The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

[KingOfNight]

Databook wise, Hashirama was called "unparalleled in the shinobi world" and Hanzou was called "unrivalled among shinobi" in the third. Both of those pretty much counter any claim on Sarutobi, so not sure why the databooks would apply at all here.

Respect !

Finally someone with actual proofs. I did some research about that statement. Hashirama was indeed said to have no peer in the Shinobi world. Nothing about Hanzo though. Not to matter anyway, you have a proof to support your point and that's that. At least you didn't try stupid arguments to negate my proofs. I asked for an actual proof and you brought me one, that's enough to win you the argument.

P.S I'm not saying anything but where was it said that that Hiruzen and The Anbu were needed to kill the Uchihas ?

[ninjabot]

Genjutsu skills and ability to copy moves are the only things he'd gain from Sharingan. Dude doesn't need to predict because he's fast as hell as it is. But, he'd lose a lot of fans, even in jdw.

Hah! No.

@syx: You made it sound like it was the least likely of scenarios, which made it seem like you were saying to him "You're wrong because this is the least likely scenario." When in actuality it's one of the more likely scenarios. That's all I was getting at: that he wasn't claiming it as fact.

---------- Post added at 04:51 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:48 AM ----------

Oh yeah: does the databook state when Hashirama divided the bijuu amongst villages? It's never been stated but at one point he had to have had all bijuu in his posession (likely while he and Madara were allied). It's completely possible he used them against Madara in some capacity.

[Hakuteiken]

Respect !

Finally someone with actual proofs. I did some research about that statement. Hashirama was indeed said to have no peer in the Shinobi world. Nothing about Hanzo though. Not to matter anyway, you have a proof to support your point and that's that. At least you didn't try stupid arguments to negate my proofs. I asked for an actual proof and you brought me one, that's enough to win you the argument.

P.S I'm not saying anything but where was it said that that Hiruzen and The Anbu were needed to kill the Uchihas ?

Actually he did show you a proof of why we cannot use databooks as legitimate sources of information.

---------- Post added at 11:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:07 PM ----------

Oh yeah: does the databook state when Hashirama divided the bijuu amongst villages? It's never been stated but at one point he had to have had all bijuu in his posession (likely while he and Madara were allied). It's completely possible he used them against Madara in some capacity.

http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/404/14
It looks like it was after the foundation of the five great countries. It can't exactly be said when did this happen, though.

[KingOfNight]

Actually he did show you a proof of why we cannot use databooks as legitimate sources of information.

What are you talking about ?

[Hakuteiken]

What are you talking about ?

The databook was your proof that Hiruzen was the strongest of all.
Here, his statement is Hashirama's strength was unparalleled in the Shinobi world, which is also a databook statement, which contradicts the argument above.
If a conflict coexists within a source of information, how can we say it's reliable anymore?

[KingOfNight]

The databook was your proof that Hiruzen was the strongest of all.
Here, his statement is Hashirama's strength was unparalleled in the Shinobi world, which is also a databook statement, which contradicts the argument above.
If a conflict coexists within a source of information, how can we say it's reliable anymore?

We can, since if you can't remember, the exact same statement was made in the Manga. So it's not that the Databook was my only proof (Not to mention the Fanbook). Hiruzen was said to be the strongest Hokage. Hashirama was said to be with no peer in the Shinobi world. Those statement are slightly different from each other, as we already know that Hashi had no rival in his era. It's not like the they directly contradict each other. However, I merely asked for a proof and was presented already, it would be disgraceful for me to cry about something I asked for. That's why I said this argument belonged to him (Rikudou King). So lets avoid getting it started again. However, this still is no reason to assume the Databook is unreliable.

[n0air9x9]

I already addresed this before Madara's Susano is something he could use if he was a normal guy before Rinnegan. His Ultimate Susano was something that Hashirama had to fight and win over it. Tsunade stated that Madara's power (EMS ONLY SUSANO) is leagues about all there power combined. The fact that he is a EDO with all those extra abilities is not really relevant when Madara is showed taking a dump on them with his EMS power alone.

Heh Tsukisage alone stated (before even knowing about Ultimate Susano) that Madara (living EMS one from his fight with Hashirama) can take care of them alone.

Tsuchikage was defeated before.

In the past, Madara + Kyuubi <= Hashirama + Mokuton
Now, Madara + Susanoo perfect => the five Kage (by that time they are already exhausted)
Susanoo perfect = Kyuubi
-> Hashirama + Mokuton > the five Kage. ???????????????????????????

vhile the fact is maybe, Madara lost the battle because the mokuton can use the kyuubi chakra to get stronger, which also implies him some chakra to use. (I guess).
Tsunade herself acknowledge madara's power, but she didn't imagine that he could be that powerful.

I don't think we can use the math to compare their strength anyway. And the five Kage now is not at their best, i mean:
- Kazekage was so young that both Hokage and Tsuchikage can call him "grandson".
- Kazekage and Tsuchikage had just gone through a battle against powerful Kages
- Tsunade spent more than ten years of her life in getting drunk and gambling, most of her skill may have lost. Tsunade also have to protect other Kage..
- Raikage lost his right arm.

[Rikudou King]

P.S I'm not saying anything but where was it said that that Hiruzen and The Anbu were needed to kill the Uchihas ?

During Itachi's flashback about the massacre. Danzo mentions it would require the combined force of him, Sarutobi, and the Anbu. That speaks quite highly of his capabilities, especially when compared to the other Hokages like Minato and Hashirama who showed the skills to wipe out an entire group of ninjas.

[KingOfNight]

During Itachi's flashback about the massacre. Danzo mentions it would require the combined force of him, Sarutobi, and the Anbu. That speaks quite highly of his capabilities, especially when compared to the other Hokages like Minato and Hashirama who showed the skills to wipe out an entire group of ninjas.

Well, he is an old man.

[xXan]

Tsuchikage was defeated before.

In the past, Madara + Kyuubi <= Hashirama + Mokuton
Now, Madara + Susanoo perfect => the five Kage (by that time they are already exhausted)
Susanoo perfect = Kyuubi
-> Hashirama + Mokuton > the five Kage. ???????????????????????????

vhile the fact is maybe, Madara lost the battle because the mokuton can use the kyuubi chakra to get stronger, which also implies him some chakra to use. (I guess).
Tsunade herself acknowledge madara's power, but she didn't imagine that he could be that powerful.

I don't think we can use the math to compare their strength anyway. And the five Kage now is not at their best, i mean:
- Kazekage was so young that both Hokage and Tsuchikage can call him "grandson".
- Kazekage and Tsuchikage had just gone through a battle against powerful Kages
- Tsunade spent more than ten years of her life in getting drunk and gambling, most of her skill may have lost. Tsunade also have to protect other Kage..
- Raikage lost his right arm.

Oh Hashirama > the 5 Kages most defenetly as a direct statemant from Tsunade.

First piece of evidence the 5 Kages are nothing before his real power, ULTIMATE SUSANo, something that he can use with his EMS alone and nothing else. No need for his curent upgrades:

http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/588/16

Then read what Tsunade and Madara states here:
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/589/2

I am going to use the translation posted on this site as from what i know from modes its the better one:

3: ...there's this big a difference between us...? (US like the Kages togeder and Madara)
4: Grandpa fought a guy like this...?
5: I told you already, only Hashirama is capable of stopping me.
6: But he's long gone.

Source:
http://ns1.mangahelpers.com/t/molokidan/releases/35644

From this alone and its Hashirama>EMS Madara> 5 Kages >>>>Minato (even Saved Sarutobi's arse vs Kurama when Sarutobi was on his knees)>>> somewhere is Sarutobi around here.

Then i have Tsukisage claiming that Madara can solo the situation and has no need of special tactics and what not even before he knew about this perfect Susano:
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/467/8

Obito of coruse used the answer about his wounds, he did not even denied Madara can solo there buts:
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/467/9

"During their fight, Hashirama gained control of nine tails. And - the sentence is linked here with a conjunction - in order to better aid him..." Now this could be the factor that resulted in a victory. I believe we are all aware that all their previous clashes didn't end in victory for both of them. It couldn't have gone this way, or this must have been some sort of table-turner. Until we don't see the actual fight, this scan is not worth dismissing.

Yes it is linked but its not addresed at what or if during the fight. Think about it how would Mito sealing the best inside herself would allow her to help him? Its not like the ability and skill to use a tail best pops out of nowhere... Kurama was ALREADY under Hashirama's control so what is the point of sealing it again? Why would that be a help to Hashirama?

The way i see it by sealing it inside herself she helped him in the long run with the balance of power and what not.

[n0air9x9]

Oh Hashirama > the 5 Kages most defenetly as a direct statemant from Tsunade.

First piece of evidence the 5 Kages are nothing before his real power, ULTIMATE SUSANo, something that he can use with his EMS alone and nothing else. No need for his curent upgrades:

http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/588/16

Then read what Tsunade and Madara states here:
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/589/2

I am going to use the translation posted on this site as from what i know from modes its the better one:

3: ...there's this big a difference between us...? (US like the Kages togeder and Madara)
4: Grandpa fought a guy like this...?
5: I told you already, only Hashirama is capable of stopping me.
6: But he's long gone.

Source:
http://ns1.mangahelpers.com/t/molokidan/releases/35644

From this alone and its Hashirama>EMS Madara> 5 Kages >>>>Minato (even Saved Sarutobi's arse vs Kurama when Sarutobi was on his knees)>>> somewhere is Sarutobi around here.

Then i have Tsukisage claiming that Madara can solo the situation and has no need of special tactics and what not even before he knew about this perfect Susano:
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/467/8

Obito of coruse used the answer about his wounds, he did not even denied Madara can solo there buts:
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/467/9



Yes it is linked but its not addresed at what or if during the fight. Think about it how would Mito sealing the best inside herself would allow her to help him? Its not like the ability and skill to use a tail best pops out of nowhere... Kurama was ALREADY under Hashirama's control so what is the point of sealing it again? Why would that be a help to Hashirama?

The way i see it by sealing it inside herself she helped him in the long run with the balance of power and what not

.

Madara himself admitted this "They're worthy the tittle of 5 kage". But on the outside he talked Like a boss. Well, he is anyway.

Tsunade don't know that well about her grandfather. I mean, she took great pride in her own strength and never attempts her grandpa power. She probably didn't even know about his use of medical technique. So if his defeated opponent defeats her now, she would, by default, acknowledge her grandfather was able to deFeat everything madara can do.

I already commented this: when Madara use perfect Susanoo, all of the five Kage are exhausted. They are the five Kage, five people presents the strength of each village. They were pushed to the limit, but their enimy was still outstrength them. So if they felt terrified and O.O, that's OK. If they still had many chakra to fight him, they wouldn't be so afraid of him, like Tsuchikage even dared to challenge Madara.

madara said this "only Bijuu comprable to this giant thing". In the past, everyone knows that he used the kyuubi, but there is no information of him using that susanoo. Maybe because he knew about this technique, but also know the Kyuubi can use instead of it, so he use Kurama. But the result is Hashirama Mokuton used that chakra of the Kurama to grow stronger, bind the beast harder? That maybe is something Madara didn't expect.

Now, i need you to read this carefully.
1 ) Madara alive + Kyuubi (when his strength has limitation) <~ hashirama + Mokuton
Reason: Hashirama Mokuton can absorb the beast chakra
2 ) Madara edo + per susanoo (infinite strength) > the 5 kage (none of them was at the best)\
Reason: the five Kage is exhausted, and absolutely outstrength by EDO madara
3) No information of Madara using Susanoo in the fight against Hashirama. He said this "anyone saw Susanoo died" (grammar fault I guess ). So if he could ever pulled that thing out, Hashirama would have been dead.
4) Susanoo ~ Kyuubi ; The kyuubi < Mokuton
-> in your opinion, Hashirama CAN beat all the five Kage because he beat Madara even with Kyuubi.
in my opinion, iF hashirama were alive now, young and strong, EDo Madara Tested him for a while, then use the giant statue to fight, it would be dead end to Hashirama.

So i don't think we should USE MATH to compare their power anyway.

People don't really have to defeat the mokuton to defeat Hashirama. though is tough but You just need to stay alive until you can do the final blow to him.

[xXan]

@n0air9x9

No Madara made it clear the Kages where nothing before this power.Tsunade confirmed it and direcly asked if Hashirama had to fight this power that was making a big diference in power between the 2 sides, then Madara of course confirmed it. Tsunade said nothing about chakra exhaustion. If Madara would have started with that Susano it would have made no diference. 3 Kages working togeder could barely get trough his small Susano.. Nothing they could muster would do any type of damage to that huge mass of chakra. At best Oonoki would be the only one with any damage potential to put a mark on that Susano. Aside for him the rest where completly irrelevant.

Even Tsukisage himself stated MADARA (not EDO) can take them. Even before noticing the huge Susano.

Also the links i presented made clear Hashirama HAD to fight that Susano. Madara himself confirmed it.

2 ) Madara edo + per susanoo (infinite strength) > the 5 kage (none of them was at the best)\
Reason: the five Kage is exhausted, and absolutely outstrength by EDO madara

No. If Madara pops Susano he would stomp them like bugs. He does not need EDO power for them.

3) No information of Madara using Susanoo in the fight against Hashirama. He said this "anyone saw Susanoo died" (grammar fault I guess ). So if he could ever pulled that thing out, Hashirama would have been dead.

Tsunade ASKED and Madara CONFIRMED. I posted you the links above.

> in your opinion, Hashirama CAN beat all the five Kage because he beat Madara even with Kyuubi.
in my opinion, iF hashirama were alive now, young and strong, EDo Madara Tested him for a while, then use the giant statue to fight, it would be dead end to Hashirama.

No i think he can beat them because Madara almost 1 shoot them with polen and because Tsunade is curently in half. A man that can take out Madara with that huge Susano that Tsunade HERSELF claimed to be above there combined power should have no problem takin down the kages.

Madara the entire fight was making fun of them, wanting to brake there morale and what not. He was not serious. Remember he even asked them if they whant the clones to use Susano. Hashirama could just pop an army of wood clones + forest + polen and decimate them.

Hashirama won a fight vs EMS Madara with his Susano + Kurama. There is no way the Kages can compare to this. Even the chakra capacity and his ability to regenerate and its out of this world. Aside from Oonoki blasting the entire area nobody from the Kage team can do shit to him.

EDIT: Dan himself after finding out the Kages are fighting Madara states how NOBODY but Hashirama can stop Madara. He did not even knew about rinnegan and wood element. Its Hashirama>EMS Madara> 5 Kages.

[n0air9x9]

Big jutsu meaning stronger? The third Hokage used nothing but basics ninja fighting skill to fight Orochimaru + hashirama + tobirama, but he still won, though his soul was sealed.

Why on earth would Tsunade complain about her "chakra exhaustion", that's too obvious to see. and when you're exhausted, everyone knows what will happen.

Madara didn;'t confirm Hashirama can defeat Susanoo, and he didn;t confirm if he had use such thing in the fight against 1st Hokage.
In the past, hashirama did defeat Madara + Kyuubi, now Kyuubi ~ susanoo, so Madara was like " yeah, that man can still stop me like he did before, because my big susanoo ~ Kyuubi".

Defeat such thing, creat a slippy ground, and it just fall down when it moves.. ) No big deal. you just need to take down the one who use it, not the technique itself. The third called this "fight like a shinobi, not comparing jutsu" (sr, my english is...)

So now, a human, can do this: "create 25 mokuton clones + susanoo. Then use an enormous chakra to bring out the giant thing". How can you tell that he could do the same thing when he is alive. That power may belong to EMS, but it need chakra from EDO or rinengan. I don't know.

Using the Kyuubi is just as strong, less chakra wasted, while Susanoo needs A LOT MORE chakra. So of coure he chose that Kyuubi instead of that Susanoo, and then that Kyuubi gives chakra to the first to fight on too.

He praised Hashirama so much because he was defeated by him, and Hashirama power did serve him well.

about Tsunade, she can only be in half when the byakugo wears off. vhen that technique still activated, Madara couldn't do anything to her, though he claimed that he would kill that woman first. If he use mokuton to kill her, with that size, her body should have been crushed, not cutted in half. It's like he stabbed her with his susanoo blade.

[xXan]

@n0air9x9

Big jutsu meaning stronger? The third Hokage used nothing but basics ninja fighting skill to fight Orochimaru + hashirama + tobirama, but he still won, though his soul was sealed.

Mindless puppets using only a fragment of the power showed now in the manga. He "won" by using a very hax seal. He did not exacly win himself. He sold his soul to the devil in exchange for sealing those 2.

Why on earth would Tsunade complain about her "chakra exhaustion", that's too obvious to see. and when you're exhausted, everyone knows what will happen.

At that point she made clear it was about the diference in power. Even Madara said about how the Kages where nothing to this power. He did not say now that you are exahusted bla bla bla, same for Tsunade.

Madara didn;'t confirm Hashirama can defeat Susanoo, and he didn;t confirm if he had use such thing in the fight against 1st Hokage.
In the past, hashirama did defeat Madara + Kyuubi, now Kyuubi ~ susanoo, so Madara was like " yeah, that man can still stop me like he did before, because my big susanoo ~ Kyuubi".

Please read the link that i provided. ITS STATED THERE. Tsunade asks and Madara is confirming. Then you are claiming that is a lie or what? What you are telling me Madara does not know if he did or did not use Susano vs Hashirama?

Defeat such thing, creat a slippy ground, and it just fall down when it moves.. ) No big deal. you just need to take down the one who use it, not the technique itself. The third called this "fight like a shinobi, not comparing jutsu" (sr, my english is...)

First i am bad at spelling myself. That is not important. JMan himself claimed that its not the number of techs but the will to never give up. Not that it helped him to defeat Nagato now did it? Overwhelming power > whatever else.

So now, a human, can do this: "create 25 mokuton clones + susanoo. Then use an enormous chakra to bring out the giant thing". How can you tell that he could do the same thing when he is alive. That power may belong to EMS, but it need chakra from EDO or rinengan. I don't know.

I was refering to Hashirama as Madara does not have clones normaly,I did not say Susano clones as Hashirama does not have Susano. BUT considering Hashirama's MASIVE and i mean MASIVE chakra pool and life force creating 25 clones would be childs play.

In real life when he does not whant to play around he pops Perfect Susano and steps on them...

Using the Kyuubi is just as strong, less chakra wasted, while Susanoo needs A LOT MORE chakra. So of coure he chose that Kyuubi instead of that Susanoo, and then that Kyuubi gives chakra to the first to fight on too.

No he used both.

He praised Hashirama so much because he was defeated by him, and Hashirama power did serve him well.

Exacly Hashirama defeated under his own power Madara + Kurama + super Susano. He was the only one in history to stend up to Hashirama so what do you expect if not that.

about Tsunade, she can only be in half when the byakugo wears off. vhen that technique still activated, Madara couldn't do anything to her, though he claimed that he would kill that woman first. If he use mokuton to kill her, with that size, her body should have been crushed, not cutted in half. It's like he stabbed her with his susanoo blade.

Em no. Tsunade can be cut in how many pieces you whant. Its just that as long as her jutsu is active she can heal from damage. Also you don;t know the angle and how exacly she was hit. Getting ripped in half is more then possible. Look at Wolverine, he got snaped in half by the Hulk (ultimate version) and Logan is just about Tsunade, actualy its more (in regen).

[Hakuteiken]

So now, a human, can do this: "create 25 mokuton clones + susanoo. Then use an enormous chakra to bring out the giant thing". How can you tell that he could do the same thing when he is alive. That power may belong to EMS, but it need chakra from EDO or rinengan. I don't know.

There isn't a need to have infinite chakra to use Perfect Susano'o, or Kyuubi, or whatever we may throw in.
But the time he can keep that Perfect Susano'o will be limited. Then again, Madara is trying to become the Juubi's Jinchuuriki. Someone lacking vast chakra reserves cannot hope to do such a thing.
Obviously, he could be inferior to Hashirama in chakra department, but he is well above what is displayed by the current strong people in the manga.

http://www.mangareader.net/93-55672-...apter-503.html
It's interesting that Minato found sealing all of Kyuubi's chakra inside his body physically impossible. Perhaps that will be Madara's undoing. Trying to seal the Juubi inside himself, he would die along the way after he has a living body.
So, if he considers himself even remotely up for the task, then he must have superior chakra reserves to 99% Shinobi in the history.