The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

[King of Anime]

Why is the 3rd Hokage is POSSIBLY Stronger than Madara?
Simply because he surpassed the 1st and 2nd Hokage he was also called the God of Shinobi
during his Era he was the strongest of all Kage,PROBABLY surpassing Onoki,3rd Raikage and the others who knows.Even in his Old Age he didn't lose composure fighting with Orochimaru with 1st and 2nd Hokage,and it was stated in his battle with orochimaru that it was different compared to his prime probably cuz of age gap yes.But since Madara got a hold of EMS and Rinnegan + Jubi +Reversed Edo Tensei it would probably be a different story now and I dont even fukin know why he surpassed the 1st if he Madara said the 1st doesn't need hand signs to heal himself. I was like wtf and yeh if Madara said only Hashirama can beat him then wtf the 3rd hokage hasn't done much shit yet then why is he called God of Shinobi (Btw the guy who called him that dude Iruka)


I got the idea here:http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Hiruzen_Sarutobi

[xXan]

Madara would 1 shoot him... That is after he would stop laughting.

[Hakuteiken]

He only fought an incomplete binding of Edo Tensei and won the battle for his village with a sacrificial sealing jutsu against senseless puppets.
When was it stated that Hiruzen did ever surpass his Sensei?

[3c]

Oh god, this again.

Kishi's old word that no longer holds any significance in terms of what we've seen on screen. The Third's fight with Orochimaru is in retrospect a chuunin fight now, a fight previously described as "Kage level" by an ANBU captain, that includes Hashirama who also acted like a chuunin compared to what he should be able to do.

Age is no excuse. Danzou fought well and was older than Sarutobi. Oonoki whom is far older than Sarutobi ever was, is kicking ass. And I deem it an impossibility for Sarutobi to counter Oonoki's Dust Release, and Sandaime Raikage's speed combined with defense + attack power. GG Kishi.

Heck, even Dan said "the only one who can stop Madara is the First Hokage". It's not rocket science that Kishi has decided that The First > The Third ever since the Senju-Uchiha plot increased its importance.

[KingOfNight]

When was it stated that Hiruzen did ever surpass his Sensei?

Only like every where :

First Databook, pages 117-119

Here.

And here it's stated he is the strongest of all 5 Kages.
.........................................................................................
3c

What you're saying makes little to no sense, Enma stated that Hiruzens ability is pathetic compared to his prime. And Orochimaru said "Even you who is know as God of the Shinobi can't overcome old age". How can you say age is not an excuse ?

Kishimoto is clearly not willing to take back his statement as he said in the 2nd Fanbook " Rikudo sennin is known as the Shinobi God...Sarutobi must have been godly !", further showing he was not joking when he said he is the strongest among all Kages (BTW this was stated after all five kages appeared so they are no old words). Why should we think Kishimoto is trolling and not saying the truth ?

[Uchiha_Blood]

Kishi retconned Hashirama, putting him just below Rikudou Sennin.
Even by hype, Hiruzen's worth is now useless

[Nic]

Oh god, this again.

Kishi's old word that no longer holds any significance in terms of what we've seen on screen. The Third's fight with Orochimaru is in retrospect a chuunin fight now, a fight previously described as "Kage level" by an ANBU captain, that includes Hashirama who also acted like a chuunin compared to what he should be able to do.

I don't think he was stronger than the 1st, however it's important to note that it was a different time in the manga though, early in the beginning when characters where nog yet dropping atom bombs on eachother. It's also known that he only used a fraction of his techniques, as he was forced to use a sealing jutsu.

[3c]

What you're saying makes little to no sense, Enma stated that Hiruzens ability is pathetic compared to his prime. And Orochimaru said "Even you who is know as God of the Shinobi can't overcome old age". How can you say age is not an excuse ?

Kishimoto is clearly not willing to take back his statement as he said in the 2nd Fanbook " Rikudo sennin is known as the Shinobi God...Sarutobi must have been godly !", further showing he was not joking when he said he is the strongest among all Kages (BTW this was stated after all five kages appeared so they are no old words). Why should we think Kishimoto is trolling and not saying the truth ?

Like Uchiha_Blood said, the power levels have clearly been retconned (more like evolved as Hiruzen's role ended EARLY in the manga). What characters like Orochimaru said back then is now irrelevant as the manga has essentially gone through what is often called "the DBZ evolution". Kishi's statement in the latest databook is worthless. He's pretty much rowing around the questions by saying that he was the strongest, when absolutely nothing indicates it. He doesn't want to admit what he said previously is now wrong, and just says "hahaha, yeah he sure must have been godly!".

Think about it. When characters want to mention previous beasts, do they EVER mention the THIRD Hokage? No. They mention 1) Hashirama, 2) Minato, 3) Madara. No one ever mentions Hiruzen. Why is that? It's because in the current story which is 500 chapters later than when Hiruzen's so called Kage level was displayed, his Kage level is in fact chuunin level. Surely he was stronger in his prime. That means more chakra, more stamina, more speed. However the fact is he's still limited to regular element techniques.

Just ask yourself, how would Hiruzen with no bloodline limit or special powers, who btw could have in no possible way known (used) all of Konoha's techniques due to later story restrictions (clan techniques (bloodline limits) and element restrictions), deal with people like Muu or Oonoki? Any defense he would put up, e.g. an Earth Wall, would be obliterated like nothing. Muu and Oonoki could have flown out of his reach and nuked him to the afterlife. How would he deal with A's father's speed combined with his durable body and defense? He surely was not faster, and A's father pretty much couldn't be harmed by normal techniques, which include FRS(!!).

As for the thread's question: http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/577/13

[Hakuteiken]

Only like every where :

First Databook, pages 117-119

Here.

And here it's stated he is the strongest of all 5 Kages.
.........................................................................................
3c

What you're saying makes little to no sense, Enma stated that Hiruzens ability is pathetic compared to his prime. And Orochimaru said "Even you who is know as God of the Shinobi can't overcome old age". How can you say age is not an excuse ?

Kishimoto is clearly not willing to take back his statement as he said in the 2nd Fanbook " Rikudo sennin is known as the Shinobi God...Sarutobi must have been godly !", further showing he was not joking when he said he is the strongest among all Kages (BTW this was stated after all five kages appeared so they are no old words). Why should we think Kishimoto is trolling and not saying the truth ?

That's what Iruka says and Iruka hasn't ever seen Shodaime or Nidaime. He just speculates. It must be because he must have heard about that from someone else, but apart from the elders, Danzou and Sandaime himself, no other elite Shinobi in the village could have possibly recognized Shodaime or Nidaime. So, his statement isn't that valuable.

In the second link, Kabuto refers to Sandaime as the strongest because he was the Hokage. Apparently, it was an appraisal to the title of Hokage and Konoha's strength and nothing else.

[xXan]

As i said before. When Madara decides to stop laughing he 1 shoots Sarutobi. What we had back then its no longer relevant. Now its just hype at best. The manga evolves over time and there is NO way one can expect Kishi to know what he will end up doing 10 years later... Retcons happen...

It was made damn clear that only Hashirama could stop Madara even the EMS version. The curent one... Would have for brakefast Hashirama, Tobirama, Sarutobi and Minato at the same time... He would just take a big dump on all of them. He is COMPLETLY and i mean COMPLETLY broken. He was playing with the 5 kages like they where KIDS. The 5 kages could not do SHIT to his ultimate Susano....

Thing is i just said the Madara thing as i get bored of this arguments. Its no diferent then that 1 page showing how Jman can take Kisame and Itachi and even if they bring help it would not make any diference LOL! When Pein ALONE owned JMan.

[Uchiha_Blood]

Just ask yourself, how would Hiruzen with no bloodline limit or special powers, who btw could have in no possible way known (used) all of Konoha's techniques due to later story restrictions (clan techniques (bloodline limits) and element restrictions), deal with people like Muu or Oonoki? Any defense he would put up, e.g. an Earth Wall, would be obliterated like nothing. Muu and Oonoki could have flown out of his reach and nuked him to the afterlife. How would he deal with A's father's speed combined with his durable body and defense? He surely was not faster, and A's father pretty much couldn't be harmed by normal techniques, which include FRS(!!).

One of the strongest Shinobi of all time doesn't have neither a bloodline ability nor special talents
Point being, if Kishi needed to Hiruzen could easily be a beast even with "normal" abilities, unfortunately as you said what Hiruzen showed is now worthless:
handsigns are worthless, superior awareness is worthless ( really, having all 5 senses amplified isn't worth shit anymore ), B-A Rank jutsus are ( relatively ) worthless.

Hiruzen's strenght was that he was proficent in everything:
you name it, he was able to do it.
Shamefully he's now useless, so Kishi's not gonna bother anymore

[Hakuteiken]

It's not a real evolution. It's rather an inconsistent story development. Now, Kishimoto made an honorable mention of Hiruzen's name in our minds through his clan by pushing them forward with a fire jutsu against Juubi, and that's about it.
He might consider himself lucky if he is placed above his pupils.

Regarding the bloodline;
Well, bloodline wasn't introduced to be the real deal initially, but as time passed, Mokuton and Rinnegan were revealed to be so hax that one cannot possibly hope to defeat an opponent with bloodline without any. It's not really something you can look over, but to state it once again, the entire Shinobi world is fighting two guys with Rinnegan at the moment and the five Kage were embarrassed by only one (though it may have been just due to EMS, not Rinnegan).
It's not really something new that the power levels are screwed up, though.

[marshall313]

As i said before. When Madara decides to stop laughing he 1 shoots Sarutobi. What we had back then its no longer relevant. Now its just hype at best. The manga evolves over time and there is NO way one can expect Kishi to know what he will end up doing 10 years later... Retcons happen...

It was made damn clear that only Hashirama could stop Madara even the EMS version. The curent one... Would have for brakefast Hashirama, Tobirama, Sarutobi and Minato at the same time... He would just take a big dump on all of them. He is COMPLETLY and i mean COMPLETLY broken. He was playing with the 5 kages like they where KIDS. The 5 kages could not do SHIT to his ultimate Susano....

Thing is i just said the Madara thing as i get bored of this arguments. Its no diferent then that 1 page showing how Jman can take Kisame and Itachi and even if they bring help it would not make any diference LOL! When Pein ALONE owned JMan.

You're exagerating far too much.

If the current madara, with ems,rinnegan and mokuton even admitted that only hashirama can stop him now, so it's freaking obvious that hashirama can still stop him. And if you add minato, do you think madara can win? Hashirama + minato = dead madara.

In fact, even now madara feels inferior to hashirama. As if his current power isn't enough to defeat the man who trashed him like a fodder. That's being said, madara with riinegan can't do shit to hashirama. Madara admitted that while kabuto even agreed.

[xXan]

@marshall313

No, Hashirama has 0 chanses vs curent Madara. The only one who could stomp EMS Madara and in result his ultimate Susano back in the time it was Hashirama. Curently Hashirama can't do shit considering Madara has infinite chakra. He can just chill in his Susano and repair any damage done to it constantly and stomp on anybody.

There is no way in hell Hashriama won vs normal EMS Madara by a hair but would not get stomped by curent immortal, unlimited chakra, WOOD ELEMENT (so Hashirama's main weapon is goine) and rinnegan enchanced Madara.

The man who trashed him like a fodder... Sometimes i even wonder why i even reply to you. Madara and Hashirama where showed as just about EQUALS back then. They had MANNY fights ending in draws... Then after a close long battle Hashirama won it....

Madara only said the only one who could stop him was Hashirama.He was most defenetly refering to his old self. Curent version there is no way for Hashirama to chalange it. Madara has ALL of Hashirama's tools and he is immortal and does not run out of chakra. Then he has the bloody RINNEGAN ffs... Then he has the bloody Mazo...

Minato is useless as he has nothing to get trough perfect Susano. Minato is a BUG.

Tobirama we don't know what exacly he could do but i am sure there is nothing that would chalange curent Madara.

Sarutobi? Buahahaha.

Put them all togeder and the only one fighting is Hashirama and Madara is chilling in his Susano blasting them to bits with Susano clones, meteors and his own Susano... Minato is going to do what? RASENGAN that big Susano? Or perhaps he is going to kunai it? Minato is completly out of his league here.

All the old Kages are not going to fair any better then the curent ones... 5 Hashirama's would do better vs curent Madara but thing is Sarutobi, Minato are not as good as some of the curent Kages when dealing with Madara... Minato is good vs someone like Obito to counter the ST but vs Madara... He has nothing to do anything.

[Roman]

Ridiculous thread. I don't understand how can someone get to such a conclusion. It's beyond me.