The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

[xXan]

Well, Madara has already known that the five Kage is nothing to compare to his power.

When he fought against Hashirama, that was when he was still alive. Meaning that everything he does has limit, he has chakra limit, strength limit. That's the time when he has to work and try to get things, not be blessed with infinite chakra like now, he admited that himself. He is a prideful shinobi, so when he fought Hashirama, he had to bet everything, even summoned Kurama to fight even having known the the Mokuton would be able to restrain the beast (this i'm not sure).
Since that he had bet on everything, even his life, the fact that Hashirama did defeat him makes him appericiate and look up to Hashirama power.

and now, the five Kage is fighting against someone who has already possessed Rinengan, and has infinite chakra. So it's like he was testing them, not fighting them. and by the time they passed the test, they are already drown out, have no further chakra to fight.. If use the same method to fight Hashirama, i don't think Hashirama would stay alive.

I already addresed this before Madara's Susano is something he could use if he was a normal guy before Rinnegan. His Ultimate Susano was something that Hashirama had to fight and win over it. Tsunade stated that Madara's power (EMS ONLY SUSANO) is leagues about all there power combined. The fact that he is a EDO with all those extra abilities is not really relevant when Madara is showed taking a dump on them with his EMS power alone.

Heh Tsukisage alone stated (before even knowing about Ultimate Susano) that Madara (living EMS one from his fight with Hashirama) can take care of them alone.

[Rikudou King]

That's not exactly how it is, he said "those who heard of his power considered him a fairy tale". Am I to ask how is that a proof for the original argument ? That Hiruzen is the strongest Hokage ? He was straight up stated to be the strongest, what you're saying here is assumptions on why he was stated as such and why was Hashirama not mentioned. That's you assuming the reason behind Kishimoto's statement. That is in no way a fact. Unless you can bring me something like :

A direct statement of him being the strongest Hokage in either Manga or databook. (Like the one I gave three hundred time)

A statement of him being stronger than Hiruzen.

Or Kishimoto asking us not to take what he said in part 1 seriously.

Or him saying he didn't know things will turn out like this.

Unless it's something like that, it's just an assumption. People can say I'm trolling all they want, but unless a proof is presented I'm not obliged to listen to your opinions.

How is it an assumption when we're outright told that no one actually believed Hashirama was as powerful as he was said to be? We're basically told twice that his true strength was unknown. That would automatically make any measurement in strength screwed. Kishi wouldn't/didn't have to write it like that unless that was the conclusion he was going for.

Databook wise, Hashirama was called "unparalleled in the shinobi world" and Hanzou was called "unrivalled among shinobi" in the third. Both of those pretty much counter any claim on Sarutobi, so not sure why the databooks would apply at all here.

As for examples within the series, how about the Uchiha Rebellion? To eliminate the entire clan, it was stated it would take Sarutobi along with Danzo and their Anbu force ambushing the clan to do so. How exactly is he the strongest if he can't even directly confront a bunch of ninjas (much) weaker then Madara alone? The majority of the clan didn't even possess the Sharingan, and even the best in the clan was shown below the likes of Itachi, who still would have been weaker then Madara at that time. I would also bring up the Kyuubi Incident. When Minato assumed the masked man was possibly Madara, he didn't think at all of asking for Sarutobi's help nor did he even bother informing Sarutobi that such a powerful man was around, instead he gave Naruto the Kyuubi in order to eventually fight him. So we were given that while Hashirama regularly solo the best and most feared Uchiha, one capable of solo'ing both Tsuchikages at once without going all out, Sarutobi wasn't believed by his teammate or fellow Hokage capable of dealing with the weaker likes.

Also, I'm pretty sure all one has to do is look at the numerous recons to see Kishi has been making things up as he went along and that we can't rely on what was said during Part One. All I have to do is point to how Kakashi was originally said to graduate at the age of six, and now he was recon to have graduated at 12. Or the changing of Chidori into lightning when it was outright stated to be just chakra previously. Or changing the Bijuus from embodiments of actual hatred to misunderstood beast in the same story arc.

[xXan]

We're not ready yet for fair comparisons



If anime was canon, Deva would probably beat Madara hands down

Haha i know right. Deva got hit in the head by Kurama with a HUGE bolder over and over and was just fine, punched in the face by 6 tails when 3 tails ripped 1 of Oro's arms off and did some other superficial damage, then Deva punching the ground and a lake apears out of nowhere...Then deva making direct contact with his chakra and not burning up (like Orochimaru did), bloking Kurama chakra hands attack from a distance with his bare arms, STOPING A BJU BEAM WITH HIS BARE HANDS:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-CPOFDWk5E

In the end the best part is that after showing all the above feats of durability he goes down to a bloody Rasengan LIKE LOL... The animation itself was not that bad but what it actualy showed was mind boggling... Well no diferent then Sarutobi using his magic stick to push Kurama out of Konoha.... Considering the diference in mass Sarutobi would be trown the other way before Kurama would be moved 1m even if you go with some small physics.

[shafagh]

Heh Tsukisage alone stated (before even knowing about Ultimate Susano) that Madara (living EMS one from his fight with Hashirama) can take care of them alone

and even he didn't see true power of Madara ......

[M3J]

Yes he was said to be the strongest Hokage. So he is the strongest Hokage. Until you can prove this "he was said" is a lie.



Did he say he's the strongest Hokage ? No. Ignored.



When you stop spouting nonsense and bring me an actual statement from the author. That's when.

Once again though, what the characters say aren't necessarily facts or what the author confirms, as he himself can change it. It's what he wants us to know, which may not be necessarily true. Kishi can establish the fact that Hashirama is stronger but still have a character say that Hiruzen is the strongest, especially if they're too young to know about Hashirama. You shouldn't just stick to what's said in the manga, as they can say one thing and do another. Even what Kishi says shouldn't be held true as he tends to lie.

And databooks aren't necessarily the best thing either. They don't really state hundred percent facts, but what is said in the manga.

And nothing should be taken as 100% fact until the manga is done since as seen, anything can change. Hiruzen can be said by countless of characters to be the most powerful, but that means nothing if we see Hashirama, going easy, perform much better than Hiruzen at his best.

Maybe you should stop wasting my time.

For the last time, Iruka didn't say everything. Kishimoto said this as well in the databook, so who rumored this ? His assistant ?. Not to mention than fanbook statement, as well as Orochimaru's.

Has Orochimaru seen Hashirama's power in action? DId Kishi establish the power level and didn't plan on changing it? You have to figure a lot of elements here, not just what Kishi had the characters say or wanted us to know.

Is there a power level thread in the section? Apparently, even if there is one, it's not that popular.
We have a 68-page and counting on power level discussion for Bleach, so, 10 pages is like nothing

Power level used to not be important here, it was about being clever or smart, setting up traps, and etc. In Part I, Naruto had a decent chance of beating Orochimaru just because he fought differently and was clever as hell. In Part II, Kakashi would lose to Tobi just because he lacks the necessary fire power and chakra. Back then, Hiruzen could have won because he was the better ninja. Now, he'd lose a lot of fights because he lacks the power.

So in some people's minds hiruzen could supposedly beat the 5 kages since hiruzen is stronger than madara. No wait its prime hiruzen forgive me : p. lets put oonoki in his prime too since you want them in the prime condition, do you honestly believe hiruzen can beat them ?? What has he shown that can allow him to handle these guys? Heck the 5 kage don't even mention the old man when fighting madara, but hashiramas name pops up whenever they wonder how they could beat him

Hiruzen can be stronger than Madara, beat him, and still lose to the five kage. It is, or was, about having the right tools. Madara could take on the five kage simply because of his Mokuton and Rinnegan, but still lose to Hiruzen because Hiruzen could counter Mokuton, who himself could lose to five kage because he can't regenerate, heal, or absorb chakra.

Just because A > B, B > C, doesn't mean A > C in Naruto, not always anyway.

Now imagine if Minato had a sharingan.

Genjutsu skills and ability to copy moves are the only things he'd gain from Sharingan. Dude doesn't need to predict because he's fast as hell as it is. But, he'd lose a lot of fans, even in jdw.

But, we should first establish more of Minato's skills, like his elemental nature and ability with genjutsu, as well as jutsu he can use.

[shahdan]

[B]
@shahdan


Neah. That happened after the fight. Madara stated Kurama was taken down with that dragon thing.

The scan implies 'during the battle'. It is a high probability that she aided him in sealing Kurama. That's all. Albeit it may seem like a small feat, it may have been the only factor that turned the tables.

---------- Post added at 01:27 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:17 AM ----------

I think Mito could have possibly only aided him when it came to sealing the Kyuubi. I don't think she could do anything against the Perfect Susano'o on her own.
The most likely scenario is Hashirama taking control of the Kyuubi, and Mito performing the fuuinjutsu.
Madara probably got exhausted overexerting his doujutsu while trying to counter Hashirama's attacks and lost. That's how it seems to me, at least.

I believe it goes without saying that if she did aid him, that help would be limited to sealing only. However, as I said, that limited help became more than a harbinger of victory; it may have been the deciding factor.

[xXan]

@M3J


If he had Sharingan he most defenetly get a reaction times boos and a very good one. Sasuke was able to react to Raikage. Genjutsu skilsl with his intelect would also be a HUGE deal. The ability to see trough genjusu and counter them, again big deal. See chakra inside stuff again big deal.

Of course he would also gain MS considering his skill and the people that died in the war (i am sure some BFF died or something).

Minato with a sharingan would be a scary though :P

@shahdan

No. The action that happened during the battle was for Hashirama to gain control of the Kyuubi. At what point Kurama was sealed inside Mito was not stated.
http://178.21.19.200/manga/mangas/Na...0Naruto/05.png
Read again.

[Beelzeboss]

People, just watch the Naruto vs Gaara fight again and LAUGH at anything part1 has to say.
Remember what Gamabunta said about Gaara and the Shuukaku? how he was the "Medium" of this "Mythical Beast, the Shuukaku", that Gaara had mapache-like eyes because he couldn't sleep or the Shuukaku would take over and all that crap? and Gamabunta said all that like he was truly knowledgeable about the matter, not like "I heeeaaard that...".

Kishi OBVIOUSLY had no idea of what the Naruto series would become, so part1 is a cute background and a big /ignore for the most part for me.

Edit:

Let's LOL

[shahdan]

"During their fight, Hashirama gained control of nine tails. And - the sentence is linked here with a conjunction - in order to better aid him..." Now this could be the factor that resulted in a victory. I believe we are all aware that all their previous clashes didn't end in victory for both of them. It couldn't have gone this way, or this must have been some sort of table-turner. Until we don't see the actual fight, this scan is not worth dismissing.

[marshall313]

The scan implies 'during the battle'. It is a high probability that she aided him in sealing Kurama. That's all. Albeit it may seem like a small feat, it may have been the only factor that turned the tables.

---------- Post added at 01:27 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:17 AM ----------



I believe it goes without saying that if she did aid him, that help would be limited to sealing only. However, as I said, that limited help became more than a harbinger of victory; it may have been the deciding factor.

And your point?

The legendary hashirama defeated madara because his wife help him?

Honestly, you're just trying too hard to downplay hashirama's overwhelming victory against madara.

There are at least 2/3 scenarios that indicates hashirama defeated both madara and the kyubi alone.

1. Kyubi's flashback. We seen hashirama in a bloody face while telling the kyubi that he's dangerous so he can't let him roam free.

2. Madara himself. He stated t'was hashirama's dragon who defeated his kyubi.

3. Kushina. She said hashirama gained control of kurama during his fight against madara.

So, I think you should rest this case, because from what the manga has shown, hashirama doesn't need his wife to defeat madara, why? Because he's more stronger than him.

[Hakuteiken]

"During their fight, Hashirama gained control of nine tails. And - the sentence is linked here with a conjunction - in order to better aid him..." Now this could be the factor that resulted in a victory. I believe we are all aware that all their previous clashes didn't end in victory for both of them. It couldn't have gone this way, or this must have been some sort of table-turner. Until we don't see the actual fight, this scan is not worth dismissing.

It could be. But I doubt Mito could immediately use Nine-Tails power in the fight.
Probably, Hashirama binded the Nine-Tails after he wrestled away it from Madara's control. Hashirama couldn't possibly concentrate on his opponent and a Bijuu at the same time, so, Mito sealed the Nine-Tails inside her, and Hashirama returned his focus back to Madara. So, even if it was a decisive factor, it changes the end result little.
It goes from Hashirama defeated Madara + Kyuubi to Hashirama defeated Madara. Still quite a feat by any means.

[syx]

"During their fight, Hashirama gained control of nine tails. And - the sentence is linked here with a conjunction - in order to better aid him..." Now this could be the factor that resulted in a victory. I believe we are all aware that all their previous clashes didn't end in victory for both of them. It couldn't have gone this way, or this must have been some sort of table-turner. Until we don't see the actual fight, this scan is not worth dismissing.

Even if we go with "Mito sealed Kyuubi during the fight", it still doesn't definitely mean that it was the table-turner or the deciding factor for Hashirama's win.

What would be the point for Mito to seal Kyuubi during the fight? It seems that Hashirama, just like Madara, can't control Kyuubi for a longer period. This means that Kyuubi would end up as a third party in that fight, attacking both Madara and Hashirama as he pleases.

That throws "to better aid him (Hashirama)" into a new context. She helped her husband to focus on one godlike opponent, instead of two. But that also goes for Madara, which makes the whole sealing-issue not a table-turner.

[ninjabot]

Even if we go with "Mito sealed Kyuubi during the fight", it still doesn't definitely mean that it was the table-turner or the deciding factor for Hashirama's win.

He said it could be. Are you denying that it's a very realistic possibility?

There's a double edged sword to people claiming that "Hashirama and Madara only had one fight to the death, and that's the only one that matters". Inorder for anyone to follow that train of thought they must also be willing to admit that it's possible that not all of their fights (maybe not even the last) was one-on-one. Each time they fought they were hired as mercenaries by other countries, so it always consisted of multiple Senju and multiple Uchiha.

[syx]

He said it could be. Are you denying that it's a very realistic possibility?

Of course not. I thought it was clear that I also made just a scenario, where the sealing-issue is not a table-turner. What's wrong with my post? :/

Also, in one of my previous posts I said this:

Whatever it was, nothing indicates Hashirama being the loser of this battle, while it's a gray area regarding Madara. However, I should also add that I didn't forget about Mitos involvement in their fight. It's probably too early to declare the winner/loser of this battle without seeing the full fight. Right know, the manga leaves me the impression that Madara lost.

I'm well aware that Mito's involvement could have been a deciding factor.

[Rikudou King]

While I'm one of the people who support the idea that Mito sealed the Kyuubi during the fight, given what we have been told, I doubt it was any sort of table turning event. Minato suggest that controlling the Kyuubi is a costly trick, so Madara losing the Kyuubi should have presumably allowed him to fight better.