic, I made a post while discussing with Rikudou King on how normal Hyuugas aren't all that behind normal Uchihas ( without taking into consideration Izanagi and Izanami of course ), and while I believe the Uchihas during Madara's time would shit on Hyuugas, the jokes during Fugaku times wouldn't have the supremacy assured.
I can't find the post, but I'll try to make the same points again
A and B are gonna fight.
A is a Hyuuga, and B is an Uchiha. Let's assume they have the same capacities ( strenght, speed, intelligence etc. ).
Genjutsu is a non-issue, since, even without the argument that Byakugan is immune to genjutsus, a Byakugan wielder can see near 360° despite not looking the Uchiha in the eye, so visual genjutsu is moot.
Ninjutsu, if we go by Sasuke's Part 1 standard, isn't all that much, I mean Katons are a joke, and Hyuugas have Kaiten anyway ( let's say the Hyuuga belongs to the main branch ) or even Vacuum Palm.
Taijutsu is where it gets tricky, Sharingan's method of precog should somewhat work for Byakugan too ( not as after-images, but as to see how the Uchiha powers his body with chakra to move ), as such the Sharingan's advantage shouldn't be too high.
And even if that weren't the case, Neji showed to be able to keep up with Naruto despite being slower, so the enhanced eyesight combined with the superior style should allow the Hyuuga to win a taijutsu match.
Let's say that's not the case, Byakugan can't see shit, all the Hyuuga has to do is remain on the defensive, the moment he parries a blow from the Uchiha he can hit him with Juuken just fine.
Weaponry is where the Uchiha could get the advantage, but weapons such as the 2 giant shurikens are useless against Kaiten, and if he gets trapped in wire he can blow it like Neji did against Kidomarou.
^ So you see, imo Hyuugas aren't all that far behind
No he didn't. Naruto didn't start countering Sasuke's Sharingan until he started using Kyuubi's chakra. Before that, even without the Sharingan active Sasuke was out-fighting Naruto, and only chose to use the CS because his Chidori couldn't beat the Rasengan and he wanted to soften him up for a clear shot. People keep finding different points to start the fight at inorder to negate certain events.Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood
That's inaccurate. The Genjutsu still alters your sight no matter how much you can see. Deidara had no ability to see Sasuke's eye thanks to the range and angle that they were at (Deidara even was looking to the side and Sasuke still managed to cast Genjutsu through eyesight). You don't need direct eye contact to cast visual Genjutsu. Peripheral vision is fine. And since the Byakugan sees in 359 degrees, there's literally only 1 degree where a Hyuuga would be protected from Genjutsu cast by an Uchiha. Whether they're hiding behind an obstacle or not.Quote:
Couple of points here: The reason Sasuke's Katon is considered unimpressive is because every person he ever hit with it was super enhanced in some manner or far out of his league. From Naruto being protected by a Kyuubi shroud, to Orochimaru being able to reginerate/having Sannin class durability and strength. If Sasuke were to hit Neji with a Goukakkyuu, even if it's only C rank, he would be downed instantly. Granted, he can't break through Kaiten with Goukakkyu, a Chidori would pop it like a PSG1 round through a soft boiled egg. Though we're actually referring to Fugaku's police force most likely, inwhich case they have access to Katon enfused Shuriken ala Housenka and that one attack Itachi used against Bee.Quote:
Going back to Sasuke's standard, he was a Genin using Chuunin class attacks. An actual Chuunin with greater chakra supply would've been capable of a larger, more destructive Goukakkyu.
Kakashi claims that Taijutsu is the only form of attack that is effective without the usage of chakra. So unless the Uchiha is relying on Shunshin or absolutely feels the need to powerup attacks with chakra they wouldn't be choreographing their attacks the way Jyuuken does.Quote:
Except the Uchiha would see the parry coming and block accordingly. A Hyuuga using 64 palms would be tantamount to Killerbee using his 8 sword style. The Uchiha would be pushed back, sure. They probably can't parry indefinately either. But the Hyuuga would be expending chakra over and over to no avail.Quote:
It's also important to remember that the average Hyuuga, just like the average Uchiha, were not all prodigies. There's probably no one else that can use 64 or 128 palms in the village aside from the upper echelon of ninja, and alot of them have shorter ranged eyesight aswell as weaker Kaiten.
But if a Karyuudan is being fired along the wire and they've been pinned to a tree the way Sasuke got Orochimaru, they likely can't expend enough chakra in time to protect from the full blast. Boobie trap fuuma shuriken like used against Itachi would be a help too as even though they can see in every angle, forcing them to dodge the blade also makes an opening.Quote:
Last edited by gnut; January 02, 2013 at 07:35 PM.
See from here, all Sasuke could manage was soft blows that didn't hurt Naruto at all ( thanks to natural stamina, toughness and probably Kyuubi's healing ), as such he resorted to Chidori, but even then he couldn't outpace Naruto, that's why he needed the CS1 to do it.
Here he confirms it, to create an opening he needed CS1, meaning Sharingan and his own better speed wasn't sufficient, despite the gap.
On the roof of the hospital the situation was the same
If so, it wouldn't explain how Kabuto could counter the visual genjutsu just by covering his eyes with his hood, or using that... Snake thingy on them in Sage Mode.Quote:
The Deidara one is easily answerable, genjutsu can be activated after the looking in the eye ( if you notice, Deidara uses his eye afterwards as well ), this famous panel is nothing more than this, activating the eye to see what the hell that invisible jutsu was
That's my point, Uchihas aren't like Sasuke, so they ain't gonna whip out A rank jutsus like nothingQuote:
Also we saw with both Itachi and Sasuke in part 2 the biggest the Gokyakuu can get, and the bros are easily leagues ahead of noobs like Fugaku.
Of course if hit point blank they'll get burned, but I'm not arguing to say Hyuuga > Uchihas, but to say that they have a fair chance
Yet we know ninjas use chakra constantly to move and to boost their own abilities, the only two that doesn't do it ( theorically ) are Lee and Gai.Quote:
Point is, the Uchiha can't block nor parry, because Juuken does great internal damage the moment it hits.
You are probably confusing Neji's tenketsu closing as to what Juuken does, normal Juuken for noobs basically deals internal damage by immitting chakra in the system, creating devastating damages.
They are incredibly dangerous because, as Kakashi said, you can't train your organs, so, unless you are a freak like Oro you will get damaged. If an Uchiha blocks two or three times he'll probably lose the use of his arms
Most Uchiha are unable to tap into the sharingan fully. Sasuke and Itachi are rare examples -- most of the clan members were not anywhere near as powerful. Most of the clan members were killed by a teenage Itachi.
The Hyuga Clan hasn't been highlighted very much in the series, but they are very strict and rigid. All of the Hyuga we've seen are pretty powerful. They all train to master their Byakugan. The Byakugan is useful not just for taijutsu but for strategy and sensory ninjutsu. They're also the only remaining clan in Konohagakure with kekkei genkai. Their fighting style can be used to completely interrupt and prevent their opponents from using their chakra by shutting down their chakra pathway system.
Compare them to the other clans we've seen in Konohagakure, like the Inuzuka or Nara clans, which are small and offer more utility than anything else. Even among the Akimichi, Choji is the only really impressive member.
There is nothing in the manga that suggest all Hyuuga clan members can unlock the byuakugan, just like the Ichiha clan and Sharingan.
Also, nothing suggest that Hyuuga clan train harder then Uchiha or any other clan.
It really Dosen't matter what the Hyuuga clan Byukagan offer, fact is the Sharingan is more versitle.
See, you just proved my point. You fastforwarded past events that took place already inorder to ignore the blows Naruto was hit with beforehand. Even with your second scan you further prove my point that he only went up to CS inorder to give him an opening for Chidori. It's not because his blows didn't hurt. It's not because Naruto was keeping up with him (because he wasn't, proven by him being knocked to the ground every time he tried to make an exchange with him). It was because Chidori can't beat Rasengan. That's the only reason.Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood
As for on top of the rooftop, Sasuke kicked the everloving hell out of an army of clones without the aid of the Curse Seal. The only way Naruto could manage to keep from getting clobbered was thanks to throwing an army at him. You're probably relying on this as proof:
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v20/c175/10.html And if so... take note of what happened. They rushed at eachother and Sasuke caught Naruto's fist while he caught his own. Sasuke kicked and Naruto blocked... then one of them fled, immediately realizing the futility of going hand to hand. Who did that? http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v20/c175/11.html Naruto.
The Hyuuga actually sees what's going on around them. Kabuto wasn't seeing through his hood, he was sensing through it. That means that the visual cue to cast the Genjutsu never passed into his vision. The Genjutsu couldn't be cast. If Kabuto could see through his hood then he would've seen the visual cue that casts the Genjutsu and would've been caught.Quote:
We're using average Uchiha as an example. If that's the case then Genin Sasuke's damage capacity would be comperable to your average Chuunin atleast since even though he was a prodigy, he wasn't jounin level just yet.Quote:
Based on? Because we have to accept that "noobs" like the police force or any other average Uchiha would be inferior to Sasuke and Itachi, we also have to accept that the average Hyuuga are inferior to Hiashi and even Neji. And Neji is so inferior to Sasuke and Itachi it's not even funny.Quote:
Thus, realistically, the ball falls alot farther from Neji to noob than it does from Sasuke to noob.
No, I'm fully aware that internal damage can be done with the chakra scalpels on the end of their fingers regardless of whether tenketsu are punctured. What I'm saying is, because the Sharingan gives color to chakra it will be like watching a man swing a knife at you. You can block without touching the blade. There is no devistating internal damage unless the blade actually touches you.Quote:
Like said: you don't touch the outsides, you can't harm the insides.Quote:
All the Uchiha are gone and only Yamato can use the Wood element now, so that's why. Their fighting style has always been deadly though. Kishi just stopped caring about them once part 2 started sadly, with the exception of opportunities for Hinata x Naruto moments.
Both occasions Sasuke didn't evade Naruto, he blocked him, and against a Hyuuga blocking is suicide.
As for him spamming KB, he spammed KB back in part 1 against anyone, and always KB was nerfed as hell ( the only time it showed its worth was against Gaara, when he beaten him to the ground ), so its not really a point imo
For what you say to work, the Sharingan's genjutsu should have a field of chakra expanding from the user to work, while we know Sharingan genjutsus works only when the opponent looks at the Uchiha in the eye.Quote:
Say the Hyuuga shuts his eyes while using the Byakugan, how could he be caught in a genjutsu? We know they can see past things, so that would enable them to fight while being completely immune to the genjutsus
Chunins don't know A rank jutsus, hell even jounins such as Kurenai and Asuma never displayed such feats ( and Yamato as well, if I remember right ).Quote:
And even then, Chidori would work only because of its cutting power, an A rank katon, for example, wouldn't pass through it imo
Based on the fact that we saw what Fugaku, the best the Uchihas had to offer at that time ( without counting Itachi ) could do with a Katon.Quote:
Something way less impressive than using, for example, a Kaiten so massive as to knock out 20 or so ninjas in one move without breaking a sweat.
Admit it, the Itachi/Sasuke generation of Uchiha was pretty much crap, nothing compared to the generation of Madara
You would need to block the arm, and even then, if the Hyuuga knows Kaiten, he could project the chakra from every part of his body, harming the Uchiha.Quote:
You don't grab a Hyuuga, you dodge him completely
As the Hinata vs Neji fight showed, even grazing someone creates damage to the area.Quote:
The Uchiha would need to completely dodge every strike, and you'll agree with me that that isn't easy by any means
Same with taijutsu. Sasuke had to train hard to get to Lee's speed, and even then he couldn't keep it up for long. And as shown, faster speed can either render Sharingan useless for hte most part or give trouble. Just look at Raikage vs. Sasuke.
Oh wait, you mean giving power like Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu? Well, as we saw, it's not necessarily a game ender. Kakashi was the only one who fell to an MS jutsu, if I recall. Raikage dodged Amaterasu, Bee got out of Tsukuyomi and pretended to get hit with Amaterasu, and Susano'o didn't end fights.
That's nitpicking. Because Sasuke chose to block Naruto effectively doesn't mean that he would've chosen to if Naruto had blades of chakra errupting from his pores. It means he had the forsight to see where he was going to attempt an attack and could defend as needed. If he had deemed dodging as more effective he would have.Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood
As for him spamming KB, it's a massive point. You claim that the Sharingan didn't give Sasuke any kind of distinct advantage against Naruto when in actuality the only times Naruto could match Sasuke's hand-to-hand expertise is when he was outnumbering him 20 to 1. It takes Naruto a gallon of chakra to do what a Sasuke can do with only a droplet of chakra. It's outrageous evidence as to who the superior fighter is.
It has nothing to do with Hyuuga vs. Uchiha, but you know me: anytime someone mistakenly claims Sasuke or Naruto are equal in terms of skill I'm going to stamp that indiscretion out.
The Sharingan can see chakra, but not through the user's eyelids. I've no reason to believe the Byakugan can do the same by way of it never being shown. Yes the Byakugan sees more than the Sharingan can, but it still has limitations, and even with it's greatest abilites of sight the Sharingan is better at predicting attacks, so there's no reason to assume that the Byakugan always has the Sharingan beat when it comes to seeing things.Quote:
With all that said; I don't believe the Byakugan can be used through closed eyes.
A rank? No. B rank? Sure. When I said damage potential I meant the strength of attacks that the average Chuunin would have access to would be equal to Sasuke's version of it. Genin Sasuke I mean. And once again, we can't assume that the average Hyuuga Kaiten is as powerful as Neji or Hiashi's.Quote:
Once again, you won't give the average Uchiha Sasuke or Itachi level feats, but you're assuming standard nobody Hyuuga are gonna reproduce feats from the strongest Hyuugas in the manga.Quote:
Why the double standard? Secondly, you're using Fugaku's usage of a C-rank jutsu as evidence of his lack of power? You don't see a problem with that? That's the technique that child Uchiha master to become honest clan members.
Same could be said about the Hyuuga. Though admittedly, the Uchiha would have stopped being revered as genuine threats to the village if their power was as lacking as you seem to be implying. Once again: based on nothing.Quote:
You don't say? http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Eight_T...volving_HeavenQuote:
A secret taijutsu that is orally handed down only within the main house of the Hyūga, this technique utilises the chakra control gained through Gentle Fist training to release a huge amount of chakra from all the chakra points on the user's body. It is also a defensive manoeuvre to compensate for the Byakugan's blind spot as the released chakra blocks any possible attack on the user. After releasing chakra from every tenketsu in their body, the user then spins rapidly to parry the attack, both creating a rotating shield of chakra around themselves and tossing away any nearby attackers. The user can also actively control the size and power of the sphere to suit the situation. This technique is only effective when rotating, since the chakra itself is not enough to stop a physical attack thus if they cannot spin, the user becomes vulnerable.
Not only will the average Uchiha not even know Kaiten, but it's only effective while spinning, as the amount of chakra sent out is not enough to stop a physical attack. You grab them and prevent them from spinning, then they're done.
As the Hinata vs Neji fight showed, even grazing someone creates damage to the area.
The Uchiha would need to completely dodge every strike, and you'll agree with me that that isn't easy by any means
Actually I don't, since that was my original claim: having a Sharingan gives predictive powers that diminish the difficulty of dodging attacks outrageously. Obito was never a prodigy, and look what gaining a Sharingan did for him during the war when he first achieved it.
we will see what the hyuugas can do now that hinata might get chakra from kurama pr whatever naruto is planning to do but still kishi negligent byakugan for a long time and showed not love so i don't see kishi making the hyuugas into a better fighter as evolving..